[Suggestion] Kneel, run, Kneel, run Deadeye 'Kneel mode' concept explained (for better mobility) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Suggestion] Kneel, run, Kneel, run Deadeye 'Kneel mode' concept explained (for better mobility)

Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 17, 2018 in Thief

Despite some disagreement in the thread, one thing is true as you read through: Deadeye is not quite as improved it can be, and even those who have argued against what I propose here in the OP agree, yet with different approaches on the matter. I hope this thread helps Anet's devs want to improve the Deadeye to make the Spec less sluggish and more enjoyable.

Update: The concept of crouch-moving I added to has been added thanks to feedback from casualkenny in the comments below.

After checking out the Deadeye Spec for the first time, I want to give some feedback.

Here is a mock-up image I created to demonstrate what this would look like in-game: https://imgur.com/a/JOaTw76

The concept explained:

When a Deadeye is in ‘Kneel mode’, and then runs either to escape or to reposition at another point, instead of constantly being stuck in one place (unless you keep mashing Skill 5 or dodge-move all over the place [adaptable yet very impractical]), the Deadeye’s skills become temporarily disabled until the player stops in place.

With the above in mind, when a player stops in place, the Deadeye immediately goes into kneeling position, and the Deadeye’s skills are immediately enabled to use. Furthermore, in the event a player wants to move around and shoot things at the same time, only then is when a player is required to manually come out of ‘Kneel mode’ by pressing Skill 5.

Some critics may say the above improvement is OP, yet it is really not, because all skills are disabled while running in ‘Kneel mode’. In other words, this is clearly a fair improvement on a Class/Spec that requires ‘mobility’, and that is what’s wrong with the Deadeye Spec.

What do you think real snipers do? They are not forced to be stuck in one place; they move from one point to another point, and then reposition themselves. Sure, you can dodge-move, yet that is too Kneel, stop, Kneel, stop instead of Kneel, run, Kneel, run (as suggested).

Other critics may say, "Well, I just got so used to using Skill 5." or worse, "Yea, and a single button that does everything for you would be cool, too." and to that I say had the system I propose been implemented in the first place, there would be no going back to the current state of 'Kneel mode'. In this case, it is not about easy-mode; it is about what makes sense when using a firearm in any game, and that includes being able to move freely from one point to another either to escape or to re-position.

GW2 may not be a shooter, but since there is a shooter Class in GW2 that utilizes firearms, what makes playing the Class any different from playing the role of a shooter in shooter games? There is no difference, because let's be honest, you would more than likely throw your shooter games in the garbage if the only way to move from one point to another while using a rifle was to dodge-move all over the place.

TL;DR: Leaving Deadeye’s ‘Kneel mode’ the way it is does not make playing the Spec mobile, realistic, or what have you. The current state of ‘Kneel mode’ is not even a nerf, or a balance, for that matter. It is clunky: instead of Kneel, run, Kneel, run, it is Kneel, stop, Kneel, stop.

The concept of crouch-moving that works on every Class, not just Theif (as initially suggested)

On one hand, I got to thinking the function of crouch-moving (with a new hotkey specifically for 'Crouch-move' in the Settings) should only be a thing on Theif (Deadeye in particular only when moving slow during 'Kneel mode'), but then I got to thinking of the potential benefits of this mechanic and the fun that comes with it, which would also act as a 'ducking' tactic in combat, especially in PvP to lay low and then dodge-roll out from behind walls, bushes, etc.

With that being said in mind, casualkenny came up with this concept, yet it is only linked to Deadeye's 'Kneel mode', so to add to his idea, what I propose to Anet is to have a new hotkey in the Settings specifically for 'Crouch-move', when triggered, has a speed reduction, just like what happens when players have their character 'walk' instead of run. However, the speed of crouch-moving should be a little faster than walking pace.

This would be the ultimate Deadeye experience as if you are truly playing the role of a sniper, and not only that, other classes can have fun with the new 'Crouch-move' function as well.

Thank you for looking into this.

Comments

  • Or perhaps setting skill 5 to be a toggle of always kneel or always stand, and allow movement keys to unkneel to crouch-move (% of normal combat speed), and rekneel on release in always-kneel mode?

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You might get more traction if this is moved to the thief profession sub-forum

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2018

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    Or perhaps setting skill 5 to be a toggle of always kneel or always stand, and allow movement keys to unkneel to crouch-move (% of normal combat speed), and rekneel on release in always-kneel mode?

    That makes no sense... Other than the second half of what you wrote, the first half of what you wrote is kind of what the current state of Kneel does, and that is to remain in permanent 'Kneel mode' without being able to move (unless you dodge-move) or choose to always stand and run and kill things at the same time.

    The reason I say 'kind of' in the above stated is because your use of the term 'toggle' throws me off, because if you 'toggle' Skill 5 to always be active, what currently happens is soon as you hit the first enemy, you keeps auto-swapping between kneeling and standing over and over again, and if that is what you are suggesting, that is not going to work with the second half of what you wrote regarding crouch-moving.

    With that being said, the reason I believe the idea in my OP is the best approach is because it already allows players to move during 'Kneel mode' and then rekneel again on release (as you suggested) when a player comes to a stop.

    The only thing I liked in your suggestion is the concept of crouch-moving and the realistic speed reduction when crouched, yet that should only be triggered when a player is in 'Kneel mode' and chooses to walk (since you can set a hotkey to walking), and then by pressing the walk hotkey again allows the player to run with their rifle during 'Kneel mode' in which all skills are disabled when moving from one point to another, whether crouch-moving or running. That there would be the ultimate Deadeye experience as if you are truly playing the role of a sniper.

    Come to think of it, Anet can also make a new hotkey called 'Crouch-move' that not only works if/when a player is playing Deadeye, but that works for ALL classes.

    I will be sure to add your idea of crouch-moving in the OP with a little more added to it. Thank you for the feedback.

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    You might get more traction if this is moved to the thief profession sub-forum

    If re-posting a thread yet in another sub-forum is not against the rules (and I believe it is), I will do that, because I really believe between my feedback and casualkenny's feedback regarding the concept of moving while in 'Kneel mode' and crouch-moving, we have something Anet can work with here to fix one of the biggest issues with one of the neatest Specs on one of the most fun classes to play.

    As much I would love to also have this in the Theif sub-forum, unless someone here in the community points out whether or not re-posting yet in a different sub-forum is against the rules., I am not going to post this in the Theif sub-forum.

    Thank you for the suggestion.

  • Oh, apologies, I wasn't specific enough. It was actually a single idea on how it can be implemented.

    Your current idea is, cmiiw, to have an additional crouch key to combine with the directional keys right?

    My idea of how it can be implemented is that:
    1) walk mode is the current system, no difference
    2) kneel mode is modified so that directional keys (without need for any additional key-press) would automatically send you into crouch-movement

    AFAIK, the arrow keys serve no function right now when in kneel mode, so this would avoid us needing to have 1more keybind+press

    And on thinking abt it, I am thinking it might be something to consider, making crouch-moving for >x sec to disable kneel mode.

    Personally (and out of point), i do wonder why it is kneeling and not half-kneeling. Kneeling isn't a very stable pose for a rifle, and bad on the knees, plus bad mobility. A half-kneel allows ur elbow to brace on a support. And crouch movement and dodging would make much more sense from-and-to a half-kneel.

  • From my comment about kneel back in November 2017: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/236670#Comment_236670

    "Kneel activates as stance buff. When active, the DE will kneel and use kneel skill if not moving, use regular skills when moving. Can move even when active. If the DE want to use the regular skills when not moving, they can deactivate the stance."

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    Your current idea is, cmiiw, to have an additional crouch key to combine with the directional keys right?

    No. The function of crouch-moving would function like 'walk' does as a hotkey, the only difference being your character crouches down and moves stealthily (so no, walking is not the same concept/system), and when you move in any direction after pressing the 'crouch-move' hotkey to crouch down, either through your mouse, your arrow keys, or your Q W E S keys, then is when your character moves while in a crouched position.

    With that being said in mind, pressing the crouch-move hotkey again would make your character stand back up again and be able to run.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    My idea of how it can be implemented is that:
    1) walk mode is the current system, no difference

    Except there is a difference between 'walking' while standing up vs. moving while crouched down. They are two different movement types, one to move at normal speed in an upright position, and one to move around stealthily. I really don't know where you get the idea the two systems are exactly the same.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    2) kneel mode is modified so that directional keys (without need for any additional key-press) would automatically send you into crouch-movement.

    'Crouch-move' has to be a hotkey. If Anet were to modify 'Kneel mode' to automatically send your character into crouch-move position through any of the directional keys only when your character is in kneeling position (as you suggest), how are you going to get your character out of its crouch-move position if there is no hotkey to do so? Your idea would always keep a player's character in crouch-move position while kneeling soon as they press one of those directional keys.

    Furthermore, if my idea is implemented to allow players to run/move around while in 'Kneel mode' (mind you, with temporarily disabled skills), those directional keys at that point will serve a purpose, in which case players using those directional keys to run/move around may not want to automatically go into a crouch-move position. Again, that is why 'crouch-move' needs to be a hotkey to prevent that issue.

    Overall, I believe you are complicating the idea with a method that is impractical for explained reasons above. The concept in the OP is simple.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    And on thinking abt it, I am thinking it might be something to consider, making crouch-moving for >x sec to disable kneel mode.

    That is a terrible idea. If the function of crouch-moving is implemented, whether your character is a Deadeye Theif (remember, my updated OP suggests this function be for any Class), players should be able to crouch-move whenever they want without 'disabling' anything. The idea here is to makes these ways of moving around work together smoothly, aka, crouch-moving stealthily or running while in 'Kneel mode' when using a rifle.

    The only skills that should be disabled for balance purposes is all skills except Skill 5 to break out of 'Kneel mode', because it is required. If Anet were to disable 'Kneel mode' upon crouch-moving for x seconds, all that is going to do is force players to stay in 'Kneel mode' until x seconds are up, and that is not a good idea at all.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    Personally (and out of point), i do wonder why it is kneeling and not half-kneeling. Kneeling isn't a very stable pose for a rifle, and bad on the knees, plus bad >mobility. A half-kneel allows ur elbow to brace on a support. And crouch movement and dodging would make much more sense from-and-to a half-kneel.

    Whether or not what you say in the above stated is true or false (and depending on one's preference in a realistic situation), why does that matter? You are putting too much thought behind this than what has already been explained and proposed in the OP. It is tough enough to get Anet to go through with any idea on the forums, much less trying to get them to bring even more things at a more realistic level.

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    From my comment about kneel back in November 2017: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/236670#Comment_236670

    "Kneel activates as stance buff. When active, the DE will kneel and use kneel skill if not moving, use regular skills when moving. Can move even when active. If the DE want to use the regular skills when not moving, they can deactivate the stance."

    On one hand, I think you are trying to show how similar our ideas are, yet on the other hand, it also sounds like you are trying to say your idea is a lot different from mine. Well, our ideas are actually very similar, except for like in my idea suggesting all skills be disabled for balance purposes only when in 'Kneel mode' (except Skill 5 for 'regular' skill use no matter if the Deadeye is running or stationary).

    Let's break down your idea:

    Kneel activates as a stance buff, correct, and when active, the Deadeye will go into 'Kneel mode' and will be able to use kneeling skills if not moving.

    Let me stop there for a moment. That is where our ideas are similar, because even though my idea allows the Deadeye to move while in 'Kneel mode', albeit with temporarily disabled skills, the Deadeye is still only allowed to use kneeling skills when not moving, just like in your idea, so there is no difference there.

    Continuing on, you then say "use regular skills when moving." which seems to suggest the idea in my OP does not already allow that, and that is not true.

    To explain my idea better, when the Deadeye is in 'Kneel mode' and decides to run (mind you, with skills temporarily disabled) either to escape or to re-position, players can still hit Skill 5 at that point to break out of 'Kneel mode' altogether and then use those 'regular' skills. If you look at the mock-up image I created closely, you will see Skill 5 is not disabled and does allow players to hit Skill 5 for their 'regular' skills.

    You see? My idea is only against allowing players to use kneeling skills (more powerful) while running not against using 'regular' skills while running (less powerful).

  • @Eidolonemesis.5640 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    From my comment about kneel back in November 2017: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/236670#Comment_236670

    "Kneel activates as stance buff. When active, the DE will kneel and use kneel skill if not moving, use regular skills when moving. Can move even when active. If the DE want to use the regular skills when not moving, they can deactivate the stance."

    On one hand, I think you are trying to show how similar our ideas are, yet on the other hand, it also sounds like you are trying to say your idea is a lot different from mine. Well, our ideas are actually very similar, except for like in my idea suggesting all skills be disabled only when in 'Kneel mode' (except Skill 5 for 'regular' skill use no matter if the Deadeye is running or stationary).

    I didn't mean it to be compared to your idea. Sorry for the confusion. I'm simply showing that a request to change how the kneeling functions was made way back in 2017...almost a year now, without any result. I just don't want you to get your hopes up.

    Your idea is acceptable, it doesn't have to be my idea, as long as they change it from what it is now. I simply don't like being a human turret.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Eidolonemesis.5640 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    From my comment about kneel back in November 2017: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/236670#Comment_236670

    "Kneel activates as stance buff. When active, the DE will kneel and use kneel skill if not moving, use regular skills when moving. Can move even when active. If the DE want to use the regular skills when not moving, they can deactivate the stance."

    On one hand, I think you are trying to show how similar our ideas are, yet on the other hand, it also sounds like you are trying to say your idea is a lot different from mine. Well, our ideas are actually very similar, except for like in my idea suggesting all skills be disabled only when in 'Kneel mode' (except Skill 5 for 'regular' skill use no matter if the Deadeye is running or stationary).

    I didn't mean it to be compared to your idea. Sorry for the confusion. I'm simply showing that a request to change how the kneeling functions was made way back in 2017...almost a year now, without any result. I just don't want you to get your hopes up.

    Your idea is acceptable, it doesn't have to be my idea, as long as they change it from what it is now. I simply don't like being a human turret.

    Ah, then I apologize for coming off argumentative when I shouldn't have been. I just wanted to clear some things up in case you were comparing differences, because there really are no differences. With that being said, great minds things alike, and if two people have come up with pretty much the same idea a year apart from each other, that ought to say something, and we will see if Anet does anything to improve the Deadeye's mobility while kneeling.

    And yea, being 'a human turret' is a perfect way to describe the current state of 'Kneel mode'. It is terrible, and there is indeed a better way that is still balanced to address this issue rather than forcing every Deadeye in the game to be stuck in one place like a turret, as you say, unless they dodge-move. It kills the fun, and it kills the experience.

    The work-around is doable and adaptable after a while (as anything with practice), yet managing a work-around proves nothing once we are good at it; it only proves the system should have been improved to begin with to accomplish the same goal of escape and re-positioning.

    Thank you for the support.

  • casualkenny.9817casualkenny.9817 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    @Eidolonemesis.5640 said:

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    Your current idea is, cmiiw, to have an additional crouch key to combine with the directional keys right?

    No. The function of crouch-moving would function like 'walk' does as a hotkey, the only difference being your character crouches down and moves stealthily (so no, walking is not the same concept/system), and when you move in any direction after pressing the 'crouch-move' hotkey to crouch down, either through your mouse, your arrow keys, or your Q W E S keys, then is when your character moves while in a crouched position.

    With that being said in mind, pressing the crouch-move hotkey again would make your character stand back up again and be able to run.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    My idea of how it can be implemented is that:
    1) walk mode is the current system, no difference

    Except there is a difference between 'walking' while standing up vs. moving while crouched down. They are two different movement types, one to move at normal speed in an upright position, and one to move around stealthily. I really don't know where you get the idea the two systems are exactly the same.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    2) kneel mode is modified so that directional keys (without need for any additional key-press) would automatically send you into crouch-movement.

    'Crouch-move' has to be a hotkey. If Anet were to modify 'Kneel mode' to automatically send your character into crouch-move position through any of the directional keys only when your character is in kneeling position (as you suggest), how are you going to get your character out of its crouch-move position if there is no hotkey to do so? Your idea would always keep a player's character in crouch-move position while kneeling soon as they press one of those directional keys.

    Furthermore, if my idea is implemented to allow players to run/move around while in 'Kneel mode' (mind you, with temporarily disabled skills), those directional keys at that point will serve a purpose, in which case players using those directional keys to run/move around may not want to automatically go into a crouch-move position. Again, that is why 'crouch-move' needs to be a hotkey to prevent that issue.

    Overall, I believe you are complicating the idea with a method that is impractical for explained reasons above. The concept in the OP is simple.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    And on thinking abt it, I am thinking it might be something to consider, making crouch-moving for >x sec to disable kneel mode.

    That is a terrible idea. If the function of crouch-moving is implemented, whether your character is a Deadeye Theif (remember, my updated OP suggests this function be for any Class), players should be able to crouch-move whenever they want without 'disabling' anything. The idea here is to makes these ways of moving around work together smoothly, aka, crouch-moving stealthily or running while in 'Kneel mode' when using a rifle.

    The only skills that should be disabled for balance purposes is all skills except Skill 5 to break out of 'Kneel mode', because it is required. If Anet were to disable 'Kneel mode' upon crouch-moving for x seconds, all that is going to do is force players to stay in 'Kneel mode' until x seconds are up, and that is not a good idea at all.

    To clarify:
    1) I do not see the purpose of crouch movement to be given to any class other than thief, or for any other future stealth-concept-type class, both for game mechanics and concept. However, thieves already have stealth skills (and stealth-break attacks). The game currently does not seem able to utilise such a mechanic the way fps games do

    2) when I said walk-mode, I actually meant the normal default run mode, and I am also referring to the current existing system of kneel-off. I am talking about when kneel is toggled off, ie no change to this portion. You are responding to something that I am not saying

    3) in my idea, crouch-move ends immediately on release of direction key, as stated in my first post

    4) I am not adamant on whether the change would allow a deadeye to
    kneel>run without weaponskills>rekneel
    or
    kneel>crouch-move >rekneel
    I do favor the 2nd, for gameplay and logic reasons. And I don't mean both being available - if crouch-move becomes the mechanic, then you cannot run at all while kneel mode is active.
    If you want to run, you must toggle skill 5 off.

    To put it another way, I am against the idea of kneel>run>kneel for concept reasons. Kneel>crouch>kneel is a balance between retaining some gameplay cost/penalty of remaining in kneel mode permanently, and providing a crippled form of non-dodge movement for short movements.

    5) the time limit for crouch movement before kneel stance becomes toggled off (compulsory) is both a limit on continuous crouch movement and a potential convenience - if you need to crouch-move for that long, chances are you may need to run for gameplay reasons. Crouch-move, as I conceive it, is mainly for short adjustments of positions, usually due to boss movement, or to shift out of an aoe without wasting a full dodge. Alternatively, I am also OK with crouch-move transiting to normal run after x sec, to return to kneeling upon release of movement keys.

    6) my idea is a single idea. It does not make sense for you to evaluate individual elements of my idea within your idea. My idea was previously a variant of your original idea, but NOT a variant of your updated idea.

    7) Vincent's idea from 1 Yr ago is probably somewhere between your updated idea and mine

    8) if you respond, I will read it, but I am unlikely to reply

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    while i like the idea on first sight, i wonder if it actually makes a difference?
    because for animation reasons, i dont think you will be instantly in kneel after stopping to move. and if your character does again this kneel down move, then you might aswell unkeel, move , kneel and have your skills ready to use. the issue is not having to press the key for kneeling, its the animation time for kneeling and unkneeling wich feels like ages. i atleast can press multiple buttons at a time, yet i cant skip those animations.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:
    while i like the idea on first sight, i wonder if it actually makes a difference?
    because for animation reasons, i dont think you will be instantly in kneel after stopping to move. and if your character does again this kneel down move, then you might aswell unkeel, move , kneel and have your skills ready to use. the issue is not having to press the key for kneeling, its the animation time for kneeling and unkneeling wich feels like ages. i atleast can press multiple buttons at a time, yet i cant skip those animations.

    If you dodge while kneeling, the standing rifle skills are active for a short moment. This means that the functionality is there for moving while kneeling. The animation for moving while kneeling will be no different than dodging while kneeling.

    The reason for its clunkiness is that you are pressing a button. Pressing a button is sending a request to the server which is subject to latency which makes it clunky. Dodging while kneeling is very smooth because you only press one button instead of 3 (kneel-stand-kneel), thus it is not the animation.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    while i like the idea on first sight, i wonder if it actually makes a difference?
    because for animation reasons, i dont think you will be instantly in kneel after stopping to move. and if your character does again this kneel down move, then you might aswell unkeel, move , kneel and have your skills ready to use. the issue is not having to press the key for kneeling, its the animation time for kneeling and unkneeling wich feels like ages. i atleast can press multiple buttons at a time, yet i cant skip those animations.

    If you dodge while kneeling, the standing rifle skills are active for a short moment. This means that the functionality is there for moving while kneeling. The animation for moving while kneeling will be no different than dodging while kneeling.

    The reason for its clunkiness is that you are pressing a button. Pressing a button is sending a request to the server which is subject to latency which makes it clunky. Dodging while kneeling is very smooth because you only press one button instead of 3 (kneel-stand-kneel), thus it is not the animation.

    no your only standing during withdrawl and RFI rolls, not during dodge rolls.

    for you it might be the buttons, for me it is surely the animation time.
    its same with old silent scope reset, pressing the button is not an issue. the character standing still for the animation is.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    while i like the idea on first sight, i wonder if it actually makes a difference?
    because for animation reasons, i dont think you will be instantly in kneel after stopping to move. and if your character does again this kneel down move, then you might aswell unkeel, move , kneel and have your skills ready to use. the issue is not having to press the key for kneeling, its the animation time for kneeling and unkneeling wich feels like ages. i atleast can press multiple buttons at a time, yet i cant skip those animations.

    If you dodge while kneeling, the standing rifle skills are active for a short moment. This means that the functionality is there for moving while kneeling. The animation for moving while kneeling will be no different than dodging while kneeling.

    The reason for its clunkiness is that you are pressing a button. Pressing a button is sending a request to the server which is subject to latency which makes it clunky. Dodging while kneeling is very smooth because you only press one button instead of 3 (kneel-stand-kneel), thus it is not the animation.

    no your only standing during withdrawl and RFI rolls, not during dodge rolls.

    That's right, it is those two skills, not the dodge roll.

    for you it might be the buttons, for me it is surely the animation time.
    its same with old silent scope reset, pressing the button is not an issue. the character standing still for the animation is.

    The animation is really fast. The problem is it is waiting for the server to respond after you send a request by pressing the button. Like I said, it is subject to latency.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Majic.4801Majic.4801 Member ✭✭✭

    Less button-mashing is something I will always welcome.

    "Not the same, real and true. True you feel inside. Always follow what is true." -- Sentry-skritt Bordekka
    "I am so much more important than whatever it is you're doing!" -- Explorer Hiffa
    "Harpy love hurts!" -- Shaman Shoba

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2018

    @Majic.4801 said:
    Less button-mashing is something I will always welcome.

    if i want to see a combat with less button mashing, ill watch a movie :3.
    but i like more fluid animation and not like a round based game, i can press many buttons at once wich doesnt matter if the game takes too much time for each, when its not needed like a kneel/unkeel animation.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2018

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    To clarify:
    1) I do not see the purpose of crouch movement to be given to any class other than thief, or for any other future stealth-concept-type class, both for game mechanics and concept. However, thieves already have stealth skills (and stealth-break attacks). The game currently does not seem able to utilise such a mechanic the way fps games do

    For the same reason dodge-rolling is given to any class to be utilized, a form of escape, either to avoid danger or to hide your character quickly away somewhere else.

    Heck, I remember way back in the day when some players were against dodge-rolling, saying it was 'very un-MMORPG', among other ridiculous criticisms at the time. Now look, everyone is using the mechanic, and it changed the way we avoided danger in combat vs. in GW1.

    And so the idea of crouch-moving here will undergo the same phase of being barraged by criticism like dodge-rolling once was long ago until every player ultimately begins using the mechanic (if implemented). That is often the pattern with new ideas players didn't know they wanted/needed until they have access to it.

    Therefore, if other classes are allowed to crouch-move, too, it would be considered a 'ducking-down' combat tactic against projectiles or to hide your character behind a wall without your head showing. My question to you is why not allow it? It will make combat a little more interesting than always moving around in an upright position.

    Not only that, if crouch-moving is implemented, I know as well you do players are going to cry foul about 'advantages' of the mechanic and will either demand it to be utilizable on all classes or demand the mechanic be completely done away with. That is why I suggested the mechanic be usable by any class after giving it more thought.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    2) when I said walk-mode, I actually meant the normal default run mode, and I am also referring to the current existing system of kneel-off. I am talking about when kneel is toggled off, ie no change to this portion. You are responding to something that I am not saying.

    I am still not fully understanding what you're saying in the above stated, but I am just going to go with it and say, okay.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    3) in my idea, crouch-move ends immediately on release of direction key, as stated in my first post.

    Going by your approach, right, which means the positioning of crouching to crouch-move begins and ends again and again, on and off, when pressing any of the directional keys while you are trying to move your character around. Again, that is a bad idea, and that is why crouch-move functionality, if ever implemented, needs to be separate on its own hotkey from the directional keys.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    4) I am not adamant on whether the change would allow a deadeye to
    kneel>run without weaponskills>rekneel
    or
    kneel>crouch-move >rekneel
    I do favor the 2nd, for gameplay and logic reasons. And I don't mean both being available - if crouch-move becomes the mechanic, then you cannot run at all while kneel mode is active.

    I disagree. All functions should be available during kneeling (except skills that become temporarily disabled, as suggested in my OP), that is, being able to break out of crouch-move positioning, being able to run, and if your character makes a complete stop again, it kneels again. When continuing that cycle of movement, if/when your character is in kneeling position again, and then it moves forward again, it is either going to start running, or if you press the hotkey to trigger 'crouch-moving', it will do that.

    Your idea, in a nutshell, seems to add drawback(s) that does not help the main issue(s) my OP speaks of. It only adds to Deadeyes mobility issue(s) by suggesting one or two drawbacks be added to half-fix a clunky Kneel mechanic, ultimately leading back to square one regarding mobility issues.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    If you want to run, you must toggle skill 5 off.

    Why allow crouch-moving while kneeling down and not also running with temporarily disabled skills? As my OP suggests, whether kneeling in place or crouch-moving, Kneel skills are going to be temporarily disabled no matter what for balance reasons.

    Again, as suggested in the OP, whether crouch-moving or running while in 'Kneel mode', the only time a player can use their Kneel skills is when they come to a complete stop, and that is a fair balance in and of itself.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    To put it another way, I am against the idea of kneel>run>kneel for concept reasons. Kneel>crouch>kneel is a balance between retaining some gameplay cost/penalty of remaining in kneel mode permanently, and providing a crippled form of non-dodge movement for short movements.

    There is absolutely nothing imbalanced about allowing players to run while in Kneel mode, especially if all skills are disabled. There is no advantage there, other than being able to re-position slightly quicker to somewhere else. Just because players can get good at running a work-around with the current state of 'Kneel mode' does not mean the system should stay the way it is. That's silly.

    Below is a short video I created to prove even allowing players to run while in 'Kneel mode' with temporarily disabled skills is NOT imbalanced, because as you can see in the video, I can almost re-position myself just as fast as if I were to be able to run while in 'Kneel mode' in the first place. There is maybe a split second difference, not even that, especially after you shoot off a few shots while in 'Kneel mode' at players and then hit Skill 5, to which you are immediately back on your feet to run again. By the time you catch up to the player you are running after, Skill 5's very quick cooldown will have already passed, and you can kneel again, shoot, and repeat the same process...

    NOTE: Think of my concept like this: during the time you hit Skill 5 again to break out of kneeling down from the current state of 'Knee mode', and you are up and running again, your Kneel skills technically become disabled at that point by not being able to use them. You are instead only allow to use your less powerful Rifle skills. The same thing applies in my concept, except instead of switching to a Skill Bar of less powerful Rifle skills after pressing Skill 5 to break out of 'Kneel mode', your Kneel skills are disabled instead. What is so imbalanced about that?

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    5) the time limit for crouch movement before kneel stance becomes toggled off (compulsory) is both a limit on continuous crouch movement and a potential convenience - if you need to crouch-move for that long, chances are you may need to run for gameplay reasons. Crouch-move, as I conceive it, is mainly for short adjustments of positions, usually due to boss movement, or to shift out of an aoe without wasting a full dodge. Alternatively, I am also OK with crouch-move transiting to normal run after x sec, to return to kneeling upon release of movement keys.

    Again, players can already mash Skill 5 and re-position almost just as quickly (if not, as quickly) like what my OP suggests. You go into 'Kneel mode', you shoot off a few skills, you press Skill 5 again, and you are up and running again after monsters or another player.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    6) my idea is a single idea. It does not make sense for you to evaluate individual elements of my idea within your idea. My idea was previously a variant of your original idea, but NOT a variant of your updated idea.

    I like the concept of crouch-moving, so I added it to the OP (even if I did change it), and I believe I have proved the very reasons why your suggestion of crouch-move mechanics and how it should be implemented doesn't add up, notably when you suggest Anet to add unnecessary drawbacks.

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    8) if you respond, I will read it, but I am unlikely to reply

    So, in other words, you are allowed to argue with logic against mine (or other people's), yet you do not like it when others argue against your logic?

    I thought that is the point of a discussion forum until two people either find common ground, or until one or the other acknowledges they are wrong (or may be wrong), to which they can suggest something else that is better.

    You seem to look at this like I disagree with you to disagree, and that is not true at all. I have plenty of valid reasons why I disagree with your approach on this matter, and I even created a short video to show the response time between my concept of Kneel, run, Kneel, run vs. the current system of 'Kneel mode' is not much different in speed at all. Therefore, since there is really no speed difference, the optimization to 'Kneel mode' may as well be implemented.

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    while i like the idea on first sight, i wonder if it actually makes a difference?

    Of course it will make a difference for many explained reasons throughout this thread.

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    because for animation reasons, i dont think you will be instantly in kneel after stopping to move.

    Anet would have to implement code where it runs a check on the player, who, if in 'Kneel mode' and begins running, and then comes to a complete stop, automatically triggers 'Kneel mode' again and again as the player stops and goes unless the player breaks out of 'Kneel mode' altogether manually by hitting Skill 5.

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    and if your character does again this kneel down move, then you might aswell unkeel, move , kneel and have your skills ready to use. the issue is not having to press the key for kneeling, its the animation time for kneeling and unkneeling wich feels like ages. i atleast can press multiple buttons at a time, yet i cant skip those animations.

    You are not understanding the concept in the OP... The problem is not with the animation; the problem is indeed the constant key press of Skill 5 every time you choose to get up and run again, whereupon you will have to manually hit Skill 5 again to go into 'Kneel mode' to kneel/snipe from a new position.

    If you scroll up to the video I shared with casualkenny, picture what you are seeing in the video, except with Skill 5 never having to be pressed or going on cooldown (as a result of a button press) while moving from one point to another point only if/when your character is in 'Kneel mode'.

    With my concept, if your character is in 'Kneel mode', and you use any of your directional keys (or mouse) to move your character, your character automatically gets up and runs without having to press Skill 5 again and again each time you want to kneel/snipe from a new position. However, your skills (except Skill 5 to break out of 'Kneel mode') are disabled when running in 'Kneel mode' until you come to a complete stop again. That is the difference.

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2018

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    The reason for its clunkiness is that you are pressing a button. Pressing a button is sending a request to the server which is subject to latency which makes it clunky. Dodging while kneeling is very smooth because you only press one button instead of 3 (kneel-stand-kneel), thus it is not the animation.

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    for you it might be the buttons, for me it is surely the animation time.
    its same with old silent scope reset, pressing the button is not an issue. the character standing still for the animation is.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    The animation is really fast. The problem is it is waiting for the server to respond after you send a request by pressing the button. Like I said, it is subject to latency.

    On a networking level, I did not think of the current state of 'Kneel mode' being subject to latency. Good point. Thank you. That is yet another reason why the function of 'Kneel mode' should be optimized.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eidolonemesis.5640 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    while i like the idea on first sight, i wonder if it actually makes a difference?

    Of course it will make a difference for many explained reasons throughout this thread.

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    because for animation reasons, i dont think you will be instantly in kneel after stopping to move.

    Anet would have to implement code where it runs a check on the player, who, if in 'Kneel mode' and begins running, and then comes to a complete stop, automatically triggers 'Kneel mode' again and again as the player stops and goes unless the player breaks out of 'Kneel mode' altogether manually by hitting Skill 5.

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    and if your character does again this kneel down move, then you might aswell unkeel, move , kneel and have your skills ready to use. the issue is not having to press the key for kneeling, its the animation time for kneeling and unkneeling wich feels like ages. i atleast can press multiple buttons at a time, yet i cant skip those animations.

    You are not understanding the concept in the OP... The problem is not with the animation; the problem is indeed the constant key press of Skill 5 every time you choose to get up and run again, whereupon you will have to manually hit Skill 5 again to go into 'Kneel mode' to kneel/snipe from a new position.

    If you scroll up to the video I shared with casualkenny, picture what you are seeing in the video, except with Skill 5 never having to be pressed or going on cooldown (as a result of a button press) while moving from one point to another point only if/when your character is in 'Kneel mode'.

    With my concept, if your character is in 'Kneel mode', and you use any of your directional keys (or mouse) to move your character, your character automatically gets up and runs without having to press Skill 5 again and again each time you want to kneel/snipe from a new position. However, your skills (except Skill 5 to break out of 'Kneel mode') are disabled when running in 'Kneel mode' until you come to a complete stop again. That is the difference.

    your problem is pressing the key, my problem is the animation. i dont mind pressing keys for fluidity, i mind animations tho.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:
    your problem is pressing the key, my problem is the animation. i dont mind pressing keys for fluidity, i mind animations tho.

    The number of keys you press affects the animation since some skills are placed in the queue (or stack) and before the next animation to play, the previous animation has to finish. For instance, waiting for the Mark animation to finish before the Kneeling animation can begin. The delay is sometimes caused by latency.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    your problem is pressing the key, my problem is the animation. i dont mind pressing keys for fluidity, i mind animations tho.

    The number of keys you press affects the animation since some skills are placed in the queue (or stack) and before the next animation to play, the previous animation has to finish. For instance, waiting for the Mark animation to finish before the Kneeling animation can begin. The delay is sometimes caused by latency.

    i know, thats still only an issue because both kneel and unkneel have an animation.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    your problem is pressing the key, my problem is the animation. i dont mind pressing keys for fluidity, i mind animations tho.

    The number of keys you press affects the animation since some skills are placed in the queue (or stack) and before the next animation to play, the previous animation has to finish. For instance, waiting for the Mark animation to finish before the Kneeling animation can begin. The delay is sometimes caused by latency.

    i know, thats still only an issue because both kneel and unkneel have an animation.

    But there has to be an animation, I don't think that will change. In order to reduce the clunkiness is to eliminate the number of times we have to press the buttons.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Eidolonemesis.5640Eidolonemesis.5640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Eidolonemesis.5640 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    while i like the idea on first sight, i wonder if it actually makes a difference?

    Of course it will make a difference for many explained reasons throughout this thread.

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    because for animation reasons, i dont think you will be instantly in kneel after stopping to move.

    Anet would have to implement code where it runs a check on the player, who, if in 'Kneel mode' and begins running, and then comes to a complete stop, automatically triggers 'Kneel mode' again and again as the player stops and goes unless the player breaks out of 'Kneel mode' altogether manually by hitting Skill 5.

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    and if your character does again this kneel down move, then you might aswell unkeel, move , kneel and have your skills ready to use. the issue is not having to press the key for kneeling, its the animation time for kneeling and unkneeling wich feels like ages. i atleast can press multiple buttons at a time, yet i cant skip those animations.

    You are not understanding the concept in the OP... The problem is not with the animation; the problem is indeed the constant key press of Skill 5 every time you choose to get up and run again, whereupon you will have to manually hit Skill 5 again to go into 'Kneel mode' to kneel/snipe from a new position.

    If you scroll up to the video I shared with casualkenny, picture what you are seeing in the video, except with Skill 5 never having to be pressed or going on cooldown (as a result of a button press) while moving from one point to another point only if/when your character is in 'Kneel mode'.

    With my concept, if your character is in 'Kneel mode', and you use any of your directional keys (or mouse) to move your character, your character automatically gets up and runs without having to press Skill 5 again and again each time you want to kneel/snipe from a new position. However, your skills (except Skill 5 to break out of 'Kneel mode') are disabled when running in 'Kneel mode' until you come to a complete stop again. That is the difference.

    your problem is pressing the key, my problem is the animation. i dont mind pressing keys for fluidity, i mind animations tho.

    Pressing keys (in this case, having to mash Skill 5 an unnecessary amount of times between kneeling/unkneeling) does not = fluidity. I am not sure what your definition of fluidity is, but it surely is not having to mash Skill 5 over and over just to re-position your sniper from one point to another point.

    The concept in the OP is not hard to grasp; you are only making it seem hard to grasp by complicating something so simple that is not complicated at all.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    your problem is pressing the key, my problem is the animation. i dont mind pressing keys for fluidity, i mind animations tho.

    The number of keys you press affects the animation since some skills are placed in the queue (or stack) and before the next animation to play, the previous animation has to finish. For instance, waiting for the Mark animation to finish before the Kneeling animation can begin. The delay is sometimes caused by latency.

    i know, thats still only an issue because both kneel and unkneel have an animation.

    But there has to be an animation, I don't think that will change. In order to reduce the clunkiness is to eliminate the number of times we have to press the buttons.

    You are one of few who really understands, Vincent. Yes, there is an animation for every skill in this game, and those who do have a problem with the animation time between kneel/unkneel should then get behind the concept in the OP that will reduce the amount of times the animation triggers every time you want to re-position your sniper, since you can go a map's length of running until your character comes to a complete stop and kneels down again, whereupon all skills are immediately enabled again to use.

    P.S. After giving this thread a rest for a few weeks and revisiting it, only to find no credible counterargument exists against the concept I propose, I still believe Anet's devs should really look into this, because there is no good reason not to. Playing Deadeye still feels sluggish.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2018

    @Eidolonemesis.5640 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Eidolonemesis.5640 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    while i like the idea on first sight, i wonder if it actually makes a difference?

    Of course it will make a difference for many explained reasons throughout this thread.

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    because for animation reasons, i dont think you will be instantly in kneel after stopping to move.

    Anet would have to implement code where it runs a check on the player, who, if in 'Kneel mode' and begins running, and then comes to a complete stop, automatically triggers 'Kneel mode' again and again as the player stops and goes unless the player breaks out of 'Kneel mode' altogether manually by hitting Skill 5.

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    and if your character does again this kneel down move, then you might aswell unkeel, move , kneel and have your skills ready to use. the issue is not having to press the key for kneeling, its the animation time for kneeling and unkneeling wich feels like ages. i atleast can press multiple buttons at a time, yet i cant skip those animations.

    You are not understanding the concept in the OP... The problem is not with the animation; the problem is indeed the constant key press of Skill 5 every time you choose to get up and run again, whereupon you will have to manually hit Skill 5 again to go into 'Kneel mode' to kneel/snipe from a new position.

    If you scroll up to the video I shared with casualkenny, picture what you are seeing in the video, except with Skill 5 never having to be pressed or going on cooldown (as a result of a button press) while moving from one point to another point only if/when your character is in 'Kneel mode'.

    With my concept, if your character is in 'Kneel mode', and you use any of your directional keys (or mouse) to move your character, your character automatically gets up and runs without having to press Skill 5 again and again each time you want to kneel/snipe from a new position. However, your skills (except Skill 5 to break out of 'Kneel mode') are disabled when running in 'Kneel mode' until you come to a complete stop again. That is the difference.

    your problem is pressing the key, my problem is the animation. i dont mind pressing keys for fluidity, i mind animations tho.

    Pressing keys (in this case, having to mash Skill 5 an unnecessary amount of times between kneeling/unkneeling) does not = fluidity. I am not sure what your definition of fluidity is, but it surely is not having to mash Skill 5 over and over just to re-position your sniper from one point to another point.

    The concept in the OP is not hard to grasp; you are only making it seem hard to grasp by complicating something so simple that is not complicated at all.

    hard to grasp? i understand that concept in your OP.
    i still would prefer to just remove the animation and if they just remove the animationlock of kneeling that would help alot.
    pressing keys for actions gives you control over your character wich is important, if the characters actions are harder to control IMO it will feel more clunky. but i guess i could just use your toggle in the same way it is now. but as one can usually easily press way more buttons than one can perform actions (because of animation time again) i dont really see whats your issue with pressing the button, i personally just hate the animation and especially that it has an animationlock like a movement skill.
    i think because of that also you sometimes cant kneel or use deaths retreat when immobilized because the game counts that somehow as a movement and cancels it altho both are ways to deal with immobilize when it works.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Artaz.3819Artaz.3819 Member ✭✭✭

    It boils down to design fundamentals...GW2 combat was originally supposed to allow a fluid (mobile) combat experience. In fact, many skills have had animation/mechanical changes over the years to remove the "stuck in place" root while casting aspect. We (as players) even gravitate to mobility combat skills as the "better" or "more skilled" options because they are more fun.

    The underlying core of why Deadeye "feels odd" is because we have a weapon set that makes you sit in one spot and spam weapon skills (balanced for the self-imposed root). Deadeye rifle does have the weaker 2nd mobile attack options (but there is virtually no reason to ever use them without a misclick outside of 4). Rifle remains clunky and by nature, poor design to the theme of "fun" mobile combat aspect.

    TL;DR the Kneel/Stand Up animation is just annoying and not fun.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Give a crouch which let's you move and grants super speed xd

  • MakubeC.3026MakubeC.3026 Member ✭✭✭

    Hmm, could be interesting. Although I've always thought that just breaking kneel when jumping would be easier.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    Give a crouch which let's you move and grants super speed xd

    I was going to suggest a crouch except more like shooters have where you slow down but your reticle and spread gets tighter. They could add a cool but directional or telling animation so it feels more fluid and less stop-n-go, like old Starwars galaxies dive, prone, roll skills. It would put you into crouch mode where you'd be less mobile rather than immobile but have current Kneel modifiers. Plus, if they ever do anything to dodge stealth Silent scope they could have Crouch give more critical range but also some defensive modifiers like deflection or a soft cloak that would still activate Shadow Arts.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MakubeC.3026 said:
    Hmm, could be interesting. Although I've always thought that just breaking kneel when jumping would be easier.

    I mean, any good thief uses weapon stow cancels anyway, and weapon stowing breaks kneel... This should be second nature, not even an inconvenience really to most decent thieves. I think what the OP is getting at is that this still doesn't keep you from wearing out your kneel key-bind because you have to RE-enter the kneel once you reposition, which against anyone with any awareness will be constantly.

  • Deadeye doesnt need any more mobility. It actually doesnt need any improvement anymore. It needs nerfs. A lots of them.

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