[WvW] All Hail D/P

[bq pd.2148]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.

thats correct most classes cannot, but most classes will also get ganked by the first group they run into, wich you will encounter way more then a try hard deadeye IMO.

[Sojourner.4621]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.

It doesn't even delete rifle, it just makes it different. You can easily max out your malice in a matter of a couple seconds now, and that malice will still stick around until your mark ends or until you spend it on a sneak attack. What it means is that you're probably going to see people running P/P with Rifle on swap, use Unload to fill up malice very very fast with minimal initiative cost, then swap to rifle and go in semi-perma stealth until your shot is lined up the way you want it to be. Or they will stick with rifle and use rifle 3 to fill malice, because with M7 the moment malice is filled you gain 7 initiative so you can afford to burn some getting there.

[Legatus.3608]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.

thats correct most classes cannot, but most classes will also get ganked by the first group they run into, wich you will encounter way more then a try hard deadeye IMO.

I mean sure that's true but it won't make the build less broken and it will get more and more people running it the longer it goes without a fix

[Legatus.3608]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.

It doesn't even delete rifle, it just makes it different. You can easily max out your malice in a matter of a couple seconds now, and that malice will still stick around until your mark ends or until you spend it on a sneak attack. What it means is that you're probably going to see people running P/P with Rifle on swap, use Unload to fill up malice very very fast with minimal initiative cost, then swap to rifle and go in semi-perma stealth until your shot is lined up the way you want it to be. Or they will stick with rifle and use rifle 3 to fill malice, because with M7 the moment malice is filled you gain 7 initiative so you can afford to burn some getting there.

You can only get 2 malice per unload

[Sojourner.4621]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.

It doesn't even delete rifle, it just makes it different. You can easily max out your malice in a matter of a couple seconds now, and that malice will still stick around until your mark ends or until you spend it on a sneak attack. What it means is that you're probably going to see people running P/P with Rifle on swap, use Unload to fill up malice very very fast with minimal initiative cost, then swap to rifle and go in semi-perma stealth until your shot is lined up the way you want it to be. Or they will stick with rifle and use rifle 3 to fill malice, because with M7 the moment malice is filled you gain 7 initiative so you can afford to burn some getting there.

You can only get 2 malice per unload

Yes, but you gain initiative back on full unload, and with a little quickness your unload will still fill malice VERY fast... much faster than ever before. The init refill of Unload makes it by far the cheapest way to fill up your malice stacks if not necessarily the most efficient.

[AfroMetal.5394]

@MUDse.7623 said:i have some very bad news for all our scouts and defenders!

oke this claim i made last night..

@MUDse.7623 said:

• the new silent scope requires to be in combat and uses your evades wich might be an issue if you try to hide in structurers in WvW as you need to use more leaps or use your evades only for stealth both can lead to your death. when already in stealth the old one was better as it was a no animation, no hit stealth with 40% uptime.

but then i figured i actually could use the fact that this trait has no cooldown aside from your dodge wich is endurance regen based. it is enough to use endurance food and rune of the adventurer , then you can permastealth with just dodging.if i do that in an enemy keep to keep low profile and flip it back once i am left alone inside, the only thing my opponents will see is one of their npcs sometimes being dazed from trickery to keep myself in combat. no smokefields no nothing. and i can be 1500 range around that npc somewhere and can change the npc with every new mark ready. good luck getting me out of there then.so you have to gank me at lords if you want to get me out, for now it was possible with enough people pressuring my occasional smokefield to hope that i make a mistake and die, but with that i really dont see how you can force me out of there.only needing rifle for permastealth and no ini for it means i can now use any set on back bar without losing the insane safety. i mean i could use s/d and be actually usefull in groupfights pressuring the supporters ripping their boons, and still could use DJ. maybe a bit weaker one as ill go berserk marauder mix , but as i keep attacking i dont need a 100-0 shot, 50-0 is probably enough :D

OMG, I would love to see a movie where sth close to 10 DE just go mad with "stealthy" dodge rolls for a few minutes inside EB castle, then kill the lord, All accompanied by the "harlem shake" song to complete the meme.

[Legatus.3608]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.

It doesn't even delete rifle, it just makes it different. You can easily max out your malice in a matter of a couple seconds now, and that malice will still stick around until your mark ends or until you spend it on a sneak attack. What it means is that you're probably going to see people running P/P with Rifle on swap, use Unload to fill up malice very very fast with minimal initiative cost, then swap to rifle and go in semi-perma stealth until your shot is lined up the way you want it to be. Or they will stick with rifle and use rifle 3 to fill malice, because with M7 the moment malice is filled you gain 7 initiative so you can afford to burn some getting there.

You can only get 2 malice per unload

Yes, but you gain initiative back on full unload, and with a little quickness your unload will still fill malice VERY fast... much faster than ever before. The init refill of Unload makes it by far the

cheapest

way to fill up your malice stacks if not necessarily the most efficient.

Wellllllllll ok but I think there are better ways. 6 initiative is a lot when a reasonably intelligent opponent will be avoiding at least one of those bullets

[Sojourner.4621]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.

It doesn't even delete rifle, it just makes it different. You can easily max out your malice in a matter of a couple seconds now, and that malice will still stick around until your mark ends or until you spend it on a sneak attack. What it means is that you're probably going to see people running P/P with Rifle on swap, use Unload to fill up malice very very fast with minimal initiative cost, then swap to rifle and go in semi-perma stealth until your shot is lined up the way you want it to be. Or they will stick with rifle and use rifle 3 to fill malice, because with M7 the moment malice is filled you gain 7 initiative so you can afford to burn some getting there.

You can only get 2 malice per unload

Yes, but you gain initiative back on full unload, and with a little quickness your unload will still fill malice VERY fast... much faster than ever before. The init refill of Unload makes it by far the

cheapest

way to fill up your malice stacks if not necessarily the most efficient.

Wellllllllll ok but I think there are better ways. 6 initiative is a lot when a reasonably intelligent opponent will be avoiding at least one of those bullets

It is a lot, not arguing that... but then once again M7 refills your init once you hit max malice stacks. You would also be surprised how often people actually don't avoid any of the unload shots. It's the reason people run P/P thieves in the first place.

[Legatus.3608]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.

It doesn't even delete rifle, it just makes it different. You can easily max out your malice in a matter of a couple seconds now, and that malice will still stick around until your mark ends or until you spend it on a sneak attack. What it means is that you're probably going to see people running P/P with Rifle on swap, use Unload to fill up malice very very fast with minimal initiative cost, then swap to rifle and go in semi-perma stealth until your shot is lined up the way you want it to be. Or they will stick with rifle and use rifle 3 to fill malice, because with M7 the moment malice is filled you gain 7 initiative so you can afford to burn some getting there.

You can only get 2 malice per unload

Yes, but you gain initiative back on full unload, and with a little quickness your unload will still fill malice VERY fast... much faster than ever before. The init refill of Unload makes it by far the

cheapest

way to fill up your malice stacks if not necessarily the most efficient.

Wellllllllll ok but I think there are better ways. 6 initiative is a lot when a reasonably intelligent opponent will be avoiding at least one of those bullets

It is a lot, not arguing that... but then once again M7 refills your init once you hit max malice stacks. You would also be surprised how often people actually don't avoid any of the unload shots. It's the reason people run P/P thieves in the first place.

Oh believe me I'm not surprised at all lol. I've had enough of all the whining in the p/p thread on the pvp forums. I'm wondering how bad the whining is going to be with these changes