ZvZ DPS Mirage

Hello,

I was recently fortunate to be gifted a copy of PoF, and have spent the past few days exploring the potential of Mirage in WvW zerg fights. I wanted to detail in this post my efforts thus far, and gather feedback from other Mesmers who may have tried something similar. Here is the build in its current state: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsdRnELDlphloBuqBMMjlZjyv+3//vMAutkBd4uiiA-jVCBQBnUJ4GOBAKU9HG8AA0oyPAcEAqx+D6TfACOEAkBoaMA-w

The way this build is meant to be played is by spamming Split Surge, the great sword ambush skill, on enemies. Successfully "tagging" enemies with the 3-beam, 3-targets per beam 1200 range attack will proc Sigil of Stamina when they perma, replenishing endurance and allowing the Mirage to use Mirage Cloak again and again. This concept isn't entirely new- I noticed a few threads discussing the use of the sigil for open world PvE exploration, but I think this is a first for WvW.

Much of the build was edited to improve greatsword damage and Mirage Cloak uptime. Deceptive Evasion and Infinite Horizon has some nice synergy, e.g., "cloaking" your iZerker, Compounding Power, moar lazers, Distortion fodder. The use of Strength runes allows the Mirage to might cap relatively easily. Mantra of Pain provides burst damage to secure kills and ensure Stamina sigil procs. Feedback is also effective in large ZvZ engagements, reflecting enemy projectiles with high crit chance from the Accuracy sigil and Marauder's gear. Jaunt and Blink provide get-out-of-jail cards in case you are pulled or focused.

In most open field fights I've been able to reach around 2-3k outgoing DPS over the course of the fight. Damage spikes up in shorter engagements and drops if your team is unable to produce any downs (therefore unable to benefit from sigil of Stamina). These numbers aren't particularly impressive. IIRC Spite scourges and spellbreakers are usually able to incur 5-6k outgoing DPS with their builds. Although the traditional excuse of "Mesmer brings other team utility in form of X, Y, Z" still stands, I can't help but feel disappointed.

I do have some footage of the build in action but it needs to be cleaned up before publishing.

Where do we go from here?

I have yet to test the build with Pack instead of Strength runes. The idea here would be increasing damage output and crit chance in exchange for less might uptime. Adventurer runes are also on the table, though I would probably swap to Mantra of Recovery (similar to my Revenant rune support Chrono build) for the on-demand endurance.

The build might be more effective as a hybrid ranged DPS and healer by swapping Illusions for Inspiration and running Zealot's gear. The updated Healing Prism has some nice healing power modifiers that would help out Restorative Mantras.

I HAVE tested the build with Staff (both power and condi) instead of greatsword. The results were lackluster with damage being fairly inconsistent due to projectile kills and terrain. Scepter and Confusing Images also suffers from similar issues as well as a 900 range limitation. Has great damage for smaller scale fights though.

I HAVE tested the build with torch instead of focus. You can play around with the traits for better personal survivability but I think it's fair to say that focus has a pretty strong role in the current metagame.

Thoughts?

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother. I've tested this out too and rapidly came to the conclusion that it's utterly useless. Does it bring a bit of extra utility? Kinda I guess, you can bring veil and maybe stability mantra. That's about it though, since mesmer is garbage at healing and has zero capacity for offensive utility.

Instead of this build, you could bring...

1. A scourge would do vastly higher dps (2-3x higher at least) while also providing defensive barriers, heavy offensive boon corruption, and good defensive condition conversion.
2. A revenant would bring immensely higher damage (3x-4x) at a longer range and more reliably.
3. A spellbreaker would bring similar damage while being a semi-frontliner with the enormous power of the bubble and offensive disruption.

There's actually no reason to ever bring an offensive mesmer. I was excited about the possibilities that mirage was going to provide before I actually got my hands on it and tested it. Turns out it's actually trash.

The times I have ended up in a zerg fight on my power mirage (which I roam on) I just go around the zerg and hit their back. Pick of squishy classes like revs, eles, etc with 2-3 skills. Think thats how you would be most useful as a dps mesmer in a zerg.

The mesmer as a "dedicated" dps zerger is a waste IMO, what you want is a tough bruiser that can do both roaming on the sidelines (check camps, cut off reinforcements, etc) and harass the backline or manouvering their flankers.

This most glaring issue with this build is no speed. That'll get you killed as soon as you go outside the zerg. You'll want traveller runes instead of might runes.

If you fear a loss of might, well the might runes are a waste to begin with. You can easily achieve 25 stacks by putting the might sigil on the greatsword.

The rest I think is just a matter of taste. I do not see any point in having much vitality - your primary opponents wont be the scourges, it'll be power flankers like thieves, holos, spellbreakers or hammer rev stragglers looking for easy smashings on glass cannons. I run my bruiser with lower precision and vitality, but instead 1800 or so toughness. Random condi isnt generally a threat if you use the cleanse mantra, which is also great if you run in a wolfpack as its some serious AoE cleansing.

Here are some twitch clips of an RvR (~34 on each team) yesterday.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/261353388https://www.twitch.tv/videos/261353389https://www.twitch.tv/videos/261353390

Group as a whole was outplayed by the other team, but hopefully it helps illustrate the playstyle of this build. Has anyone played around with Crystal Sands for large clumps of enemies?

@Pyroatheist.9031 Pretty much nailed it on the head. There's just isn't enough stopping power for this build to be competitive in its current state.

@Dawdler.8521 Out of combat mobility hasn't been a huge hurdle for me due to focus and sword ambush. I'll try out some of your gearing suggestions and report back.

Crystal sands is a bunch of projectiles. Good luck using that in a fight.

I can understand both sides of pros and cons of using mesmer in zergs. For me, I like play in havoc groups or roam with a group. But lately I have found myself playing in zergs. The main reason is I am too lazy to switch out to my scourge. I have picked up a few tricks . This is just my opinion of what I am doing because I want to play a DPS role first and utility second.

I use a build similar to that of the DPS roamer with the assumption that I will get fury and might buffs from the crew. By using the writ of masterful strength with scholar runes, when I crit, it hurts. By using the reduced cool down from Imagined burden with the two phantasams, it is a nice way to stay on the outside of the main mess and get clones up and into the enemy line to spam split surge after mirror blade - then shatter. Using mirage cloak to avoid damage and spawn clones again for split surge while circling flanks. I can deal consistent crits to multiple targets waiting for the zerg to thin out or downs to start popping up.When dealing with returning spawned players or downs, if I have the CD, I will GS burst them or use the ambush on S1 + S3 to get there and shatter with my 2 clones.

Because of the lack of mobility as mentioned above, it takes quick reaction timing using blink and S1 ambush leap or which ever kitten skills GTFO of the heat. Once again, I have found that I can blink or use the mirage cloak + ambush S1 to the back line, reset with CD and head back to the mid line picking off downs. Using jaunt or sand through class is not as reliable but does have condi cleanse/ mirage mirror.

I also change up the utility skills based on the environment of where the fight is taking place, the call outs of the commander and the support from other members.

Choke Points

• I use Feedback and/or null field and Timewarp for pushes by either side based on discretion.
• I use focus to pull into our side of the choke point or give swiftness to team mates heading through or retreating.
• I use power lock and/or pistols for dealing with annoying spellbreakers that breakthrough the point in order to proc their auto stab early and then on their retreat.

Open field

• feedback become less viable here because too many enemies flanking or spreading out, if the commander likes them when pushing then I still keep it.
• I use null field and veil (usually I am the second veil due to not running chaos) more often as well as mantra of pain for extra damage bursts.
• I use duel swords if I find that their flanks like to rush in and need a block or to lure in peeps or rangers whom want to burst us in the back, I can block-blurred frenzy-mirage cloak+false oasis-mirage mirror + phantasmal swordsman. It often works and then I return GS burst on their way back
• Mass Inv works for entering on a smaller zerg, retreating, or adding that extra inv to the front line after veils.

Keeps and Towers

• I use the focus (in tandem with another mesmer) to pull fools off of the wall and GS to get 3 clones up on canons are other ill placed siege, shatter if there is an ranged standing by focusing on hitting people below.

Anyway, I am not saying that DPS mirage in a zerg is OP or anything but just wanted to let peeps know what could be done if you want to find a role that allows you to play your DPS and have effect on the fight.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8dnELDlph1oBuqBcrhlUDjcAcACAlfgTQ3wPB+AngA-jFSBQBXZ/RphZUCmRlZL4BAgHdBa4CAAgjAQCV/JAwBw5nn5Bc+5nf+5n31nfezPv5nf+5lCoKJYA-w

Just run boonshare chrono, it’s completely broken with 1-2 revs and gravity well.

@apharma.3741 said:Just run boonshare chrono, it’s completely broken with 1-2 revs and gravity well.

What do you need revs for?

@SloRules.3560 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Just run boonshare chrono, it’s completely broken with 1-2 revs and gravity well.

Brutality trait, they remove stab whenever they hit you while the rev has quickness, drop the hammer removes 2 stacks on 5 people, CoR another stack on 5 people same with auto. This isn’t that bad with 1 rev but 2 can pretty much remove all the stab from a subgroup and that’s without looking at a scourge or WoD that might go on them and remove some boons possibly stab also.

The concept of DPS mesmer in zergs doesn't exist. There isn't enough damage output to consider yourself as a DPS member of the zerg. On the other hand, mesmer are more than good at providing support with the boonshare and the healing, the CC of gravity, shield #5 or focus pull, and the key skills like Veil or Portal.

However, it has to be said that our performance relies entirely on the synergy of the team. Pair us with revs or scrappers and follow a commander that knows how to use mesmers, and we are key parts of the zerg. But throw us in a pug zerg without organization and leaded by a commander that only tags up, and we aren't better than a pew pew ranger.

Btw, you only realize how little mesmer damage is in zergs when you switch to another class and with bunker stats your AAs numbers are higher than your laser zerker mesmer clouding around could ever dream.

I've played with mirage build, after you were asking in metabattle discord and well, i've strugled more with it than before. Besides, mirage dps doesn't bring any aditional value to the group/party besides damage. It is still capable of huge bursts, but that only shows when you can get into melee and get a quick double or triple shatter along with sword damage. It's pretty unreliable and compared to chronomancer builds, just worse overall in my oppinion, though i do need more time testing chronomancer builds again. I've only been playing boonshare builds for guild.

A clip of power chrono from an hour ago. I screwed up with weapons, i didn't have gravity, i fell of the cliff and i was still top damage and most of it was in a burst at the start. Soon after commander tagged off and couldn't get any more good footage.

@"SloRules.3560" said:A clip of power chrono from an hour ago. I screwed up with weapons, i didn't have gravity, i fell of the cliff and i was still top damage and most of it was in a burst at the start. Soon after commander tagged off and couldn't get any more good footage.

Honestly this is just a really awful demonstration. You heavily outnumbered the enemy, it looks like they're probably in siege fire, it appears that the main group already pulled off the gate and you're just dropping damage on the uncomped rallybots that got left behind, and lastly despite all of that a half-decent hammer rev would have done significantly more damage anyway.

Edit: also you remained top dps because you fell off a cliff and were out of recording range for arcdps for the entire fight, not because your initial burst was god-like.

@"SloRules.3560" said:A clip of power chrono from an hour ago. I screwed up with weapons, i didn't have gravity, i fell of the cliff and i was still top damage and most of it was in a burst at the start. Soon after commander tagged off and couldn't get any more good footage.

Yeah but the thing is, anyone can do "just damage". And that's fine and all, you did a good burst. But in those kinds of situations, if you can fire in front while walking forward... well, you do damage in front. Zerging like that you're just another zerger and I'd rather have a zerger that can dump 10k+ heals or barriers next to me... That's why we have the meta.

Here is two very quick clips of what I think is one of the main advantages of the mesmer against groups - be it groups part of a zerg or just groups in general (the second part isnt a zerg. Well maybe a tiny little one). I've been able to do this in the the middle of backlines in enemy zergs, zipping in and out. Whether your zerg or group then can actually use that advantage is a whole other matter. Being capable of pushing and killing stuff in front is merely a secondary thing. Conforming to the zerg is meh.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"SloRules.3560" said:A clip of power chrono from an hour ago. I screwed up with weapons, i didn't have gravity, i fell of the cliff and i was still top damage and most of it was in a burst at the start. Soon after commander tagged off and couldn't get any more good footage.

Yeah but the thing is, anyone can do "just damage". And that's fine and all, you did a good burst. But in those kinds of situations, if you can fire in front while walking forward... well, you do damage in front. Zerging like that you're just another zerger and I'd rather have a zerger that can dump 10k+ heals or barriers next to me... That's why we have the meta.

You totaly missed the concept here man. Also whole combo would go along the lines of bubble, gwell, dmg, gwell, shield 5, dmg,... You can see that main thing here is actually CC of that gwell that every guild is using. Why not do damage along that CC, and mesmer cc is best in game, you can also switch to focus if you value pull more than shield wave.

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@"SloRules.3560" said:A clip of power chrono from an hour ago. I screwed up with weapons, i didn't have gravity, i fell of the cliff and i was still top damage and most of it was in a burst at the start. Soon after commander tagged off and couldn't get any more good footage.

It's more proof of concept kind of thing that i forced recording off and imediatly uploaded.

We are 18-20 there(i counted). Enemy was about to push in when we came there. Noone pulled out, other swords is other server. I dropped well of calamity at 0.06 and at 0.16 i had 160k dmg, that's 16k/s, after that i got confused, cus i still had cd on weapon swap and stopped doing dmg pretty much.

A rev can't CC like mesmer can and having herald rev and boonshare mesmer in same party wouldn't be optimal, so taking dps mesmer over boonshare would be better in some cases, even if it does less dps than rev.

Rev can also be considered suboptimal dps, if you have firebrand and boonsahre mesmer in a party already and consider those 2 higher priority, since his boons are irrelevant and it does less dmg than ele and less cc than ele and doesn't do corrupts like necro.

You can see everyones damage moving while i'm down the cliff.

My main concern is that part of the damage was on rams.

Other fight that wasn't just us wiping to their ranged presure. Note that this is other server than last video.

@SloRules.3560 said:Why not do damage along that CC, and mesmer cc is best in game, you can also switch to focus if you value pull more than shield wave.Which is kind of odd you'd think, since people dont seem to bring mesmers to zergs for cc - they bring scourges that literally fear/chill/slow you every step. I'd argue they got better cc on far shorter cooldowns... and barriers... and heals... and aoe... and complete area denial... Which was my point. But sure, if you bring a zerg mesmer to a zerg, I'd expect you to zerg. Kind of a given. It works, it's just meh. The only unique utility other than playstyle advantages that I mentioned is veil and portal but few zerg commanders use either anymore.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@SloRules.3560 said:Why not do damage along that CC, and mesmer cc is best in game, you can also switch to focus if you value pull more than shield wave.Which is kind of odd you'd think, since people dont seem to bring mesmers to zergs for cc - they bring scourges that literally fear/chill/slow you every step. I'd argue they got better cc on far shorter cooldowns... and barriers... and heals... and aoe... and complete area denial... Which was my point. But sure, if you bring a zerg mesmer to a zerg, I'd expect you to zerg. Kind of a given. It works, it's just meh. The only unique utility other than playstyle advantages that I mentioned is veil and portal but few zerg commanders use either anymore.

I can't release my guild videos, but oh yea, you take mesmer for CC and only after for boons and than for damage. Minstrel mesmer is just bad currently, it had it's place in HoT meta, cus everything was kinda slow(and if you get caught in bubble(which is only way you should really die) it doesn't matter what gear you have). Fights these days happen in seconds not minutes. Going full boonshare with idk how many minutes worth of boons is also not required, cus of previous statement, you need uptime of 1 minute not 10.

Btw, i'm not saying dps mesmer is optimal as a scourge, but it can be optimal in some instances. Like having herald and firebrand in a party, but you need CC. You don't need to go boonshare, you just take bountifull and you're set, everything else can be in damage.

@Pyroatheist.9031

Just tried it myself. That's beyond disappointing.

@Dawdler.8521 @SloRules.3560

Perhaps both of you are right? NA and EU metas and playstyles aren't identical IIRC.

RIP Support Chrono