Fun bruiser herald build for pvp

I've been messing around with different rev builds for pvp, trying to make dwarf stance work. Looking for thoughts on the build. Been having some success with this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAsemn3gWNSuQrJRbo/ksP0gS4I6QJ4EdrklZlhNmc+RNgEawe6r3G-jZxHABns/w3nAA6LDo8TAAgDBAA

I take invocation trait line over devastation because I find myself split about 50/50 between staff and sword, and spend a lot of time with hammers going while in dwarf, so the % modifiers seem'ed more consistent. Rollling mists is giving you near 100% crit is stronger than any of the devastation final traits imo. You can take charged mists instead of rolling mists for even more tankiness, but I've found I'm already pretty solid defensivly and could use all the extra damage I can get. Retribution is generally considered bad, and it is, but I take it because the difference with right of the great dwarf affecting condi damage as well is huge. Also dwarvern battle training is actually a pretty solid trait; in this world of perma boon corruption, this takes the edge off being in a near constant state of weakness. Weakening another foe using power will also make you tankier. In the herald trait line, I take hardening persistence really to see how much of a difference having high armor actually makes. Combined with the paladin amulet, shield, and rune, you'd think you'd be quite sturdy vs power right? I do not take soothing bastion because this stupid trait will often interrupt yourself and get you killed more often then help. Also it has negative synergy with the trait that gives you right of the great dwarf... Like cool, I can waste 3 seconds of my 50% reduction blocking. It's shield benefit is also pretty useless.

I feel like bruiser herald has potential to be pretty strong, if they would just un nerf the retribution trait line and a few weapon skills. It's been nice actually having survivability with rev, I'm used to having to be careful to stay on the outside of the fight looking for opportunities to go in and strike, else I just die instantly. Usually I take hammer with regular herald, since you can't get close to scourges ranged is the only way to deal with them. But with a tankier build taking staff again has been nice. Condi cleanse is still non exist-ant, but having the % damage reductions do a good job of keeping you alive, and the fact that they can't be stripped or corrupted like demon resistance makes them even better.

I'm actually considering dropping shield completely for oh sword or axe. I find I actually rarely even use shield skills. Not only does rooting yourself suck, but I never realized how energy expensive it is to root yourself. 30 energy to use both shield skills is crazy. Shield is a little overkill defensively in most situations, but dropping it removes another panic button and another source of protection and healing. I wish there was some sort of mid ground between the overkill defense of shield and the pure offense of axe... you know like, what if off hand sword had some kind of block on it? Maybe a block that could be recast as an attack after? How dope would that be.

Shield and Shortbow are in my opinion, the worst weapons in the Revenant's repertoire and with this current meta,I would only use hammer+staff.However for the purpose of dealing (some?) psychological damage to enemy players,I would encourage you play with no off hand equiped.

Jokes aside I did something similar to this when sword off hand had it's block on 4, but stubornly refused to use Glint and Shield because, I dislike the mechanics that this traitline brings, I can't bring myself to like it one bit. This was a decent build for me, but honestly Hardening Persistance and Vigorous Persistance should have been Retribution traits and Unwavering Avoidance+Determined Resolution should have been Herald traits! At least then I could have played Bruiser and not use the one trait line I still hate in this class the most.

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:Shield and Shortbow are in my opinion, the worst weapons in the Revenant's repertoire and with this current meta,I would only use hammer+staff.However for the purpose of dealing (some?) psychological damage to enemy players,I would encourage you play with no off hand equiped.

Jokes aside I did something similar to this when sword off hand had it's block on 4, but stubornly refused to use Glint and Shield because, I dislike the mechanics that this traitline brings, I can't bring myself to like it one bit. This was a decent build for me, but honestly Hardening Persistance and Vigorous Persistance should have been Retribution traits and Unwavering Avoidance+Determined Resolution should have been Herald traits! At least then I could have played Bruiser and not use the one trait line I still hate in this class the most.

Heh yea shield and short bow are both terribly designed, worst versions of their weapon types by far. It's like what if you combined warrior and guard shield, but the blocking skill 5 rooted you, and the protection granting skill 4 was slower, clunkier, and did no damage?

Unfortunately since rev the class and herald were created at the same time, rev doesn't feel like it was ever designed to be used without herald, so you are forced to take it no matter what build you're trying to do.

Personaly I think they gutted Retribution and Herald to sell the game easier and that the above fix,was actualy how Revenant was supposed to come out. I also believe shield is simply bad for pvp,where you need to be able to stay mobile.

I was playing around with this in the mists and I honestly do enjoy it, but it hurts to have such low mobility without Shiro. Maybe like you mentioned, OH sword or axe would be better. Have you tried Spirit Boon and Enhanced Bulwark together? I was using that (with Runes of Leadership) and the stab uptime is really impressive. I could see this being a more viable bruiser pre-Scourge, but Scourge dun fucked build diversity up. Regardless though, it is a nice change of pace.

I don't think we had Spirit Boon pre-Scourge and I am hopefull that we might see the scourge fear bomb get banned from wvw and spvp with Scourges complaining that the fear bomb they eat from other Scourges are too damn strong to counter.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I was playing around with this in the mists and I honestly do enjoy it, but it hurts to have such low mobility without Shiro. Maybe like you mentioned, OH sword or axe would be better. Have you tried Spirit Boon and Enhanced Bulwark together? I was using that (with Runes of Leadership) and the stab uptime is really impressive. I could see this being a more viable bruiser pre-Scourge, but Scourge dun kitten build diversity up. Regardless though, it is a nice change of pace.

This is true, the lack of mobility sucks. I've been using sword instead of shield and it's better i think; shield is just so bad.

I have not tried spirit boon in PvP, I'm hesitant to really invest in boon duration since pof, it feels like with so much boon corruption and boon strip makes you lose boons as soon as you get them. I wish i tried it pre scourge lol, would have been fun.

The nice thing is that at least hammers and dwarf elite are condition protections that can't be stripped. I still have trouble dueling a scourge, idk what I can really do differently besides get lucky and block dodge their Insta casts..

I've always hated retribution, but it seems extra crazy to run these days with a bruiser build in any match with a scourge in it (i.e. 95% of them). Every time you evade, you're just asking to get that auto corrupted into fear. :disappointed:

I'd almost say if you really wanna force a bruiser play-style (and don't want to accomplish it with just Devastation+Gearing) to go Salvation just for Eluding Nullification, Blind Spams, and the free toughness. It might not have the Dwarf synergy, but at least it's not actively making you even weaker to things.

@narcx.3570 said:I've always hated retribution, but it seems extra crazy to run these days with a bruiser build in any match with a scourge in it (i.e. 95% of them). Every time you evade, you're just asking to get that auto corrupted into fear. :disappointed:

I'd almost say if you really wanna force a bruiser play-style (and don't want to accomplish it with just Devastation+Gearing) to go Salvation just for Eluding Nullification, Blind Spams, and the free toughness. It might not have the Dwarf synergy, but at least it's not actively making you even weaker to things.

In my opinion there are 3 things that mess up Retribution: Eye for an Eye, Steadfast Rejuvenation and the fact that Enhanced Bulwark is in Herald traitline and not in Retribution traitline.

And this can easily be fixed by removing Eye for an Eye from the game (gaining protection while taunting the guy who CC's you is such a bad ideea,I am amazed this talent has not been removed since HoT era) and puting Steadfast Rejuvenation in it's place. Making Enhanced Bulwark a final tier trait for a retribution is a no brainer, but dodge to get retaliation should swap places with gain stability when you dodge an attack so Steadfast Rejuvenation/Dwarven Battle Training and Vicious Reprisal can see some play.Finaly Crystal Hibernation should trigger on CC not health percentage, however I am not sure what sort of trait should be invented to take the place in the empty spot made by Enhanced Bulwark in the Herald traitline. Idealy I would like something that reduces the cooldown of weapons, but I am not sure how that would fit with the class fantasy Arena net wants for this class....maybe we could move Jade Echo to Herald's final tier traits, then change it to cast Chaotic Release on death and rename the trait Chaotic Echo and put a weapon reducing trait in Devastation?

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@"narcx.3570" said:I've always hated retribution, but it seems extra crazy to run these days with a bruiser build in any match with a scourge in it (i.e. 95% of them). Every time you evade, you're just asking to get that auto corrupted into fear. :disappointed:

I'd almost say if you really wanna force a bruiser play-style (and don't want to accomplish it with just Devastation+Gearing) to go Salvation just for Eluding Nullification, Blind Spams, and the free toughness. It might not have the Dwarf synergy, but at least it's not actively making you even weaker to things.

Yeah, I dunno, to me the problem with Ret is that it's hard to have something and say, "This is your defensive trait line, you'll lose dps, but it will make a difference" and have it have no heals or cleanses... I get that Rev's aren't supposed to cleanse, but realistically its sort of useless without it. Anything the trait line does to reduce incoming damage is ridiculously insignificant compared to just having Facet of Light and your i-frames + the damage you avoid by being able to apply offensive pressure with Devastation or Corruption. If you Compare Ret to like Warrior's Defense line, Ele's Water/Earth lines, or Mesmer's Inspiration, it makes you realize just how little it does. It needs a big time rework thematically, maybe move things like Hardened Persistence there as a Minor trait and add some new stuff like scaling health regeneration when you're low on energy or else something unique and synergistic to the class. Or how about expanding that Dome of the Mists thing to act as a shield against condi application (kind of like breaker's boon denying bubble) instead of projectile denial (which I doubt a single person uses for that.)

I guess Eye for an Eye has always been popular in the WvW scene for how you can pull people off of towers and stuff when they spam aoe cc skills onto the group. But that's whatever, I agree it's kind of dumb... I think they were just excited/unsure of how to work in the new TAUNT mechanic into the game in different ways and this was a miss.

Crystal Hibernation's just... Uhg... They need to let Rev's move when using this skill. It's just silly. Everyone has bajillion unblockable attacks now, the heal got hyper-nerfed, and it's hella expensive to use... It wouldn't be op at all for it to be a moving block. Or give it a second cast that teleports you 800 units backwards or something, so you can choose to escape the inevitable surrounding that comes with using it. The traited version's even stupider because you can't cancel out of it. It's borderline useless for anything except kiting Deimos and holding a node if sPvP against VERY SPECIFIC AND RARE matchups. Or give it something, anything, to make it interesting and good again... Here's a cool idea if they don't want to make it move, how about every attack you block with it restores 5 energy. Then people would have a reason to even think about using a shield again. And it sort of fits with the come at me bro counter strike style of what rev once was.

@"narcx.3570" said:Yeah, I dunno, to me the problem with Ret is that it's hard to have something and say, "This is your defensive trait line, you'll lose dps, but it will make a difference" and have it have no heals or cleanses... I get that Rev's aren't supposed to cleanse, but realistically its sort of useless without it. Anything the trait line does to reduce incoming damage is ridiculously insignificant compared to just having Facet of Light and your i-frames + the damage you avoid by being able to apply offensive pressure with Devastation or Corruption. If you Compare Ret to like Warrior's Defense line, Ele's Water/Earth lines, or Mesmer's Inspiration, it makes you realize just how little it does. It needs a big time rework thematically, maybe move things like Hardened Persistence there as a Minor trait and add some new stuff like scaling health regeneration when you're low on energy or else something unique and synergistic to the class. Or how about expanding that Dome of the Mists thing to act as a shield against condi application (kind of like breaker's boon denying bubble) instead of projectile denial (which I doubt a single person uses for that.)

I guess Eye for an Eye has always been popular in the WvW scene for how you can pull people off of towers and stuff when they spam aoe cc skills onto the group. But that's whatever, I agree it's kind of dumb... I think they were just excited/unsure of how to work in the new TAUNT mechanic into the game in different ways and this was a miss.

Crystal Hibernation's just... Uhg... They need to let Rev's move when using this skill. It's just silly. Everyone has bajillion unblockable attacks now, the heal got hyper-nerfed, and it's hella expensive to use... It wouldn't be op at all for it to be a moving block. Or give it a second cast that teleports you 800 units backwards or something, so you can choose to escape the inevitable surrounding that comes with using it. The traited version's even stupider because you can't cancel out of it. It's borderline useless for anything except kiting Deimos and holding a node if sPvP against VERY SPECIFIC AND RARE matchups. Or give it something, anything, to make it interesting and good again... Here's a cool idea if they don't want to make it move, how about every attack you block with it restores 5 energy. Then people would have a reason to even think about using a shield again. And it sort of fits with the come at me bro counter strike style of what rev once was.

I disagree on shield 5 for one reason - shield was never meant to be an sPvP weapon, it's just a PvE weapon. The whole purpose of shield 5 is to have a panic button for when you f-up a boss mechanic. And shield 4 is the second cheapest source of Protection application, followed by Ventari heal skill when traited with Bolster Fortification. Shield 4 could still see play in WvW on a Shiro/Ventari Herald

I am not too familiar with WvW scene, howeve a quick google search does show Hammer Heralds use Eye for an Eye when they don't need the damage from Devastation traitline. Outside of leveling in groups as a generic mmo tank and WvW, Retribution provides some lackluster tier 3 traits and Eye for an Eye,which I am now convinced is a WvW exclusive trait.

Overall I feel Retribution traitline looses a lot by not having Enhanced Bulwark in place of Steadfast Rejuvenation and that loss impacts core Revenant as well since we are denied any beefy bruiser build outside of Herald, which is bad for me because I hate the mechanics of Dragon Stance.

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@"narcx.3570" said:Yeah, I dunno, to me the problem with Ret is that it's hard to have something and say, "This is your defensive trait line, you'll lose dps, but it will make a difference" and have it have no heals or cleanses... I get that Rev's aren't supposed to cleanse, but realistically its sort of useless without it. Anything the trait line does to reduce incoming damage is ridiculously insignificant compared to just having Facet of Light and your i-frames + the damage you avoid by being able to apply offensive pressure with Devastation or Corruption. If you Compare Ret to like Warrior's Defense line, Ele's Water/Earth lines, or Mesmer's Inspiration, it makes you realize just how little it does. It needs a big time rework thematically, maybe move things like Hardened Persistence there as a Minor trait and add some new stuff like scaling health regeneration when you're low on energy or else something unique and synergistic to the class. Or how about expanding that Dome of the Mists thing to act as a shield against condi application (kind of like breaker's boon denying bubble) instead of projectile denial (which I doubt a single person uses for that.)

I guess Eye for an Eye has always been popular in the WvW scene for how you can pull people off of towers and stuff when they spam aoe cc skills onto the group. But that's whatever, I agree it's kind of dumb... I think they were just excited/unsure of how to work in the new TAUNT mechanic into the game in different ways and this was a miss.

Crystal Hibernation's just... Uhg... They need to let Rev's move when using this skill. It's just silly. Everyone has bajillion unblockable attacks now, the heal got hyper-nerfed, and it's hella expensive to use... It wouldn't be op at all for it to be a moving block. Or give it a second cast that teleports you 800 units backwards or something, so you can choose to escape the inevitable surrounding that comes with using it. The traited version's even stupider because you can't cancel out of it. It's borderline useless for anything except kiting Deimos and holding a node if sPvP against VERY SPECIFIC AND RARE matchups. Or give it something, anything, to make it interesting and good again... Here's a cool idea if they don't want to make it move, how about every attack you block with it restores 5 energy. Then people would have a reason to even think about using a shield again. And it sort of fits with the come at me bro counter strike style of what rev once was.

If shield is supposed to be a pve weapon then I don't think the devs know how pve is played in this game. Every shield has a block, yet nobody except chrono ever uses a shield because pve is all about pure dps. Chronos is used because it provides buffs, cc, and even damage. No one is going to give up dps just for a block and a couple seconds of protection. Rev especially is giving up even more than most classes because it's block also costs a whopping 20 energy, draining it's ability to use damage skills.

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

I disagree on shield 5 for one reason - shield was never meant to be an sPvP weapon, it's just a PvE weapon.

Shield is the best off hand weapon for PvP is you're playing in a conformed team (taking for granted that teams in PvP do still exists), even after the nerfs. Axe and sword are more used because most people is playing alone with 0 team support which makes the shield useless (it roots, you making you vulnerable to conditions and corruption, and without cleanses from your team is game over). The problem with the shield is that at the HoT release the Revenat has strong dps, strong sustain and the condi damage was moderate, so even without condi cleansing Rev was able to kill before being killing and endure some punishment, whereas currently the Rev damage is weak, the sustain is moderate, the condition damage is huge and the class has the same lacks in terms of condition cleansing (or worse, because the amount of corruption/unblockables in the game is now insane).

Arena net has always given most of it's attention to PvE and Herald Shield with Legendary Dwarf Stance were their attempts at streamlining pve making it similar to the likes of WoW (divine shield from shield 5 ,taunt and auras from jallis - tank revenant was supposed to be the equivalent of protection paladin from WoW,dear lads).

While I can respect your opinions that shield has turned into a decent pvp weapon for structured play (despite the protests of many regarding the root on shield 5) I will always place take into account Arena net's detachment from the GW2 community (for good reasons-some of us are more toxic than uranium) and lack of interest towards community feedback (especialy so for sPvP community who really get the stick as opposed to WvWers and PvErs) when determining how Arena net wants us to use their weapons over forum and player feedback (which is something Anet will po op on,especialy if a weapon isn't working out the way they want it).

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:Arena net has always given most of it's attention to PvE and Herald Shield with Legendary Dwarf Stance were their attempts at streamlining pve making it similar to the likes of WoW (divine shield from shield 5 ,taunt and auras from jallis - tank revenant was supposed to be the equivalent of protection paladin from WoW,dear lads).

While I can respect your opinions that shield has turned into a decent pvp weapon for structured play (despite the protests of many regarding the root on shield 5) I will always place take into account Arena net's detachment from the GW2 community (for good reasons-some of us are more toxic than uranium) and lack of interest towards community feedback (especialy so for sPvP community who really get the stick as opposed to WvWers and PvErs) when determining how Arena net wants us to use their weapons over forum and player feedback (which is something Anet will po op on,especialy if a weapon isn't working out the way they want it).

This sort of enforces my opinion that they are often rushing their elite specs and barely if at all testing them in an effective way. They released chrono at the same time as herald, and any testing would quickly reveal how irrelevant chrono makes any thought of another class being a tank. Here's a class that provides permanent uptime on two buffs that no other class can provide, on top of having numerous defensive skills that using doesn't even interrupt their ability to poop out buffs that drastically increase group success to the point of being completely mandatory. And then there's tank herald, whos defensive skills do no damage and provides nothing but basic boons like fury and might.

@Flauvious.6195 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:Arena net has always given most of it's attention to PvE and Herald Shield with Legendary Dwarf Stance were their attempts at streamlining pve making it similar to the likes of WoW (divine shield from shield 5 ,taunt and auras from jallis - tank revenant was supposed to be the equivalent of protection paladin from WoW,dear lads).

While I can respect your opinions that shield has turned into a decent pvp weapon for structured play (despite the protests of many regarding the root on shield 5) I will always place take into account Arena net's detachment from the GW2 community (for good reasons-some of us are more toxic than uranium) and lack of interest towards community feedback (especialy so for sPvP community who really get the stick as opposed to WvWers and PvErs) when determining how Arena net wants us to use their weapons over forum and player feedback (which is something Anet will po op on,especialy if a weapon isn't working out the way they want it).

Define effective way? Effective for PvE - something tells me they might test that, but I don't think the same amount of quality control goes into WvW, however I am 110% convinced that no thoughts what so ever are given into sPvP, reason being you don't need to gear grind for Spvp and in WvW zerg's there are enough people to condi cleanse, heal etc the damage guys as well as maintain some level of cordination - the kind we don't see in most sPvP mathces.