I did a (Terrible) Necro Spec Overhaul

[Taril.8619]

Since I was bored and frustrated at constant disconnects and rollbacks when actually playing GW2 after the patch, I thought it'd be fun to reorganize Necro's traits based on their names.

As such, I threw together this absolutely awful set of traits:

Spite:

Armoured Shroud - Gain Protection for 5s upon entering Shroud.

• Spiteful Talisman - Deal 10% increased damage to foes with no boons. Axe and Focus skills recharge 20% faster.
• Dark Defiance - When disabled, gain 3s Retaliation and Protection. 20s CD.
• Bitter Chill - Chilling a foe applies 3x Vulnerability for 8s.

Spiteful Renewal - Consume conditions to gain health when using a healing skill. (Consume 1 condition)

• Sinister Shroud - Shroud skills apply Vulnerability for 5s.
• Putrid Defence - Take 7% less damage from Poisoned foes. When struck below 75% health create a Poison Nova (30s CD)
• Unholy Martyr - When entering Shroud, transfer conditions for allies. Upon leaving Shroud consume conditions and gain Life Force. (Transfer 5 conditions. Consume 3 conditions)

Unholy Sanctuary - Gain Barrier when you enter Shroud.

• Weakening Shroud - Deal damage and Weaken enemies when entering Shroud.
• Vital Persistence - Gain 180 Vitality. Gain health equal to 20% of healing you receive.
• Spiteful Shroud - Deal damage and Cripple foes while gaining Retalitation when entering Shroud.

Curses:

Barbed Precision - Critcal hits have a 33% chance to cause bleeding. Bleeding lasts 20% longer.

• Mark of Evasion - Leave a Mark of Blood when you dodge. 6s CD (Now also provides a trait icon when your next dodge will create a Mark)
• Plague Sending - Your first attack after entering Shroud transfers 2 conditions.
• Necromantic Corruption - Minions deal 25% more damage and take conditions from you. When a minion attacks, it transfers 1 condition to its target. 10s CD per minion.

Insidious Disruption - Applying Cripple or Chill also applies Bleed 4s

• Lingering Curse - Condition damage is increased by 200 while wielding a Scepter. Conditions applied by a Scepter have 33% increased durations, and Feast of Corruption becomes Devouring Darkness.
• Path of Corruption - Whenever you apply Bleed or Torment, apply an additional stack.
• Chilling Darkness - Applying Blind also applies Chill 2s. 2s CD.

Target the Weak - Increases critical hit chance by 2% for each condition on a foe. Gain condition damage equal to 7% of precision.

• Corrupters Fervor - Deal 2% increased damage per condition on a foe.
• Parasitic Contagion - Heal for 10% of the condition damage you deal. Applying a condition generates 1% Life Force (1s CD)
• Master of Corruption - Corruption skills apply additional conditions and 2s Resistance to you. Corruption skills have 20% reduced recharge.

Death Magic:

Furious Demise - Attacking a foe below 50% health grants 5s Fury (5s CD)

• Flesh of the Master - Minions have 50% increased health and 10% of the damage and healing you receive is split among your minions.
• Chill of Death - Attacking a foe below 50% health casts Spinal Shivers. 20s CD.
• Supremacy - Deal 10% more damage and condition damage to foes with lower percentage health than you.

Death's Embrace - Deal 25% more damage while downed. Attacking a foe below 50% health applies 5x Vulnerability 8s (10s CD)

• Banshee's Wail - Warhorn skills gain 50% increased effect duration and 20% reduced recharge.
• Fear of Death - Fear deals damage over time and inflicting Fear grants 15% Life Force (5s CD)
• Deadly Strength - Might grants more Power and less Condition Damage. Gain 5x Might 5s upon entering Shroud.

Last Rites - As long as you are not downed, nearby allies do not bleed out. Gain Healing Power based on your current health.

• Death Nova - When you or one of your minions is downed, create a Death Nova. Summon a Jagged Horror when you kill a foe or strike a foe that is below 50% life.
• Death Perception - Gain 33% critical strike chance against foes below 50% life. Striking a target below 50% life grants 250 Ferocity for 3s (3s CD)
• Close to Death - Deal 30% more damage to foes below 25% life or while below 25% life.

Blood Magic:

Gluttony - Healing or applying Barrier to an ally grants +10 Healing Power. Stacks up to 25 times.

• Ritual of Life - Cast Lesser Well of Blood when reviving an ally. Wells of Blood revive allies with each pulse. 35s CD.
• Awaken the Pain - Taking damage or losing Life Force grants 10% increased damage for 5s.
• Blood Bond - Cast Lesser Signet of Vampirism when you inflict Bleeding that matches or exceeds the threshold. (Threshold 4. CD 20s)

Vampiric Presence - Grant nearby allies Life Siphon on their attacks. This is increased while in Shroud. You gain 150% of this auras effect.

• Life from Death - Heal and partially revive allies when leaving Shroud.
• Blood Springs - Healing or applying Barrier to an ally grants 1% Life Force (1s CD)
• Quickening Thirst - Gain 10% attack speed. Gain bonus increased attack speed based on current life. (Below 75% life, 10%. Below 50% life, 15%. Below 25% life, 20%)

Siphoned Power - When you remove a condition from an ally, grant Might (10s)

• Sanguine Rituals - Wells apply Bleed (5s) and Protection (5s) with each pulse.
• Eternal Life - If you would receive a lethal blow, instead gain Barrier and Protection (3s)
• Transfusion - Shroud skill 4 heals and revives allies. Up to 5 nearby downed allies are teleported to you upon activating Shroud skill 4.

Soul Reaping:

Reaper's Might - Shroud skill 1 grants Might (15s)

• Soul Comprehension - Gain 20% increased Life Force from all sources.
• Soul Marks - Marks generate 3% Life Force and are unblockable. Staff skills gain 20% reduced recharge.
• Mistwalking - Gain 25% movement speed. Entering Shroud grants Swiftness (10s) and removes movement impairing effects.

Soul Battery - Maximum Life Force is increased by 20%

• Soul Barbs - Gain 10% increased damage for 10s upon entering or leaving Shroud.
• Wraithborne - Spectral skills grant 5 Might (15s) and Fury (10s). Specral skills have 20% reduced recharge.
• Soul Corruption - Conditions you apply deal 0.5% more damage for each stack of Vulnerability on a target.

Beyond the Veil - Shroud skills gain 20% reduced recharge.

• Soul Harvest - Deal increased damage based on current Life Force (Above 75% = 5%, below 75% = 10%, below 50% = 15%, below 25% = 20%) attacks generate 1% Life Force (1s CD)
• Signets of Suffering - Signet passive effects are increased and apply while in Shroud. Signets gain reduced recharge each second while in Shroud.
• Dhuumfire - Shroud skill 1 applies Burning 3s (1s CD)

[Kodama.6453]

I don't quite understand why you are switching their roles here. As far as I know, spite has always been the trait line for power damage, but in this rework here you make it more of a defensive trait line.On the other hand, death magic has been about tankiness, but you make it a damage trait line here.

Also a single trait that gives a 30% damage modifier seems a bit much.

[Taril.8619]

@"Kodama.6453" said:I don't quite understand why you are switching their roles here. As far as I know, spite has always been the trait line for power damage, but in this rework here you make it more of a defensive trait line.On the other hand, death magic has been about tankiness, but you make it a damage trait line here.

Because, as I said, I made changes based around names.

There are a bunch of traits that deal bonuses to things below 50% life, which is more suited to "Death" Magic.

While "Spite" sounds more fitting for being tanky and using things like Retaliation to punish enemies that attack you.

@"Kodama.6453" said:Also a single trait that gives a 30% damage modifier seems a bit much.

Currently there already exists traits that give 20% damage. In fact, Necro currently has one (Close to Death: Deal 20% more damage to foes below 50% life)

I figure why not differentiate the trait from other similar ones (Bolt to the Heart, Executioner, Swift Termination) by making a more "Death" orientated theme of requiring a target to be closer to death (Below 25% instead of below 50%) but giving a higher damage boost (30% instead of 20%)

Now, technically, it's objectively worse with these numbers (It'd require a higher damage boost to be comparable to the standard 20% under 50%) but putting a higher number would probably make people think it's crazy OP (And it might end up being too good in PvP due to taking out downed players)

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Taril.8619" said:Since I was bored and frustrated at constant disconnects and rollbacks when actually playing GW2 after the patch, I thought it'd be fun to reorganize Necro's traits based on their names.

As such, I threw together this absolutely awful set of traits:

Spite:

Armoured Shroud - Gain Protection for 5s upon entering Shroud.This doesn't scream spite for me. More like depression...

• Spiteful Talisman - Deal 10% increased damage to foes with no boons. Axe and Focus skills recharge 20% faster.
• Dark Defiance - When disabled, gain 3s Retaliation and Protection. 20s CD.Same here, doesn't make sense.
• Bitter Chill - Chilling a foe applies 3x Vulnerability for 8s.

Spiteful Renewal - Consume conditions to gain health when using a healing skill. (Consume 1 condition)

• Sinister Shroud - Shroud skills apply Vulnerability for 5s.
• Putrid Defence - Take 7% less damage from Poisoned foes. When struck below 75% health create a Poison Nova (30s CD)Again.
• Unholy Martyr - When entering Shroud, transfer conditions for allies. Upon leaving Shroud consume conditions and gain Life Force. (Transfer 5 conditions. Consume 3 conditions)It would be more in the line of masochism than spite.

Unholy Sanctuary - Gain Barrier when you enter Shroud.Again it's not spite-like

• Weakening Shroud - Deal damage and Weaken enemies when entering Shroud.
• Vital Persistence - Gain 180 Vitality. Gain health equal to 20% of healing you receive.Again
• Spiteful Shroud - Deal damage and Cripple foes while gaining Retalitation when entering Shroud.

Well, anyway, this "spite" could probably be renamed at this point, being on the defensive like that doesn't suit the word "spite".

Curses:

Barbed Precision - Critcal hits have a 33% chance to cause bleeding. Bleeding lasts 20% longer.

• Mark of Evasion - Leave a Mark of Blood when you dodge. 6s CD (Now also provides a trait icon when your next dodge will create a Mark)
• Plague Sending - Your first attack after entering Shroud transfers 2 conditions.
• Necromantic Corruption - Minions deal 25% more damage and take conditions from you. When a minion attacks, it transfers 1 condition to its target. 10s CD per minion.

Insidious Disruption - Applying Cripple or Chill also applies Bleed 4s

• Lingering Curse - Condition damage is increased by 200 while wielding a Scepter. Conditions applied by a Scepter have 33% increased durations, and Feast of Corruption becomes Devouring Darkness.
• Path of Corruption - Whenever you apply Bleed or Torment, apply an additional stack.
• Chilling Darkness - Applying Blind also applies Chill 2s. 2s CD.

Target the Weak - Increases critical hit chance by 2% for each condition on a foe. Gain condition damage equal to 7% of precision.I'd see this in spite anyday.

• Corrupters Fervor - Deal 2% increased damage per condition on a foe.I'd see this in spite anyday.
• Parasitic Contagion - Heal for 10% of the condition damage you deal. Applying a condition generates 1% Life Force (1s CD)Stronger than the scourge trait that grant LF on corruption, awesome!
• Master of Corruption - Corruption skills apply additional conditions and 2s Resistance to you. Corruption skills have 20% reduced recharge.

Overall it end up way to strong with this kind of trait position.

Death Magic:

Furious Demise - Attacking a foe below 50% health grants 5s Fury (5s CD)

• Flesh of the Master - Minions have 50% increased health and 10% of the damage and healing you receive is split among your minions.
• Chill of Death - Attacking a foe below 50% health casts Spinal Shivers. 20s CD.
• Supremacy - Deal 10% more damage and condition damage to foes with lower percentage health than you.

Death's Embrace - Deal 25% more damage while downed. Attacking a foe below 50% health applies 5x Vulnerability 8s (10s CD)

• Banshee's Wail - Warhorn skills gain 50% increased effect duration and 20% reduced recharge.
• Fear of Death - Fear deals damage over time and inflicting Fear grants 15% Life Force (5s CD)
• Deadly Strength - Might grants more Power and less Condition Damage. Gain 5x Might 5s upon entering Shroud.

Last Rites - As long as you are not downed, nearby allies do not bleed out. Gain Healing Power based on your current health.

• Death Nova - When you or one of your minions is downed, create a Death Nova. Summon a Jagged Horror when you kill a foe or strike a foe that is below 50% life.
• Death Perception - Gain 33% critical strike chance against foes below 50% life. Striking a target below 50% life grants 250 Ferocity for 3s (3s CD)
• Close to Death - Deal 30% more damage to foes below 25% life or while below 25% life.

I wouldn't put the "while under X% health" traits in death magic. It doesn't make sense, your foe and you are still alive and kicking after all. Apart from the poorly placed minions trait effect It doesn't smell like death magic in any way.

Blood Magic:

Gluttony - Healing or applying Barrier to an ally grants +10 Healing Power. Stacks up to 25 times.

• Ritual of Life - Cast Lesser Well of Blood when reviving an ally. Wells of Blood revive allies with each pulse. 35s CD.
• Awaken the Pain - Taking damage or losing Life Force grants 10% increased damage for 5s.Change the triggering condition to "drawing a condition from allies or self inflicted condition" and I'm game for this one.
• Blood Bond - Cast Lesser Signet of Vampirism when you inflict Bleeding that matches or exceeds the threshold. (Threshold 4. CD 20s)

Vampiric Presence - Grant nearby allies Life Siphon on their attacks. This is increased while in Shroud. You gain 150% of this auras effect.

• Life from Death - Heal and partially revive allies when leaving Shroud.
• Blood Springs - Healing or applying Barrier to an ally grants 1% Life Force (1s CD)
• Quickening Thirst - Gain 10% attack speed. Gain bonus increased attack speed based on current life. (Below 75% life, 10%. Below 50% life, 15%. Below 25% life, 20%)The idea look great but translate poorly in the game.

Siphoned Power - When you remove a condition from an ally, grant Might (10s)Change the triggering condition to "drawing a condition from allies or self inflicted condition" and I'm game for this one.

• Sanguine Rituals - Wells apply Bleed (5s) and Protection (5s) with each pulse.
• Eternal Life - If you would receive a lethal blow, instead gain Barrier and Protection (3s)
• Transfusion - Shroud skill 4 heals and revives allies. Up to 5 nearby downed allies are teleported to you upon activating Shroud skill 4.

I mostly like this trailine. I'd say it's fitting of the name blood magic

Soul Reaping:

Reaper's Might - Shroud skill 1 grants Might (15s)Make it "reaping a boon grant you might (15s)". I don't think Shrd#1 use fit the meaning of "soul reaping".

• Soul Comprehension - Gain 20% increased Life Force from all sources.
• Soul Marks - Marks generate 3% Life Force and are unblockable. Staff skills gain 20% reduced recharge.
• Mistwalking - Gain 25% movement speed. Entering Shroud grants Swiftness (10s) and removes movement impairing effects.

Soul Battery - Maximum Life Force is increased by 20%

• Soul Barbs - Gain 10% increased damage for 10s upon entering or leaving Shroud.
• Wraithborne - Spectral skills grant 5 Might (15s) and Fury (10s). Specral skills have 20% reduced recharge.Don't really fit the "reaping" idea.
• Soul Corruption - Conditions you apply deal 0.5% more damage for each stack of Vulnerability on a target.

Beyond the Veil - Shroud skills gain 20% reduced recharge.

• Soul Harvest - Deal increased damage based on current Life Force (Above 75% = 5%, below 75% = 10%, below 50% = 15%, below 25% = 20%) attacks generate 1% Life Force (1s CD)
• Signets of Suffering - Signet passive effects are increased and apply while in Shroud. Signets gain reduced recharge each second while in Shroud.I don't see what it does in "soul reaping"
• Dhuumfire - Shroud skill 1 applies Burning 3s (1s CD)Same here it doesn't fit the idea of "reaping" anything.

Within the idea of "soul reaping", I'd have put anything that "reap" things. Boon convertion and the like could have been fitting there (chill of death, unholy martyr... etc.)

[Taril.8619]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well, anyway, this "spite" could probably be renamed at this point, being on the defensive like that doesn't suit the word "spite".

Spite: A desire to deliberately hurt, annoy or offend someone.

I'd say shrugging off enemies attacks fulfills the "Annoy" part of the definition of Spite.

Especially if you then also use your defensiveness to hurt enemies via Retaliation or "Offend" them by sapping their strength with debuffs.

Not to mention, some of these traits are unchanged from their actual implementation in the actual Spite spec right now (Spiteful Talisman, Spiteful Renewal and Spiteful Shroud which uhh... I mistyped is actually Spiteful Spirit)

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'd see this in spite anyday.

I'd see them in Curses. The line they're currently in. The line that focuses on Cursing enemies with damaging conditions.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Stronger than the scourge trait that grant LF on corruption, awesome!

A Grandmaster trait being stronger than a crappy Adept trait? SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE THAT'S ILLEGAL!

@Dadnir.5038 said:Overall it end up way to strong with this kind of trait position.

You realize that all I did was move it up to Grandmaster and add in 2s of Resistance right (Just because it's annoying dropping to 50% life while doing a burst condi with Blood is Power + Corrupt Boon in a Condi build with high Condi damage...)?

@Dadnir.5038 said:I wouldn't put the "while under X% health" traits in death magic. It doesn't make sense, your foe and you are still alive and kicking after all. Apart from the poorly placed minions trait effect It doesn't smell like death magic in any way.

Where would you put the traits that require your opponent to be near death then?

Given that any traits or effects that activate upon death or after death are functionally useless outside of Open World (Even then, Champions/Legendaries/World Bosses also negate on death effects), the only reasonable way to facilitate "Death Magic" is by using the mechanic of targets being "Near Death" - Similar to how the LW3 mastery Spectral Aid allows you to use Signet of Agony while downed because you're close to death and thus can channel the power of the Mists.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• Quickening Thirst
  - Gain 10% attack speed. Gain bonus increased attack speed based on current life. (Below 75% life, 10%. Below 50% life, 15%. Below 25% life, 20%)The idea look great but translate poorly in the game.

How so?

We have traits that already check your life percentage (Last Rites for example)

We have a trait that gives attack speed (Dual Wielding)

The only poor thing about this trait is that it is negated by Quickness. But outside of Reaper, Necro doesn't have access to Quickness (Also, personally, I'd love to see the perma-Quickness from Reaper's Onslaught removed but that's a topic for E-Spec changes)

@Dadnir.5038 said:Make it "reaping a boon grant you might (15s)". I don't think Shrd#1 use fit the meaning of "soul reaping".

Well, that's what the name of the trait is and what it does currently.

Also wtf is "Reaping" a boon? There's no terminology for that in game. (If you mean stealing boons, then Necro has none of that. Necro rips and converts, stealing boons is Thief and Mesmer)

@Dadnir.5038 said:Don't really fit the "reaping" idea.

Depends on how you look at it.

I consider Soul Reaping to be about matters of the Soul as well as Reaping.

Pure "Reaping" focus would be better done by the Reaper E-Spec.

@Dadnir.5038 said:I don't see what it does in "soul reaping"

If you use the idea of your Signets being powered by souls it makes sense. Soul Reaper has more souls so stronger signets. Being in Shroud and thus consuming Life Force charges your Signets with souls.

It makes about as much sense as it being in any other trait line.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Same here it doesn't fit the idea of "reaping" anything.

Burning people makes them dead. Dead people have their soul harvested by you (I.e. Life Force gain on death the passive mechanic of Necromancer)

@Dadnir.5038 said:Within the idea of "soul reaping", I'd have put anything that "reap" things. Boon convertion and the like could have been fitting there (chill of death, unholy martyr... etc.)

Boon conversion isn't reaping though. Reaping is gaining something. Chill of Death doesn't gain anything. Unholy Martyr could be considered since you are "gaining" Life Force, but the way it comes from having taken negative effects makes it feel less like "Reaping" (It also feels more like you're getting stronger to spite your enemy for having applied conditions to your allies)

If Necro had boon stealing, then sure, that would make sense for Soul Reaping. If Life Siphon wasn't far more clearly a Blood Magic theme that could also come under "Reaping".

Life Force manipulation makes a lot of sense for Soul Reaping and thus Spectral skills (All of which grant Life Force) too also fit (As well as being manipulation of your own soul), since you're "Reaping" the enemies "Souls" to gain Life Force and then, expending that Life Force so you can "Reap" more "Souls".

[Kodama.6453]

@"Taril.8619" said:

I think there is a way how you can utilise death magic thematically without having to actually interact with dead units on the battlefield (which, as you said, would most of the time turn out useless in this game).

Death magic is thematically interacting with dead matter. Minions are one example of this. While in the game mechanics these minions are "alive", they are thematically moving corpses... dead matter.

Other defensive traits can also work thematically here, like the whole carapace mechanic. The necromancer gains toughness per stack carapace. If we thematically flavour "carapace" as the necromancer covering himself with an armor made out of bones, then this would fit into death magic's thematic perfectly. You are utilising bones, which are dead matter.

[Taril.8619]

@"Kodama.6453" said:Other defensive traits can also work thematically here, like the whole carapace mechanic. The necromancer gains toughness per stack carapace. If we thematically flavour "carapace" as the necromancer covering himself with an armor made out of bones, then this would fit into death magic's thematic perfectly. You are utilising bones, which are dead matter.

But the Carapace mechanic is fundamentally flawed, in that 1) Stacking it is pretty jank either requiring Conditions or Kills which makes it awkward. 2) Toughness stacking is horrible for PvE due to how aggro works.

Stacking any other kind of defence is hard too. Since Vitality and Healing Power is thematically more "Blood" than "Death" and beyond that... There really isn't any more defensive stats. You could try and make it simply stacking % damage reduction similar to Protection, but then you face the issue of do you let it stack with Protection and Toughness allowing for immortal PvP builds? Do you have the entire mechanic rendered moot by Protection? Do you have the mechanic render Protection worthless?

Initially during my reorganizing of the specs, I was considering shifting the stacking mechanic over to Blood and have it be the theme for that spec, but I realized that honestly a single trait can do everything the mechanic needs, which is what ended up being Gluttony. Since that stacks nice and easily works in all areas of the game and builds (Since "Ally" traits also include yourself) and inherently causes various skills to be enhanced by the nature of how Healing Power works (As opposed to Toughness which doesn't impact any skills and thus needed mechanics to work off of it)

Also, technically, minions are not dead matter. They have never been alive. As mentioned by Trahearne as a reason why his minions are safe from Zhaitan's corruption. You're essentially a meat mage conjuring flesh and bone the same way an Elementalist conjures Earth/Ice/Fire/Lightning as opposed to animating dead matter.

[Kodama.6453]

@Taril.8619 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Other defensive traits can also work thematically here, like the whole carapace mechanic. The necromancer gains toughness per stack carapace. If we thematically flavour "carapace" as the necromancer covering himself with an armor made out of bones, then this would fit into death magic's thematic perfectly. You are utilising bones, which are dead matter.

But the Carapace mechanic is fundamentally flawed, in that 1) Stacking it is pretty jank either requiring Conditions or Kills which makes it awkward. 2) Toughness stacking is horrible for PvE due to how aggro works.

Stacking any other kind of defence is hard too. Since Vitality and Healing Power is thematically more "Blood" than "Death" and beyond that... There really isn't any more defensive stats. You could try and make it simply stacking % damage reduction similar to Protection, but then you face the issue of do you let it stack with Protection and Toughness allowing for immortal PvP builds? Do you have the entire mechanic rendered moot by Protection? Do you have the mechanic render Protection worthless?

Initially during my reorganizing of the specs, I was considering shifting the stacking mechanic over to Blood and have it be the theme for that spec, but I realized that honestly a single trait can do everything the mechanic needs, which is what ended up being Gluttony. Since that stacks nice and easily works in all areas of the game and builds (Since "Ally" traits also include yourself) and inherently causes various skills to be enhanced by the nature of how Healing Power works (As opposed to Toughness which doesn't impact any skills and thus needed mechanics to work off of it)

Also, technically, minions are not dead matter. They have never been alive. As mentioned by Trahearne as a reason why his minions are safe from Zhaitan's corruption. You're essentially a meat mage conjuring flesh and bone the same way an Elementalist conjures Earth/Ice/Fire/Lightning as opposed to animating dead matter.

The key here is "flesh and bone". Thematically, I still consider this to be dead matter. It is organic matter that is not living.And carapace has flaws in design, I won't deny that. My point is solely thematically here.

Death magic doesn't have to either interact with dead enemies/allies or "nearly dead" units on the field to have a thematical fit. Death magic is what you described here, being a meat and bone mage. Utilising unliving organic matter, however this might turn out, like minions, bone armor, or whatever.

[Taril.8619]

@"Kodama.6453" said:The key here is "flesh and bone". Thematically, I still consider this to be dead matter. It is organic matter that is not living.And carapace has flaws in design, I won't deny that. My point is solely thematically here.

Death magic doesn't have to either interact with dead enemies/allies or "nearly dead" units on the field to have a thematical fit. Death magic is what you described here, being a meat and bone mage. Utilising unliving organic matter, however this might turn out, like minions, bone armor, or whatever.

Thematically, yes, Death Magic doesn't have to interact with dead enemies or nearly dead units.

However, given the large number of traits that DO affect nearly dead units, it makes the most sense to put them into Death Magic. Since, they're not curses or conditions, so they don't make sense to be in Curses. They're not really anything to do with Soul Reaping (Maybe if there was "Gain Life Force when striking a foe below 50% life" trait?). They typically don't have much to do with Blood Magic, at least in the iteration we have which focuses on Life Siphon and Healing. While Spite... Can be argued to be about "Harming" things but even then it doesn't really have any intrinsic affinity for targets at low health (It's not really any more or less spiteful for a target to be below a certain health threshold).

Meanwhile, Death Magic has a potential thematic for being stronger versus targets that are closer to death and so more susceptible to magic that manipulates the dead.

Since, this particular overhaul wasn't me designing 5 completely new specializations for Necro from scratch, it was merely me shuffling around traits and then changing some effects to suit the new location if the previous iteration of the trait didn't fit or literally wouldn't work (I.e. The Carapace traits from Death Magic don't work unless you have the entire Carapace mechanic)

IF I was to design specializations from scratch, I very much could have utilized some other themes and mechanics such as Bone Shields, Flesh Shields, Grasping hands etc in its design.

[Kodama.6453]

@"Taril.8619" said:

Looking at all possible translations for the word spite, I think that they probably went with another definition than you are using for your concept.You said that spite can be about annoying someone and such, but I doubt that is what they meant.

I think spite actually refers to the sadistic side of necromancers. Less "annoying" and more "torturing", maliciousness, malevolence, etc.If that is the definition they went with, then I think having a trait that improves damage against targets with low health makes sense. Imagine a necromancer with a sadistic character. What would a wounded enemy invoke in such a personality? Their sadism kicks in and they come after you with even more cruelty than before.

Which makes thematical sense, even more in my opinion than putting it in death magic. Because as I said, death magic is about interacting with dead matter. The wounded enemy is not dead yet.

[Taril.8619]

@"Kodama.6453" said:Looking at all possible translations for the word spite, I think that they probably went with another definition than you are using for your concept.You said that spite can be about annoying someone and such, but I doubt that is what they meant.

I think spite actually refers to the sadistic side of necromancers. Less "annoying" and more "torturing", maliciousness, malevolence, etc.If that is the definition they went with, then I think having a trait that improves damage against targets with low health makes sense. Imagine a necromancer with a sadistic character. What would a wounded enemy invoke in such a personality? Their sadism kicks in and they come after you with even more cruelty than before.

Link to this definition?

I've checked Cambridge, Collins, Macmillan and Merriam-Webster dictionaries and none of them have that meaning. They have maliciousness as a synonym, but not a definition.

The closest I've seen is M-W whereby Spite can be: to treat maliciously (as by shaming or thwarting)

"As by shaming or thwarting" - That sounds more like weakening enemies with debuffs and being tanky enough to ignore (Or "Thwart") their attacks.

@"Kodama.6453" said:Which makes thematical sense, even more in my opinion than putting it in death magic. Because as I said, death magic is about interacting with dead matter. The wounded enemy is not dead yet.

But again, the game has already utilized "Close to death" as a manifestation of death manipulation in Signet of Agony which uses the fact that you're close to death (Downed) as reasoning for being able to use Mursaat (Mist) magic.

Also, a wounded enemy can be considered partially dead. Depending on the severity of the wounds some of their bodily functions and organs can be shutting down, emulating the effect of death.

[Kodama.6453]

@Taril.8619 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Looking at all possible translations for the word spite, I think that they probably went with another definition than you are using for your concept.You said that spite can be about annoying someone and such, but I doubt that is what they meant.

I think spite actually refers to the

sadistic

side of necromancers. Less "annoying" and more "torturing", maliciousness, malevolence, etc.If that is the definition they went with, then I think having a trait that improves damage against targets with low health makes sense. Imagine a necromancer with a sadistic character. What would a wounded enemy invoke in such a personality? Their sadism kicks in and they come after you with even more cruelty than before.

Link to this definition?

I've checked Cambridge, Collins, Macmillan and Merriam-Webster dictionaries and none of them have that meaning. They have maliciousness as a synonym, but not a definition.

The closest I've seen is M-W whereby Spite can be:

to treat maliciously (as by shaming or thwarting)

"As by shaming or thwarting" - That sounds more like weakening enemies with debuffs and being tanky enough to ignore (Or "Thwart") their attacks.

@"Kodama.6453" said:Which makes thematical sense, even more in my opinion than putting it in death magic. Because as I said, death magic is about interacting with dead matter. The wounded enemy is not dead yet.

But again, the game has already utilized "Close to death" as a manifestation of death manipulation in Signet of Agony which uses the fact that you're close to death (Downed) as reasoning for being able to use Mursaat (Mist) magic.

Also, a wounded enemy can be considered partially dead. Depending on the severity of the wounds some of their bodily functions and organs can be shutting down, emulating the effect of death.

The definition you found yourself for spite: the desire to hurt, annoy or offend someone.Sadism is if you are getting pleasure from hurting other people.

Now why would you desire to hurt someone?Getting pleasure from it (sadism) could be one possible interpretation in this scenario.And I think this is what they meant here.

Think about it like this: spite can mean alot of different things. As in your definition, "desire to hurt, annoy or offend someone".If sadism means you get pleasure from hurting other people, then sadism should actually always be spiteful....Because if you get pleasure from hurting people, this means you do desire it. We desire what gives us pleasure, that is natural (even if we can actively decide against what we desire).

Especially if you look at the common use of thematics like pain, suffering, etc.Torturing and sadism seems like a thematical focal point for me in the spite trait line.

Not entirely sure if we can use signet of agony as an argument here... it is a skill that is available for every class. Do you imply that every class in the game is utilising death magic?

[Taril.8619]

@Kodama.6453 said:The definition you found yourself for spite: the desire to hurt, annoy or offend someone.Sadism is if you are getting pleasure from hurting other people.Now why would you desire to hurt someone?Getting pleasure from it (sadism) could be one possible interpretation in this scenario.And I think this is what they meant here.

Sadism is a possible interpretation, for feeling Spiteful. But if they were going for Sadism, they should have called it Sadism.

Since Sadism and Spite are two completely different things.

Sadism is a possible reason for feeling spiteful, but not the only reason. Spite in of itself has nothing to do with sadism since you can feel spiteful without being a sadist and thus getting pleasure from causing the pain to others.

@Kodama.6453 said:Especially if you look at the common use of thematics like pain, suffering, etc.Torturing and sadism seems like a thematical focal point for me in the spite trait line.

In some trait names, sure. I.e. Awaken the Pain and Signets of Suffering.

But in the actual trait effects? There's little to do with Torture or Sadism there.

• Reaper's Might? Gain Might from using Shroud skill 1? Nothing torturous or sadistic about that (If it was Shroud skill 5 then maybe you'd be onto something with Tainted Shackles due to it inflicting Torment)
• Spiteful Talisman? Deal more damage to foes without boons? Nothing here. Maybe if it was dealing damage when you stripped/corrupted boons then sure, that'd be torture.
• Spiteful Renewal? Consume conditions to gain health when using a healing skill? Nope.
• Bitter Chill? Nope.
• Death's Embrace? Maybe you could argue it's torture because you're enhancing the pain the target feels?
• Chill of Death? Again, maybe torture because you're dealing bonus damage for stripping boons?
• Awaken the Pain? Nope.
• Dread? Yes, this can be considered torture. Dealing more damage to foes that are Feared and making them take more damage when you cause Fear.
• Siphoned Power? Yes, this can be considered Sadism, since you're getting rewarded for causing damage.
• Signets of Suffering? No. In fact, they don't even cause suffering since it's only their passives (I.e. Positive effects for yourself) that are being enhanced, not their actives.
• Close to Death? No. Torture relies on prolonging the pain, ending their suffering quicker is the opposite of what you want.
• Spiteful Spirit? No.

@Kodama.6453 said:Not entirely sure if we can use signet of agony as an argument here... it is a skill that is available for every class. Do you imply that every class in the game is utilising death magic?

Yes. Also, I'm not implying it, the game literally tells you. The guy in Lake Doric tells you about it, how they put Mursaat magic into a Signet but it only works when you're close to death and so have a connection with the mists.

It implies that Signets don't require an affinity for the magic they have stored in them, i.e. We don't need to be Mursaat nor Necromancers in order to use the death magic contained in the signet. We just need to be able to draw the power required for the magic in them (In this case, being able to draw from the mists)

It also implies that Signet of Agony should be usable whenever by Revenants who channel the Mists for their skills, but we'll let ANet figure their way out of that hole.