Fulgo

[Jski.6180]

This condi dmg like effect that is base off of power seems like a realty good effect for the air atument on ele spear 2. It needs to be on ele core kit in some way i suggest putting it on lighting rod where you get a few sec of Fulgo on ppl when you hard cc them.

The main reason why i want to see this effect on lighting rod is not the dmg but its cloud animations that appears above the targets head during the condi effect. If that effect would show up even during stealth we will see an real counter stealth effect that is not just an revel. An effect that give you an ideal where some one is but with out simply striping stealth.

As things stand the cloud animations dose not show up on stealth players but if we could it would be a realty good an needed effect for the ele class to have soft counter stealth.

[Funky.4861]

What's the point of stealthing if you have a cloud over your head? Might as well make it a big red arrow.

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

What's the point of stealthing if you have a cloud over your head? Might as well make it a big red arrow.

You cant be tarted that a kind of big deal. Its also something a lot of ppl forget about and kind of messes up stealth balancing as its more then just "you cant see me" effect its an you "cant use target base skills on me and you cant see me."

[Funky.4861]

Targetting is less important if you have lots of aoe skills (which you should, in competitive modes). Also, does you cloud allow them to be targetted or just show you where they are?

[Jski.6180]

3 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

Targetting is less important if you have lots of aoe skills (which you should, in competitive modes). Also, does you cloud allow them to be targetted or just show you where they are?

I mean if you have aoe skills that you can spam your still able to use them on your self timing the duration of stealth. The non spam-able aoe skills don't realty work well vs fast moving targets.

The cloud show up above ppl head during the the condi like type of fulgo not the apply of fulgo it self. As things work now it dose not show up vs stealth ppl but it realty should and be an over all core effect for the ele class. It cant crit and is purly power base dmg. The fulgo apply effect it self is on a very small aoe for spear air 2 (i want it on other effects too namily lighting rod so if you apply an cc to an target you apply 3 sec or so of fulgo .) You must land the effect to make it work and i am asking it not to be an revieal so you can still get the effect of stealth and it start to become an skill issues more or less for both players or an soft counter to stealth. We have a few soft counter to stealth staff earth 4 will "pop up" if any one crosses the line.

I love the ideal of an attk type that cant crit but dose more dmg base off of power not condi dmg. Also the ability to see cloud above ppl getting hit with the effect would go a long way to having an use if it always showed up or its mostly pointless unless your running with players name off and effectively making it harder for your self to play the game.

[DivineDreaming.7206]

it's basically smoke bomb from world of warcraft rogue, cept in this game, you don't need to target people like in wow.

[Funky.4861]

How on earth does it 'become a skill issue' if you know exactly where someone is? You see the cloud and throw down your aoe's; job done, dead thief/mesmer. It doesn't matter if they have access to all the stealth traits in the game if everyone and their mothers can see where they are. This is a terrible idea- especially as it has no counterplay and cannot be removed.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

How on earth does it 'become a skill issue' if you know exactly where someone is? You see the cloud and throw down your aoe's; job done, dead thief/mesmer. It doesn't matter if they have access to all the stealth traits in the game if everyone and their mothers can see where they are. This is a terrible idea- especially as it has no counterplay and cannot be removed.

Well, it would be basically Revealed but weaker (since you still don't have a target and thus you're relying on effects that don't need a target). One of the common complaints about stealth is that even with a few sources of Revealed around it has little counterplay in practice.

[Jski.6180]

4 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

How on earth does it 'become a skill issue' if you know exactly where someone is? You see the cloud and throw down your aoe's; job done, dead thief/mesmer. It doesn't matter if they have access to all the stealth traits in the game if everyone and their mothers can see where they are. This is a terrible idea- especially as it has no counterplay and cannot be removed.

It would be like registering hits vs stealth players when your already in-combat. Not seeing the numbers pop up on the screen but in the log but a lot more friendly for an player. It takes way too much skill for an game like this to have an soft counter to stealth and unless you want more perma "you cant stealth" witch has no real counter play but say i think 1 skill (Shadow Meld)  your never going to have real balancing for the stealth effect. Unless you think only dead eye is an viable stealth class over core dardevil and specter (or any thing with stealth out side of the thf class too hehe).

Stealth is not the only means of def thf and mez in a lot of ways its the weakest version of def these classes have.

Over all its silly that "hit effects" don't show up on stealth players as they are hitting something and the attks them self are not from the thf/mez or even eng so why should they not be viable. Air overload dose not show up yet lighting orb dose. Do reflected shots show up from the stealth class? There just a lot of inconsistently for what stealth animations eating. So much so its more on the lines of being at random then anything else.

Another example of soft counter stealth that works atm is Whirl combos the aggressive ones will start to fire off if there any target to hit. So if there an stealth player you will see the random shots start to become less random but this is only an suggestion and a LOT of ppl do not know this making it just not an real usable counter for most ppl who play the game.

Edited July 6 by Jski.6180
I keep forgeting to say somthing about whirl soft conter to stealth

[Funky.4861]

The problem is that fulgo has no counter- it's not a condition so it can't be cleansed. The stealthed char just has to wait it out. If they have a cloud over their heads they might as well just /gg as everyone can throw down an aoe at the cloud and that's one thief going to respawn.

 

No, this is a terrible idea.

[draxynnic.3719]

It lasts for four seconds, not much longer than most revealed sources, which also cannot be removed (the deadeye elite was nerfed). It can be reapplied more often, but it would also be a softer counter than revealed since the thief can still stealth to get stealth attacks off, and being stealthed still means that the enemy can only hit the thief with AoEs rather than single-target effects that are usually more effective at downing a single target. Thieves are also usually among the best kiters, so even with a cloud over their head, hitting a thief taking evasive action with melee attacks or persistent AoEs is going to be easier said than done. 

[Jski.6180]

Its an question of where to put the fulgo effects i like the ideal of lighting rod as it seems to fit but there also room on skill for air atument as there a lot of emptily air skills on weapons with no dmg on them at all. Gust, Wind storm, Blinding flash and Updraft would be a good set of emptily air skills on wepons that could use fulgo for 2-3 sec.

[igmolicious.5986]

On 7/7/2024 at 11:57 AM, Funky.4861 said:

The problem is that fulgo has no counter- it's not a condition so it can't be cleansed. The stealthed char just has to wait it out. If they have a cloud over their heads they might as well just /gg as everyone can throw down an aoe at the cloud and that's one thief going to respawn.

 

No, this is a terrible idea.

tbf it's less punishing than a reveal, since you still can't use skills that require a target.

Edited July 12 by igmolicious.5986

[Jeyzer.1605]

18 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

The problem is that fulgo has no counter- it's not a condition so it can't be cleansed.

How is that different from any other reveal skill? Sick'em is an enemy targeted skill, with instant cast time at 2000 range, that reveals for 6s. Same for Engineer's Lock On / Invisible Analysis. What's the thief counterplay to this? Those skills can't be cleansed either.

And as the guy above said, unlike a reveal, this doesn't let you target them so you can only punish them with ground targeted hits. I think it's a lot more balanced than full on reveals.

Edited July 12 by Jeyzer.1605

[Funky.4861]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:07 AM, Jeyzer.1605 said:

How is that different from any other reveal skill? Sick'em is an enemy targeted skill, with instant cast time at 2000 range, that reveals for 6s. Same for Engineer's Lock On / Invisible Analysis. What's the thief counterplay to this? Those skills can't be cleansed either.

And as the guy above said, unlike a reveal, this doesn't let you target them so you can only punish them with ground targeted hits. I think it's a lot more balanced than full on reveals.

Those skills just reveal the thief- they don't put a massive target over his head for everyone to see and aim at. It's much easier for the thief to hide their hitbox/LoS when revealed vs trying to hide a cloud over their head. It doesn't matter if they have access to stealth skills and traits when there is a marker revealing their position. It also doesn't matter if you can target them or not- just aim at the cloud and you will hit them. In a boonblob this is also just more visual clutter, as well as showing everyone where the thief is peeling off to.

[Jski.6180]

17 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

Those skills just reveal the thief- they don't put a massive target over his head for everyone to see and aim at. It's much easier for the thief to hide their hitbox/LoS when revealed vs trying to hide a cloud over their head. It doesn't matter if they have access to stealth skills and traits when there is a marker revealing their position. It also doesn't matter if you can target them or not- just aim at the cloud and you will hit them. In a boonblob this is also just more visual clutter, as well as showing everyone where the thief is peeling off to.

Massive? Have you seen the effect? It will be very hard to see in most big fights and there is an delay on the hit. At best it will only give you an ideal if your very much looking for it and in small number fights.

We need more animations to show where thf and or stealth players are the fact things seem to get eaten by stealth make it a lot stronger then it needs to be for the game as its spam-able and comes with other effects.

Are you suggesting hiding effects though stealth is better for visual clutter that just silly and bad faith argument.

To the main point Fulgo needs to be on more effects for air as for what ever reason a lot of air skills are missing real effects other then just there cc and for an dmg base atument just having an cc is pointless for 4 and 5 skills. By adding an effect like Fulgo you can get a cc and some dmg over time (though traits or though the skill it self applying it) with out making the cc effect do high burst.

 

[Funky.4861]

They can put fulgo on every skill in every attunement for all i care as long as players can stealth through it.

The counterplay to stealth is aoe's and (more rarely) revealed.

Stealth is a thiefs' active defence mechanism, much like guardians aegis/blocks, necro shroud, mesmer clones etc etc. If you take away their stealth, what defences do they have left? If they spec for mobility/evades they won't be killing anyone soon and can be largely ignored. Let the thieves have their stealth and learn to counter it, unless you want to strip away active defence from every class?

[draxynnic.3719]

On 7/31/2024 at 8:00 AM, Funky.4861 said:

Those skills just reveal the thief- they don't put a massive target over his head for everyone to see and aim at. It's much easier for the thief to hide their hitbox/LoS when revealed vs trying to hide a cloud over their head. It doesn't matter if they have access to stealth skills and traits when there is a marker revealing their position. It also doesn't matter if you can target them or not- just aim at the cloud and you will hit them. In a boonblob this is also just more visual clutter, as well as showing everyone where the thief is peeling off to.

There are skills that explicitly cannot be used without a target, including most non-profectile ranged attacks, and many non-AoE ranged attacks are still pretty hard to target blindly (action cam would work, but running action cam in competitive has other downsides). The attacker would still be likely to resort to spamming AoEs, it'd just remove the guesswork.