Damage (running the numbers)

Heya everyone, ive read the wiki page about damage (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage), (we will leave condi damage aside in this discussion please, thats not where im struggling) numerous times.the thing is, im still finding it hard to understand what exactly is going on there, further more some of the formulas there dosent add up for me(im not a math genius just a simple guy trying to figure out what goes where) for example :

Skill coefficient

The skill-specific coefficient is not shown in the game. It is computed as follows:

Skill-specific coefficient = 2597 (tooltip damage) / (weapon strength Power)

it seems weird to me (unless i understand this wrongly) that the more power u have the lower skill coefficient u get??

I am also having hard time figuring out where does crit damage and various affects that add +% to damage come in?another question that bugs me, where will i see more benefit? from a +% to damage affect or from a +(number) to might? and wheres the breaking point for each?

Im sure talking about it will stir more questions for me ^^ so i will gladly read what you have to say, and please if you could add an example to an explanation/point you are making it will help me a lot in understanding it.

Thanks upfront and lets learn more about damage :smile:

I think the skill tooltips have incorrect information when it comes to damage, at least number wise on the tooltip.

The above formula is derived from the base Damage Done formula, i.e.

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

Where target's Armor is 2597, i.e.

Tooltip DamageAt level 80, the opponent Armor value used to calculate the tooltip's direct damage is 2597.

ThereforeDamage done * 2597 = Weapon strength * Power * skill-specific coefficient

Which can finally be rearranged to the following to find skill-specific coefficientskill-specific coefficient = (Damage * 2597) / (Weapon strength * Power)

Consider the later descriptive line, i.e.

Skill coefficient: Every skill has a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted. Listed by the () after tool tip listed on wiki pages, not shown in-game however.

Therefore, it can be surmised that the formula for skill-specific coefficient is used to determine said coefficients, for the purpose of the Wiki.

For understanding damage bonus, you have understand how the game does filters, and the split between base damage dealt and damage mitigation (aka defenses).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage_calculationDamage = (Skill damage Positive multipliers) / (Armor Negative multipliers)

Damage multipliers combine in a multiplicative fashion rather than additive; i.e. they stack on top of each other instead of being calculated separately. For example, the Superior Sigil of Force (5%), Superior Sigil of the Night (10%), a 10% trait, a 20% trait and the (6) bonus of the Superior Rune of the Scholar (10%) combine for a final damage bonus of 1.05 1.1 1.1 1.2 1.1 ≈ 1.677 or approximately 67.7%.

However, the italics section is not 100% true, as certain buffs and affects are applied in a different order... these anomalies have been noted by Wiki researchers, but seems to be very case specific. That said, the significance of this is very low, unless theres a specific trigger condition that will raise the question. Incidentally, Crit chance and Crit dmg trait bonuses are among those anomalies, as most are worded to be additive to their respective values, rather then multiplicative.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Right-Hand_StrengthCritical Chance Increase: 15%

• Adds a flat % to crit chance, same as Fury

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_Strike_(trait)Critical Damage Increase: 7%Boonless Critical Damage Increase: 14%

• Flat increase to Crit Damage value

To make it even more confusing, another description with ambigous meaninghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twin_Fangs"Deal increased critical damage while your health is above the threshold. Gain bonus critical-hit chance when hitting a foe from behind or the side."From Notes: "Despite the description, this trait does not increase your critical damage stat, rather the damage dealt by critical hits by 7%, which makes the trait much stronger than described."

• This is a damage modifier that applies to the total output value, but only applies when the strike is a critical hit.

Once all the offensive calculations are done, it outputs a Raw Damage value for the attack. That Raw damage is then handed off to incoming damage calculations, which are then subsequently reduced by defenses values (Armor, Protection, Damage Reduction, etc). The output of that second phase of calculations is the total damage dealt to Health, unless further modified by specific effects. Full-Counter is an example of Special Effect modifier not seen in normal damage calculations, were it reduces the incoming damage to 0, regardless of other modifiers. This is a good point to note, as normal defense calculations can only reduce damage to a minimum of 1.

If you want to do your own testing, Ambient creatures make good test subjects, as they have a 0 armor value.

Thanks for the response and info! :DFew questions, i see now how they got to that "skill-specific coefficient" (thanks for explaining) but something still bothers me, because looking at that formula it looks like that increasing your power will lower your skill-specific coefficient, as it will make the denominator bigger and bigger?

one more question please :D(thanks for the explanation of how damage is calculated)so positive multipliers like sigil of force come into this category, but where does ferocity come into play? is it apllied after the positive multipliers? or before? other?

@Menifa.1976 said:because looking at that formula it looks like that increasing your power will lower your skill-specific coefficient, as it will make the denominator bigger and bigger?

Increasing your power will increase your tooltip damage. Dividing by power corrects for this, allowing you to figure out what the damage is before power gets applied.

In other words, increasing power will increase the numerator by exactly the same ratio as it increased the denominator, because skill coefficient is completely independent of your stats.

@"Menifa.1976" .1976 said:Thanks for the response and info! :DFew questions, i see now how they got to that "skill-specific coefficient" (thanks for explaining) but something still bothers me, because looking at that formula it looks like that increasing your power will lower your skill-specific coefficient, as it will make the denominator bigger and bigger?

errr.... no. The "skill-specific coefficient" formula is a thing the Wiki uses to derive what the value is, based on a bench mark (1000 power) Tool Tip, and the known armor value of Practice Golem in the PvP lobby. The Devs have NOT disclosed the coefficient values directly, and the Tool tips are maintained separately from the actual skills..... so disparities have occurred in the past. The formula is consistent if you properly reverse engineer the things that can affect the tool tip values.

Math wise, the Coefficients are consistent as it will scale its partner value linearly. Attack skills tend to have fractional coefficients, because the combined weapon power and power stat value result in numbers much larger then incoming defense and HP scales are meant to handle. If we remove the coefficient (or just assume a value of 1), the base damage of most Berserker builds is 2.5 Million damage WITHOUT a critical hit. Adjusted for base line defense the damage is 962, which is about what most people expect for an auto attack without boons or traits. If we incorporate might and passive traits to get a baseline power of 3000, 200% crit damage, and Force/10/GotL/Scholar common modifier set (which is like 8 million damage), and then divide by the base line defense, a Berserker critical hit has a typical damage of 3228.... which is a pretty big number for a single hit. The average HP pool for PvP is 21,522 HP (Mauraders). So that 3.2k hit is 15% of your total HP, taking 7 auto attack hits to kill you. Glass cannons (11k HP) will die in 4 hits.

one more question please :D(thanks for the explanation of how damage is calculated)so positive multipliers like sigil of force come into this category, but where does ferocity come into play? is it apllied after the positive multipliers? or before? other?

Like in the example above, Critical hits are applied as part of the positive multipliers section of the formula. Crit damage as displayed in the stats window is a little misleading, as its scaling the base value by factors ranging from 1.5 (150%) to 2.3 (230%). A 10% bonus from a Sigil is 1.1.

Now Ferocity itself modifies the Critical Damage value. You can have to look at the relationship as Primary Attributes and Secondary (or derived) attributes. Primary attributes adjust secondary values (Base Damage is technically a secondary attribute), while secondary attributes are the numbers we actually care about. Expertise is a Primary Attribute, which converts into Condition Duration %, or the number we actually understand.

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"Menifa.1976" .1976 said:Thanks for the response and info! :DFew questions, i see now how they got to that "skill-specific coefficient" (thanks for explaining) but something still bothers me, because looking at that formula it looks like that increasing your power will lower your skill-specific coefficient, as it will make the denominator bigger and bigger?

The coefficients are available through the API. It's the dmg_multiplier property https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/API:2/skills#Damagehttps://api.guildwars2.com/v2/skills?ids=42745

Sorry for the bump, i was away.just wanted to thank you all for all the help and info and clearing out this confusing topic for me :D (im not a wiki editor but i think adding some examples to the explanations would have helped a lot :) )

thank guys !