Re: The Exalted, and dying

Good day all.

Let me be the first to say that I am not very knowledgeable about GW2 (or even GW in general) lore, so please be kind and patient.

If I understand correctly, the Exalted were once humans (same origin as Zephyrites?) who were tested and prepared for the arrival of Glint's scion, and turned into these nigh-immortal beings.

Also, that if an Exalted's mask is ripped off, it essentially dies.

So, what happens to it at that point? Is it fair to assume that the dead former-Exalted ends up in the Mists? If so, would it be a huge leap to think that they (through some weird alignment of chance/circumstance) could return to Tyria as humans?

Hard to truly say. It's stated that ripping a mask off an exalted results in a "final death", and that's usually associated with destruction of the soul in most fantasy settings.

In GW, the only other use of "final death" is with Dhuum, who has a penchant of consuming souls resulting in said souls never being seen again (unlike when demons eat souls, which results in a centuries-long digestion cycle).

If a human died and went to the Mist, I don't think they can ever come back. The only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones. I don't remember a non-Ascended human to ever come back. However, that was the GW1 lore that no longer applies in GW2.

In GW2, we just marched to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings and went to the Mist without the need of Ascension, then came back whole. However, I guess it is debatable whether the Sunspear Trial was a form of Ascension to gain the favor of Kormir which gave us access to her library, but we're already in the Mist at that point, sooo...anyway...the only humans that comes back are those who still have their human bodies (in case of GW2 even non-humans can go to the Mist and back). The Exalted no longer have human bodies, thus if they ever come back they will be in ghost form.

Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:If a human died and went to the Mist, I don't think they can ever come back. The only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones. I don't remember a non-Ascended human to ever come back. However, that was the GW1 lore that no longer applies in GW2.

You're thinking about living people going into the Mists, but that was pure mechanics, really. A way of gating Underworld and Fissure of Woe as end-game content (or really, mid-game).

Nightfall has no plot of Ascension, yet the PC and all the heroes go into the Realm of Torment and back without issue.

Mad King Thorn wasn't Ascended, yet came back annually as a ghost; so did the Primeval Kings during the first Wintersday.

And there's, of course, Shiro Tagachi who came back despite being dead for 200 years. No Ascension/Weh no Su for him as far as we know.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The Exalted no longer have human bodies, thus if they ever come back they will be in ghost form.Naturally, given that in the context of the question, they died.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.The Eater of Souls didn't give the Commander a new body, however, it was merely a postponed resurrection - something that was common place in GW1, but a lost art in the last 250 years.

And losing one's identity is only the case for those who die truly traumatic deaths, not just any death. For the Commander, the trauma came from watching Aurene get taken by Balthazar, not simply dying in battle.

Thank you all. My question was based on this idea I had for a character, but wanted to see if it was plausible- basically, an Exalted that died, went to the Mists, met Glint, and was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life. (I probably should have mentioned this earlier, apologies.)

@ringswraith.8760 said:was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

Reincarnation is not a clear thing, if that's what you're getting at. Kodan to claim it exists, but there's no solid proof. Plus, Glint died only 5 years prior to the initial game, so anyone who was reincarnated properly would be at most 5.

If you were going for a more resurrection ala Shiro Tagachi (dead for 200 years, comes back in a new body), then memory loss is unlikely a thing, but that resurrection in particular required a living sacrifice (possibly specifically of a magically powerful individual), and resurrection in general has been a lost art for quite some time.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@ringswraith.8760 said:was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

The Forged may qualify, they've been pulled out of the mists, given new bodies and been killed again.

@"Castigator.3470" said:The Forged may qualify, they've been pulled out of the mists, given new bodies and been killed again.

I wouldn't call "being put into an object that functions against your will" to be a form of resurrection. Besides, if we count that, then the Exalted are already resurrected, given that Forged were made using Exalted rituals, but powered by Balthazar's magic and put into different shaped containers.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@ringswraith.8760 said:was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

Actually... Wouldn't the Exalted have been around for much longer? Even if Glint did just die 5 years prior to game start, that doesn't mean any Exalted who was somehow reincarnated would only be 5.

@ringswraith.8760 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@ringswraith.8760 said:was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

If they met Glint in the Mists, and then 'was punted back to the living as a revenant' but with very little memories of his previous life' then no. That timeline would mean they've been back for... well, four years at most, right now, if you hold to Rytlock being the first revenant, although many roleplayers do choose to throw out that bit.

Besides, in the three locations we've encountered Exalted- Tarir, Kesho, and the Forge- they wouldn't have had much opportunity to die until shortly before our character's arrival at a given location. Tarir was in lockdown from the time it was finished to when Aurene's egg was brought into the jungle, the only violent incident we've heard of in Kesho's past was when it sank because of the Elon, and the Forge seems untouched until we lure Kralkatorrik to it.

Asura seem to imply a form of reincarnation, with the talk of their dead rejoining a cycle at least. Though it might be some form of a law of conservation at play maybe.

Good points about the timeline. Thank you!

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Castigator.3470" said:The Forged may qualify, they've been pulled out of the mists, given new bodies and been killed again.

So, what is your estimation, are the Forged and Exalted undead, or constructs, or something in between?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:If a human died and went to the Mist, I don't think they can ever come back. The only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones. I don't remember a non-Ascended human to ever come back. However, that was the GW1 lore that no longer applies in GW2.

Nightfall assumes that the PC is already ascended since it is a continuation for both Prophesies and Factions. PCs that started in Istan are already has the favor of the gods."Paragons are touched by the gods, chosen by them to serve as emissaries among mortals" and the Dervish can transform to "become the physical embodiment of a god". The Order of the Sunspear are the gods "chosen champions of Elona." I say, they have already Ascended.

Mad King Thorn wasn't Ascended, yet came back annually as a ghost; so did the Primeval Kings during the first Wintersday.

Yes, as a ghost. The Primeval Kings are ghosts too.

And there's, of course, Shiro Tagachi who came back despite being dead for 200 years. No Ascension/Weh no Su for him as far as we know.

Shiro came back because he was never dead? This detail is confusing since he gain a body when he became an Envoy? Not sure.

However, he physically manifested only after using Master Togo's body (flesh and blood) to restore his.

Shiro being an Envoy probably per-requisite some kind of Ascension. He said in the final battle, "I am no mere spirit, mortal. Like a god I have breathed life into this body." Which means, he has Ascended since Ascension is basically to become like a god that's why Ascended mortals can go to the Mist.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The Exalted no longer have human bodies, thus if they ever come back they will be in ghost form.Naturally, given that in the context of the question, they died.

Well, did they died before becoming an Exalted, or their spirit and consciousness simply transferred to an Exalted leaving their body to die just like how Blish was? If they were transferred, they didn't technically died. Only destroying the Exalted body that they die, which I believe what the question was about.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.The Eater of Souls didn't give the Commander a new body, however, it was merely a postponed resurrection - something that was common place in GW1, but a lost art in the last 250 years.

Well, I used the word "if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater" instead of "when they regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater" only because I think what happened to the Commander is a one time deal.

And losing one's identity is only the case for those who die truly traumatic deaths, not just any death. For the Commander, the trauma came from watching Aurene get taken by Balthazar, not simply dying in battle.

Not sure about that. In GW1, there are many lost souls that lost their identity and just wandering around the Underworld (e.g. Lost Soul). However, there are some with lingering emotional attachment to the living world that they still kept some of their identity and memories. I believe that when the human dies, they lose all memory and identity and only if they have emotional attachment that they retain some of them. For example, Sarah, Gwen's mother, has kept her memory and identity even after going through a traumatic experience of the Searing and missing her daughter.

@ringswraith.8760 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@ringswraith.8760 said:was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

The Exalted existed before Vlast since they were created to take care of Glint's egg and built the city of Kesho where Vlast was born. So yes, they've been around longer.

@Castigator.3470 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Castigator.3470 said:The Forged may qualify, they've been pulled out of the mists, given new bodies and been killed again.

Possessed construct.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Nightfall assumes that the PC is already ascended since it is a continuation for both Prophesies and Factions. PCs that started in Istan are already has the favor of the gods."Paragons are touched by the gods, chosen by them to serve as emissaries among mortals" and the Dervish can transform to "become the physical embodiment of a god". The Order of the Sunspear are the gods "chosen champions of Elona." I say, they have already Ascended.

It actually doesn't. While it is a continuation, and heroes from both lands show up, it is also a standalone. Even then, native Elonian heroes and henchmen would never have gone through Ascension or Weh no Su, yet they enter the Mists fine. And leave them fine.

None of them are Ascended, as it should be pretty clear in both games, Ascension is a rather rare and challenging process.

Yes, as a ghost. The Primeval Kings are ghosts too.My point was that ghosts returned from the Mists in GW1. Which you said wasn't the case until GW2.

Shiro came back because he was never dead? This detail is confusing since he gain a body when he became an Envoy? Not sure.

However, he physically manifested only after using Master Togo's body (flesh and blood) to restore his.

Shiro being an Envoy probably per-requisite some kind of Ascension. He said in the final battle, "I am no mere spirit, mortal. Like a god I have breathed life into this body." Which means, he has Ascended since Ascension is basically to become like a god that's why Ascended mortals can go to the Mist.

Of course Shiro was dead. He died when he was killed by Vizu, Archemorus, and Viktor. His death unleashed the Jade Wind. He wandered the Underworld for 200 years, before becoming an Envoy, which he then used such powers to create the Afflicted plague and eventually resurrect himself.

The Envoys do not have a body. They're transparent, because they are ghosts.

Well, did they died before becoming an Exalted, or their spirit and consciousness simply transferred to an Exalted leaving their body to die just like how Blish was? If they were transferred, they didn't technically died. Only destroying the Exalted body that they die, which I believe what the question was about.

Your sentence was basically saying "if the Exalted died, went to the Mists, and came back, it'd be as ghosts". My response: naturally, because they died before going to the Mists and coming back.

If the Exalted function the same as Forged, which is likely, then they technically died to become Exalted.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.The Eater of Souls didn't give the Commander a new body, however, it was merely a postponed resurrection - something that was common place in GW1, but a lost art in the last 250 years.

Lost Spirit: I'm not sure why I'm here, or even who I am.The Judge: That's because most spirits find their own way to their fate when they die.The Judge: But those whose deaths are too traumatic often forget who they were or how they perished.Nenah: These spirits, like you and me, end up here in the Domain of the Lost.

Most spirits will find their own way, so over 50% of people will not lose their identity and memories when dying. Those that do lose their memory/identity, end up in the Domain of the Lost until they recover such.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Castigator.3470 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Nightfall assumes that the PC is already ascended since it is a continuation for both Prophesies and Factions. PCs that started in Istan are already has the favor of the gods."Paragons are touched by the gods, chosen by them to serve as emissaries among mortals" and the Dervish can transform to "become the physical embodiment of a god". The Order of the Sunspear are the gods "chosen champions of Elona." I say, they have already Ascended.

We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

Yes, as a ghost. The Primeval Kings are ghosts too.My point was that ghosts returned from the Mists in GW1. Which you said wasn't the case until GW2.

You misunderstood what I posted. I said humans, meaning body and souls, etc., not ghosts. Coming back as a ghost was a given, thus I said coming back a human, flesh and bones and all.

Shiro came back because he was never dead? This detail is confusing since he gain a body when he became an Envoy? Not sure.

However, he physically manifested only after using Master Togo's body (flesh and blood) to restore his.

Shiro being an Envoy probably per-requisite some kind of Ascension. He said in the final battle, "I am no mere spirit, mortal. Like a god I have breathed life into this body." Which means, he has Ascended since Ascension is basically to become like a god that's why Ascended mortals can go to the Mist.

Yeah, my memory is fuzzy about this one.

Well, did they died before becoming an Exalted, or their spirit and consciousness simply transferred to an Exalted leaving their body to die just like how Blish was? If they were transferred, they didn't technically died. Only destroying the Exalted body that they die, which I believe what the question was about.

There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.The Eater of Souls didn't give the Commander a new body, however, it was merely a postponed resurrection - something that was common place in GW1, but a lost art in the last 250 years.

Then the Shiro way, maybe?

Not sure about that. In GW1, there are many lost souls that lost their identity and just wandering around the Underworld (e.g. Lost Soul). However, there are some with lingering emotional attachment to the living world that they still kept some of their identity and memories. I believe that when the human dies, they lose all memory and identity and only if they have emotional attachment that they retain some of them. For example, Sarah, Gwen's mother, has kept her memory and identity even after going through a traumatic experience of the Searing and missing her daughter.It's pretty explicitly stated that the Domain of the Lost and the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths. It might not be for all traumatic death (maybe Sarah didn't die traumatized in the Searing, maybe she didn't even see the crystal coming down on her), but it certainly isn't for all deaths.

Yes, that was the intent of the Domain of the Lost, however, "the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths" is not consistent with GW1's lore. There are ghost in the Underworld who died traumatically but didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost. The traumatic death doesn't necessarily leads to memory loss.

The Domain of the Lost is the place if one died traumatically AND forgotten themselves. Which makes it consistent with GW1 lore since one can die traumatically but if they didn't forget, they don't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like Sarah. There are also those who didn't die a traumatic death, yet they lose their memory and still didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like the Lost Soul. This domain requires dying traumatically and losing memory.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

Ascension wasn't obtained through favor or blessing from gods. Besides, all professions are said to be related to divinity in GW1, with patronage in magic and whatnot. Especially Monks. Are all monks automatically Ascended? I think not.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

We don't really even know what "the Blish way" is. You can't really say Blish never technically died. If Blish is just a soul controlling a golem - which is likely the case - then he technically did die as it would be the same as Forged and Shiro'ken except he has self-control. The act of a soul leaving a body is death, for all intents and purposes. That body becomes a lifeless corpse without a soul.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Yes, that was the intent of the Domain of the Lost, however, "the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths" is not consistent with GW1's lore. There are ghost in the Underworld who died traumatically but didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost. The traumatic death doesn't necessarily leads to memory loss.

Like I said, we never saw Sarah's death. How can you be so certain it was traumatic?

Dying in a natural disaster isn't always traumatic. Dying in battle isn't always traumatic. It's all about the specifics, and we don't know the specifics for your claims. Her first dialogue without Gwen sounds like she doesn't even realize she's dead, which suggests she died instantaneously - that is not a traumatic death.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The Domain of the Lost is the place if one died traumatically AND forgotten themselves. Which makes it consistent with GW1 lore since one can die traumatically but if they didn't forget, they don't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like Sarah. There are also those who didn't die a traumatic death, yet they lose their memory and still didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like the Lost Soul. This domain requires dying traumatically and losing memory.

There's no evidence of people losing their memory even without dying traumatically. That Lost Soul clearly knows who he is. He's not lost because he can't remember himself, he's lost because he's not at the afterlife he belongs. He's basically literally lost.

It's Lost Soul, not Forgot-Himself Soul.

You're making assumptions and presenting them as fact.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

The fact that the members of the Order of the Sunspears did not need to go through the Ascended process says otherwise. Monks that are members of the Order did not need to go through the Ascension process either.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Yes, that was the intent of the Domain of the Lost, however,

"the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths"

is not consistent with GW1's lore. There are ghost in the Underworld who died traumatically but didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost. The traumatic death doesn't necessarily leads to memory loss.

Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling.

Dying in a natural disaster isn't always traumatic. Dying in battle isn't always traumatic. It's all about the specifics, and we don't know the specifics for your claims. Her first dialogue without Gwen sounds like she doesn't even realize she's dead, which suggests she died instantaneously - that is not a traumatic death.

I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The Domain of the Lost is the place if one died traumatically AND forgotten themselves. Which makes it consistent with GW1 lore since one can die traumatically but if they didn't forget, they don't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like Sarah. There are also those who didn't die a traumatic death, yet they lose their memory and still didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like the Lost Soul. This domain requires dying traumatically and losing memory.

The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are. They cannot be judged if they don't know who they were. The Judge said, "Once you know your name and your purpose, only then can I determine your final destination." If the Lost Soul failed to do so, they wanders aimlessly in the Underworld.

In the Realm of Torment, souls lose their memory because their memory are eaten. There is a quest in there to kill a mob to restore their memory.

In the Underworld in GW1, lost souls are every where because they have forgotten who they were. One specific Lost Soul who gave you quest finds it odd that he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement, not because he's literally lost, it's because he has forgotten who he is. He can't face judgement without knowing who he is. The judge won't be able to determine hi final destination. His death is obviously not traumatic since he didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost.

It's Lost Soul, not Forgot-Himself Soul.

He is lost because he has forgotten. Nenah in the Domain of the Lost is helping other Lost Soul to find themselves. She used to be a Lost Soul, shes no longer lost after finding herself.

You're making assumptions and presenting them as fact.

You're the one assuming that they are literally lost without considering the facts.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

At this point, I'd argue that it's simply unclear whether Ascension has anything to do with the gods or not. It was very much presented as being the case in Prophecies, but that presentation required a framework that's been retconned since, and the whole concept's been hanging in a state of limbo as a result. There are multiple valid interpretations until ANet clarifies things, and the precedent is that such clarification will favor whatever explanation makes Ascension most relevantly applicable to the plot point it's being reintroduced for. Until we know what that plot point is- hopefully next episode, but there's no guarantees- it's going to be difficult to extrapolate anything from it.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

As for Blish... we don't know enough to say what state he's in. He might be a soul in a golem body, in which case he'd get be similar to the Exalted, but he also might just be a programmed copy of the original Blish's consciousness, without a soul, in which case he'd be a fifth category including regular golems and over constructs.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

From a mechanical viewpoint, as Aaron states, Nightfall PCs cannot enter the Mists until completing the Hunted! quest. However, from a lore standpoint, we're not talking about just Order of the Sunspear figures entering the Realm of Torment and being fine...

Zenmai. Olias. Morgahn. Master of Whispers. Norgu. Goren. Margrid the Sly. Zhed. Tahlkora (technically). Sousuke. Jin.

They all enter the Realm of Torment - enter the Mists - and return, all without issues. And that's not even getting into the NPCs like the Order of Whispers and the 'greatest hunter' who ever lived, Zehtuka.

So even if you argue that flimsy argument of "just simply becoming a member of the Order of the Sunspears automatically makes you Ascended somehow" (which makes no sense given the lore of Ascension), this still does not explain all the NPCs that enter the Realm of Torment.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

Does the body have a pulse? No? Then it's medically deceased.

I mean, in the argument that a talking vase possessed by a spirit is not dead (and your definition does, indeed, fit this - the vase is functioning as a body, and they can interact with others), then what is death anyways? Being a spirit and walking about might as well be "not dead".

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling.

Renault: "I feel so... transparent."Anson: "I know what you mean. Just once I'd like someone to see the real me."Renault: "I see you, Anson."Anson: "Thanks."Renault: "Anson, do you remember getting here?"Anson: "Not really. I just recall blinding flashes of light and fire falling from the sky. I think the world ended, but I'm not sure."

The souls right next to Sarah, who died in the Searing, literally state they don't know how they die.

Looking for Gwen wasn't necessarily "the last thing she was doing", after all, talking about being transparent is pretty unlikely to be the last thing Renault was doing before dying. Sarah's likely looking for Gwen because she expected that Gwen died too given that when the two meet, Sarah says this:

Sarah: "Gwen! Oh...my! Look how you've grown! How many years have passed me by in this place...? I feared I would never seen you again; that you were lost to me forever.

Sarah doesn't easily recognize the passage of time, but she recognizes that she's dead, but was trying to find her daughter in the afterlife.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met.It's ironic, you see all the evidence before you, but you come to the opposite conclusion because you're so deadset on your definition.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are.

Some of them, yes. But all of them? Is it ever stated that every Lost Spirit has lost their memory? This one seems pretty damn self-knowing if you ask me.

In the Realm of Torment, souls lose their memory because their memory are eaten. There is a quest in there to kill a mob to restore their memory.

That's a Wandering Soul not Lost Soul... The others are there by name.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In the Underworld in GW1, lost souls are every where because they have forgotten who they were. One specific Lost Soul who gave you quest finds it odd that he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement, not because he's literally lost, it's because he has forgotten who he is. He can't face judgement without knowing who he is. The judge won't be able to determine hi final destination. His death is obviously not traumatic since he didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost.

And yet, he knows he dies. He knows who he is. He's just confused why he's not at the Hall of Judgment that he always heard was where souls go to be judged (it's actually Dhuum's prison, so not likely where souls are judged in all honesty).

"It's odd. I thought after you died, you were sent to the Hall of Judgment so that Grenth could choose your eternal fate. At first, I was relieved to find myself here instead, but...I don't want to be stuck here for eternity either.""I'd like to explore around a bit, but the other side of this chamber is full of those terrible grasping darkness creatures, servants of the Terrorweb demons if I remember my lore right. One of us tried to go past them, and they struck him down and swallowed his soul! Please help us. Clear this chamber of these phantoms and their Terrorweb masters!"

"Maybe if you destroy all these grasping darkness phantoms and Terrorweb, Grenth will summon us or send someone to talk to us or something. Anything's got to be better than being stuck here."

Like I said: he seems to be pretty damn sure of himself and his memory.

Unlike the Commander or those Orrian souls who lost their memory, who literally didn't know how the afterlife worked, where they were, what they were, why they were.

There's a very stark contrast between this "Lost Soul" and the memory-forgotten souls.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

So then please explain how the PC, without Ascending, is allowed to enter the Mist? So far, you're only complaining without offering an alternative explanation.

Non-Elonian PC can only commune with the gods while praying on a shrine, Dervish does it on the whim where ever, whenever. Their connection to the gods is obviously far greater than that of a Tyrian or a Canthan Ascended. Paragon's Arias and Chants are different forms of prayers to the gods. The facts are there, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Zehtuka is irrelevant in this discussion since he does things that no normal humans should be able to do and go where human should not been able to go. He is a mystery on its own. You're assuming that he's not Ascended, well he does things that only Ascended individuals could.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

I'm sure the Sylvaris disagree with your interpretation.

I mean, in the argument that a talking vase possessed by a spirit is not dead (and your definition does, indeed, fit this - the vase is functioning as a body, and they can interact with others), then what is death anyways? Being a spirit and walking about might as well be "not dead".

You tell me. You're the one having trouble distinguishing who is dead and who is alive in GW. According to you, Blish, without a pulse, is dead.

I've already explained, death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist. If they didn't end up in the Mist, they are not dead. This is why we get to kill the Ascalonian Ghosts over and over again, yet they don't die and still comes back. Their souls have transferred to the land of Ascalon, no different than them attaching to a vase. Without their soul being transferred into another medium, their soul will end up in the Mist then they are officially dead.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling.

You said Sarah might have died instantly and that she doesn't even know that she's dead. You are now contradicting your previous statement here.

It is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen.

Your take makes zero sense.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met.It's ironic, you see all the evidence before you, but you come to the opposite conclusion because you're so deadset on your definition.

Again, "it is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen."

What exactly is the opposite of that conclusion?

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are.

That's the same Lost Soul who wonders why he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement. As I have already explained, the soul cannot be judge if they have forgotten themselves. The fact that he is there and not in the Hall proves that he has forgotten himself.

Unless of course you're trying to argue that someone mishandled his application and lost his paper works, then I digress.

In the Realm of Torment, souls lose their memory because their memory are eaten. There is a quest in there to kill a mob to restore their memory.

He is not lost because he has retained his memory.

You're argument was, "There's no evidence of people losing their memory even without dying traumatically." That's the proof that some lose their memory because they were taken.

You also just agreed to this statement i said, "The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are" and then you said, "Some of them, yes." Which is another proof that even you acknowledge that "people losing their memory even without dying traumatically"

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In the Underworld in GW1, lost souls are every where because they have forgotten who they were. One specific Lost Soul who gave you quest finds it odd that he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement, not because he's literally lost, it's because he has forgotten who he is. He can't face judgement without knowing who he is. The judge won't be able to determine hi final destination. His death is obviously not traumatic since he didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost.

Doubtful. He remembers what the process is supposed to be, or he learned it from others while waiting there in the Underworld, but he has forgotten who he is. The simple fact that he is not in the Halls of Judgement is proof that he has forgotten himself.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

Lore said that he transferred his consciousness into the golem which debunks the copy theory that he's Just. A. Rather. Very. Intelligent. System. without a soul.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

I'm not sure the Ascended status of the Nightfall hero was canon so much as it was they just didn't really want to shoehorn a third variant into the plot. I.e., it might have been more about mechanics and balance than lore.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:So then please explain how the PC, without Ascending, is allowed to enter the Mist? So far, you're only complaining without offering an alternative explanation.Because Ascension is not required to enter the Mists. As I've said from the beginning.

Are you even reading my posts? I'm pretty sure you're not. So this will be my last.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:You tell me. You're the one having trouble distinguishing who is dead and who is alive in GW. According to you, Blish, without a pulse, is dead.If he's a soul inhabiting a golem then, yes, he's clinically dead.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I've already explained, death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist. If they didn't end up in the Mist, they are not dead. This is why we get to kill the Ascalonian Ghosts over and over again, yet they don't die and still comes back. Their souls have transferred to the land of Ascalon, no different than them attaching to a vase. Without their soul being transferred into another medium, their soul will end up in the Mist then they are officially dead.

So Crusader Aliyana, who states she experienced death, is, in fact, alive?

You realize how flawed your argument is yet?

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

In the Realm of Torment, souls lose their memory because their memory are eaten. There is a quest in there to kill a mob to restore their memory.

But not all lost spirits have forgotten themselves, such as the lost spirit at the beginning of The Underworld in GW1.

I did not agree with your statement, I disagreed because you're statement is over-encompassing.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Doubtful. He remembers what the process is supposed to be, or he learned it from others while waiting there in the Underworld, but he has forgotten who he is. The simple fact that he is not in the Halls of Judgement is proof that he has forgotten himself.

And the Commander and other Lost Souls in the Domain of the Lost remembers nothing, not even "what the process is supposed to be".

That's the key difference.

And literally nothing in his dialogue suggests he forgot who he was.

The simple fact that the Hall of Judgment is never shown to be used for judging, and we see judging occur elsewhere, is completely counter to your "simple fact".