Please add a blast finisher to the Shadow Sap rework

[Micah.3789]

(Instanced PvE perspective) First of all, I'm happy we're finally getting a Shadow Sap rework. It's probably one of the biggest pain points for support thief, but there are still some pretty grievous ones left. Namely, the extensive amount of support traits that rely on stealthing allies. With no reliable way to proc these traits, the support thief kit feels half-hatched and incomplete. A blast finisher that can be paired with smoke fields like pistol's Black Powder would remediate this almost entirely. As the only exclusively supportive ground targeted AoE weapon skill in thief's entire kit, the reworked Shadow Sap is the perfect place to put it.

For reference, here are all the traits I'm referring to that generate support effects when stealthing allies: Heal | Cleanse | Protection | Barrier

Some may be thinking this could be too powerful for a potentially spammable skill, but these traits have built-in limitations being bound to the stealth/revealed cycle. Meaning, they can't even be applied more than once every 3-4s max. Besides that, the smoke field requirement makes this combo costly enough to be spam prohibitive, while still breathing some new life into these mostly unutilized traits.

EDIT: After discussing it in the comments, I'd like to add that a flip skill on Shadow Sap that provides AoE stealth or a blast finisher would effectively address the same problem but possibly be easier to balance.

Edited September 23 by Micah.3789

[kash.9213]

Group stealthing with pistol 5 and one of the Shadow Shroud blasts is mostly reliable, but then it's using up everything we've been building up and you kind of can't use Consume Shadows if you stealth that way all of the time. 

I think at this point with the direction Anet is taking with new weapon kits, we'd probably get some kind of combo to have to use before another Field and Finisher option that can happen on a single kit. 

[Micah.3789]

2 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Group stealthing with pistol 5 and one of the Shadow Shroud blasts is mostly reliable, but then it's using up everything we've been building up and you kind of can't use Consume Shadows if you stealth that way all of the time. 

For one, that's exclusive to specter. There's also no ambush attack in shroud, so the personal stealth is wasted. Not to mention, you can only do this once per loop on an alac specter, which could be upwards of 10s. At least it's something, but it's not really a suitable option for the purposes I've mentioned.

8 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I think at this point with the direction Anet is taking with new weapon kits, we'd probably get some kind of combo to have to use before another Field and Finisher option that can happen on a single kit. 

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Lots of weapons, new and old, have fields and finishers in the same kit. What do you mean by "some kind of combo"?

[kash.9213]

11 minutes ago, Micah.3789 said:

For one, that's exclusive to specter. There's also no ambush attack in shroud, so the personal stealth is wasted. Not to mention, you can only do this once per loop on an alac specter, which could be upwards of 10s. At least it's something, but it's not really a suitable option for the purposes I've mentioned.

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Lots of weapons, new and old, have fields and finishers in the same kit. What do you mean by "some kind of combo"?

The reason Spear, a new weapon type that is more focused on combo choices, was nerfed nearly out of the gate because stealth upkeep was too easily maintained and they didn't give it a Field and Finisher option to begin with.

Can you fix the links on Cleanse and Barrier because I think those actually are exclusive to Specter. 

I'm for the idea but I'm just not sure Anet will give another avenue to Stealth with pistol 5 with that already being problematic in pvp modes. 

Edited September 19 by kash.9213

[Micah.3789]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

The reason Spear, a new weapon type that is more focused on combo choices, was nerfed nearly out of the gate because stealth upkeep was too easily maintained and they didn't give it a Field and Finisher option to begin with.

Spear has a sequence that could cost as little as 4 initiative and apply 3s of stealth without touching a target. You haven't explained how this is related at all to my suggestion of a 9 initiative combo to apply group stealth. Besides, that's a competitive mode issue exclusively and I'm specifically talking about PvE support thief.

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

Can you fix the links on Cleanse and Barrier because I think those actually are exclusive to Specter. 

Should work now. Only the barrier is specter exclusive.

[PaulPottwal.7239]

I wish they would step away from stealthing allies to support them and put all that stuff on sharing Dark Auras with allies. Specter wells are dark fields and the shroud has finishers. It would be easy to implement 

[nopoet.2960]

1 hour ago, PaulPottwal.7239 said:

I wish they would step away from stealthing allies to support them and put all that stuff on sharing Dark Auras with allies. Specter wells are dark fields and the shroud has finishers. It would be easy to implement 

This is an interesting idea.  Stealth really only appears once in the Specter tree on Panaku's Ambition.  It would be a small edit... "Gain barrier when you strike foes with a stealth attack. When you apply stealth or dark aura to allies you also grant them barrier."  I suppose you can make a similar change to Cover of Shadows... "Gain protection when you enter or exit stealth or gain dark aura."

It kind of feels appropriate.

[nopoet.2960]

7 minutes ago, nopoet.2960 said:

This is an interesting idea.  Stealth really only appears once in the Specter tree on Panaku's Ambition.  It would be a small edit... "Gain barrier when you strike foes with a stealth attack. When you apply stealth or dark aura to allies you also grant them barrier."  I suppose you can make a similar change to Cover of Shadows... "Gain protection when you enter or exit stealth or gain dark aura."

It kind of feels appropriate.

Wait, wait... blasting a dark field blinds.  This wouldn't work.  You have to leap through a dark field to get the aura. 

[PaulPottwal.7239]

5 minutes ago, nopoet.2960 said:

Wait, wait... blasting a dark field blinds.  This wouldn't work.  You have to leap through a dark field to get the aura.

 

Dawn's Repose is a leap finisher 

[Micah.3789]

3 hours ago, PaulPottwal.7239 said:

I wish they would step away from stealthing allies to support them and put all that stuff on sharing Dark Auras with allies. Specter wells are dark fields and the shroud has finishers. It would be easy to implement 

While it would be easy enough to change the traits, the only source of dark aura is dependent on specific utilities that only one thief Espec even has. Even then, the application is limited and personal only.

2 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

When you apply stealth or dark aura to allies you also grant them barrier.

I like the idea of allowing both stealth and dark aura to proc all relevant traits, but sources would still be severely lacking. 

Regardless of future direction, there's an opportunity right now to make these support traits mostly functional and relevant with only the addition of a blast finisher to a skill that's already being reworked. That's a lot of positive change for very little effort, while still being balanced.

6 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I'm for the idea but I'm just not sure Anet will give another avenue to Stealth with pistol 5 with that already being problematic in pvp modes. 

I don't think anyone would even use this in competitive modes except on a healer. It's objectively worse than the combos already available since it would be on a purely supportive skill. There's basically no risk of this being abused or oppressive.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Personally I think having 2 blast finishers (and 1 leap finisher) in shroud that you can combo with both before/after shroud is more than sufficient. I play support Specter basically every day I play the game and I have never felt deprived of blast finishers or an ability to grant group stealth. Shroud has a short enough cooldown that makes stealth blasting frequent enough, and if you are caught with your pants down really needing to stealth allies while shroud is on cooldown, you have Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge as utility options. Adding a blast finisher to scepter 2 will just overbloat what it will offer post-patch IMO. I do think these on-stealth trait interactions should be encouraged for support, but they already are very strong in competitive modes, and in PvE I think that stealth affecting others' DPS rotations is more the issue that sets it back than anything. 

 

[nopoet.2960]

4 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

While it would be easy enough to change the traits, the only source of dark aura is dependent on specific utilities that only one thief Espec even has. Even then, the application is limited and personal only.

I got you fam...

• Shallow Grave -  Gain dark aura when shadow shroud is removed by enemy damage. Transfer conditions to an enemy when targeting them with Siphon. Remove conditions from you and your ally when targeting them with Siphon.
• Dark Sentry - Finishing combo fields additionally grant you dark aura.  Apply Rot Wallow Venom to allies you grant barrier to. Outgoing healing to allies is increased.
• Amplified Siphoning - Gain dark aura and increased shadow force when hitting a foe with Siphon. Grant dark aura and increased barrier when targeting an ally.
• Panaku's Ambition - Gain barrier when you strike foes with a stealth attack. When you apply stealth or dark aura to allies you also grant them barrier.
• Hungering Darkness - When you gain dark aura nearby allies also gain dark aura.  While in shroud, transfer conditions from your tethered ally and cleanse conditions from yourself. Each condition removed in this fashion heals a percentage of your base health and grants your tethered ally barrier.

Then in Shadow Arts:

• Cover of Shadow - Gain protection when you enter or exit stealth or gain dark aura.
• Rending Shade - Steal boons from enemies you strike with stealth attacks. Striking a boonless foe with a stealth attack grants dark aura and inflicts fear on nearby foes.

And in Accro:

• Hard to Catch - Gain endurance and dark aura when you shadowstep

Seems like this could work.  What do ya'll think?

[kash.9213]

16 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Spear has a sequence that could cost as little as 4 initiative and apply 3s of stealth without touching a target. You haven't explained how this is related at all to my suggestion of a 9 initiative combo to apply group stealth. Besides, that's a competitive mode issue exclusively and I'm specifically talking about PvE support thief.

Should work now. Only the barrier is specter exclusive.

Maybe you've missed the countless WvW and pvp forum posts about how problematic pistol 5 is when it's easy to gain stealth with it often. I'm saying Anet might want to move away from that kind of stealth and more towards something like spear has. Doesn't matter what I think of your idea, just suggesting a direction they may be thinking about. 

I'd be cool with it and I agree that a support Specter needs to be able to make those trait points worth it.

Edited September 20 by kash.9213

[Micah.3789]

12 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Personally I think having 2 blast finishers (and 1 leap finisher) in shroud that you can combo with both before/after shroud is more than sufficient. I play support Specter basically every day I play the game and I have never felt deprived of blast finishers or an ability to grant group stealth. Shroud has a short enough cooldown that makes stealth blasting frequent enough, and if you are caught with your pants down really needing to stealth allies while shroud is on cooldown, you have Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge as utility options.

This seems to be a PvP/WvW specter biased perspective. In PvE, stealth is mostly just a vehicle to applying these support traits, so it's not about volume but interval timing (since they can only apply every 3s max). With shroud finishers, only specter can apply these traits and still only once per full shroud loop (upwards of 10s or more). That also binds the timing of these procs to shroud where the thief itself has no ambush skill to utilize and can't benefit from the healing. My suggestion offers a costly, but timely option for all support thief builds to proc ally stealth support traits.

12 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Adding a blast finisher to scepter 2 will just overbloat what it will offer post-patch IMO. I do think these on-stealth trait interactions should be encouraged for support, but they already are very strong in competitive modes, and in PvE I think that stealth affecting others' DPS rotations is more the issue that sets it back than anything. 

I don't agree with the bloat comment at all, especially compared to other class trait interactions. Stealth is strong is competitive modes, not the related traits. This wouldn't add more stealth, just a different avenue that's entirely support focused. I do agree about the issue with stealth potentially affecting other player's rotations though. All of this would be solved with changes to stealth mechanics, but it doesn't make sense to just leave all these dead traits with no way to effectively utilize them for group support.

8 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

I got you fam [...]

Seems like this could work.  What do ya'll think?

This is pretty far off topic. You'd probably be better served by starting your own thread with your suggestions.

2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Maybe you've missed the countless WvW and pvp forum posts about how problematic pistol 5 is when it's easy to gain stealth with it often. I'm saying Anet might want to move away from that kind of stealth and more towards something like spear has. Doesn't matter what I think of your idea, just suggesting a direction they may be thinking about. 

I'd be cool with it and I agree that a support Specter needs to be able to make those trait points worth it.

I'm familiar with the complaints about D/P, but while I agree that Heartseeker is problematic, Anet hasn't changed anything. HS is oppressive because it's so aggressive and mobile, while Shadow Sap would not be. That said, maybe a flip skill on Shadow Sap that just applies AoE stealth would be more appropriate? 

Edited September 20 by Micah.3789

[kash.9213]

47 minutes ago, Micah.3789 said:

That said, maybe a flip skill on Shadow Sap that just applies AoE stealth would be more appropriate? 

No, I'd like to have the blast and for other reasons along with group stealth, like the blast heal bonus Relic on my healing template. I just don't know if Anet would want to go old school when they're trying to go new school more and they might be iffy about a Blast option on either form of that kit or any of the kits in general. We still have to go to Short bow for Initiative blasts. 

Edited September 20 by kash.9213

[nopoet.2960]

4 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

This is pretty far off topic. You'd probably be better served by starting your own thread with your suggestions.

Maybe, maybe not.  I think we are aimed at the same targets, Panaku's Ambition and Cover of Shadow.  We both want to make triggering them easier.  We are in agreement.  My path of getting there is just much less direct.  On "topic," I think adding a blast or even a flip over to shadow sap would be too much.  It will already damage, might, barrier, protection with no cool down.  Maybe just add stealth to Well of Silence if you want a simple solution.

[Micah.3789]

7 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

I think adding a blast or even a flip over to shadow sap would be too much.  It will already damage, might, barrier, protection with no cool down.

Having no CD isn't particularly relevant considering the damage will likely be meager and boons don't really benefit from being spammed. I do, however, agree that adding a blast would be pretty powerful, but it could easily be balanced with an initiative cost increase. 

7 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

I think we are aimed at the same targets, Panaku's Ambition and Cover of Shadow.  We both want to make triggering them easier.  We are in agreement.  My path of getting there is just much less direct.

Perhaps a solution that incorporates both of our ideas could be both balanced and more direct. A flip skill on Shadow Sap would be a great place to add reliable AoE dark aura. Then the relevant traits could be changed to grant their effects when 'gaining dark aura and entering or exiting stealth.' For balance, Panaku's Ambition should probably be given the same treatment as the other traits and grant half of its barrier value when entering or exiting stealth (same total). This alone would be a huge step in the right direction, but still be easier to implement. Some additional sources of dark aura could be added later if desired.

11 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I'd like to have the blast and for other reasons along with group stealth, like the blast heal bonus Relic on my healing template.

How about a blast finisher on a flip skill?

Something like: If you hit an enemy with Shadow Sap, you gain access to Shadow Discharge. It could costs maybe 1 or 2 initiative and apply both an AoE dark aura and have a blast finisher.

It would maintain most of the support potential we want (and need) without adding more spammable stealth. In fact, the requirement of hitting an enemy first would make this very difficult to abuse in competitive modes, while still being reliable enough elsewhere. It would also increase the initiative cost and overall cast time slightly to keep things balanced.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

I'd be happy with both options. That said I don't see the blast finisher on sceptre 2 happening, I have a pretty nasty condi burst build for WvW roaming using Sc/P and shortbow and basically the only thing that holds it back from being truly obnoxious is the lack of easy stealth access. While I'd be happy if shadow sap was a blast, I don't imagine anyone else would be lol. 

A simpler solution might be to give spectre a trait that procs a blast finisher on weapon swap, much like the traits that apply conditions on swap that rev and necro have. That way you would have nice synergy with relic of karakosa (heals on blasting a field) and you don't change the weapon or other specs themselves, meaning less potentially broken interactions when running scepter on other elite specs in WvW. 

[kash.9213]

6 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

I'd be happy with both options. That said I don't see the blast finisher on sceptre 2 happening, I have a pretty nasty condi burst build for WvW roaming using Sc/P and shortbow and basically the only thing that holds it back from being truly obnoxious is the lack of easy stealth access. While I'd be happy if shadow sap was a blast, I don't imagine anyone else would be lol. 

A simpler solution might be to give spectre a trait that procs a blast finisher on weapon swap, much like the traits that apply conditions on swap that rev and necro have. That way you would have nice synergy with relic of karakosa (heals on blasting a field) and you don't change the weapon or other specs themselves, meaning less potentially broken interactions when running scepter on other elite specs in WvW. 

Feels like that should have already been a thing with how a good deal of support sits under group Stealth and Shadow Shroud is often the way to open that up. I guess they wanted us to spend our entire budget to do one thing to one or two people that's comparable to a tick or pulse is other stuff popping off in most maps.