September 10th Nerfs

[WingSwipe.3084]

9 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

You know what, I hope this happens, not because it's good thing, or something I want(I love playing my warriors), but it's been a one step forward, two steps back, and settling for less, in a cycle of constant degradation for th class. I'm tired, Warrior itself still hasn't been compensated correctly from the damage/CC damage nerfs in 2020 patch, had to stay with a whole nearly unusable broken traitline for years before its fix . Now we're advocating for removal  and burying of a spec, ripping aways its tools because people  think this is why the other aspects of the class are bad or is taking the power budget.  We're just giving up instead of trying to lift up the aspects of the class that should've been updated or helped. People got a taste of an overtuned spear, which just outright makes Rifle obsolete because it does everything better/better designed, some actual high low effort damage and go off piggy backing onto shifting the blame to Spb for the woes. Like making really dumb statements(I'm sorry it is) like 100B doing more damage in practice than Spearmarshal's Support meanwhile one has you completely melee animation locked requires set up, and the other is a ranged cast, which you're not locked to any animation lock/root, and can cast it behind you while easily hitting in the range of 8k-11k depending on the target. 

People want a worse Spb? Here's some changes Anet. 

-Fix FC CD bug(deserved)
-Spb Burst skills consume 2 Bars of Adrenaline instead of 1. 
-Loss Aversion - give it a 5s ICD for the adrenaline gain
-Attacker's Insight from 35/45 -> 15 per stat stack
-Magebane Tether - remove the 10% damage mod, increase the cooldown from 8s to 15s. (Gaining might and applying reveal + pull is enough)
-Dispelling Force - Rework this to only remove 1 boon, on a burst skill prioritizing might, 10s ICD.
-Pure Sight - 3% crit damage increase -> 7% against boonless foes.
-No Escape - 0.5s Immobilize on daze and stun, 5s ICD. 
Guard Counter - 3s->2s Protection, you only gain protection when you hit something with FC. 

 

We never advocated for the outright giga nerf of SPB as an elite spec, we just wanted for the power budget to be shared equally for the rest of the profession. SPB has a monopoly on the PvP gameplay for warrior because its just that much better then anything else warrior has to offer.

I have actively played berserker for 2-3 years in PvP and have VERY rarely touched SPB. Yet the first time in years that I did it was an immediate and noticeable improvement in all aspects of gameplay. It was to the point where I just had to say outright to the people I was playing with:
"I would get worse as a player if I kept playing this instead of anything else warrior has to offer"  

Its so much stronger then Core, Zerker and BSW combined that its laughable, just going into alcoholic father stance (Rampage) using strengh/defence SPB makes you a complete teamfight breaker. The damage boosts alone for just doing warrior things like actually landing your burst and having access to a 6 second CD full counter via bugged traits and relic of rivers made me infinitely more survivable in fights and much more of a threat.

Thats why we advocated for SPB to get nerfed instead of weapons, because we saw that the elite spec was super strong and that good weapons (Which all of warrior needs desperately) would get gutted from people abusing the elite spec.

Seems Anet has given no kittens about our opinions though and just nuked spear and staff becasue SPB was using them too much, ruining any warrior play style from using them.

Spear was fine, it needed a 10 damage nerf to Spearmarshal and Harriers Toss tops.
Staff was fine, they just needed to lower base healing and tune up healing power scaling.
Instead we got neither, we got a patch that ruined the function of spearmarshal and Swipe + a gutting of the healing staff does in PvP in general, killing/dramatically handicapping the support warrior playstyle.

And SPB is still strong enough to get complaints right after the weapons that were supposed to be the issue got giga nerfed. ALMOST LIKE THE PROBLEM IS SPB LIKE WE TOLD EVERYONE.

[WingSwipe.3084]

Also, @Lucentfir.7430 please put some spacing in the text. Makes it much easier to read longer segments.

Thanks ahead of time.

[Lucentfir.7430]

2 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

We never advocated for the outright giga nerf of SPB as an elite spec, we just wanted for the power budget to be shared equally for the rest of the profession. SPB has a monopoly on the PvP gameplay for warrior because its just that much better then anything else warrior has to offer.

I have actively played berserker for 2-3 years in PvP and have VERY rarely touched SPB. Yet the first time in years that I did it was an immediate and noticeable improvement in all aspects of gameplay. It was to the point where I just had to say outright to the people I was playing with:
"I would get worse as a player if I kept playing this instead of anything else warrior has to offer"  

Its so much stronger then Core, Zerker and BSW combined that its laughable, just going into alcoholic father stance (Rampage) using strengh/defence SPB makes you a complete teamfight breaker. The damage boosts alone for just doing warrior things like actually landing your burst and having access to a 6 second CD full counter via bugged traits and relic of rivers made me infinitely more survivable in fights and much more of a threat.

Thats why we advocated for SPB to get nerfed instead of weapons, because we saw that the elite spec was super strong and that good weapons (Which all of warrior needs desperately) would get gutted from people abusing the elite spec.

Seems Anet has given no kittens about our opinions though and just nuked spear and staff becasue SPB was using them too much, ruining any warrior play style from using them.

Spear was fine, it needed a 10 damage nerf to Spearmarshal and Harriers Toss tops.
Staff was fine, they just needed to lower base healing and tune up healing power scaling.
Instead we got neither, we got a patch that ruined the function of spearmarshal and Swipe + a gutting of the healing staff does in PvP in general, killing/dramatically handicapping the support warrior playstyle.

And SPB is still strong enough to get complaints right after the weapons that were supposed to be the issue got giga nerfed. ALMOST LIKE THE PROBLEM IS SPB LIKE WE TOLD EVERYONE.

Perspective from both WvW/PvP

Nah you might as well just giga nerf SPB, and lose the option because it's the most complained about spec no matter what it does. People can't faceroll it like Core Warrior and Berserker so it's problematic. Like I said before I'm getting tired of the class just getting stripped down and defanged to appease panicking reactionary whine to try and hold something  new that isn't tuned right. And  overall just having less options to work with. Tired of just trying to keep the vision that the entirety of the warrior class deserves better at its core like it had back in the day compared to w.e it we have now. 

SPB is one of the few warrior specs that actually has ever felt rewarding for playing it right playing against all the other things that are stacked up against it., it has the tools that are needed to play the way it wants because Boon removal and consistent boon removal at that allows you to make openings in the mitigation in classes like guardian, ele, etc that you would otherwise have to brute force(Which is why Power Zerker always takes a back seat, and feels awful when you run into any sort of pocket support).

Recalling back to a time.. I remember Berserker getting reworked multiple times and still not being able to function the way people want it to...I miss when Bloody Roar used to do an AoE taunt and do upwards of like 3k-6k AoE around you on Berserk Activation, and now all it does in trade for being instant cast is 10% increased damage with some Resistance. Arc Divider 3 spin, down to 1. I take mental damage every time in WvW when I get into a shield bash fight with the sentry, mine having a big wind up and dealing 7 damage but the sentry goes off quickly and hits me for 150x the damage mine does. Yet somehow the reason why the spec isn't allowed to be good in the way people want to play it is somehow SPB's fault that the other aspects of warrior get worse overtime.

Acting as if SPB was solely responsible for all the changes to spear. If you look at it too why would nerf the damageTier 1->3 Burst damage from Harrier's Toss if it was fine on Core Warrior...it doesn't adhere to the rules of projectile reflect like Gunflame/Killshot without Signet of Might? Spear Swipe, a baseline slightly ranged Unblockable/Evade/Reflect/CD Reduction Projectile CC isn't going to get whined about?(Shouldn't be a projectile that can be reflected back at you). Spearmarshal's support could of just used the Marked damage shaved to 10% but I understand why they did it, so it falls in line with skills like Guardian Focus 4 in counterplay/functionality in their balance aspirations. 

SPB isn't always the problem I'd like to point out, because was it not too long ago that we just came out of a meta where both Condi Zerker and Bladesworn (I had to drop SPB for both Condi zerker and Bladesworn for ATs because it was outright stronger). Both were played at high tier, being equally complained about and called unhealthy for the game, until they inevitably got their nerfs. But at this point it's w.e for me, advocate w.e. Anet should really just take some of the posted suggestions and GIGA nerf Spb. I don't want to deal with having hopium anymore. It's not as complex as Ele, Engi, Rev,  and should/deserves to be beaten out. I'm sure Flowki would be ecstatic to hear.   

Edited September 13 by Lucentfir.7430

[WingSwipe.3084]

31 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Perspective from both WvW/PvP

Nah you might as well just giga nerf SPB, and lose the option because it's the most complained about spec no matter what it does. People can't faceroll it like Core Warrior and Berserker so it's problematic. Like I said before I'm getting tired of the class just getting stripped down and defanged to appease panicking reactionary whine to try and hold something  new that isn't tuned right. And  overall just having less options to work with. Tired of just trying to keep the vision that the entirety of the warrior class deserves better at its core like it had back in the day compared to w.e it we have now. 

SPB is one of the few warrior specs that actually has ever felt rewarding for playing it right playing against all the other things that are stacked up against it., it has the tools that are needed to play the way it wants because Boon removal and consistent boon removal at that allows you to make openings in the mitigation in classes like guardian, ele, etc that you would otherwise have to brute force(Which is why Power Zerker always takes a back seat, and feels awful when you run into any sort of pocket support).

Recalling back to a time.. I remember Berserker getting reworked multiple times and still not being able to function the way people want it to...I miss when Bloody Roar used to do an AoE taunt and do upwards of like 3k-6k AoE around you on Berserk Activation, and now all it does in trade for being instant cast is 10% increased damage with some Resistance. Arc Divider 3 spin, down to 1. I take mental damage every time in WvW when I get into a shield bash fight with the sentry, mine having a big wind up and dealing 7 damage but the sentry goes off quickly and hits me for 150x the damage mine does. Yet somehow the reason why the spec isn't allowed to be good in the way people want to play it is somehow SPB's fault that the other aspects of warrior get worse overtime.

Acting as if SPB was solely responsible for all the changes to spear. If you look at it too why would nerf the damageTier 1->3 Burst damage from Harrier's Toss if it was fine on Core Warrior...it doesn't adhere to the rules of projectile reflect like Gunflame/Killshot without Signet of Might? Spear Swipe, a baseline slightly ranged Unblockable/Evade/Reflect/CD Reduction Projectile CC isn't going to get whined about?(Shouldn't be a projectile that can be reflected back at you). Spearmarshal's support could of just used the Marked damage shaved to 10% but I understand why they did it, so it falls in line with skills like Guardian Focus 4 in counterplay/functionality in their balance aspirations. 

SPB isn't always the problem I'd like to point out, because was it not too long ago that we just came out of a meta where both Condi Zerker and Bladesworn (I had to drop SPB for both Condi zerker and Bladesworn for ATs because it was outright stronger). Both were played at high tier, being equally complained about and called unhealthy for the game, until they inevitably got their nerfs. But at this point it's w.e for me, advocate w.e. Anet should really just take some of the posted suggestions and GIGA nerf Spb. I don't want to deal with having hopium anymore. It's not as complex as Ele, Engi, Rev,  and should/deserves to be beaten out. I'm sure Flowki would be ecstatic to hear.   

First off, thank you for actually creating separation in the text. Really helps me read.

Secondly, SPB has been responsible for a lot of the kittenry that Warrior has gone through recently. I agree that all of warrior deserves to be better but IMO this is a situation where they really cant buff anything since SPB is going to pick it up and run with it.

Also, Anet messed up on the condi zerker nerfs, they just needed to remove one stack of confusion from Skullgrinder and it would have solved the entire situation, instead they hard nerfed zerker survivability.

BSW was overtuned to hell frankly but the nerfs it got litteraly removed it from any viable competitive play. Im pretty sure its the only elite spec in the game that has got butchered so bad that its not even a viable playstyle in PvP and WvW.

We'll just have to see what the balance preview entails but im with you on the "Out of copium" train.

[WingSwipe.3084]

Also, please dont mention Flowki here. My blood pressure spikes harder then a spear willbenders damage when he brings up the "More buttons = I win" argument.

[Lucentfir.7430]

5 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

First off, thank you for actually creating separation in the text. Really helps me read.

Secondly, SPB has been responsible for a lot of the kittenry that Warrior has gone through recently. I agree that all of warrior deserves to be better but IMO this is a situation where they really cant buff anything since SPB is going to pick it up and run with it.

Also, Anet messed up on the condi zerker nerfs, they just needed to remove one stack of confusion from Skullgrinder and it would have solved the entire situation, instead they hard nerfed zerker survivability.

BSW was overtuned to hell frankly but the nerfs it got litteraly removed it from any viable competitive play. Im pretty sure its the only elite spec in the game that has got butchered so bad that its not even a viable playstyle in PvP and WvW.

We'll just have to see what the balance preview entails but im with you on the "Out of copium" train.

No problem. 

Plenty can be done to warrior without  Spb being really  affected. It's a matter of Anet willing to do things or implement ideas, like for core warrior they could touch the core burst adrenaline level tiers spent actually had some significant improvements. Like some ideas here for instance. 

-Arcing Slice
This was mainly just get increased fury for every level, I think the execute damage threshold (When below 50%) should be going up with every tier 
T1 - No Changes/ Execute Damage(50%), Fury 
T2 - Execute Damage (65% Threshold ), Fury
T3 - Execute Damage(80% Threshold), Fury, Quickness(2s)

-Eviscerate 
Keep the same concept of the damage getting higher per tier.
T1 - Might increased from 1 stack 3 stacks, 
T2 - 4 Might, Execute damage (Below 50%) 
T3 - 5 Might, Execute Damage (Below 66%), Higher Execute Damage (Below 33%), Unblockable

-Kill shot
One of the most outdated skills in the game if I'm going to be honest, but if it's to keep the jank of the long cast time, it should benefit from burst updates. 
General - Projectile Speed Increased
T1 - Damage, Range -1500
T2 - Damage, Range -1800, Execute Damage (Below 50%)
T3 - Damage, Range - 1800 , Execute Damage(Below 50%), Increased Damage against High Health foes (Above 80%)
 Things like this. 


For power Berserker specifically it  could use some conditional damage mods in its traitlines like having you deal an additional half % or 1% increased damage per stack of vulnerability on the target, attached to Fatal Frenzy, just something to help ease plow through people with a lot of mitigation. Honestly hitting a primal burst skills should proc Burst of Aggression while you're Berserk. 

Condi Zerker was one of those fights where it was probably just as unfun to fight against next to what people demonize SPB about, it has a range option and  had on demand 2s EP proc's through Savage Instinct entering and leaving Berserk. AH+Dead or Alive procing off condi damage, it was highly sustainable and beat out Def/Spb pretty regularly through attrition. It was also one of the builds I played when i saw a Bladesworn on the other team, Substitute a utility to take Signet of Might, since they'll freely eat a Skullgrinder when charging up Dragon Trigger. since Aegis won't do anything. 

Bladesworn has no middle ground tbh because its design is just really bad for it to be balanced. The best I could say without giving it back it's stun is give it back the extra might stack on Unyielding Dragon since that was kinda the thing that made it hit hard with the combo from axe pistol. It had the ability to pretty much perma stall side fights with perma reflect and defender relic healing unless it was against the beam Spectre. 

 

44 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Also, please dont mention Flowki here. My blood pressure spikes harder then a spear willbenders damage when he brings up the "More buttons = I win" argument.

Everyone loves having these discussion. I'm too withered to argue against it like I used to, first it was Obtena, and now it's Flowki. 

[cryorion.9532]

9 hours ago, Zoid.2568 said:

Spear was not overpowered. You don't know a thing about power and balance.

At least I wasn't spreading misinformation about greatsword builds being better than spear in PvE... 💀

Spear was definitely overperforming, but the nerfs were too harsh, Spearmarshal dmg nerf should have been smaller and utility changes to Spearmarshal and Spear Swipe shouldn't have happened.

In any case, let's say spear wasn't overpowered at all. What are you going to do about it? Write an informative post that explains everything perfectly just so it can be ignored because Anet "balance" team has different vision (if any vision at all)?

Edited September 13 by cryorion.9532