Pistol/Dagger Thief needs to see some buffs (WvW)

With so much condi clear going around - my favourite class/build since release has seen unfortunate nerfs to the point that there are no classes I can 1v1 anymore. With 4k+ hours of experience playing this build, I can't even make a scratch on anybody. Anyone else that plays p/d thief experiencing this?

I mained P/D thief from release and up until HoT came out. I'm still dusting off my condition gear every now and then just to infuriate people, but I can't kill anything unless they mess up big time. At least they can't kill me either :expressionless:

I've also been experiencing this and it makes it incredibly hard to kill anything -- 1v1 is pretty much dead with this build and it's hard for me to find others that work for me seeing that this is the only build I'm comfortable with and have spent so much time getting to know.

two big counters to p/d is soulbeast and mirage, everything else is pretty killable 1v1.

Core and DD as a whole needs buffed. Thief has ate to many nurfs as usual, this time thanks to DE. Although the DE complaints are pretty understandable man thers a lot of whiners that complain about being ganked by a glass class lol soon it won’t be able to gank anything and will just be a mediocre damage glassy spec that can run away really well lol

Nowadays u get ganked by soulbeast,mirage and holo more often and is deadlier than the ACTUAL gank class lol

Thrives be like gank oh shit invulnerability skill, k hold on I’ll be right back after I reset, gank oh cmon a block? Ok wait here another sec I’ll be right back, gank man an evede frame cmon fine I’ll just fight, wait where’d my sword go? Is this styrofoam? Followed by 2 hits and ur downed unless u run lol

@HitNine.2568 said:With so much condi clear going around - my favourite class/build since release has seen unfortunate nerfs to the point that there are no classes I can 1v1 anymore. With 4k+ hours of experience playing this build, I can't even make a scratch on anybody. Anyone else that plays p/d thief experiencing this?

Hybrid P/D works well as a Deadeye. The Shadowstrike base power damage is decent and combined with some condi damage and crit chance lets you pressure past their condi cleanses.

Even if they cleanse you reapply more condi. But with the power damage and crit you put them on the defensive and the crits help build up malice for Sneak Attack with full torment. The full malice also lets you use stolen skills for extra stealth access.

What is your build?

@dDuff.3860 said:two big counters to p/d is soulbeast and mirage, everything else is pretty killable 1v1.

I can regularly kill Soulbeast. I struggle with Mirage. I’ve been working on getting better at kiting and staying ahead of the Mirage so I can force the Mirage to use cloak defensively rather than offensively. That seems to work to some degree if you can pull it off. Once you get you attacks landing somewhat consistently they die rather quickly (again kiting during the invuln and evade sections).

I find the best way to fight mirage is a trap/trap build using at least one needle and the trap on heal. This very useful for weeding out the Clones as long as you keep those traps tactically between you and mesmer. You also have to get in and out of stealth more often and stay in stealth for longer periods as this helps to inhibit shatters and clone creation. They still one of the harder kills but keep in mind they tend to have less condition cleanses then others so if you can get them on you can do ok.

in P/d I still prefer DE over DD so as to use Payback and the added might for the harder ticks along with the steals.One downside against mesmers is the stolen skill not as good when it comes to dealing condition damage and in comparison to Plasma.

My own build leans much mre heavily into torment then bleeds or poison as the main source of damage. Torment duration is 100 percent this making the sneak attack add much more effective. There a whole pile of those you face that will continue movement through torment stacks before they clue in how hard they tick. The biggest single downside of Condition builds in DE is malice build tends to be slower , but I tend to mix the #1 with #4 at range, allow a close to port away with a 3 stealth and Sneak attack and do well enough.

As my own cleanse I still tend to trickster. I tied a variant with DD to use distracting daggers as an interrupt along with an SW so as to use Pressure strike for more torment but could never get that to work as effectively as I would have liked. P/d has no interrupts in the weapon skills which is a big downside when trying to use pressure strike.

I need one of you to prove me wrong, but I still believe poison DD p/d is more viable than torment p/d DE even with torment runes. Viable in terms of survival vs burst output.

@Xtinct.7031 said:I need one of you to prove me wrong, but I still believe poison DD p/d is more viable than torment p/d DE even with torment runes. Viable in terms of survival vs burst output.

Go hybrid and use Thief Runes. Much better results.

@Xtinct.7031 said:I need one of you to prove me wrong, but I still believe poison DD p/d is more viable than torment p/d DE even with torment runes. Viable in terms of survival vs burst output.

I think overall DD has more survival but DE can really get a lot more burst and reapply that burst more readily. I found even before DE I was going CORE P/d over the DD version because the DD line was not doing enough for me from a damage perspective.

As to torment versus poison , I find the torment more effective against the classes that give the most trouble overall. My torment build can still get enough poison on to inhibit the heal, do damage and act as a cover but the torment really inhibits an enemies mobility and this very effective against classes that move around a lot in battle. The build using #3 has a natural ability to kite which forces a chase which pushes those torment ticks up higher. I did find with s/d or D/D condition , poison the better choice.

P/d has no way to apply poison innate to the set. It has ample Torment. In order to get Poison off the P/d set you need a venom or need to trait up panic strike. Panic strike means using #2 which is simply not as efficient as #3 from a damage perspective. When Poison Venom on cooldown you just can not maintain the same number of stacks poison as torment as Torment comes from the sneak attack, #3 and #4 all of which I use. If I am looking for poison in those times in between where a source on cooldown, I am locked into #2 and it just not enough stacks.

The advantages of DE versus DD in the P/d set have a lot to do with the traits mercy , payback , that sneak attack torment add and the nature of the stolen items. Just as example steal off a Revenant and you can easily get 4K and higher torment ticks. Steal off a necro and you can load 20 bleed stacks just with steals. The no port to on steal is also a significant advantage as you really do not want to engage at melee if you can help it. This allows scourges to dump red circles on you, warriors to get their burst and so on. I was playing old style thief the other night and ported to a copule manning a catapult. Instantdead to DH traps stacked.

@saerni.2584 said:

@HitNine.2568 said:With so much condi clear going around - my favourite class/build since release has seen unfortunate nerfs to the point that there are no classes I can 1v1 anymore. With 4k+ hours of experience playing this build, I can't even make a scratch on anybody. Anyone else that plays p/d thief experiencing this?

I dont really think this is possible. I might be wrong but to apply shadowstrike you have to be at your enemy and hit them = you need to get near them and i you really want to pressure past their condi cleanse you gotta be near them quite often so you need a way to blink in which could be signet of agility lets say steal and shadowstepso lets say you see enemy shadowstep to them so you can port right away. you apply 4 stacks of tornment and blink away. Lets say you step on trap or that enemy manages to bind you.You got the shadowstep away okay you are back where you started. Enemy is still on the node. You are therefore neither decaping or caping. You gotta go in again. That 1,5k tornment while he stands and 3,4k if he moves isnt really something he needs to be bothered with or he can simply eaither heal through it or clense.You Steal to him apply 2stacks of poison and poke again with shadowstrike 4 tornments. If he hasnt healed or cleansed he can do it now one of those he didnt do yet if he did one already.He is still at lets say 75% health (i am being generous to your dmg you dealt) You can autoattack for a few bleeds.He is still on the node and prolly it is already capped since you area gain away due to shadowstrike. you have to shoot at him. He has several options block or shoot back at you or simply attack you with melee. Any good player would attack with melee only if the node is already capped.Necro will spam condi fields, ranger will pinpoint you and kill you. Guardian will either trap the point and leave or will port to you, Thief if he is good and still not dead will attack you nowadays mostly power s/d which if you wont dodge or somehow counter you will die to, reve is able to simply go for you it is new stronger thief, i dont know what ele woudl do but prolly he would simply cleanse everything off himself, mesmer?? you are dead already xD, and holo as well.so if you want to still attack you either stealth urself or use signet of agillity first to poke him one more time.then you stealth and either run for your dear life or hide hoping he will leave node.that is how i see it would happen.maybe i am wrong but i play only condi thief and i know how condis work these days and tornment is THE weakest condi there is unless you can spam it like mesmer does. It can at best support your main condi which is bleeds or poison.

EDIT: This is only case if enemy plays defensively he could simply go after you if he caps and in that case it would be completely different story. Still you'd die on on d/p

Trying the Deadeye P/D build—it's seriously lacking in swiftness for WvW. I see the dmg potential but if we get immobilized then we're pretty much dead. Screenshot me your traits in case I am missing something. babazhook.6805 saerni.2584

@HitNine.2568 said:Trying the Deadeye P/D build—it's seriously lacking in swiftness for WvW. I see the dmg potential but if we get immobilized then we're pretty much dead. Screenshot me your traits in case I am missing something. babazhook.6805 saerni.2584

Mine lacks swiftness. It is slower but I prefer Daredevil with Steal’s teleport for a full mobility build.

But I also use Shortbow and Payback with Shadowstep so I don’t have too many mobility problems.

@HitNine.2568 said:Trying the Deadeye P/D build—it's seriously lacking in swiftness for WvW. I see the dmg potential but if we get immobilized then we're pretty much dead. Screenshot me your traits in case I am missing something. babazhook.6805 saerni.2584

I do know hitnine is a longtime p/d main like myself and I do value his opinion on the subject. If he says DD p/d > DE p/d, Id put a lot of stock in that.

@Xtinct.7031 said:

@HitNine.2568 said:Trying the Deadeye P/D build—it's seriously lacking in swiftness for WvW. I see the dmg potential but if we get immobilized then we're pretty much dead. Screenshot me your traits in case I am missing something. babazhook.6805 saerni.2584

I’d be glad to test this theory in NA :-p

When I dropped DD and went Core in my p/d condition build, this before release of DE , the thing I missed most and was the hardest to adapt to was swiftness. You can work around those Immobs with the trait and utility choices but the lack of swiftness is telling. There were a whole lot of times I went "I can't do this" but I stuck it out because I wanted to get out more damage in shorter periods of time. With all the cleanses added I think this even more important.

That said I use SA with hidden thief to help address the swiftness issue. This coupled with SB off hand for the port aways. I find that this combination , mixed in with stealths when one disengaging can get one OUT of a lot of fights. I will also acknowledge that while the disengage potential still there , the build not as good on the chasedown. That said M7 IS an option IF one has a bit of precision in the build. You will run with less might stacks overall and those might stacks harder to apply but you will gain swiftness off the M7 kick in

Alright, so I did a good 12hrs or so over the last 3 days playing DE p/d in WvW. If you want to spare yourself the read, bottom line DD p/d > DE p/d in WvW.

Ok, first off payback, sucks in solo roaming scenarios which is something I do a lot of. I only notice payback being useful in teamcomp/squad roaming. So for solo roaming DE p/d best take Premeditation, squad roaming and nut hugging with tha boiz take payback. If you don't run withdrawal plus ROI, immob and soft cc is a bitch on this DE. This setup using a griving/carrion mix plus food +critdmg comes upto 185% by comparison to holosmith with the same stats, I notice holosmith packs a hell of a harder punch on when in holomode. Malicious sneak attack extra torment stacking dmg just doesn't cut the mustard compared to other hybrids.... This DE build is ideal in a teamcomp situations where you can aid in a focus firing a single target while stealing alot of boons with Rending Shade and Bountiful theft, and honestly ditch the p/d for rifle, lol.

If P/D had maybe a mechanic like infiltrators on the bodyshot or a daze on successful bodyshot land with a small 1.5 icd on the daze.

So here is some sPvP footage. I recorded a few things but I don't have time to edit a lot so it's just raw for now. I still disagree that DD > DE, because the vast majority of P/D DD I see are not suited to fighting against the DE variants and DE have better team fight potential.

Edit:

@Jack Redline.5379@AikijinX.6258

@Xtinct.7031 said:Alright, so I did a good 12hrs or so over the last 3 days playing DE p/d in WvW. If you want to spare yourself the read, bottom line DD p/d > DE p/d in WvW.

Ok, first off payback, sucks in solo roaming scenarios which is something I do a lot of. I only notice payback being useful in teamcomp/squad roaming. So for solo roaming DE p/d best take Premeditation, squad roaming and nut hugging with tha boiz take payback. If you don't run withdrawal plus ROI, immob and soft cc is a kitten on this DE. This setup using a griving/carrion mix plus food +critdmg comes upto 185% by comparison to holosmith with the same stats, I notice holosmith packs a hell of a harder punch on when in holomode. Malicious sneak attack extra torment stacking dmg just doesn't cut the mustard compared to other hybrids.... This DE build is ideal in a teamcomp situations where you can aid in a focus firing a single target while stealing alot of boons with Rending Shade and Bountiful theft, and honestly ditch the p/d for rifle, lol.

If P/D had maybe a mechanic like infiltrators on the bodyshot or a daze on successful bodyshot land with a small 1.5 icd on the daze.

Well I played DD P/d for over a year , switched off and went Core P/d until the DE rollout and my experiences in WvW are different. There soimply nothing that is in the DD line from a damage perspective that really helps the thief. You are not really using Impaling lotus as the UC superior and Impaling lotus not always in range when you dodge and so as far as a Condtion add goes all you really have is the Utilities and this mainly Impairing daggers. Binding shadows is more useful.

Yes payback is subpar if you always in a 1v1 as there little sense in resetting skills in the first place if you killed and donwed your opponent , that said when i am in those situations I still keep it traited and use Guards and the like for a payback reset. Here is the thing with mercy. If you remain battlefielfd aware and note a target low on health such as a second enemy player or a veteran guard in a camp you can quickly mercy reset, get that target downed, gain the lower cooldown effect and then immediately mark and steal the next target. The renewing gaze trait is very useful .

I disagree on the torment add via sneak attack as being not enough. It certainly more then anything out of DD from a damage perspective and if you have some amount of precision so as to build malice faster, you can get a pile of these off in a typical fight. This is added to the bleeds and raw damage.

I do think the set needs a daze but again there no daze add in DD.

Issues with Immobs and the lack of swiftness are the largest downsides , both of these from the defensive side of things which is why I suggest DD better if you want to play a more defensive style. The problem I found with this is when you face those classes with more cleanses the longer you stretch a battle out the more often the enemycan cleanse. In WvW there significant differences in how many cleanses players pack with them. I just find I have more success in P/d with the ability to get that might and use mercy/payback and the added steals (with that stolen items condition) it offers to get more potent stacks on in shorter order.

To each their own.

I’ll add that in WvW I don’t 1v1 so much as 1vX. Payback helps on multiple targets and also off the clones/other NPCs that let you reset cooldowns quickly.

And, as the video above demonstrates, it often helps to lower long duration cooldowns after you finish a fight. An extra Shadow Meld or faster cooldown on Shadowstep may well save you or a teammate.

I can defiantly tell, DE p/d does well in spvp and payback does payoff in this gamemode. My testing for DE p/d was conducted in wvw which has a very different rhythm of gameplay. I still feel that p/d could use alittle something something because other classes running griving stats just seems to lay down the dps just a tad better.

I've played my build in WvW a bit as well. Takes a bit to get used to the new marked mechanic but I'm doing ok because I never really used perma stealth. The duration loss is annoying though.I don't want to seem as though I wouldn't accept a buff but I want to see it applied to the right skills.

• Sneak Attack could use some additional damage given that projectiles can be stopped in many more ways than a melee strike (hello holo autos through a wall).
• I'd also accept a slight daze on Shadowstrike IF it cost the same initiative. This lets you interrupt melee attacks without being able to spam it endlessly in most scenarios.
• Body Shot projectile could be slightly faster. Or the ability could be buffed a bit to compensate for how slow it travels.

I don't think that comparing the DPS on P/D to Holo is fair given that DE has greater stealth access. Also, to an extent Holo damage is mainly overtuned for the range its melee skills get. The damage wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so painfully difficult to avoid with large AoE cc and plenty of gap closers. Shadowstrike can't compete because to land the knife attack you are already well inside the autoattack range and have taken a few hits that hurt a lot more than the range would justify.