My tests on Condition based Mirage in raids (so far)

Today I was able to do some testing of Mirage in raids in a group that can normally full clear raids and I would consider above average compared to other teams, although not on speedclearing levels. I was able to test for wings 1/2/4 (not Deimos). I decided not to test this on Wing 3 as I felt the fights there were unfavourable for this build. I do have logs but I don't normally post them in public without permission.

The Buildhttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAna3fnsICVohNoB2LDMMjlVDz/A2AngldgiTAAdLcGqCA-jxhHQB16JAQP1fAwJBgc6HIoyvyt/gGVC2OQAYVVBbbbNtttttSBsoyK-eI haven't given Scepter/Pistol & Scepter/Torch a proper test yet as I was missing an important sigil on the scepter, but the damage did drop because you can't activate the axe trait anymore.

General skill usage

• Opening: Use Phantasmal Mage, The Prestige, weapon swap, Phantasmal Duelist, Signet of the Ether, Phantasmal Duelist. After your second weapon swap into Axe/Pistol, summon a third duelist.
• Continuous: Weapon swap off cooldown to trigger Sigil of Geomancy. Use The Prestige and Crystal Sands on cooldown, but be careful not to interrupt them. Use Jaunt off cooldown, and dodge when able to to trigger Dune Cloak. Fill in between with AA on axe (do not resummon phantasms unless they get destroyed).

Typical Overall Damage on the 4 million HP golem with QT's benchmark standards (with gear as specified in the build):No Permanent Vigor: Around 31500 DPSPermanent Vigor: Around 33000 DPSThis is reliant on being able to stay in melee range, which is not always possible due to mechanics.

My Personal Comments: This is an improvement over the 30000 DPS for power mesmer, but not as good as some other common condition damage classes (eg daredevil/warrior/engineer). The rotation is also fairly simple and has built in evades to the rotation and someone fairly new could pick this build up (though I still thing power mesmer is easier). However, the Mirage Cloak dodge works quite differently and players will need to get used to this on the actual bosses. For me, the damage was good enough to do some viability testing.

Spirit ValeVale Guardian:Mirage is usable as a condition damage class here, although I did not test for viability on a green circle group. You can dodge the blue circles easily with Mirage Cloak, allowing you to keep up your damage. Mirage Cloak does not give you immunity to green circle failure. (In contrast, Power Mesmer can self-distort failed greens or blue circles with Signet of Midnight, or use Blurred Frenzy). However, due to the splits, you'll often lose your illusions, meaning you'll need to build your damage back up again. Also, Mirage is easily beaten by power based classes (eg Dragonhunter) even if your rotation is optimised because of the lower armor rating for Vale Guardian. Some further testing could be done on green circles, with Scepter as an alternative weapon.

Condition Mirage is usable, and can put out decent damage, although it lacks general support for this fight. In addition, it takes some time to build up your damage.

GorsevalMirage has enough damage to use to no-updrafts strategy, and can easily avoid slams/eggs. However, it is weak during the spirit phase. If you summon new illusions on the spirits, your damage at the next phase will be reduced, whereas if you don't your cleave damage will be quite weak.

Again, condition mirage is usable here, but you can do better on other condition based classes with similar difficulty level (eg condi daredevil/tempest/berserker). This also does not provide any orb clear.

SabethaI did not test Mirage for cannons, and feel that testing it is not worth it due to illusions providing a large portion of damage. The main problem here is that your illusions go away during the splits and sometimes they can be destroyed by other enemies during the fight. Switching the target of your illusions with Axe 3 is risky when Sabetha returns due to Flamewall, as it places you at a random position around Sabetha.

It's usable, but easily beaten by other non-cannon damage players.

Salvation PassSlothasorI do not think Mirage is a suitable build here. The first problem is that your illusions get destroyed fairly often (either by mechanics or slublings). The second problem is that you have really bad cleave damage and your conditions get cleared every 20%. Another possible issue is dodging, since you no longer dodge roll you can get caught in AoEs. You do have Jaunt though to move out of bad situations. This may take getting used to.

You can do better on another class with good cleave damage for a similar amount of effort.

Bandit TrioCondition Necromancer should easily beat a mirage in terms of usability. Lack of cleave and burst damage isn't helpful. (The same can be said for escort).

MatthiasMirage (with Feedback) performed OK, although due to mechanics there are times where being in melee range is difficult. This may need some more testing using a Scepter as an alternate weapon to determine if Mirage is better than core condition mesmer here, as I only tested using Axe. I don't want to make any conclusions on this yet until more testing is done.

Bastion of the Penitent (non-CM)CairnI think Mirage has the potential to be used in an optimal composition, provided that your group's damage is very high so that Cairn doesn't move around much. If Cairn starts moving around your damage will drop as you lack range with the build. Still, this fight is much more favourable for Mirage compared to others.

Mursaat OverseerGiven how easy it is to pull off the same rotation on the test golem, Mirage is definitely viable here. Whether it is one of the most optimal is another question, but I think more testing needs to be done on the other elite specialisations introduced recently.

SamarogThe split phase still causes issues with your illusions and the boss is generally handled better by burst damage, which Mirage lacks in a raid scenario. I don't have enough information yet to make any reasonable conclusions on how it compares to other classes though.

Overall Conclusions so farMirage could be potentially useful for Wing 4 in particular, and usable in other bosses, although I don't think it'll be standard for any parts of Wing 3. The build is fairly easy to learn, slightly harder than Power or Condition Mesmer, but easier than other classes. The main issue that the build has is similar to core mesmer, where the damage is highly dependent on illusions. In addition players will need to get used to dodging working differently.

I think further testing should be done with Scepter to examine if this change makes Condition Mirage more effective on bosses where you can't be in melee range consistently, and with groups with different skill levels to investigate how it typically performs with a newer group compared to a more experienced group. In addition, the damage rotation may have further room for improvement regarding skill timing.

(Side note: I think newer raiding groups could be more effective with more simple builds such as this build and core mesmer, based on analytics data. My view is that players should find the most effective build for them and the encounter, rather than try to replicate something else they saw without understanding it.)

Thanks for sharing,Have you tried using Axe 3 to transfer your Phantasms to the Ghosts on split phase on Gorseval? or are they too farCould make Mirage much more effective there if it worked.Same for Sabetha, for the Champs

@tasmaniajones.4376 said:Today I was able to do some testing of Mirage in raids in a group that can normally full clear raids and I would consider above average compared to other teams, although not on speedclearing levels. I was able to test for wings 1/2/4 (not Deimos). I decided not to test this on Wing 3 as I felt the fights there were unfavourable for this build. I do have logs but I don't normally post them in public without permission.

Typical Overall Damage on the 4 million HP golem with QT's benchmark standards (with gear as specified in the build):No Permanent Vigor: Around 31500 DPSPermanent Vigor: Around 33000 DPSThis is reliant on being able to stay in melee range, which is not always possible due to mechanics.

My Personal Comments: This is an improvement over the 30000 DPS for power mesmer, but not as good as some other common condition damage classes (eg daredevil/warrior/engineer). The rotation is also fairly simple and has built in evades to the rotation and someone fairly new could pick this build up (though I still thing power mesmer is easier). However, the Mirage Cloak dodge works quite differently and players will need to get used to this on the actual bosses. For me, the damage was good enough to do some viability testing.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, you clocked condi mirage with a/p at 33k DPS on the golem? That's 33k, which is greater than 30k?

@tasmaniajones.4376You know on splits where a boss leaves the arena (VG, Sabetha, KC) your illusions don't die (and attack closest targets). As a Mirage, if you retarget they will die (vs VG and KC), but you can use this to your advantage during Gorseval and Samarog (you can use Axe3 on an invuln target, just be careful to stand out of range vs Sam or you'll suicide).

Also what were your real DPS values (not benchmarked)?

rune and sigils?

@Hot Boy.7138 said:rune and sigils?

Read the original post...There's a link for the build.

@Nighthelm.6427 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:rune and sigils?

thanks

Unless you are moving suuuuuper far, phantasms absolutely do not despawn on most raid fights during splits. VG, Samarog, KC, Gorse, and Sabatha never despawn your phantasms as a base power mesmer, so mirages ability to retarget with axe 3 or that utility should help even more.

The only raid bosses that kill phantams are sloth as a slub, mathias sacrifice, and deimos phase shifting.

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:Unless you are moving suuuuuper far, phantasms absolutely do not despawn on most raid fights during splits. VG, Samarog, KC, Gorse, and Sabatha never despawn your phantasms as a base power mesmer, so mirages ability to retarget with axe 3 or that utility should help even more.

Ah, no. The only time you'd want to use retarget is versus Samarog and Gorseval, as they both stay in the arena invulnerable. What this means is your Phantasms will continue attacking them doing no damage. In fights where the enemy disappears, your Phantasms will stay and attack using GW2 "aggro" (typically closest enemy).

If you use retarget vs:

• VG, all your Phantasms will die at the end of the split phase as you won't be able to retarget them onto VG.
• Sabetha, you will have to use another retarget as soon as she reappears, potentially putting you in a flamewall (additionally, your Phants will "latch" onto the sub-boss almost instantly as the adds die fairly quickly).
• KC, your phantasms will die. Spirits die extremely quickly and there's downtime with no targets.

Something to note: When your phantasms automatically latch onto enemies (note, not retarget, but start attacking other targets), they're not tied to those targets and will persist if the target dies.

An example of phantasm latching:

It's not a hard concept to grasp.Step 1: Target leaves arena, but is still alive.Step 2: Phantasms stay alive, proceed to attack with standard "aggro". (Whatever that means.)Step 3: Target enters arena.Step 4: Phantasms proceed to attack their target.

If enemies (not the Phantasms target) die between Step 2 and 3, the Phantasms will persist as their target has not died.

The only reason you want to consider bringing target swap for Gor/Sam is because the split phases can last a decent amount of time with bad groups, causing you to have a significant damage loss. Ideally in Gorseval, it wouldn't matter because you'd have to run Axe and IA to keep the Phantasms alive. Sam will still benefit from Axe as there's enough time to switch them onto Guldhem and then back onto Samarog (do not put them onto Rigom unless he's stacked because your group is bad).

Last note: You can use Axe3 while out of range of a target, and even on invulnerable targets. The illusion retarget mechanic will still kick in as long as the skill went off. This is important otherwise you'll suicide switching targets onto Samarog. Also note that IA cannot be cast while out of range.

Few Updates:

• I got around to testing Scepter over Axe (using the same sigil/stats). It's not too much of a damage loss (only around 2k, still giving you more than base condition mesmer) but it requires better timing (you can interrupt skills if you're not careful). When you use Mirage Cloak (either Dodge or from Crystal Sands) make sure not to interrupt the ambush skill, otherwise you waste 1 second.
• There was an error with stat boosting traits/food in the last update. This doesn't affect the damage too much but it is slightly lower.
• I used permanent vigor in all of my testing. You can have up to 50% uptime from Critical Infusion, and if you have Druids with traited Sun Spirit and a boonsharing Chronomancer with Signet of Inspiration you can make up the difference.

Sample Damage Logs on the Golem (not optimised completely yet, this mainly uses skills off cooldown unless they would interrupt an important skill)

• Buffs Chosen: Standard buffs that QT used for testing, except swiftness was replaced with vigor.
• Axe: https://dps.report/0tRf-20170925-125019_golem
• Scepter: https://dps.report/QuQo-20170925-130234_golem

I might test Wing 1 and Samarog again. I was aware that the illusions didn't despawn during splits but not sure if they would target anything else.

Note: Scepter as a weapon is slightly easier to ambush with than Axe. Axe Ambush will reset the auto chain whereas Scepter will delay it.

@Esplen.3940 said:Note: Scepter as a weapon is slightly easier to ambush with than Axe. Axe Ambush will reset the auto chain whereas Scepter will delay it.

It's stupid that axe ambush interrupts the chain which is already rather slow. Maybe it wouldn't be such a problem if axe ambush wasn't so garbage. I like the idea of seeking axes, but its effect is just too weak.

I was able to get a few tests in Wing 1 done over the last week which have acceptable results (from my PoV). I can't provide the full interactive logs due to potential privacy issues but I will specify mechanics where it is important to avoid misinterpretation of the logs. These screenshots are from GW2Raidar (big numbers give actual stats, while small numbers give the average stats for logs on the site).

All tests were done using Axe as the mainhand. I don't have a log on Gorseval available yet as the log I have is not indicative of a typical clear group run.

Vale Guardian

Here the warrior and chronomancer in group 2 and both druids were assigned to green circles. I only re-summoned phantasms if they were destroyed.

With Mirage you can just dodge the blue circles and keep up your damage, which is one key advantage. This log was also the first Mirage log uploaded for VG. I still think it may need a comparison with power mesmer due to the lower armor rating on the boss. No test with Mirage on green circles yet though.

Sabetha

Tempest and Daredevil were assigned to cannons. I did not have to complete any additional mechanics (no sapper or time bombs). I only re-summoned phantasms if they were destroyed (no target switch during the miniboss phases).

A bit hard to compare here since we really should only be comparing non-cannon DPS against each other. Also, while this build got more damage against the actual boss, it had less cleave damage compared to the dragonhunter.

Mursaat Overseer

Mursaat Overseer's aggro is a bit bugged at the moment which caused it to follow my illusions sometimes. This affects Mirage less than other classes as a large proportion of your damage is phantasm related.

The average on Firebrand was around 26k for comparison when I checked one of my logs, though I think over 30k on firebrand is easily possible (that's a different discussion though).

SummaryI haven't really had any groups that have tried new specialisations yet so it's a bit too early to compare results. But I think you can beat PUGs with this build easily because it's relatively easy to play on some bosses (probably not Sloth or Wing 3). In fact, beating PUGs was not uncommon to see with Power Mesmer due to the relative ease of the rotation. It will probably end up in a position similar to power/condi mesmer where it may not be optimal, but newer players will probably be more useful with it when compared to other classes.

@bart.3687 said:It's stupid that axe ambush interrupts the chain which is already rather slow. Maybe it wouldn't be such a problem if axe ambush wasn't so garbage. I like the idea of seeking axes, but its effect is just too weak.

Or alternatively I'd be fine if those Axes could float in the air for 15-20 seconds, waiting for targets to appear.

@Carighan.6758 said:

@bart.3687 said:It's stupid that axe ambush interrupts the chain which is already rather slow. Maybe it wouldn't be such a problem if axe ambush wasn't so garbage. I like the idea of seeking axes, but its effect is just too weak.

Well, yeah, I generally support any axe ideas which include adding more floating/seeking/cleaving phantom axes. They just make Axe so fun to use imo. We need more of them, please.

The ambush mechanics are still pretty weird... I didn't end up with the axe ambush interrupting autos, but I did have it completely fail to ambush at all if you gain mirage cloak during the 3rd step of the aa. The window still feels too short. Another oddity is the axe clone's third auto gets the bonus "phantasmal spinning axe", but the clone ambush does not gain a bonus axe from the trait, even though your personal ambush does.

On the plus side, I've tested a clone-based build (dueling/chaos/mirage) and it got over 31k on the large golem* and I haven't managed to hit 32k with phantasms anyway because my gear isn't perfect and I interrupt AA too much with weapon skills. If the axe ambush is changed so the clone does get a third axe, clones will pull even closer to phantasms.

*because I can't be bothered trying to land all of lingering thoughts' hits on a small golem.

Here's the logs from each:Clones - https://dps.report/G9wq-20170928-142856_golemPhantasms - https://dps.report/hD7P-20170928-144958_golemAs you can see, the clones ramp up a lot faster too.

@Knox.8962 said:

@tasmaniajones.4376 said:Today I was able to do some testing of Mirage in raids in a group that can normally full clear raids and I would consider above average compared to other teams, although not on speedclearing levels. I was able to test for wings 1/2/4 (not Deimos). I decided not to test this on Wing 3 as I felt the fights there were unfavourable for this build. I do have logs but I don't normally post them in public without permission.

Typical Overall Damage on the 4 million HP golem with QT's benchmark standards (with gear as specified in the build):

No Permanent Vigor: Around 31500 DPSPermanent Vigor: Around 33000 DPSThis is reliant on being able to stay in melee range, which is not always possible due to mechanics.

My Personal Comments:

This is an improvement over the 30000 DPS for power mesmer, but not as good as some other common condition damage classes (eg daredevil/warrior/engineer). The rotation is also fairly simple and has built in evades to the rotation and someone fairly new could pick this build up (though I still thing power mesmer is easier). However, the Mirage Cloak dodge works quite differently and players will need to get used to this on the actual bosses. For me, the damage was good enough to do some viability testing.

Power Mesmer also has a free elite slot (can be used as extra Time Warp which will ensure perma quickness on all raid members which will provide easy over 3k more raid wide damage or as a back Moa allowing a chrono to take TW) and can exchange utilities for less damage loss for different fights. Is having 0 utility worth 3k more damage?

Question: you're using geomancy in this build, right? What's your damage like if you're dune cloaking and swap out the geomancy with energy?

Given geomancy is a base 3 bleeds for 10 seconds and dune cloak + the ambush is about 28s of condis, geomancy probably wins.

If you're running infinite horizon it's more interesting...

@Toeofdoom.6152 said:The ambush mechanics are still pretty weird... I didn't end up with the axe ambush interrupting autos, but I did have it completely fail to ambush at all if you gain mirage cloak during the 3rd step of the aa. The window still feels too short. Another oddity is the axe clone's third auto gets the bonus "phantasmal spinning axe", but the clone ambush does not gain a bonus axe from the trait, even though your personal ambush does.

On the plus side, I've tested a clone-based build (dueling/chaos/mirage) and it got over 31k on the large golem* and I haven't managed to hit 32k with phantasms anyway because my gear isn't perfect and I interrupt AA too much with weapon skills. If the axe ambush is changed so the clone does get a third axe, clones will pull even closer to phantasms.

*because I can't be bothered trying to land all of lingering thoughts' hits on a small golem.

Here's the logs from each:Clones - https://dps.report/G9wq-20170928-142856_golemPhantasms - https://dps.report/hD7P-20170928-144958_golemAs you can see, the clones ramp up a lot faster too.

From your report, it seems that the main condi damage comes from bleed. Have you thought of going with krata runes?I know you will lose out in the other condi damage but you bleed damage will be much higher, way much higher

@Blades of Sabatine.5639 said:From your report, it seems that the main condi damage comes from bleed. Have you thought of going with krata runes?I know you will lose out in the other condi damage but you bleed damage will be much higher, way much higherThat's more true for the phantasm based one and for that no I haven't really messed with it. You're right though, it may need to be re-optimised for bleeds mainly because axe has less torment than scepter does.

Unfortunately the clone version gets about 30% of its damage from confusion and doesn't run illusions, so I don't think krait runes would work well there. Sigil of energy and runes of the nightmare/trapper, or switching to renegade runes may all be possibilities for that build.

EDIT: I did a few calculations and it might end up ahead, mainly because you lose approx. 5% dps from direct loss of stats but gain bleeds from higher crit rate, a seconds damage sigil and whatever the krait 6 bonus adds. That said, it's unlikely to be a big difference

@Toeofdoom.6152 said:Unfortunately the clone version gets about 30% of its damage from confusion and doesn't run illusions, so I don't think krait runes would work well there. Sigil of energy and runes of the nightmare/trapper, or switching to renegade runes may all be possibilities for that build.

Can you share the clone build you're using?Sorry if I missed it here somewhere.

@TenebKel.4756 said:

@Toeofdoom.6152 said:Unfortunately the clone version gets about 30% of its damage from confusion and doesn't run illusions, so I don't think krait runes would work well there. Sigil of energy and runes of the nightmare/trapper, or switching to renegade runes may all be possibilities for that build.

I think it's something like Dueling 212 Chaos 223 Mirage 133 Earth/Geo Sigils, Viper Gear, Berserker Runes. Get 3 Clones up (Axe/2 + 2x deception or Axe/2 x 2 + deception), Axe/3, auto till you can summon 3 clones again, then shatter & immediately resummon. Utils are healing sig, 2x condition sig, crystal sands and jaunt. Weapons are Axe/Torch + Axe/?? (torch or pistol or focus). Keys are only illusions ever are axe clones and always have 3 axe clones. If you're pro, use Axe/3 on a new target when yours is about to die for even higher clone uptime.

@TenebKel.4756 said:Can you share the clone build you're using?Sorry if I missed it here somewhere.Sure, it's basically this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf3dnELDNohVoB2LDMMjlVDzMGsc6J+HwG4DsMCUcCAA-jxhHQBlb/BNqEkgK/AwJBoWPBAypfgeq/QKAYWWB-eSo a few notes:

• The dueling adept, dueling master traits and mirage adept basically don't do anything.
• The chaos minor 1 is actually interesting - heal is now a free chaos storm, which you can use for whirl finishers as well as the mirage mirror. Unfortunately the cooldown doesn't quite line up with false oasis, but do cast that... just not quite on cooldown.
• Focus is there because it's generally good utility - you don't actually use it in the rotation.
• Dodge and weapon swap regularlyEdit: To be clear, I never shattered with this build. Without illusions traits they apply almost no condis anyway.