This community has lost the authority to ask for soulbeast buffs.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Professor Sprout.1560" said:I'm confused. What are you objecting to exactly? Are you objecting specifically to focused discussions of the Rock Gazelle, or are you making a more general point? If the former then I'm puzzled because (going by thread subject lines on the front page of the ranger subforum) I'm not seeing any threads specifically about that point (can you point me to a recent sample of the "Hundreds of complaints"?). If it's a more general point then I'm equally puzzled because I'm not sure what it is you want.Are you trying to suggest you'd like to see trait change suggestions rather than pet change suggestions? If that's the case I think it's fair to say there have been plenty of suggestions and discussions of potential trait changes particularly during the beta. Also remember that a number of the ranger/soulbeast pet changes that have been requested and/or delivered so far have been bug fixes, e.g. the Pack Alpha changes to the new PoF pets; indeed the major changes made to the Rock Gazelle were apparently made to close an outlier case that arose due to unexpected behaviour.Or are you asking to see more "non-meta pet" builds discussed on this forum? If so you'll probably have to define which pets are meta - right now my PvE power build uses

Smokescale & Pig/Siamoth

and (within certain use cases) I would argue that it's good. Am I allowed to make suggestions?Or is it something else? I'd like to engage constructively here, but I'm struggling.

They spent more time designing the spec than any other, but they aren't spending more time balancing it. It's not our job to help them but if we do nothing this will take forever.

Where did you get the idea that soulbeast took more time than any other? Any other Ranger spec? Any other Class Spec in this expansion?They didn't know what to do. Did you see the media they released before the expansion came out---they were at a loss for words with barely anything to say about it.If ANYTHING, they spent less time on this than any other.

I don't know where you come off claiming people need to speak up. The devs of this game are not listening.

Time and time again the Ranger community has wrote detailed explanations of bugs on traits, skills, utilities and pets.

Nothing else needs to be said that hasn't already been said.

/Ignoring this thread

I don't know if they spent more time, but definitely they need to spend more time for Soulbeast than any other classes, because of our pets and this new mechanics/merge/transformation. Other classes don't have so many different skills and chooses.And like I and you said, yes , Anet don't listening, why ? Because I think none of dev play Ranger, they play something else ... warrior, mesmer, thiefs etc ... and maybe they starting to play necro too, because they buffed pretty well the Scourge.

From what I understand of the beta interviews it took more time. Remember, Soulbeast got like 4 fewer skills than Weaver but was way more technically demanding.

Also, I do think they play Ranger. I don't think any of them main Ranger. And if you really want to explore all the issues on Ranger you really should main it. Getting helpful feedback from the community is probably more useful than expecting a Dev to start playing Ranger in their free time so they notice more stuff.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Remember, Soulbeast got like 4 fewer skills than Weaver but was way more technically demanding.

Actually you can say Soulbeast got almost 15 x 2 (F1 and F2) different skills + 5 (F3) all terestrial and another 3 x 2 (F1 and F2 ) from water pets. So basically ranger got another 41 new skills. These skills should work in the new mechanic of Soulbeast. That's why I said we , ranger got more skills than others.

[AnariiUK.7409]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:They need to look at interactions across and within modes. It's a lot of work.

I disagree that PC offers barely noticeably damage. It adds around ~450 dps. You might not think that's a lot but here are the current benchmarks. https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Soulbeast and renegade have cemented roles as offensive supports for condi and power subgroups. They bring less damage than condi daredevil/firebrand on small hitboxes but make up for it with utility and buffs to group dps.

You lose 450 dps and ranger hits the tier of core condi engie. Which is still much better than scourge but gives people more reasons to demand you play Druid.

450 DPS would require over 2.3 poison applications per second, which is definitely on the high side. Even if it is that high, you're talking about 1.2% contribution to our overall damage, which is miniscule compared to DPS traits like sharpened edges and quickdraw. Players are experimenting with pets, but myself and others all reached a similar conclusion that Lynx is currently the best pet to use for single target, with Bristleback and Iboga are decent for groups of mobs. If you can demonstrate that this poison interaction with predators cunning somehow makes poison based pets stronger, there are loads of people that would be interested to hear it.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:If everything is so fixed the feedback would be less helpful.

There is nothing to disagree on. It's math.

There aren't infinite combinations. Just a lot.

Edit: including alternate skins there are 1485 possible ways to slot two pets.

Math isn't always the best way to look at something. The current PvE "meta" condi soulbeast build isn't the highest possible DPS, but it's far more realistic and simple to play than the alternative which makes use of Krait runes to squeeze out slightly more damage.

I think most PvE Soulbeast players would agree that we're in a decent spot at the moment, we're not the strongest class anywhere but we bring strong supportive options and can slot in spirits for single-druid runs.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

Another prove that Anet don't care at all about ranger is the fact they gave us a dagger which is the worst main weapon ever. Also the condi build (the one who should be together with the dagger) is the worst build for us, no one use it in sPVP or WVW. I understand that it is hard to make it work 41 new skills, and it is hard to make all pets to work properly in synergy with ranger in beastmode, but it is so hard to make a single weapon to work ? Ok, let's say is hard because of the new mechanic (it is not, but let's say ...) , still after 4 months they didn't repaired one single weapon ?!

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Remember, Soulbeast got like 4 fewer skills than Weaver but was way more technically demanding.

Actually you can say Soulbeast got almost 15 x 2 (F1 and F2) different skills + 5 (F3) all terestrial and another 3 x 2 (F1 and F2 ) from water pets. So basically ranger got another 41 new skills. These skills should work in the new mechanic of Soulbeast. That's why I said we , ranger got more skills than others.

I counted that. Weaver still got more skills. However, I just went back to double check and found I hadn't included the auto chains for Soulbeast. So they actually got only 1 less skill than Weaver.

@AnariiUK.7409 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:They need to look at interactions across and within modes. It's a lot of work.

I disagree that PC offers barely noticeably damage. It adds around ~450 dps. You might not think that's a lot but here are the current benchmarks.

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Soulbeast and renegade have cemented roles as offensive supports for condi and power subgroups. They bring less damage than condi daredevil/firebrand on small hitboxes but make up for it with utility and buffs to group dps.

You lose 450 dps and ranger hits the tier of core condi engie. Which is still much better than scourge but gives people more reasons to demand you play Druid.

450 DPS would require over 2.3 poison applications

per second

, which is definitely on the high side. Even if it is that high, you're talking about 1.2% contribution to our overall damage, which is miniscule compared to DPS traits like sharpened edges and quickdraw. Players are experimenting with pets, but myself and others all reached a similar conclusion that Lynx is currently the best pet to use for single target, with Bristleback and Iboga are decent for groups of mobs. If you can demonstrate that this poison interaction with predators cunning somehow makes poison based pets stronger, there are loads of people that would be interested to hear it.

450 was the mean. It all depends on how many autos you get in and how many projectile finishers you land. I feel comfortable saying its more than 400 dps.

It's also not competing with sharpened edges or quickdraw. Soulbeast is competing with Renegade, Daredevil, Mirage and Firebrand. And its a pretty tight race.

As for checking the interactions with raids. I am not familiar with the mode but I'll do my best and get back to you. (I assume you are using the snowcrows/meta battle stance share Soulbeast)

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:If everything is so fixed the feedback would be less helpful.

There is nothing to disagree on. It's math.

There aren't infinite combinations. Just a lot.

Edit: including alternate skins there are 1485 possible ways to slot two pets.

Math isn't always the best way to look at something. The current PvE "meta" condi soulbeast build isn't the highest possible DPS, but it's far more realistic and simple to play than the alternative which makes use of Krait runes to squeeze out slightly more damage.

I should have chosen my words more carefully.

The interactions of cooldowns, cast/channel time, rng procs, duration, opportunity costs to slot, resource requirements, etc. cannot change unless the game breaks or is updated. There are a finite numbers of combinations. Either you calculated it correctly or you didn't.

You can also check simplicity, realism, usefulness etc in game. This is more subjective but it's still math. Qualitative testing is a part of statistics. If people disagree it's with your interpretations or procedure, they shouldn't get super angry.

I highly doubt anyone discussing Krait runes was calling each other bad names. And if Anet read the discussion it would be super helpful to read.

I want the community to get away from feedback that is easily disproven, or too feels based to be easily implemented.

I think most PvE Soulbeast players would agree that we're in a decent spot at the moment, we're not the strongest class anywhere but we bring strong supportive options and can slot in spirits for single-druid runs.

I may be wrong but Soulbeast appears to be the strongest overall condi build when you combine personal dps + buffs to group dps + utility

It seems to be picked often when the Renegade doesn't synergize and/or there are primarily condi subgroups.

[AnariiUK.7409]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I want the community to get away from feedback that is easily disproven, or too feels based to be easily implemented.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Yeah I agree there's a difference between well thought out feedback and the usual "We need buffs!" that's everywhere on all class forums.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

I think most PvE Soulbeast players would agree that we're in a decent spot at the moment, we're not the strongest class anywhere but we bring strong supportive options and can slot in spirits for single-druid runs.

I may be wrong but Soulbeast appears to be the strongest overall condi build when you combine personal dps + buffs to group dps + utility

It seems to be picked often when the Renegade doesn't synergize and/or there are primarily condi subgroups.

It's a good option for less experienced groups as a condi-dps that's nice and easy to play, it's also one of the best choices for doing Sabetha cannons. Aside from that, very few organised groups are using Soulbeast anymore. It's not weak, it's just that other classes (Mainly Mirage/Weaver) are disproportionately strong against certain fights and Holosmith and Renegade synergise so well together.

[InsaneQR.7412]

You know that pets are an integral part of ranger and thus soulbeast right?They should improve heavy on the pets especially the core ones because they lack usability and would give soulbeast huge diversity.All the traits need improvements too especially the swapping soulbeast mode traits and some improvements on traits that have a good core concept but are lackluster.Dagger and grifgon stance could need a buff too and than soulbeast could really shine with all builds.

[FrouFrou.4958]

@AEFA.9035 said:

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:I think there is some misconception that the amount of feedback is related to the amount of work done for 'fixes/balance'. how are people making that conclusion? Some assumption that Anet doesn't want negative feedback on the forum, so they fix things faster? Not sure that's sound.

I think the real misconception is how to give feedback on an issue.

• Good feedback is related to the amount of work done because it is constructive. For example, a very clear and reproducible bug report make fixing a bug take less time.
• Weak feedback is not related to the amount of work done. It clearly identifies a problem but does not provide anything constructive towards its solution.
• Bad feedback is anything that does not easily identify a problem. Now anet has to decipher the request AND test it.

This forum has a lot of weak and bad feedback that is drowning out any good. People who refuse to explore the pros and cons of their suggestion and think Anet has the time to test it.

I am sorry if my comment will upset you ... but I think many of us bought this game to play it and not to spend hours/days/weeks/months to do theorycrafting. If Anet don't have time to check all 50 terrestrial pets and another 21 water pets is his problem. I will not spend from my time to check all these pets if they properly work or not. If you are one of those guys who can play 24/24 then be my guest and test them, I (and ranger community) will be grateful to you till the end of this game. From my little time I have for GW2 , I already spent and said a lot of my opinion/observation about ranger. And also most of players from this forum did. Don't ask us to do Anet job. Maybe they put from the beginning too many pets in this game with too many different abilities. Maybe they should take off some of them and let only 10 ... 5 for power and 5 for condition. I am civil engineer, ofc if population of this planet want better houses, roads, bridges ... they can help me and other engineers , by spending their free time, making theorycrafting :D ...

Anyway, you start a little bit too salty in my opinion. I know your intentions are good, but don't blame players for Anet mistakes and bugs. Just focus on your theorycrafting, and ask other players to help you. I think will be better and more productive than argue with ppl.

PS: I just saw that you already made another post. GJ and keep it on like this.

definitely agree on this, I think ANet or balance team is having a hard time, i dont even know how many from the balance team are responsible for ranger? lets think about that for a second. a lot of suggestions in the forums but

in ranger forums specifically, when was the last time we got a response from a dev in one of our post?

they don't even talk about what they're currently looking into or testing, if Dev's would even communicate with us and say

"hey Ranger players we heard you and we're looking into core pets currently and planning on making some changes. How about some feedback guys!"

NOPE!

I think last red post was Gaile (She is not a dev though) saying that the quickness bug on pets is not going to be fixed. Before that... It must have been after PoF launched and rangers were a hot topic in the sPvP sub forums I think, which resulted in fixing/nerfing Gazelle? That's all I can remember, for now anyway.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@AnariiUK.7409 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:I want the community to get away from feedback that is easily disproven, or too feels based to be easily implemented.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Yeah I agree there's a difference between well thought out feedback and the usual "We need buffs!" that's everywhere on all class forums.

Exactly. Feedback should be like bug reports. If your comments aren't easily understood AND extremely constructive then there is no point. You'd just be giving them more work.

We can make posts to flesh out ideas or identify general concerns. But once it becomes talking with Anet we should spoon feed them because they are already overworked and understaffed. I haven't always followed this rule but when I look back at my posts. I'm prouder of requests like this https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/8345/a-compromise-lower-the-base-duration-stacks-on-converting-boons-conditions-in-pvp-wvw than all the times I've @ a Dev to explain my viewpoint on X ruining Y without concrete examples/solutions. And I am especially disappointed in myself and others for requests that don't even explain a viewpoint.

We should be treating Anet employees like politicians.

• Look at X issue is as useful as telling a politician you want better roads but won't pay more taxes.
• It doesn't matter if the roads are bad because of their mismanagement, or that it's job to fulfill the request. You aren't supporting the process.
• It will take years to fix the roads and you can either speed up the process, petition while you wait, or move to a place with better infrastructure.
• I was wrong to tell people to shut up and wait. You wouldn't tell a poor person working three jobs they can't complain about the roads. But they only deserve to be heard, not to receive quicker results than the budget allows, or have additional funding siphoned from equally important projects. They won't close hospitals to fix roads because the community doesn't want more taxes.
• In addition, politicians are human. Even if you can't be a lobbyist, you should focus on well-worded letters, instead of screaming at them online and demanding interviews. They are supposed to be vocal and transparent but they get to chose the format they express themselves.

We already elected Anet for another 2+ years when we bought the expansion. Now it is time for us to be proper lobbyists. Our community is not comprised entirely of poor people working three jobs. And because time=money we can pay more in taxes to Anet.

This isn't our job. But these are our professions.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

I think most PvE Soulbeast players would agree that we're in a decent spot at the moment, we're not the strongest class anywhere but we bring strong supportive options and can slot in spirits for single-druid runs.

I may be wrong but Soulbeast appears to be the strongest overall condi build when you combine personal dps + buffs to group dps + utility

It seems to be picked often when the Renegade doesn't synergize and/or there are primarily condi subgroups.

It's a good option for less experienced groups as a condi-dps that's nice and easy to play, it's also one of the best choices for doing Sabetha cannons. Aside from that, very few organised groups are using Soulbeast anymore. It's not weak, it's just that other classes (Mainly Mirage/Weaver) are disproportionately strong against certain fights and Holosmith and Renegade synergise so well together.

From a marketing standpoint if an Elite spec is not the best at its purpose I have a lot of angry customers. I suspect Chrono/Druid/Berserker will be the best in their forms of support for the lifespan of this game. I assume Herald/Renegade, which are both mismatched hybrid of those support roles, will always be the support for supports. And I am positive Weaver will stay top dps for its playstyle. These things can't change because then there is no point for Elite Specs.

However, Soulbeast and Mirage are not PvE specs. I suspect they will be balanced towards PvP. That being said going off of https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ Soulbeast is also optimal on Vale and Matthias.

My guess is they will nerf Condi Druid in ways that don't affect Heal Druid. Making Soulbeast more neccesary in condi situations. And that the balance patch on the 6th will drop Mirage out of the top tier.