Back to GW2, wondering about raiding and professions

[Onemoredragon.7593]

Hello everyone! A potentially returning player here, asking those willing to answer about professions, progression and raiding, all PvE-related.

I used to play GW2 quite a lot but left the game somewhere in between Hearth of Thorns and Path of Fire, so I guess it was 2016 (?). Used to main a thief, but also played a bit of every other profession, did some fractals, poked at the Vale Guardian fight when it came out which turned out as a terrible mess.. Anyways, I've got the desire to return recently and see how the game have changed, but don't know which profession to choose for a fresh new character. I want to play something I haven't played before, so thief is probably not an option unless the elite specs make it really hmmm different.

Which profession and spec do you guys think:

• is currently suited and viable for PvE group and solo play?
• in raid environment, does good DPS but also provides some interesting group utilities, buffs, debuffs, etc (not just pure selfish damage dealer, if that makes sense)
• is less likely to receive a nerf in the future, in case developers shared any updates regarding combat (aka not so incredibly OP that something needs to be done with it ;) )
• ain't too simple, ain't super complex to play.

As for endgame in general.. I'm coming from an MMO with a classic trinity system (Elder Scrolls Online) and mained a tank there. I realize that here in GW2, there is no real trinity, but some professions can still heal or tank when needed. So from an endgame point of few, I would like to ask some more:

• What's the main goal of PvE endgame here? What do you guys progress for?
• Are fractals considered endgame too? Are there any challenges for fractals and raids that progression groups/guilds are striving to achieve?
• What is the hardest and/or the most responsible job to do in a raid in general?
• Are there any mechanics that can be done only by a certain class/role/spec that are really important for the entire group?

So to sum it all up, what would be the best suited class/spec for a "retiring" from another MMO tanking enthusiast, who does not want to tank anymore :o but still wants to be able to dish out nice damage and get that warm feeling of importance (either by providing things to others or being perfectly suited to do something hard or tricky). Eeh maybe it's too much to ask after all ;P

Thanks for reading this and your attention! Would be cool to see some raid talk here and a few suggestions for a new character :) Cheers!

[starlinvf.1358]

If all you do is Raid, you'll be disappointed regardless. Its not designed well enough as a concept to have the endless nature of WoW raids.

In terms of build comp, the short version is all of them have viability (technically always had).... but as far as the Raid community goes, everything has been progressively capped off in a way that its now boils down to "What the group argues over for which classes they want to roll that day". The Meta revolves around 2 major comps. ChornoTank or Fire Brigade.

ChronoTank is a Chrono/Chorno/Druid team, and is the main PUG comp due to its high compatibility with all other Raid builds, and universal applicability in all raid wings. FireBrigade is a Firebrand/Renegade pair to give Quickness and Alacrity over a larger area, requires healing and might from other slots, but allows for better fight specific optimization and hybrids. However, it does have difficulty in a few fights where they aren't recommended for.

On the subject of future proofing..... after the Devs touching chrono tank, nothing is safe. The more popular a build is now, the more likely they'll change it to make room for other builds to squeeze in..... and then nerf those.. and so on... and so on...

The first mistake people make is trying to make/find an archetype seen in other games, rather then see the game's strengths and play those to an advantage. The concept of "a main" is poison to this game, as you have the opportunity to get good with EVERY class, since they're easy to get setup, and the variety helps break up the monotony of farming "end game" over and over, weeks on end. But even saying that.... the game underutilizes its own features to a criminal level, making the slow rate of content releases that much more pronounced. The late section of HOT raids start to get more interesting mechanics, as are many of the POF fights..... but there isn't enough variety in total, and what remains of the raid community has done them so many times, and now so well practiced, I'm pretty sure at least half do it while watching Netflix.

Secondly... Progression for Progression's sake (as are chasing shinnies) is a dead end mind set. The game has tried repeated to "add more progression", but they realize doing so in the way other games do will frustrate the largely casual player base and still do nothing to aid retention of "Hardcore" players that blow through "goals" within a week of them being added. Artificial gating delays the onset, but ultimately compounds the problem when the wall is hit.

By looking at whats happening with classic WoW, the "progression" system as we see it today offers nothing of real value to the players. Players need problems to solve that aren't just mathematical in nature..... its why gear treadmills are the only thing keeping contemporary WoW-like games alive, and why they die off so suddenly once they can't keep up with the playerbase's insatiable need for progress in the absence of catharsis.

Now as for class choice.... if you're trying to satisfy a messiah complex, ChronoTank is the one job that destablizes the fastest. And not for the reasons you expect/hope for. Chrono team comps are based on 3 supports that enables the DPS builds to run completely glass. If you're not familiar with this yet.... the ENTIRE PURPOSE of the Trinity design is to shield the DPS builds from everything else; and its done in such an artificially dumb way, that it openly invites disaster. Hybrid comps are actually a lot stronger in practice, but have to be more specifically tailored to the Encounter. Given the difficulty of finding that kind of flexibility in LFG, partitioning the DPS from the Supports in the group comp makes it much easier to fill with Randos. This also applies to fractals, since front loaded DPS shortens fights enough that "tank" type jobs don't even need to exist.

ChronoTank itself is actually the unintended result of the game's combat system highlighting a situation where Duelist builds (which are made for 1v1) are also the optimal build type for Tanking. Simply put, basic game design heavily favors "Damage avoidance" over "Damage Soaking", and this game's active combat system gives players full control over it. The ONLY reason you don't see this in every Tank and Spank format RPG, is that defenses tend to be passive and probability driven. That lack of control, compounded by common "level disparity" penalties, means players have no means of substituting their "stats" with mastery of game play. In fact, this is on purpose, as many players could fundamentally break the whole combat system with tricks that would be insanely obvious in FPS games. ... and we have 5 years worth of FPS/RPG hybrids that proved it.

While we're on the subject.... the Meta in this game is heavily skewed in favor of DPS. But given the level of flexibility in the build system, DPS is cost/benefit analysis for other functions. As a result.... everything is DPS by default, and its simply a question of how much DPS they are trading off to fill another function. Theoretically any class can tank raid bosses effectively. What makes Chrono Meta is potential for Role Compression. A Chrono is Tank, Buff, Group Defense, and Add Control in a single package, that would normally take at least 3 slots in any other game. There is currently 5 benchmark builds just for Chrono Tank, plus 2 more 2nd Chrono in mirror comp, each of which represents thresholds for optimal trade offs between personal DPS vs Aggro control and additional support functions.

As far as this game goes.... how much you enjoy getting into it depends entirely on how much you're willing to "Unlearn" all the arbitrary stupidity of Trinity based games, and Learn all the arbitrary stupidity of Action Combat/RPG hybrid games. Personally I prefer the arbitrary stupidity of the latter, since it forces Devs to address things at a mechanical level, and offers much greater possibility for creative solutions via comprehension of the game's internal design logic.

[Endaris.1452]

I'll stick a bit more to the question compared to the previous poster.

Which profession and spec do you guys think:

• is currently suited and viable for PvE group and solo play?
• in raid environment, does good DPS but also provides some interesting group utilities, buffs, debuffs, etc (not just pure selfish damage dealer, if that makes sense)
• is less likely to receive a nerf in the future, in case developers shared any updates regarding combat (aka not so incredibly OP that something needs to be done with it ;) )
• ain't too simple, ain't super complex to play.

Every profession is suited and viable for solo and group PvE content!In regards to the specialisition this might differ a bit with some elite specs being clearly less efficient when it comes to soloing content. The Druid spec of ranger is the most affected by this due to your pet being nerfed and the Druid spec not adding any offensive elements but you can still do fine on your own.

Dragonhunter is currently the meta power DPS class as it can provide Stability to 10 people if needed, block attacks for the entire group with its F3 ability and help with supplying Quickness as a key boon on top of being able to pull adds and dealing DPS both ranged and melee. While it is definitely something that can receive a nerf in the future, almost all of its supportive perks are rooted in Core Guardian abilities which makes it very unlikely that any of that will get touched.It is relatively easy to pick up but still has a high ceiling for mastering.

• What's the main goal of PvE endgame here? What do you guys progress for?Legendary armor, fashion wars, fun or something like that

• Are fractals considered endgame too? Are there any challenges for fractals and raids that progression groups/guilds are striving to achieve?Yes, there are challenge modes for the 2 highest ranked fractals that are definitely considered endgame. As already hinted, yes there are challenges. Starting with the fourth raid wing, every encounter has a specific achievement that requires you to either finish it in a set time or enable a challenge mode that typically adds health to the boss and adds new mechanics. There are also similar achievements found for the first 3 raid wings but they're usually not explicitly labelled as challenge modes.Completing the challenge mode of the last boss in W5 is considered the pinnacle of raid achievements.

• What is the hardest and/or the most responsible job to do in a raid in general?That depends entirely on the encounter. There are encounters that require advanced tanking skills and encounters without tanks. On some it is very important to control certain adds or kite mechanics away from the main group. There isn't the one job that is the hardest on every encounter.The most responsible beyond mechanics however is usually supplying supportive boons to everyone else as this impacts the squad DPS by a magnitude. The 3 classes responsible for the 2 rarest important boons (Quickness and Alacrity) are Chronomancer (mesmer espec, does both), Firebrand (guardian espec, does Quickness) and Renegade (revenant espec, does Alacrity). Note that both Chrono and Firebrand are very commonly used as tanks as well though.

• Are there any mechanics that can be done only by a certain class/role/spec that are really important for the entire group?Again, depends on the encounter. There are 2 specific mechanics that require skills that are relatively scarce when looking through all the classes:One is projectile reflection. Mesmer and Firebrand (somewhat including Core Guardian) are the best when it comes to this. While other classes also sport reflects, they usually don't have the duration and prompt availability in comparison.The other is boon stripping. Boonstrip is readily available for the Necromancer, Renegade (espec of Revenant), Spellbreaker (espec of Warrior) and to some degree Mesmer.Note however that both of these mechanics are only needed in a few places.

So to sum it all up, what would be the best suited class/spec for a "retiring" from another MMO tanking enthusiast, who does not want to tank anymore :o but still wants to be able to dish out nice damage and get that warm feeling of importance (either by providing things to others or being perfectly suited to do something hard or tricky). Eeh maybe it's too much to ask after all ;P

Either Dragonhunter or Firebrand I would say. Since both are guardian, you can't really go wrong. Dragonhunter is more about the burst and the versatility while Firebrand can be run both as a full damage variant (as which it is clearly inferior to Dragonhunter on most stuff) or a quickness oriented one that still deals respectable damage.Firebrand being used as tank might scare you off a bit but personally I think tanking in GW2 is not very complicated. Out of the 21 different bosses, 6 don't use a fixed tank at all, 7 are trivial to tank (as in, you're not really dedicated to tanking, you just take aggro, face the boss away from the group and do your usual business) and only 3 or 4 can be considered as actually "difficult" to tank.

[Onemoredragon.7593]

@"starlinvf.1358" said:

Secondly... Progression for Progression's sake (as are chasing shinnies) is a dead end mind set. The game has tried repeated to "add more progression", but they realize doing so in the way other games do will frustrate the largely casual player base and still do nothing to aid retention of "Hardcore" players that blow through "goals" within a week of them being added. Artificial gating delays the onset, but ultimately compounds the problem when the wall is hit.

By looking at whats happening with classic WoW, the "progression" system as we see it today offers nothing of real value to the players. Players need problems to solve that aren't just mathematical in nature..... its why gear treadmills are the only thing keeping contemporary WoW-like games alive, and why they die off so suddenly once they can't keep up with the playerbase's insatiable need for progress in the absence of catharsis.

Hmm, looks like you were trying to point out that progression in more like just a number crunching exercise, achievement of nothingness? I think I meant something else by progression, less in-depth process but simply a set of goals that a like-minded group of players (hardcores, casuals, semi-casuals, whatever else) is trying to achieve. Whether is it fun to do or not, worthy or their time or not - depends on the players themselves.

As for other things, looks like Chrono wouldn't interest me much, despite the unique role it turned out to have in raiding, as I understood. There is definitely a lot of things to consider when switching between different games. Trinity or not, when you are not looking for the complete same system, you are already aware of the fact that 'getting used to' and understanding new concepts is going to be a thing in any case.Thanks for the response!

[Onemoredragon.7593]

@"talprofil.5986" Whoa, your post really answered all my questions and even more! Should give it another read or two, to settle the info in my head :)I can see how some of them questions would actually seem pointless, because a lot of things depend on encounters themselves, and I don't have any knowledge of them yet. I really appreciate the help!

@"talprofil.5986" said:

Either Dragonhunter or Firebrand I would say. Since both are guardian, you can't really go wrong. Dragonhunter is more about the burst and the versatility while Firebrand can be run both as a full damage variant (as which it is clearly inferior to Dragonhunter on most stuff) or a quickness oriented one that still deals respectable damage.

Guardian seems interesting and honestly, it's the class I paid the less attention to back then, when I was playing. Are there any other professions that offer this kind of versatility, or guardian is somewhat really unique?

[Endaris.1452]

There are other dps builds that can cover support aspects but it's not as straightforward as for Dragonhunter and it's not as common in the PUG LFG meta.

There is for example the Tempest (elementalist espec) that can supply all relevant boons besides Quickness and Alacrity while still dealing respectable DPS. It is however not common because these relevant boons are usually supplied by a build that focuses on heals and support, usually a Druid or a dedicated Heal Tempest. In an organised squad play it can be very good as it allows you to run one less healer for example.

Beyond these more "active" supporters there are also dps that lend more passive support:Any kind of warrior can slot banners which grant bonus stats to your entire squad when placed down. These bonus stats are in fact so valuable for overall DPS (because they're going on 10 people mainly) that literally every raidsquad will run a "bannerslave", short "bs". Banners are planted in the ground and have a certain range of effect which means that on some encounters you need to actively pick up and replace your banners to keep optimal uptime but overall banners are a rather passive kind of support.Another valuable support tool are the spirits of the ranger spec. While these are usually covered by the Druid (much like warrior you'll see at least 1 Druid in about every squad), any DPS variant of the Soulbeast espec can slot 1 spirit to either support the squad or replace the Druid completely on lower pressure encounters. The Soulbeast also has the possibility to share some of its damage enhancing effects to 5 allies through Stance sharing, effectively increasing their group's damage for some burst. Spirits are somewhat similar to the banners in that they are placed down once, and only have to be pressed again if you're moving out of their range as long as you don't place them as Druid in which case you have to activate their active component on cooldown for boon generation through a special trait.

Given that I talked so much about Druid already: It's the most prevalent variant for supplying boons other than Quickness and Alacrity to their subgroup and partially even the entire squad (Might, Fury, Swiftness, Regeneration, Protection) while also providing unique buffs through Ranger spirits (effective on the entire squad) and the Spotter buff (small stat increase for 5 players). It is responsible for healing the group on incoming damage.

Both Druid and Bannerslave are commonly asked to do all kinds of mechanics that not everyone is required to participate in because they are dealing lower damage than the Best-in-Slot DPS on the respective encounter and often aren't required to be on the squad at all times. This is interesting to some degree because doing mechanics can be kind of fun and doing mechanics correctly definitely carries the squad.

Renegade (revenant espec) can also be played as some kind of hybrid of DPS and Alacrity provider but it is typically either full DPS or Heal+Alacrity+other boons in raid content as you typically take 1 dedicated person for these kind of jobs instead of having many doing hybrid jobs - it's just a lot easier for forming raid squads that way. I also believe that it is more difficult to get into the class and the other espec of Revenant is one of the specs that is currently somewhat far away from being meta (filling a similar niche as the DPS Boon Tempest).One of the major upsides of Guardian above Revenant is that its elite specs can be played viable as both Power and Condi DPS (some bosses favor one over the other) while the only competitive DPS variant for the PUG meta revenant is Condition Renegade. Both classes (Firebrand and Renegade) also work as support oriented specs giving out their respective boon that can be ran both in a heal and DPS variant but the latter is much more common on Firebrand as Firebrand supports more through blocks and stability (which it can also do on DPS/Boon Hybrid) while Renegade has the superior raw healing which is desired in the current meta.

Small detour to the current PUG meta:1 Bannerslave as already mentioned1 Druid for supportive buffs+heal+utility5 DPSsome incomprehensible combination of 3 other players that cover Quickness and Alacrity for both groups and heals for the subgroup that doesn't have the DruidThis is the part that usually involves varying amounts of Chronomancers, Firebrands, Renegades and other off-healers with various imagineable combinations of who heals and who still gears for damage on top. Typical combination is 1 Chrono with the Druid and Firebrand+Renegade in the other subgroup with either one being on heal. It can also be 2 Chronos and 1 Renegade or 2 Chronos and 1 off-healer or 2 Firebrands and 1 Renegade. It's a bit confusing at first but as you get to learn each classes kit you get a knack for how you can combine them.

[Onemoredragon.7593]

@"talprofil.5986" Exactly what I was looking for, an insight into DPS specs with a way to support the group more or less in the current meta. Surely will take me quite some time to get into raiding and things can change, but it never hurts to understand these things in general. Thanks for very detailed explanation!