[Speculation]: The White Mantle are still around and strong, and this could be why

[CaptainVanguard.4925]

Several interesting sites of lore we have regarding the White Mantle suggest they are not just an army of rebels but potentially an entire culture.

Several noteworthy hints of this include the following:

Season 2: The various mantle badges across the Dry Top/Silver Wastes area scattered around, and the fact Riot Alice in Season 2's start mentioned "friends up north" which could be the ones in the raid, or something else.

Vanillia: The still unfinished bandit bridge in Brisban Wildlands leading to a "yet" unreachable area in game.

The Golden City: While it could be Tarir, it was claimed Tarir was built by the Exalted, not by the Mursaat, which suggests the Mursaat Golden City is elsewhere.

The Raid: In Wing 3 I believe it is there is a dock that leads further north suggesting there are more White Mantle to the North.

Hypothesis: The White Mantle is a culture, possibly like Ascalonians/Krytans at this point they have after 250 years branched off to the north west of the Maguuma Wastes and set up shop somewhere even deeper north. Due to the unusual choice of Roman/Greek names and cultural architecture, it seems likely they are the same people we remembered all those years ago who ruled Kryta in the Jungle with an Iron Fist but may have trancended it into something even bigger and perhaps worse.

The point of this ramble is to imply that there is another human civilsation to the North West of Kryta, somewhere we possibly havent seen yet, that seems very likely at this point due to the constant reffencial presence of the Mantle. It is also worth noting the Xera/Matthias Mantle branch is NOT the Mantle Rebels in Kryta, despite Caudecus claiming to be their leader.

So this leads me to believe there is still more, still yet an undiscovered culture we could meet in the future, and id be intreagued to meet them.

[derd.6413]

doubtfull the withe mantel comes back given that we killed caudacus (their pope basically) and their god and the time balt betrayed them. they'll still exist but they'll be weaker then ever.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"CaptainVanguard.4925" said:Season 2: The various mantle badges across the Dry Top/Silver Wastes area scattered around, and the fact Riot Alice in Season 2's start mentioned "friends up north" which could be the ones in the raid, or something else.It was referring to the Silverwastes forts.

Vanillia: The still unfinished bandit bridge in Brisban Wildlands leading to a "yet" unreachable area in game.Doesn't really suggest leading to bandit/White Mantle hideouts. That area is the Majesty's Rest, and would offer a different route to access Kryta from their Maguuma Wastes strongholds than through battle-torn Kessex Hills.

The Golden City: While it could be Tarir, it was claimed Tarir was built by the Exalted, not by the Mursaat, which suggests the Mursaat Golden City is elsewhere.The city wasn't gold, it was made of alabaster with gold filigree (decorations). This alabaster city has nothing to do with the White Mantle though, and the mursaat are 100% confirmed extinct.

The Raid: In Wing 3 I believe it is there is a dock that leads further north suggesting there are more White Mantle to the North.No, it just indicates that they had a water route for resupplying, safer and easier (baring storms) than traversing the Maguuma Wastes with caravans. They would be able to reach Lake Regent with those ships.

Hypothesis: The White Mantle is a culture, possibly like Ascalonians/Krytans at this point they have after 250 years branched off to the north west of the Maguuma Wastes and set up shop somewhere even deeper north. Due to the unusual choice of Roman/Greek names and cultural architecture, it seems likely they are the same people we remembered all those years ago who ruled Kryta in the Jungle with an Iron Fist but may have trancended it into something even bigger and perhaps worse.

The point of this ramble is to imply that there is another human civilsation to the North West of Kryta, somewhere we possibly havent seen yet, that seems very likely at this point due to the constant reffencial presence of the Mantle. It is also worth noting the Xera/Matthias Mantle branch is NOT the Mantle Rebels in Kryta, despite Caudecus claiming to be their leader.

So this leads me to believe there is still more, still yet an undiscovered culture we could meet in the future, and id be intreagued to meet them.

The problem is that we were explicitly told both in-game and out that the White Mantle and mursaat are gone now, and in Episode 6 we personally saw to destroying the very last fringes of the struggling White Mantle and the very last living mursaat.

It was poorly told, and deserved a few extra episodes to truly depict the regathered might of the White Mantle and their civil war between those following the faith and those following the desire of ruling that began following the events of Out of the Shadows, but that was the large thing that wiped out the White Mantle more than the Commander and Co. Balthazar, disguised as Lazarus, ransacked the White Mantle for their wealth and used that and their manpower to build a base on Draconis Mons, and financed the mercenaries which he dismissed in favor of the Forged. His actions effectively wiped out the fanatical half of the White Mantle, while the non-fanatical half got wiped out at Lake Doric.

Even if the White Mantle had more bases that we've not seen, they'd be deserted by now, having been plundered by Balthazar or redirected to Lake Doric by Caudecus.

[CaptainVanguard.4925]

Id strongly disagree with that assessment, primarily because its based too heavily on grounding what is known and we can also argue that Livia does not know everything.

We have yet to visit the Isles of Janthir, the homeland of the Mursaat, where it is highly possible if not probable there is still some if not alot more of them. As for the sea route, its in a completley seperate lake, it couldnt possibly reach Kryta because of the current location plus the direction it was heading was North, not East.

And north from that position was not the bloodstone fen, which is to the east, but nothing but an endless waste of opportunity.

In short, we can assume that Livia speculates that the white mantle is gone, the mursaat is extinct, but Livia may not have travelled that region yet, or chosen not to for reasons yet unclear.

We even know in Wing 4 there is a White Mantle Prison in the forest that was once headed by Mursaat and Mantle largely abbandoned now. That suggests there is still room for more Mantle shenanigans to the North Western part of the map, in truth, it'd be increadably anti-climactic to kill off one of GW1's most iconic villians in 2.5 episodes of content. Thats why im largely unconvinced they are gone completley, and instead all we did was destroy yet another cell.

Lazarus may indeed be dead, but we never asked the Eye of Janthir if the Mursaat were extinct or if there were others, so we do not truly know. The episode was poorly told though, it left a very odd and unexplained cliffhanger, which is why I suspect we will see them more in the future in order to "give" them a proper farewell, granted, it probably wont be until after Season 4.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I'd say that if the devs stated they're gone... Then they're gone... Hence "both in-game and out". The reason the Eye of Janthir disintegrated was because the last mursaat died. And devs confirmed that the WM are gone due to Balthazar and Lake Doric events.

We couldn't explore the full make, there can be a small river big enough for boats to reach Janthir Bay. And north of Brisnan Wilds is Majesty's Rest. Never said Bloodstone Fen. Majesty's Rest housed the royal tombs of ancient Kryta Kings and Queens back in gw1. Originally there was plans for a map to go there in the core game but like D'Alessio Seaboard and Lake Doric the map got scrapped in early development. Many zone portals one can find throughout the core game is that way in fact.

Also, wing 4 isn't a White Mantle prison. That's a mursaat prison. Unrelated and unknown by the White Mantle. They wouldn't let their savior suffer. That might even be the "alabaster city" Saul found tbh.

[CaptainVanguard.4925]

That would imho be the worst copout in lore history, I dont entirley believe it to be honest, also, while the devs did say that, that was back then, the writers changed hands and the lore can always be written to alter the story in a direction that favours such.

Personally, im tired of dragons, and while Kralk is prolly the first actually good dragon antagonist in the story save Mordremoth (mord was good in build up, but HoT wasnt fun story wise) I still want Dragons to go away so we can focus on new threats and allies.

See... id still argue that theres still good cause to believe the Mursaat/Mantle are still potentially around, if the Isle of Janthir had nothing but empty city and dead Mursaat it'd be an absoleute smack to the face of every lore fan in GW1. Its astronomically impossible that Lazarus is truly the last of his kind due to the nature of the fact they came "to" Kryta from Janthir.

We also know based on their lore history they "hid under the skin of the world" which by this point could clearly indicate they used rift-travel to go to another world while the dragons ravaged Tyria, which is increasingly likely to be true based on recent lore hints.

So again, im not entirley convinced.

[Nikolai.3648]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Also, wing 4 isn't a White Mantle prison. That's a mursaat prison. Unrelated and unknown by the White Mantle. They wouldn't let their savior suffer. That might even be the "alabaster city" Saul found tbh.

Except the description of the city that Saul found does not match up with the prison. Don’t forget that the Mursaat, as most other races, most likely had a normal life too, including cities to live in. My best guess would be that Saul stumbled upon one of the Mursaat Portals around Tyria and ended up around Janthir or the Woodland Cascades.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I'd say that if the devs stated they're gone... Then they're gone... Hence "both in-game and out". The reason the Eye of Janthir disintegrated was because the last mursaat died. And devs confirmed that the WM are gone due to Balthazar and Lake Doric events.

I don’t think the devs will try to bring the Mursaat back anytime soon. It is a shame that one of the most iconic enemies of the franchise got killed off like that, but the writers are most likely not brave enough to touch them again. Not that it would be impossible. Contrary to popular believe, nothing ingame proves that some Mursaat can’t still be alive. I would even assume that common sense dictates it to assume some Mursaat still got around their races near-extinction.

First the obvious: Who claims that Lazarus is the last of his race and the Mursaat are now extinct after his death? Livia. Maybe even some other humans (eg the remaining White Mantle). Lazarus however never stated to be the last of his kind (Even if he did, he could have been mistaken – as seen with the Forgotten in Elona and Tarir, who actually lost contact with each other and each thought to be the last survivors of their race). The closest he ever got to make such a claim was during The Justiciar's End, in which he states that his brothers are dead. Never did he say however that all his brothers are dead. It makes sense for him in the context of the quest to mention his fellow Mursaat who died during the defense of the Door of Komalie, to show how angry he is at humanity for killing his comrades. We know that he had at least two likely close friends among the victims (Optimus Caliph and Mercia the Smug), justifying his choice of words during the quest.

Now towards the elephant in the room: The eye of Janthir. Yes, it disintegrated. No, this does not verify that Lazarus was the last Mursaat. We simply don’t know enough about the eye to ensure that its end means that the last of the Mursaat is gone from Tyria. It even seemed to be linked especially to Lazarus, following his sealed aspects around. The disintegration is an obvious hint by the devs to trust Livia’s claim, but not a flat-out confirmation. (Regarding any confirmations by devs: I think it should be obvious by now that any proof that is not present in the game has to be be disregarded in an argument about lore.)

Again, I don’t think that they will touch this part of the lore again. I think it is safe to assume we won’t see the Mursaat again in GW2. But if the writers really wanted to get them back, they could still do so without it being strange.

Let´s first take a look at why the other elder races are no longer around. From a writer’s perspective, the Dwarfs, Forgotten, Mursaat, Seers and Jotun were a problem at release. They were potential sources of knowledge about the Elder Dragons true nature that the players should not get their hands on at that time. To erase this problem, they went with different ways: The Seers were already more or less wiped out. The few survivors (it is not even clear how many different seers we actually encounter in GW1) would have not been able to spread the gene pool wide enough to support a healthy new population. The Dwarfs were busy fighting Primordus (we ignore Ogden here because he should have told us many things but did not because of…ahmm…). The Jotun lost their ancient knowledge due to civil wars. This left the Forgotten and Mursaat to deal with. The Forgotten are a strange case: They have no reason to go extinct nor lose their knowledge. The plot is based on the idea that the Forgotten slowly died out, but this makes little sense. It is based on the idea that the old races would stop to multiply. This even makes sense for the Dwarfs as they changed to stone and likely can no longer reproduce - but this never was a problem for the Forgotten. We know that the Forgotten can have children naturally (Yithlis for example) and can reach incredible high ages (The Keeper of Light was around during the first sun). They did not have any natural enemies to endanger them after Abaddon was dealt with. So why exactly did they slowly die out? It makes no sense and I expect to see some survivors in the mists soon, as we now have an ingame model of them (branded, but that can be changed) since POF. And there is no reason why the Mursaat should not also have a safe population somewhere outside of Tyria.

Think about it: Why the hell would a race that is hellbend on outliving their former partners not have an emergency plan? The most logical decision for a race that has the ability to enter a safe realm (become out of phase) would be to establish at least two different homegrounds. One in Tyria and one out of phase to fall back to, in case things go terrible wrong on Tyria. There are no implications that suggest that the realm out of phase would no longer be a safe place for the Mursaat. So why would they be so stupid to abandon a place that proved to be an important shelter during a dragon rise? Sure, reestablishing their influence on Tyria was a logical decision. But why not leave a part of their population out of phase to guarantee that they won’t get wiped out regardless of what happens down on Tyria?

When/If GW3 comes around, I would not be surprised to encounter some Mursaat again, who just waited out of phase for the ideal moment to strike. I mean, Lazarus only turned up because we forced him to appear via a ritual. Any other Mursaat would take a glance at Tyria and see a few Elder Dragons still rampaging around, a former human god burning Elona down and a general state of chaos and the Imbalance of the All (whatever that might exactly be, but that is not up for discussion right now) and go back to sleep. Of course the Mursaat would continue hiding. They did the same during the last Dragons rise. They saw their siblings on Tyria getting slaughtered during the Titan massacre. Their natural reaction was to stay where they were to ensure their race´s survival. The only logical conclusion for them is to lay down for a while, multiply until they have enough people to reestablish their position of power again and wait it out until the problems down on Tyria are dealt with and the survivors weakened enough by their losses to be easy prey.

[Teratus.2859]

The Mursaat lost the vast majority of their race during Gw1.

Our Player characters in Gw1 killed many of them and when the Titan's were unleashed as was foretold in the prophecy they hunted down and eradicated most of them and those who survived were later killed during the Krytan Civil War or were assassinated shortly before it.Lazarus was as far as anyone in the world of Gw1 knew at the time.. the very last of his race.

There could be others out there.. much like the Seers but it's extremely unlikely there are any of them left now.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"CaptainVanguard.4925" said:See... id still argue that theres still good cause to believe the Mursaat/Mantle are still potentially around, if the Isle of Janthir had nothing but empty city and dead Mursaat it'd be an absoleute smack to the face of every lore fan in GW1. Its astronomically impossible that Lazarus is truly the last of his kind due to the nature of the fact they came "to" Kryta from Janthir.

The mursaat were practically wiped out in Prophecies, their military destroyed by the PC and the titans hunting down the remains. This was repeated several times over by different sources. So how is it a smack to the face?

If anything, Eye of the North retconned the extinction of the mursaat with Lazarus, then War in Kryta again with seven more.

Yes, Season 3 handled Lazarus poorly, but not the mursaat's extinction. It's well established that Lazarus was the last mursaat since GW1.

It would, imo, make no sense for any centralized population of mursaat to exist after Khilbron had sent titans to hunt them down via portals. Without a doubt, he would have sent titans to Janthir if the mursaat truly did live there.

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Also, wing 4 isn't a White Mantle prison. That's a mursaat prison. Unrelated and unknown by the White Mantle. They wouldn't let their savior suffer. That might even be the "alabaster city" Saul found tbh.

Except the description of the city that Saul found does not match up with the prison. Don’t forget that the Mursaat, as most other races, most likely had a normal life too, including cities to live in. My best guess would be that Saul stumbled upon one of the Mursaat Portals around Tyria and ended up around Janthir or the Woodland Cascades.

We also only visit a small portion of the structure and after 250 years of decay. So naturally it would not match up, especially since we never see the surface of it to check for "towers reaching the sky". Also, Bastion of the Penitent is in the Woodland Cascades.

And I wasn't trying to say that the prison was the entirety of the city, rather, I was suggesting that the Bastion of the Penitent was part of that city. We know and see that there's more we don't explore, and we don't ever get details of outside the underground prison.

First the obvious: Who claims that Lazarus is the last of his race and the Mursaat are now extinct after his death? Livia. Maybe even some other humans (eg the remaining White Mantle). Lazarus however never stated to be the last of his kind (Even if he did, he could have been mistaken – as seen with the Forgotten in Elona and Tarir, who actually lost contact with each other and each thought to be the last survivors of their race).

Lazarus is stated to be the last by Shining Blade, White Mantle, Seers, a prophecy (so, probably Glint), and even Balthazar who oddly knew far more of the situation than has yet to be explained. So, pretty much everyone claims he's the last mursaat.

And the mursaat are not so cautious as to not show themselves to the White Mantle after near extinction, as we see in War in Kryta. If another survived the 250 years, they would have revealed themselves.

[Nikolai.3648]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The mursaat were practically wiped out in Prophecies, their military destroyed by the PC and the titans hunting down the remains. This was repeated several times over by different sources. So how is it a smack to the face?

If anything, Eye of the North retconned the extinction of the mursaat with Lazarus, then War in Kryta again with seven more.

Yes, Season 3 handled Lazarus poorly, but not the mursaat's extinction. It's well established that Lazarus was the last mursaat since GW1.

The Mursaat are constantly depicted as being close to extinction, yet we have seen survivors every single time. Slaughtered by the Titans? In comes Eye of the North with Lazarus. After that: Mursaat trying to regain control over Kryta. 250 years later: Lazarus comes back. It is by now more like a running theme with them that they turn out of nowhere and try to fuck up the day of the player character. Each time it is suggested the Mursaats are all dead by now and every single time there waits a next one somewhere. There is no solid reason to assume a different outcome this time.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

First the obvious: Who claims that Lazarus is the last of his race and the Mursaat are now extinct after his death? Livia. Maybe even some other humans (eg the remaining White Mantle). Lazarus however never stated to be the last of his kind (Even if he did, he could have been mistaken – as seen with the Forgotten in Elona and Tarir, who actually lost contact with each other and each thought to be the last survivors of their race).

Lazarus is stated to be the last by Shining Blade, White Mantle, Seers, a prophecy (so, probably Glint), and even Balthazar who oddly knew far more of the situation than has yet to be explained. So, pretty much everyone claims he's the last mursaat.

The prophecy is not clear regarding the numbers of the Mursaat at all because it refers to them as a single bird who dies at the end. If the prophecies count every Mursaat as this bird, the suggested timeline would be wrong, as the diabolic gathering is closed off once again after the bird is dead. This diabolic gathering does however refer to either the Titans or Nightfall itself, both happening before we even meet the remaining Mursaat. So nowhere do the prophecies clearly state that this would be the last Mursaat.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And the mursaat are not so cautious as to not show themselves to the White Mantle after near extinction, as we see in War in Kryta. If another survived the 250 years, they would have revealed themselves.

The fact that they even try to rule Kryta again shows that they are not near extinction. Why would the last individuals of this race waste their lifes in an open attack against Salmas forces if not to gain the upper hand again? Look at the Seers: Few individuals left who as a result of their low numbers could only focus on revenge against the Mursaat. But the Mursaat? They tried to regain political influence and reestablish the dominance of their race on Kryta. This would make no sense if they only had a low number of survivors left. If they wanted revenge, there were far easier ways to murder Salma. They wanted to reclaim their place as the secret leaders of Kryta. And this only makes sense if they still had the numbers to support a stabile population after the success in battle they hoped for.

Nothing points against the possibility of a Mursaat population living hidden outside of phase. Keeping a part of the races population permanently safe would benefit the race in cases of emergencies, which the Mursaat feared would happen (they did try their best to stop the Flameseekers after all because they were aware of the danger). It is only logical to ensure that the race will survive a catastrophe that there was a literal prophecy about. They have the means to do it, they have the reasons to do it, so why would they not do it? Everything points at a population of Mursaat hiding out of phase who just need to wait for the ideal moment to make a comeback.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Nikolai.3648" said:The Mursaat are constantly depicted as being close to extinction, yet we have seen survivors every single time. Slaughtered by the Titans? In comes Eye of the North with Lazarus. After that: Mursaat trying to regain control over Kryta. 250 years later: Lazarus comes back. It is by now more like a running theme with them that they turn out of nowhere and try to kitten up the day of the player character. Each time it is suggested the Mursaats are all dead by now and every single time there waits a next one somewhere. There is no solid reason to assume a different outcome this time.

One event a trend does not make. All your examples is just mursaat who survived one extinction event, and were stated to be the sole survivors. There was no repopulation and second extinction event. Even the previous dragonrise was not an extinction event for the mursaat.

There have been two times it has been suggested all mursaat were dead. At the end of Prophecies, and with those survivors' deaths. With no repopulation capabilities, there's no reason to believe they survived. There is no trend.

The prophecy is not clear regarding the numbers of the Mursaat at all because it refers to them as a single bird who dies at the end. If the prophecies count every Mursaat as this bird, the suggested timeline would be wrong, as the diabolic gathering is closed off once again after the bird is dead. This diabolic gathering does however refer to either the Titans or Nightfall itself, both happening before we even meet the remaining Mursaat. So nowhere do the prophecies clearly state that this would be the last Mursaat.

It actually specifically refers to the last mursaat.

Afterward, a gift arrived: the sword we call the Shining Blade. As the last lay dying, the Seers bestowed us their ancient weapon and a duty to destroy the last mursaat, should he ever return.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Shining_Blade_Manual_(complete)

The fact that they even try to rule Kryta again shows that they are not near extinction. Why would the last individuals of this race waste their lifes in an open attack against Salmas forces if not to gain the upper hand again? Look at the Seers: Few individuals left who as a result of their low numbers could only focus on revenge against the Mursaat. But the Mursaat? They tried to regain political influence and reestablish the dominance of their race on Kryta. This would make no sense if they only had a low number of survivors left. If they wanted revenge, there were far easier ways to murder Salma. They wanted to reclaim their place as the secret leaders of Kryta. And this only makes sense if they still had the numbers to support a stabile population after the success in battle they hoped for.

I would hardly argue pressuring those who revere you into mass slaughter to be "trying to regain political influence and reestablish the dominance of their race on Kryta". They were trying to exterminate the enemies that caused the extinction of their race by any means, they turned the White Mantle into questionable morally gray to total black.

Their actions felt less like reclaiming their place as secret leaders of Kryta, and more like hellbent on using any means necessary to wipe out those who caused their race's extinction without losing anything more.

Nothing points against the possibility of a Mursaat population living hidden outside of phase. Keeping a part of the races population permanently safe would benefit the race in cases of emergencies, which the Mursaat feared would happen (they did try their best to stop the Flameseekers after all because they were aware of the danger). It is only logical to ensure that the race will survive a catastrophe that there was a literal prophecy about. They have the means to do it, they have the reasons to do it, so why would they not do it? Everything points at a population of Mursaat hiding out of phase who just need to wait for the ideal moment to make a comeback.

The titans are made of souls. The mursaat's ability to phase partway into the Mists is the same ability that ghosts and spirits have to hide from mortal eyes. By all indication, it's even the same as what the havrouns do as we see in the norn Defend the Mists PS storyline. There's no reason that the titans wouldn't be capable of doing the same thing.

That's kind of the entire point of the titans wiping out the mursaat. They're both resilient to Spectral Agony (no doubt due to being souls that were tormented, thus used to and born from literal spectral agony) and made of beings capable of slipping partway into the Mists. They're the mursaat's natural enemies, like the Eidolons.

[Nikolai.3648]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There have been two times it has been suggested all mursaat were dead. At the end of Prophecies, and with those survivors' deaths. With no repopulation capabilities, there's no reason to believe they survived. There is no trend.

I never called it a trend. The number of data points we have is not enough to even try to do so. But during all observed instances, each time people assume the Mursaat are gone for good now, they came back. Make of this what you will.

It actually specifically refers to the last mursaat.

Please give me the exact line of the prophecies that leads you to this claim. If the prophecies referred to the last Mursaat, why are there still survivors after Nightfall? Do you interpret the diabolic gathering as something else than I do?

Afterward, a gift arrived: the sword we call the Shining Blade. As the last lay dying, the Seers bestowed us their ancient weapon and a duty to destroy the last mursaat, should he ever return.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Shining_Blade_Manual_(complete

)

You already mentioned the Seers. They were a desperate race of few survivors who wanted to make sure their enemies died with them. This does not mean they knew enough of the Mursaat to ensure there would not have been survivors left they did not knew about. You may put them in a line with Livia, their claim is hollow for all we know.

Their actions felt less like reclaiming their place as secret leaders of Kryta, and more like hellbent on using any means necessary to wipe out those who caused their race's extinction without losing anything more.

We certainly disagree regarding this point. If they wanted to wipe out as many humans as possible, there were better opportunities to do so. If they wanted revenge on the shining blade, murdering Salma after they let down their guard would have been more efficient. Their actions only makes sense when viewed as a grasp for the influence they were losing at that time.

The titans are made of souls. The mursaat's ability to phase partway into the Mists is the same ability that ghosts and spirits have to hide from mortal eyes. By all indication, it's even the same as what the havrouns do as we see in the norn Defend the Mists PS storyline. There's no reason that the titans wouldn't be capable of doing the same thing.

Where is your proof for that claim? The Titans can’t go everywhere they please, just because the are made of souls. There was a reason they were still trapped behind the Door and needed portals after that.

They're the mursaat's natural enemies, like the Eidolons.

They are not the natural enemy of the Mursaat. Yes, they resist their greatest weapon, but they don’t have any reason to attack them. The Lich wanted to fulfill the prophecy he misinterpreted and ordered them to attack the Mursaat.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There have been two times it has been suggested all mursaat were dead. At the end of Prophecies, and with those survivors' deaths. With no repopulation capabilities, there's no reason to believe they survived. There is no trend.

I never called it a trend.

Running theme, trend, same thing tbh.

But during all observed instances, each time people assume the Mursaat are gone for good now, they came back. Make of this what you will.

Yes. All two times.

As all my math teachers throughout grade school said: You cannot prove a line is straight without a third point.

Similarly, you cannot prove a running theme with only two occurrences.

Please give me the exact line of the prophecies that leads you to this claim. If the prophecies referred to the last Mursaat, why are there still survivors after Nightfall? Do you interpret the diabolic gathering as something else than I do?

I did. You dismiss it at "just the Seers".

The titans are made of souls. The mursaat's ability to phase partway into the Mists is the same ability that ghosts and spirits have to hide from mortal eyes. By all indication, it's even the same as what the havrouns do as we see in the norn Defend the Mists PS storyline. There's no reason that the titans wouldn't be capable of doing the same thing.

Where is your proof for that claim? The Titans can’t go everywhere they please, just because the are made of souls. There was a reason they were still trapped behind the Door and needed portals after that.

It's not a claim so much as a theory from what we know the origin of titans, and what that origin can do. And, as said, no reason presented for why the titans wouldn't still be capable of such (especially since one doesn't need to be a soul to go partway into the Mists).

Regarding requiring a portal like the Door of Komalie: souls also cannot freely traverse between the Mists and Tyria. They can only enter the halfway point. The titans, souls given corporeal bodies, would require portals just as souls do. Thus why the only time we see souls coming from the Mists are when they're near Lord Odran's portals (particularly the Tomb of the Primeval Kings), Desmina's soul coming through portals to the Underworld at Godslost Swamp and Reaper's Gate, and when Kralkatorrik is making rifts every which way between Tyria and the afterlives.

[Nikolai.3648]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There have been two times it has been suggested all mursaat were dead. At the end of Prophecies, and with those survivors' deaths. With no repopulation capabilities, there's no reason to believe they survived. There is no trend.

I never called it a trend.

Running theme, trend, same thing tbh.

A theme does not equal a trend. While I normally have no problems with people using the terms synonymously, I do take offense to someone trying to put words into my mouth. Especially if it is followed by this:

But during all observed instances, each time people assume the Mursaat are gone for good now, they came back. Make of this what you will.

Yes. All two times.

As all my math teachers throughout grade school said: You cannot prove a line is straight without a third point.

Similarly, you cannot prove a running theme with only two occurrences.

It is surprising how you can shamelessly ramble about mathematics like that after you were the one who tried to put the phrase in my mouth. You should also count again. At least one Mursaat came back after people assumed they were extinct after 1) The Titans 2) Lazarus cameo in GWEN 3) The Battle for Lion's Arch. That makes three instances, not two.

I did. You dismiss it at "just the Seers".

I dismiss the Seers because they are unreliable narrators. Based on your post on the topic “I will start writing fan fiction called "War Stories," entailing the battle in the mists“, I thought you were aware how common these are in GW2 and how we can’t trust them. My apologies, I should not have assumed. More importantly, you still did not address my original request:

@Nikolai.3648 said:The prophecy is not clear regarding the numbers of the Mursaat at all because it refers to them as a single bird who dies at the end. If the prophecies count every Mursaat as this bird, the suggested timeline would be wrong, as the diabolic gathering is closed off once again after the bird is dead. This diabolic gathering does however refer to either the Titans or Nightfall itself, both happening before we even meet the remaining Mursaat. So nowhere do the prophecies clearly state that this would be the last Mursaat.

It actually specifically refers to the last mursaat.

@Nikolai.3648 said:Please give me the exact line of the prophecies that leads you to this claim.

You claimed that the Flameseeker prophecies specifically referred to the last Mursaat. This is not true.

The titans are made of souls. The mursaat's ability to phase partway into the Mists is the same ability that ghosts and spirits have to hide from mortal eyes. By all indication, it's even the same as what the havrouns do as we see in the norn Defend the Mists PS storyline. There's no reason that the titans wouldn't be capable of doing the same thing.

Where is your proof for that claim? The Titans can’t go everywhere they please, just because the are made of souls. There was a reason they were still trapped behind the Door and needed portals after that.

It's not a claim so much as a theory from what we know the origin of titans, and what that origin can do. And, as said, no reason presented for why the titans wouldn't still be capable of such (especially since one doesn't need to be a soul to go partway into the Mists).

Calling it a theory does not change the fact that you made a claim, namely: “There's no reason that the titans wouldn't be capable of doing the same thing.” More importantly, your claim seems to be based on a fallacy. You stated:” And, as said, no reason presented for why the titans wouldn't still be capable of such”. You assume that the Titans have an ability like this. You have the burden of proof regarding this topic. Regardless, I presented you with the arguments why the Titans could most likely not reach the Mursaat. You still dismiss these arguments. At this point I am confronted with a Probatio diabolica, because every argument I can make, regarding the Titans not having the power you claim they have, would be dismissed as being not enough to count as a proof. I don’t see any reason to go on with this part of the argument, as long as you do not provide solid proof for the Titans having the ability to move out of phase. And this may take a while, because Titans were never shown to be able to move out of phase. Remember that the term “out of phase” is only ever used for the Mursaat, indicating that it is different from what normal spirits can achieve by traveling through the mists, which is why your whole paragraph falls flat.