Re: The Exalted, and dying — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Re: The Exalted, and dying

Good day all.

Let me be the first to say that I am not very knowledgeable about GW2 (or even GW in general) lore, so please be kind and patient.

If I understand correctly, the Exalted were once humans (same origin as Zephyrites?) who were tested and prepared for the arrival of Glint's scion, and turned into these nigh-immortal beings.

Also, that if an Exalted's mask is ripped off, it essentially dies.

So, what happens to it at that point? Is it fair to assume that the dead former-Exalted ends up in the Mists? If so, would it be a huge leap to think that they (through some weird alignment of chance/circumstance) could return to Tyria as humans?

<1

Answers

  • Hard to truly say. It's stated that ripping a mask off an exalted results in a "final death", and that's usually associated with destruction of the soul in most fantasy settings.

    In GW, the only other use of "final death" is with Dhuum, who has a penchant of consuming souls resulting in said souls never being seen again (unlike when demons eat souls, which results in a centuries-long digestion cycle).

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2019

    If a human died and went to the Mist, I don't think they can ever come back. The only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones. I don't remember a non-Ascended human to ever come back. However, that was the GW1 lore that no longer applies in GW2.

    In GW2, we just marched to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings and went to the Mist without the need of Ascension, then came back whole. However, I guess it is debatable whether the Sunspear Trial was a form of Ascension to gain the favor of Kormir which gave us access to her library, but we're already in the Mist at that point, sooo...anyway...the only humans that comes back are those who still have their human bodies (in case of GW2 even non-humans can go to the Mist and back). The Exalted no longer have human bodies, thus if they ever come back they will be in ghost form.

    Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    If a human died and went to the Mist, I don't think they can ever come back. The only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones. I don't remember a non-Ascended human to ever come back. However, that was the GW1 lore that no longer applies in GW2.

    You're thinking about living people going into the Mists, but that was pure mechanics, really. A way of gating Underworld and Fissure of Woe as end-game content (or really, mid-game).

    Nightfall has no plot of Ascension, yet the PC and all the heroes go into the Realm of Torment and back without issue.

    Mad King Thorn wasn't Ascended, yet came back annually as a ghost; so did the Primeval Kings during the first Wintersday.

    And there's, of course, Shiro Tagachi who came back despite being dead for 200 years. No Ascension/Weh no Su for him as far as we know.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Exalted no longer have human bodies, thus if they ever come back they will be in ghost form.

    Naturally, given that in the context of the question, they died.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.

    The Eater of Souls didn't give the Commander a new body, however, it was merely a postponed resurrection - something that was common place in GW1, but a lost art in the last 250 years.

    And losing one's identity is only the case for those who die truly traumatic deaths, not just any death. For the Commander, the trauma came from watching Aurene get taken by Balthazar, not simply dying in battle.

  • Thank you all. My question was based on this idea I had for a character, but wanted to see if it was plausible- basically, an Exalted that died, went to the Mists, met Glint, and was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life. (I probably should have mentioned this earlier, apologies.)

  • @ringswraith.8760 said:
    was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

    Reincarnation is not a clear thing, if that's what you're getting at. Kodan to claim it exists, but there's no solid proof. Plus, Glint died only 5 years prior to the initial game, so anyone who was reincarnated properly would be at most 5.

    If you were going for a more resurrection ala Shiro Tagachi (dead for 200 years, comes back in a new body), then memory loss is unlikely a thing, but that resurrection in particular required a living sacrifice (possibly specifically of a magically powerful individual), and resurrection in general has been a lost art for quite some time.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @ringswraith.8760 said:
    was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

    Reincarnation is not a clear thing, if that's what you're getting at. Kodan to claim it exists, but there's no solid proof. Plus, Glint died only 5 years prior to the initial game, so anyone who was reincarnated properly would be at most 5.

    If you were going for a more resurrection ala Shiro Tagachi (dead for 200 years, comes back in a new body), then memory loss is unlikely a thing, but that resurrection in particular required a living sacrifice (possibly specifically of a magically powerful individual), and resurrection in general has been a lost art for quite some time.

    The Forged may qualify, they've been pulled out of the mists, given new bodies and been killed again.

  • @Castigator.3470 said:
    The Forged may qualify, they've been pulled out of the mists, given new bodies and been killed again.

    I wouldn't call "being put into an object that functions against your will" to be a form of resurrection. Besides, if we count that, then the Exalted are already resurrected, given that Forged were made using Exalted rituals, but powered by Balthazar's magic and put into different shaped containers.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @ringswraith.8760 said:
    was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

    Reincarnation is not a clear thing, if that's what you're getting at. Kodan to claim it exists, but there's no solid proof. Plus, Glint died only 5 years prior to the initial game, so anyone who was reincarnated properly would be at most 5.

    If you were going for a more resurrection ala Shiro Tagachi (dead for 200 years, comes back in a new body), then memory loss is unlikely a thing, but that resurrection in particular required a living sacrifice (possibly specifically of a magically powerful individual), and resurrection in general has been a lost art for quite some time.

    Actually... Wouldn't the Exalted have been around for much longer? Even if Glint did just die 5 years prior to game start, that doesn't mean any Exalted who was somehow reincarnated would only be 5.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019

    @ringswraith.8760 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @ringswraith.8760 said:
    was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

    Reincarnation is not a clear thing, if that's what you're getting at. Kodan to claim it exists, but there's no solid proof. Plus, Glint died only 5 years prior to the initial game, so anyone who was reincarnated properly would be at most 5.

    If you were going for a more resurrection ala Shiro Tagachi (dead for 200 years, comes back in a new body), then memory loss is unlikely a thing, but that resurrection in particular required a living sacrifice (possibly specifically of a magically powerful individual), and resurrection in general has been a lost art for quite some time.

    Actually... Wouldn't the Exalted have been around for much longer? Even if Glint did just die 5 years prior to game start, that doesn't mean any Exalted who was somehow reincarnated would only be 5.

    If they met Glint in the Mists, and then 'was punted back to the living as a revenant' but with very little memories of his previous life' then no. That timeline would mean they've been back for... well, four years at most, right now, if you hold to Rytlock being the first revenant, although many roleplayers do choose to throw out that bit.

    Besides, in the three locations we've encountered Exalted- Tarir, Kesho, and the Forge- they wouldn't have had much opportunity to die until shortly before our character's arrival at a given location. Tarir was in lockdown from the time it was finished to when Aurene's egg was brought into the jungle, the only violent incident we've heard of in Kesho's past was when it sank because of the Elon, and the Forge seems untouched until we lure Kralkatorrik to it.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Asura seem to imply a form of reincarnation, with the talk of their dead rejoining a cycle at least. Though it might be some form of a law of conservation at play maybe.

  • Good points about the timeline. Thank you!

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Castigator.3470 said:
    The Forged may qualify, they've been pulled out of the mists, given new bodies and been killed again.

    I wouldn't call "being put into an object that functions against your will" to be a form of resurrection. Besides, if we count that, then the Exalted are already resurrected, given that Forged were made using Exalted rituals, but powered by Balthazar's magic and put into different shaped containers.

    So, what is your estimation, are the Forged and Exalted undead, or constructs, or something in between?

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    If a human died and went to the Mist, I don't think they can ever come back. The only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones. I don't remember a non-Ascended human to ever come back. However, that was the GW1 lore that no longer applies in GW2.

    You're thinking about living people going into the Mists, but that was pure mechanics, really. A way of gating Underworld and Fissure of Woe as end-game content (or really, mid-game).

    Nightfall has no plot of Ascension, yet the PC and all the heroes go into the Realm of Torment and back without issue.

    Nightfall assumes that the PC is already ascended since it is a continuation for both Prophesies and Factions. PCs that started in Istan are already has the favor of the gods.
    "Paragons are touched by the gods, chosen by them to serve as emissaries among mortals" and the Dervish can transform to "become the physical embodiment of a god". The Order of the Sunspear are the gods "chosen champions of Elona." I say, they have already Ascended.

    Mad King Thorn wasn't Ascended, yet came back annually as a ghost; so did the Primeval Kings during the first Wintersday.

    Yes, as a ghost. The Primeval Kings are ghosts too.

    And there's, of course, Shiro Tagachi who came back despite being dead for 200 years. No Ascension/Weh no Su for him as far as we know.

    Shiro came back because he was never dead? This detail is confusing since he gain a body when he became an Envoy? Not sure.

    However, he physically manifested only after using Master Togo's body (flesh and blood) to restore his.

    Shiro being an Envoy probably per-requisite some kind of Ascension. He said in the final battle, "I am no mere spirit, mortal. Like a god I have breathed life into this body." Which means, he has Ascended since Ascension is basically to become like a god that's why Ascended mortals can go to the Mist.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Exalted no longer have human bodies, thus if they ever come back they will be in ghost form.

    Naturally, given that in the context of the question, they died.

    Well, did they died before becoming an Exalted, or their spirit and consciousness simply transferred to an Exalted leaving their body to die just like how Blish was? If they were transferred, they didn't technically died. Only destroying the Exalted body that they die, which I believe what the question was about.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.

    The Eater of Souls didn't give the Commander a new body, however, it was merely a postponed resurrection - something that was common place in GW1, but a lost art in the last 250 years.

    Well, I used the word "if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater" instead of "when they regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater" only because I think what happened to the Commander is a one time deal.

    And losing one's identity is only the case for those who die truly traumatic deaths, not just any death. For the Commander, the trauma came from watching Aurene get taken by Balthazar, not simply dying in battle.

    Not sure about that. In GW1, there are many lost souls that lost their identity and just wandering around the Underworld (e.g. Lost Soul). However, there are some with lingering emotional attachment to the living world that they still kept some of their identity and memories. I believe that when the human dies, they lose all memory and identity and only if they have emotional attachment that they retain some of them. For example, Sarah, Gwen's mother, has kept her memory and identity even after going through a traumatic experience of the Searing and missing her daughter.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @ringswraith.8760 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @ringswraith.8760 said:
    was punted back to the living as a revenant but with very little memories of his previous life.

    Reincarnation is not a clear thing, if that's what you're getting at. Kodan to claim it exists, but there's no solid proof. Plus, Glint died only 5 years prior to the initial game, so anyone who was reincarnated properly would be at most 5.

    If you were going for a more resurrection ala Shiro Tagachi (dead for 200 years, comes back in a new body), then memory loss is unlikely a thing, but that resurrection in particular required a living sacrifice (possibly specifically of a magically powerful individual), and resurrection in general has been a lost art for quite some time.

    Actually... Wouldn't the Exalted have been around for much longer? Even if Glint did just die 5 years prior to game start, that doesn't mean any Exalted who was somehow reincarnated would only be 5.

    The Exalted existed before Vlast since they were created to take care of Glint's egg and built the city of Kesho where Vlast was born. So yes, they've been around longer.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Castigator.3470 said:
    The Forged may qualify, they've been pulled out of the mists, given new bodies and been killed again.

    I wouldn't call "being put into an object that functions against your will" to be a form of resurrection. Besides, if we count that, then the Exalted are already resurrected, given that Forged were made using Exalted rituals, but powered by Balthazar's magic and put into different shaped containers.

    So, what is your estimation, are the Forged and Exalted undead, or constructs, or something in between?

    Possessed construct.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Nightfall assumes that the PC is already ascended since it is a continuation for both Prophesies and Factions. PCs that started in Istan are already has the favor of the gods.
    "Paragons are touched by the gods, chosen by them to serve as emissaries among mortals" and the Dervish can transform to "become the physical embodiment of a god". The Order of the Sunspear are the gods "chosen champions of Elona." I say, they have already Ascended.

    It actually doesn't. While it is a continuation, and heroes from both lands show up, it is also a standalone. Even then, native Elonian heroes and henchmen would never have gone through Ascension or Weh no Su, yet they enter the Mists fine. And leave them fine.

    None of them are Ascended, as it should be pretty clear in both games, Ascension is a rather rare and challenging process.

    Yes, as a ghost. The Primeval Kings are ghosts too.

    My point was that ghosts returned from the Mists in GW1. Which you said wasn't the case until GW2.

    Shiro came back because he was never dead? This detail is confusing since he gain a body when he became an Envoy? Not sure.

    However, he physically manifested only after using Master Togo's body (flesh and blood) to restore his.

    Shiro being an Envoy probably per-requisite some kind of Ascension. He said in the final battle, "I am no mere spirit, mortal. Like a god I have breathed life into this body." Which means, he has Ascended since Ascension is basically to become like a god that's why Ascended mortals can go to the Mist.

    Of course Shiro was dead. He died when he was killed by Vizu, Archemorus, and Viktor. His death unleashed the Jade Wind. He wandered the Underworld for 200 years, before becoming an Envoy, which he then used such powers to create the Afflicted plague and eventually resurrect himself.

    The Envoys do not have a body. They're transparent, because they are ghosts.

    Well, did they died before becoming an Exalted, or their spirit and consciousness simply transferred to an Exalted leaving their body to die just like how Blish was? If they were transferred, they didn't technically died. Only destroying the Exalted body that they die, which I believe what the question was about.

    Your sentence was basically saying "if the Exalted died, went to the Mists, and came back, it'd be as ghosts". My response: naturally, because they died before going to the Mists and coming back.

    If the Exalted function the same as Forged, which is likely, then they technically died to become Exalted.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.

    The Eater of Souls didn't give the Commander a new body, however, it was merely a postponed resurrection - something that was common place in GW1, but a lost art in the last 250 years.

    Well, I used the word "if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater" instead of "when they regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater" only because I think what happened to the Commander is a one time deal.

    It wasn't really a one-time deal. That particular eater of souls? Sure. But a multitude of demons would and do eat souls, and many of them if not any of them would be viable to kill to obtain a burst of life energy to self-resurrect. But to do that, one needs a body. And the Exalted's bodies rather decayed 200 years ago.

    Not sure about that. In GW1, there are many lost souls that lost their identity and just wandering around the Underworld (e.g. Lost Soul). However, there are some with lingering emotional attachment to the living world that they still kept some of their identity and memories. I believe that when the human dies, they lose all memory and identity and only if they have emotional attachment that they retain some of them. For example, Sarah, Gwen's mother, has kept her memory and identity even after going through a traumatic experience of the Searing and missing her daughter.

    It's pretty explicitly stated that the Domain of the Lost and the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths. It might not be for all traumatic death (maybe Sarah didn't die traumatized in the Searing, maybe she didn't even see the crystal coming down on her), but it certainly isn't for all deaths.

    Lost Spirit: I'm not sure why I'm here, or even who I am.
    The Judge: That's because most spirits find their own way to their fate when they die.
    The Judge: But those whose deaths are too traumatic often forget who they were or how they perished.
    Nenah: These spirits, like you and me, end up here in the Domain of the Lost.

    Most spirits will find their own way, so over 50% of people will not lose their identity and memories when dying. Those that do lose their memory/identity, end up in the Domain of the Lost until they recover such.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Nightfall assumes that the PC is already ascended since it is a continuation for both Prophesies and Factions. PCs that started in Istan are already has the favor of the gods.
    "Paragons are touched by the gods, chosen by them to serve as emissaries among mortals" and the Dervish can transform to "become the physical embodiment of a god". The Order of the Sunspear are the gods "chosen champions of Elona." I say, they have already Ascended.

    It actually doesn't. While it is a continuation, and heroes from both lands show up, it is also a standalone. Even then, native Elonian heroes and henchmen would never have gone through Ascension or Weh no Su, yet they enter the Mists fine. And leave them fine.

    >

    None of them are Ascended, as it should be pretty clear in both games, Ascension is a rather rare and challenging process.

    We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

    Yes, as a ghost. The Primeval Kings are ghosts too.

    My point was that ghosts returned from the Mists in GW1. Which you said wasn't the case until GW2.

    You misunderstood what I posted. I said humans, meaning body and souls, etc., not ghosts. Coming back as a ghost was a given, thus I said coming back a human, flesh and bones and all.

    Shiro came back because he was never dead? This detail is confusing since he gain a body when he became an Envoy? Not sure.

    However, he physically manifested only after using Master Togo's body (flesh and blood) to restore his.

    Shiro being an Envoy probably per-requisite some kind of Ascension. He said in the final battle, "I am no mere spirit, mortal. Like a god I have breathed life into this body." Which means, he has Ascended since Ascension is basically to become like a god that's why Ascended mortals can go to the Mist.

    Of course Shiro was dead. He died when he was killed by Vizu, Archemorus, and Viktor. His death unleashed the Jade Wind. He wandered the Underworld for 200 years, before becoming an Envoy, which he then used such powers to create the Afflicted plague and eventually resurrect himself.

    The Envoys do not have a body. They're transparent, because they are ghosts.

    Yeah, my memory is fuzzy about this one.

    Well, did they died before becoming an Exalted, or their spirit and consciousness simply transferred to an Exalted leaving their body to die just like how Blish was? If they were transferred, they didn't technically died. Only destroying the Exalted body that they die, which I believe what the question was about.

    Your sentence was basically saying "if the Exalted died, went to the Mists, and came back, it'd be as ghosts". My response: naturally, because they died before going to the Mists and coming back.

    If the Exalted function the same as Forged, which is likely, then they technically died to become Exalted.

    There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

    The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

    The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

    So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Also in GW2, our character was killed, went to the Mist, and came back with our body intact, never need Ascension again. So if we can come back, it is safe to assume that the Exalted can come back if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater.

    The Eater of Souls didn't give the Commander a new body, however, it was merely a postponed resurrection - something that was common place in GW1, but a lost art in the last 250 years.

    Well, I used the word "if they can regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater" instead of "when they regain their identity and defeat the Soul Eater" only because I think what happened to the Commander is a one time deal.

    It wasn't really a one-time deal. That particular eater of souls? Sure. But a multitude of demons would and do eat souls, and many of them if not any of them would be viable to kill to obtain a burst of life energy to self-resurrect. But to do that, one needs a body. And the Exalted's bodies rather decayed 200 years ago.

    Then the Shiro way, maybe?

    Not sure about that. In GW1, there are many lost souls that lost their identity and just wandering around the Underworld (e.g. Lost Soul). However, there are some with lingering emotional attachment to the living world that they still kept some of their identity and memories. I believe that when the human dies, they lose all memory and identity and only if they have emotional attachment that they retain some of them. For example, Sarah, Gwen's mother, has kept her memory and identity even after going through a traumatic experience of the Searing and missing her daughter.

    It's pretty explicitly stated that the Domain of the Lost and the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths. It might not be for all traumatic death (maybe Sarah didn't die traumatized in the Searing, maybe she didn't even see the crystal coming down on her), but it certainly isn't for all deaths.

    Lost Spirit: I'm not sure why I'm here, or even who I am.
    The Judge: That's because most spirits find their own way to their fate when they die.
    The Judge: But those whose deaths are too traumatic often forget who they were or how they perished.
    Nenah: These spirits, like you and me, end up here in the Domain of the Lost.

    Most spirits will find their own way, so over 50% of people will not lose their identity and memories when dying. Those that do lose their memory/identity, end up in the Domain of the Lost until they recover such.

    Yes, that was the intent of the Domain of the Lost, however, "the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths" is not consistent with GW1's lore. There are ghost in the Underworld who died traumatically but didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost. The traumatic death doesn't necessarily leads to memory loss.

    The Domain of the Lost is the place if one died traumatically AND forgotten themselves. Which makes it consistent with GW1 lore since one can die traumatically but if they didn't forget, they don't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like Sarah. There are also those who didn't die a traumatic death, yet they lose their memory and still didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like the Lost Soul. This domain requires dying traumatically and losing memory.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

    Ascension wasn't obtained through favor or blessing from gods. Besides, all professions are said to be related to divinity in GW1, with patronage in magic and whatnot. Especially Monks. Are all monks automatically Ascended? I think not.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

    The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

    The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

    So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

    We don't really even know what "the Blish way" is. You can't really say Blish never technically died. If Blish is just a soul controlling a golem - which is likely the case - then he technically did die as it would be the same as Forged and Shiro'ken except he has self-control. The act of a soul leaving a body is death, for all intents and purposes. That body becomes a lifeless corpse without a soul.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Yes, that was the intent of the Domain of the Lost, however, "the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths" is not consistent with GW1's lore. There are ghost in the Underworld who died traumatically but didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost. The traumatic death doesn't necessarily leads to memory loss.

    Like I said, we never saw Sarah's death. How can you be so certain it was traumatic?

    Dying in a natural disaster isn't always traumatic. Dying in battle isn't always traumatic. It's all about the specifics, and we don't know the specifics for your claims. Her first dialogue without Gwen sounds like she doesn't even realize she's dead, which suggests she died instantaneously - that is not a traumatic death.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Domain of the Lost is the place if one died traumatically AND forgotten themselves. Which makes it consistent with GW1 lore since one can die traumatically but if they didn't forget, they don't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like Sarah. There are also those who didn't die a traumatic death, yet they lose their memory and still didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like the Lost Soul. This domain requires dying traumatically and losing memory.

    There's no evidence of people losing their memory even without dying traumatically. That Lost Soul clearly knows who he is. He's not lost because he can't remember himself, he's lost because he's not at the afterlife he belongs. He's basically literally lost.

    It's Lost Soul, not Forgot-Himself Soul.

    You're making assumptions and presenting them as fact.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

    Ascension wasn't obtained through favor or blessing from gods. Besides, all professions are said to be related to divinity in GW1, with patronage in magic and whatnot. Especially Monks. Are all monks automatically Ascended? I think not.

    The fact that the members of the Order of the Sunspears did not need to go through the Ascended process says otherwise. Monks that are members of the Order did not need to go through the Ascension process either.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

    The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

    The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

    So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

    We don't really even know what "the Blish way" is. You can't really say Blish never technically died. If Blish is just a soul controlling a golem - which is likely the case - then he technically did die as it would be the same as Forged and Shiro'ken except he has self-control. The act of a soul leaving a body is death, for all intents and purposes. That body becomes a lifeless corpse without a soul.

    As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

    Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Yes, that was the intent of the Domain of the Lost, however, "the loss of one's identity is directly tied to traumatic deaths" is not consistent with GW1's lore. There are ghost in the Underworld who died traumatically but didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost. The traumatic death doesn't necessarily leads to memory loss.

    Like I said, we never saw Sarah's death. How can you be so certain it was traumatic?

    Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling.

    Dying in a natural disaster isn't always traumatic. Dying in battle isn't always traumatic. It's all about the specifics, and we don't know the specifics for your claims. Her first dialogue without Gwen sounds like she doesn't even realize she's dead, which suggests she died instantaneously - that is not a traumatic death.

    I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Domain of the Lost is the place if one died traumatically AND forgotten themselves. Which makes it consistent with GW1 lore since one can die traumatically but if they didn't forget, they don't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like Sarah. There are also those who didn't die a traumatic death, yet they lose their memory and still didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost, just like the Lost Soul. This domain requires dying traumatically and losing memory.

    There's no evidence of people losing their memory even without dying traumatically. That Lost Soul clearly knows who he is. He's not lost because he can't remember himself, he's lost because he's not at the afterlife he belongs. He's basically literally lost.

    The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are. They cannot be judged if they don't know who they were. The Judge said, "Once you know your name and your purpose, only then can I determine your final destination." If the Lost Soul failed to do so, they wanders aimlessly in the Underworld.

    In the Realm of Torment, souls lose their memory because their memory are eaten. There is a quest in there to kill a mob to restore their memory.

    In the Underworld in GW1, lost souls are every where because they have forgotten who they were. One specific Lost Soul who gave you quest finds it odd that he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement, not because he's literally lost, it's because he has forgotten who he is. He can't face judgement without knowing who he is. The judge won't be able to determine hi final destination. His death is obviously not traumatic since he didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost.

    It's Lost Soul, not Forgot-Himself Soul.

    He is lost because he has forgotten. Nenah in the Domain of the Lost is helping other Lost Soul to find themselves. She used to be a Lost Soul, shes no longer lost after finding herself.

    You're making assumptions and presenting them as fact.

    You're the one assuming that they are literally lost without considering the facts.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

    Ascension wasn't obtained through favor or blessing from gods. Besides, all professions are said to be related to divinity in GW1, with patronage in magic and whatnot. Especially Monks. Are all monks automatically Ascended? I think not.

    The fact that the members of the Order of the Sunspears did not need to go through the Ascended process says otherwise. Monks that are members of the Order did not need to go through the Ascension process either.

    While that is true, it's not the case that the Nightfall hero didn't have to go through a process. They're under the same restrictions as the other campaigns until the end of the Hunted! quest- that is to say, until they 'ascend' to leadership of the Sunspears. Simply being a Sunspear (or a practicing paragon/dervish/monk) wasn't enough to grant the same benefits.

    At this point, I'd argue that it's simply unclear whether Ascension has anything to do with the gods or not. It was very much presented as being the case in Prophecies, but that presentation required a framework that's been retconned since, and the whole concept's been hanging in a state of limbo as a result. There are multiple valid interpretations until ANet clarifies things, and the precedent is that such clarification will favor whatever explanation makes Ascension most relevantly applicable to the plot point it's being reintroduced for. Until we know what that plot point is- hopefully next episode, but there's no guarantees- it's going to be difficult to extrapolate anything from it.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

    The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

    The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

    So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

    We don't really even know what "the Blish way" is. You can't really say Blish never technically died. If Blish is just a soul controlling a golem - which is likely the case - then he technically did die as it would be the same as Forged and Shiro'ken except he has self-control. The act of a soul leaving a body is death, for all intents and purposes. That body becomes a lifeless corpse without a soul.

    As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

    Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

    I'd say, rather, that the life-death dichotomy breaks down in that case. They both, in this setting, refer to different states of the mind-body relationship. In the same way that undead are considered neither alive nor dead, the state that the Exalted and the Forged are in is functionally a fourth permutation of that relationship.

    As for Blish... we don't know enough to say what state he's in. He might be a soul in a golem body, in which case he'd get be similar to the Exalted, but he also might just be a programmed copy of the original Blish's consciousness, without a soul, in which case he'd be a fifth category including regular golems and over constructs.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

    Ascension wasn't obtained through favor or blessing from gods. Besides, all professions are said to be related to divinity in GW1, with patronage in magic and whatnot. Especially Monks. Are all monks automatically Ascended? I think not.

    The fact that the members of the Order of the Sunspears did not need to go through the Ascended process says otherwise. Monks that are members of the Order did not need to go through the Ascension process either.

    From a mechanical viewpoint, as Aaron states, Nightfall PCs cannot enter the Mists until completing the Hunted! quest. However, from a lore standpoint, we're not talking about just Order of the Sunspear figures entering the Realm of Torment and being fine...

    Zenmai. Olias. Morgahn. Master of Whispers. Norgu. Goren. Margrid the Sly. Zhed. Tahlkora (technically). Sousuke. Jin.

    They all enter the Realm of Torment - enter the Mists - and return, all without issues. And that's not even getting into the NPCs like the Order of Whispers and the 'greatest hunter' who ever lived, Zehtuka.

    So even if you argue that flimsy argument of "just simply becoming a member of the Order of the Sunspears automatically makes you Ascended somehow" (which makes no sense given the lore of Ascension), this still does not explain all the NPCs that enter the Realm of Torment.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

    Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

    Does the body have a pulse? No? Then it's medically deceased.

    I mean, in the argument that a talking vase possessed by a spirit is not dead (and your definition does, indeed, fit this - the vase is functioning as a body, and they can interact with others), then what is death anyways? Being a spirit and walking about might as well be "not dead".

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling.

    Renault: "I feel so... transparent."
    Anson: "I know what you mean. Just once I'd like someone to see the real me."
    Renault: "I see you, Anson."
    Anson: "Thanks."
    Renault: "Anson, do you remember getting here?"
    Anson: "Not really. I just recall blinding flashes of light and fire falling from the sky. I think the world ended, but I'm not sure."

    The souls right next to Sarah, who died in the Searing, literally state they don't know how they die.

    Looking for Gwen wasn't necessarily "the last thing she was doing", after all, talking about being transparent is pretty unlikely to be the last thing Renault was doing before dying. Sarah's likely looking for Gwen because she expected that Gwen died too given that when the two meet, Sarah says this:

    Sarah: "Gwen! Oh...my! Look how you've grown! How many years have passed me by in this place...? I feared I would never seen you again; that you were lost to me forever.

    Sarah doesn't easily recognize the passage of time, but she recognizes that she's dead, but was trying to find her daughter in the afterlife.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met.

    It's ironic, you see all the evidence before you, but you come to the opposite conclusion because you're so deadset on your definition.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are.

    Some of them, yes. But all of them? Is it ever stated that every Lost Spirit has lost their memory? This one seems pretty kitten self-knowing if you ask me.

    In the Realm of Torment, souls lose their memory because their memory are eaten. There is a quest in there to kill a mob to restore their memory.

    That's a Wandering Soul not Lost Soul... The others are there by name.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    In the Underworld in GW1, lost souls are every where because they have forgotten who they were. One specific Lost Soul who gave you quest finds it odd that he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement, not because he's literally lost, it's because he has forgotten who he is. He can't face judgement without knowing who he is. The judge won't be able to determine hi final destination. His death is obviously not traumatic since he didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost.

    And yet, he knows he dies. He knows who he is. He's just confused why he's not at the Hall of Judgment that he always heard was where souls go to be judged (it's actually Dhuum's prison, so not likely where souls are judged in all honesty).

    "It's odd. I thought after you died, you were sent to the Hall of Judgment so that Grenth could choose your eternal fate. At first, I was relieved to find myself here instead, but...I don't want to be stuck here for eternity either."
    "I'd like to explore around a bit, but the other side of this chamber is full of those terrible grasping darkness creatures, servants of the Terrorweb demons if I remember my lore right. One of us tried to go past them, and they struck him down and swallowed his soul! Please help us. Clear this chamber of these phantoms and their Terrorweb masters!"

    "Maybe if you destroy all these grasping darkness phantoms and Terrorweb, Grenth will summon us or send someone to talk to us or something. Anything's got to be better than being stuck here."

    Like I said: he seems to be pretty kitten sure of himself and his memory.

    Unlike the Commander or those Orrian souls who lost their memory, who literally didn't know how the afterlife worked, where they were, what they were, why they were.

    There's a very stark contrast between this "Lost Soul" and the memory-forgotten souls.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

    Ascension wasn't obtained through favor or blessing from gods. Besides, all professions are said to be related to divinity in GW1, with patronage in magic and whatnot. Especially Monks. Are all monks automatically Ascended? I think not.

    The fact that the members of the Order of the Sunspears did not need to go through the Ascended process says otherwise. Monks that are members of the Order did not need to go through the Ascension process either.

    From a mechanical viewpoint, as Aaron states, Nightfall PCs cannot enter the Mists until completing the Hunted! quest. However, from a lore standpoint, we're not talking about just Order of the Sunspear figures entering the Realm of Torment and being fine...

    Zenmai. Olias. Morgahn. Master of Whispers. Norgu. Goren. Margrid the Sly. Zhed. Tahlkora (technically). Sousuke. Jin.

    They all enter the Realm of Torment - enter the Mists - and return, all without issues. And that's not even getting into the NPCs like the Order of Whispers and the 'greatest hunter' who ever lived, Zehtuka.

    So even if you argue that flimsy argument of "just simply becoming a member of the Order of the Sunspears automatically makes you Ascended somehow" (which makes no sense given the lore of Ascension), this still does not explain all the NPCs that enter the Realm of Torment.

    So then please explain how the PC, without Ascending, is allowed to enter the Mist? So far, you're only complaining without offering an alternative explanation.

    Non-Elonian PC can only commune with the gods while praying on a shrine, Dervish does it on the whim where ever, whenever. Their connection to the gods is obviously far greater than that of a Tyrian or a Canthan Ascended. Paragon's Arias and Chants are different forms of prayers to the gods. The facts are there, you're just choosing to ignore them.

    Zehtuka is irrelevant in this discussion since he does things that no normal humans should be able to do and go where human should not been able to go. He is a mystery on its own. You're assuming that he's not Ascended, well he does things that only Ascended individuals could.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

    Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

    Does the body have a pulse? No? Then it's medically deceased.

    I'm sure the Sylvaris disagree with your interpretation.

    I mean, in the argument that a talking vase possessed by a spirit is not dead (and your definition does, indeed, fit this - the vase is functioning as a body, and they can interact with others), then what is death anyways? Being a spirit and walking about might as well be "not dead".

    You tell me. You're the one having trouble distinguishing who is dead and who is alive in GW. According to you, Blish, without a pulse, is dead.

    I've already explained, death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist. If they didn't end up in the Mist, they are not dead. This is why we get to kill the Ascalonian Ghosts over and over again, yet they don't die and still comes back. Their souls have transferred to the land of Ascalon, no different than them attaching to a vase. Without their soul being transferred into another medium, their soul will end up in the Mist then they are officially dead.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling.

    Looking for Gwen wasn't necessarily "the last thing she was doing", after all, talking about being transparent is pretty unlikely to be the last thing Renault was doing before dying. Sarah's likely looking for Gwen because she expected that Gwen died too given that when the two meet, Sarah says this:

    Sarah: "Gwen! Oh...my! Look how you've grown! How many years have passed me by in this place...? I feared I would never seen you again; that you were lost to me forever.

    Sarah doesn't easily recognize the passage of time, but she recognizes that she's dead, but was trying to find her daughter in the afterlife.

    You said Sarah might have died instantly and that she doesn't even know that she's dead. You are now contradicting your previous statement here.

    It is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen.

    Your take makes zero sense.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met.

    It's ironic, you see all the evidence before you, but you come to the opposite conclusion because you're so deadset on your definition.

    Again, "it is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen."

    What exactly is the opposite of that conclusion?

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are.

    Some of them, yes. But all of them? Is it ever stated that every Lost Spirit has lost their memory? This one seems pretty kitten self-knowing if you ask me.

    That's the same Lost Soul who wonders why he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement. As I have already explained, the soul cannot be judge if they have forgotten themselves. The fact that he is there and not in the Hall proves that he has forgotten himself.

    Unless of course you're trying to argue that someone mishandled his application and lost his paper works, then I digress.

    In the Realm of Torment, souls lose their memory because their memory are eaten. There is a quest in there to kill a mob to restore their memory.

    That's a Wandering Soul not Lost Soul... The others are there by name.

    He is not lost because he has retained his memory.

    You're argument was, "There's no evidence of people losing their memory even without dying traumatically." That's the proof that some lose their memory because they were taken.

    You also just agreed to this statement i said, "The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are" and then you said, "Some of them, yes." Which is another proof that even you acknowledge that "people losing their memory even without dying traumatically"

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    In the Underworld in GW1, lost souls are every where because they have forgotten who they were. One specific Lost Soul who gave you quest finds it odd that he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement, not because he's literally lost, it's because he has forgotten who he is. He can't face judgement without knowing who he is. The judge won't be able to determine hi final destination. His death is obviously not traumatic since he didn't end up in the Domain of the Lost.

    And yet, he knows he dies. He knows who he is. He's just confused why he's not at the Hall of Judgment that he always heard was where souls go to be judged (it's actually Dhuum's prison, so not likely where souls are judged in all honesty).

    Like I said: he seems to be pretty kitten sure of himself and his memory.

    Unlike the Commander or those Orrian souls who lost their memory, who literally didn't know how the afterlife worked, where they were, what they were, why they were.

    There's a very stark contrast between this "Lost Soul" and the memory-forgotten souls.

    Doubtful. He remembers what the process is supposed to be, or he learned it from others while waiting there in the Underworld, but he has forgotten who he is. The simple fact that he is not in the Halls of Judgement is proof that he has forgotten himself.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    We'll just have to disagree on this since even in the absence of an actual Ascension process, no other profession or Order received the kind of blessing/favor that the Order of Sunspears has received. No other profession are touched by the gods like the Paragon, nor uses prayers to become the physical embodiment of one of the gods like the Dervish. Compare to the other professions, both Paragon and Dervish are on the Ascended class. But, I agree to disagree.

    Ascension wasn't obtained through favor or blessing from gods. Besides, all professions are said to be related to divinity in GW1, with patronage in magic and whatnot. Especially Monks. Are all monks automatically Ascended? I think not.

    The fact that the members of the Order of the Sunspears did not need to go through the Ascended process says otherwise. Monks that are members of the Order did not need to go through the Ascension process either.

    While that is true, it's not the case that the Nightfall hero didn't have to go through a process. They're under the same restrictions as the other campaigns until the end of the Hunted! quest- that is to say, until they 'ascend' to leadership of the Sunspears. Simply being a Sunspear (or a practicing paragon/dervish/monk) wasn't enough to grant the same benefits.

    At this point, I'd argue that it's simply unclear whether Ascension has anything to do with the gods or not. It was very much presented as being the case in Prophecies, but that presentation required a framework that's been retconned since, and the whole concept's been hanging in a state of limbo as a result. There are multiple valid interpretations until ANet clarifies things, and the precedent is that such clarification will favor whatever explanation makes Ascension most relevantly applicable to the plot point it's being reintroduced for. Until we know what that plot point is- hopefully next episode, but there's no guarantees- it's going to be difficult to extrapolate anything from it.

    Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    There's basically two possible processes; the Blish way, or the Forged way.

    The Forged way is harvesting any souls, which in most cases harvested from the Underworld, and putting them into a construct, which I doubt this is what happened in case of the Exalted.

    The Blish way is more plausible since the Exalted were former humans who dedicated themselves to the cause of taking care of the scions of Glint. As their mortal body was failing, dying, they choose to put their spirit and consciousness into a longer lasting body before they die, so they can serve longer, thus the Exalted.

    So if they did the Blish way, they didn't technically died, they just transferred from one body to another.

    We don't really even know what "the Blish way" is. You can't really say Blish never technically died. If Blish is just a soul controlling a golem - which is likely the case - then he technically did die as it would be the same as Forged and Shiro'ken except he has self-control. The act of a soul leaving a body is death, for all intents and purposes. That body becomes a lifeless corpse without a soul.

    As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

    Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

    I'd say, rather, that the life-death dichotomy breaks down in that case. They both, in this setting, refer to different states of the mind-body relationship. In the same way that undead are considered neither alive nor dead, the state that the Exalted and the Forged are in is functionally a fourth permutation of that relationship.

    As for Blish... we don't know enough to say what state he's in. He might be a soul in a golem body, in which case he'd get be similar to the Exalted, but he also might just be a programmed copy of the original Blish's consciousness, without a soul, in which case he'd be a fifth category including regular golems and over constructs.

    Lore said that he transferred his consciousness into the golem which debunks the copy theory that he's Just. A. Rather. Very. Intelligent. System. without a soul.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

    I'm not sure the Ascended status of the Nightfall hero was canon so much as it was they just didn't really want to shoehorn a third variant into the plot. I.e., it might have been more about mechanics and balance than lore.

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    So then please explain how the PC, without Ascending, is allowed to enter the Mist? So far, you're only complaining without offering an alternative explanation.

    Because Ascension is not required to enter the Mists. As I've said from the beginning.

    Are you even reading my posts? I'm pretty sure you're not. So this will be my last.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    You tell me. You're the one having trouble distinguishing who is dead and who is alive in GW. According to you, Blish, without a pulse, is dead.

    If he's a soul inhabiting a golem then, yes, he's clinically dead.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    I've already explained, death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist. If they didn't end up in the Mist, they are not dead. This is why we get to kill the Ascalonian Ghosts over and over again, yet they don't die and still comes back. Their souls have transferred to the land of Ascalon, no different than them attaching to a vase. Without their soul being transferred into another medium, their soul will end up in the Mist then they are officially dead.

    So Crusader Aliyana, who states she experienced death, is, in fact, alive?

    You realize how flawed your argument is yet?

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    In the Realm of Torment, souls lose their memory because their memory are eaten. There is a quest in there to kill a mob to restore their memory.

    That's a Wandering Soul not Lost Soul... The others are there by name.

    He is not lost because he has retained his memory.

    That's... the spirit who lost his memory. If you bothered to click the link, you'd see that.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    You also just agreed to this statement i said, "The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are" and then you said, "Some of them, yes." Which is another proof that even you acknowledge that "people losing their memory even without dying traumatically"

    Sure, some lost spirits are lost because they don't remember themselves.

    But not all lost spirits have forgotten themselves, such as the lost spirit at the beginning of The Underworld in GW1.

    I did not agree with your statement, I disagreed because you're statement is over-encompassing.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Doubtful. He remembers what the process is supposed to be, or he learned it from others while waiting there in the Underworld, but he has forgotten who he is. The simple fact that he is not in the Halls of Judgement is proof that he has forgotten himself.

    And the Commander and other Lost Souls in the Domain of the Lost remembers nothing, not even "what the process is supposed to be".

    That's the key difference.

    And literally nothing in his dialogue suggests he forgot who he was.

    The simple fact that the Hall of Judgment is never shown to be used for judging, and we see judging occur elsewhere, is completely counter to your "simple fact".

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Lore said that he transferred his consciousness into the golem which debunks the copy theory that he's Just. A. Rather. Very. Intelligent. System. without a soul.

    Nowhere has this been stated. If it has, please, provide a source.

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

    I'm not sure the Ascended status of the Nightfall hero was canon so much as it was they just didn't really want to shoehorn a third variant into the plot. I.e., it might have been more about mechanics and balance than lore.

    It's not canon. ArenaNet writers outright stated they didn't want to do yet another "Ascension plot" so they just stuck onto the main plot quest that made the most sense for them that was midway through.

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Non-Elonian PC can only commune with the gods while praying on a shrine, Dervish does it on the whim where ever, whenever. Their connection to the gods is obviously far greater than that of a Tyrian or a Canthan Ascended. Paragon's Arias and Chants are different forms of prayers to the gods. The facts are there, you're just choosing to ignore them.

    Well Other Classes did that too. the dervish may be the most obvious thanks to the Avatars but that doesnt makes him the only class. and paragon well thats something to argue about completly .. some guy who is singing about flames or restorrytion or whatever does not give him speacial Connection to the gods. Monks for example had skills direktly connected to dwayna "dwaynas kiss" just cuz it's hard to believe.. or "Grenths Balance" for necromancers

    Zehtuka is irrelevant in this discussion since he does things that no normal humans should be able to do and go where human should not been able to go. He is a mystery on its own. You're assuming that he's not Ascended, well he does things that only Ascended individuals could.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

    Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

    Does the body have a pulse? No? Then it's medically deceased.

    I'm sure the Sylvaris disagree with your interpretation.

    thats like saying that plants are not alive. if u Need Body fuilds u still got the explanations from arenanet that sylvarie got some Kind of sap thats functioning like blood. ist not clearyfied if they got a pulse while i doubt it.
    ofcourse assuming something is not alive just cuz it lacks pulse is not really the best Argument here
    but the same goes with the Statement that everything is alive as Long as the sould did not enter the mists.

    I mean, in the argument that a talking vase possessed by a spirit is not dead (and your definition does, indeed, fit this - the vase is functioning as a body, and they can interact with others), then what is death anyways? Being a spirit and walking about might as well be "not dead".

    You tell me. You're the one having trouble distinguishing who is dead and who is alive in GW. According to you, Blish, without a pulse, is dead.

    his Body definetly is. we Need to destinguish between living Body and living Soul here otherwise there is nothing to accomplish in this argument

    I've already explained, death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist. If they didn't end up in the Mist, they are not dead. This is why we get to kill the Ascalonian Ghosts over and over again, yet they don't die and still comes back. Their souls have transferred to the land of Ascalon, no different than them attaching to a vase. Without their soul being transferred into another medium, their soul will end up in the Mist then they are officially dead.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling.

    Looking for Gwen wasn't necessarily "the last thing she was doing", after all, talking about being transparent is pretty unlikely to be the last thing Renault was doing before dying. Sarah's likely looking for Gwen because she expected that Gwen died too given that when the two meet, Sarah says this:

    Sarah: "Gwen! Oh...my! Look how you've grown! How many years have passed me by in this place...? I feared I would never seen you again; that you were lost to me forever.

    Sarah doesn't easily recognize the passage of time, but she recognizes that she's dead, but was trying to find her daughter in the afterlife.

    You said Sarah might have died instantly and that she doesn't even know that she's dead. You are now contradicting your previous statement here.

    It is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen.

    Your take makes zero sense.

    not so sure that she is searching for Gwen for that reason. there are multiple attempts for Interpretation possible ur and konigs both make sense propably there are more and at that Point ist up to the individual to Chose the one he likes best cuz we dont have clarification from arenanet

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met.

    It's ironic, you see all the evidence before you, but you come to the opposite conclusion because you're so deadset on your definition.

    Again, "it is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen."

    What exactly is the opposite of that conclusion?

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are.

    Some of them, yes. But all of them? Is it ever stated that every Lost Spirit has lost their memory? This one seems pretty kitten self-knowing if you ask me.

    That's the same Lost Soul who wonders why he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement. As I have already explained, the soul cannot be judge if they have forgotten themselves. The fact that he is there and not in the Hall proves that he has forgotten himself.

    Unless of course you're trying to argue that someone mishandled his application and lost his paper works, then I digress.

    i agree with konig here. just because the humands believe that they are judged in the hall of judgement doesnt make it true. the hall is dhuums prison so i doubt they will be judged there. additionaly the underworld from gw1 wasnt in a state were everything went smoothly cuz we had to free grenths reapers

    ill cut of here cuz i dont have time anymore maybe ill add the rest later :)

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Non-Elonian PC can only commune with the gods while praying on a shrine, Dervish does it on the whim where ever, whenever. Their connection to the gods is obviously far greater than that of a Tyrian or a Canthan Ascended. Paragon's Arias and Chants are different forms of prayers to the gods. The facts are there, you're just choosing to ignore them.

    Well Other Classes did that too. the dervish may be the most obvious thanks to the Avatars but that doesnt makes him the only class. and paragon well thats something to argue about completly .. some guy who is singing about flames or restorrytion or whatever does not give him speacial Connection to the gods. Monks for example had skills direktly connected to dwayna "dwaynas kiss" just cuz it's hard to believe.. or "Grenths Balance" for necromancers

    The difference is that, the Monks in Elona doesn't need Ascension while the Monks in Tyria does. Whether that is a game design decision or not doesn't change the fact that Elonians doesn't need to go through the Ascension trial.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist.

    Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead.

    Does the body have a pulse? No? Then it's medically deceased.

    I'm sure the Sylvaris disagree with your interpretation.

    thats like saying that plants are not alive. if u Need Body fuilds u still got the explanations from arenanet that sylvarie got some Kind of sap thats functioning like blood. ist not clearyfied if they got a pulse while i doubt it.
    ofcourse assuming something is not alive just cuz it lacks pulse is not really the best Argument here
    but the same goes with the Statement that everything is alive as Long as the sould did not enter the mists.

    I'm not the one saying that Sylvari's aren't alive. My position is that, the Sylvari is the proof that you don't need pulse to be alive. Pulse requires a blood pumping mechanism which the Sylvari do not have. Yes they have golden saps as blood, but like a tree, no pulse.

    I mean, in the argument that a talking vase possessed by a spirit is not dead (and your definition does, indeed, fit this - the vase is functioning as a body, and they can interact with others), then what is death anyways? Being a spirit and walking about might as well be "not dead".

    You tell me. You're the one having trouble distinguishing who is dead and who is alive in GW. According to you, Blish, without a pulse, is dead.

    his Body definetly is. we Need to destinguish between living Body and living Soul here otherwise there is nothing to accomplish in this argument

    The disagreement is in the definition of "alive" and "dead" in the world of GW2. If Blish died, he would have ended up in the Mist, not inside a golem.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling.

    Looking for Gwen wasn't necessarily "the last thing she was doing", after all, talking about being transparent is pretty unlikely to be the last thing Renault was doing before dying. Sarah's likely looking for Gwen because she expected that Gwen died too given that when the two meet, Sarah says this:

    Sarah: "Gwen! Oh...my! Look how you've grown! How many years have passed me by in this place...? I feared I would never seen you again; that you were lost to me forever.

    Sarah doesn't easily recognize the passage of time, but she recognizes that she's dead, but was trying to find her daughter in the afterlife.

    You said Sarah might have died instantly and that she doesn't even know that she's dead. You are now contradicting your previous statement here.

    It is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen.

    Your take makes zero sense.

    not so sure that she is searching for Gwen for that reason. there are multiple attempts for Interpretation possible ur and konigs both make sense propably there are more and at that Point ist up to the individual to Chose the one he likes best cuz we dont have clarification from arenanet

    Well the reason why Sarah was dragged into this is because Konig believes that if human died traumatically that they will lose their memory, thus ending up in the Domain of the Lost. Sarah's death is traumatic because the Searing and since she believes that her daughter also suffered the same fate as her, yet she retains her memory. So dying traumatically doesn't necessarily means that you'll lose your memory. Even The Judge said, "those whose deaths are too traumatic often forget who they were" -- he said often, not always.

    So if someone died a traumatic death AND they forgot who they were, they end up in the Domain of the Lost. Sarah didn't forget despite the trauma that she suffered. The only argument against this is to deny believe that the Searing is not a traumatic experience. (EDIT for clarity)

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met.

    It's ironic, you see all the evidence before you, but you come to the opposite conclusion because you're so deadset on your definition.

    Again, "it is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen."

    What exactly is the opposite of that conclusion?

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are.

    Some of them, yes. But all of them? Is it ever stated that every Lost Spirit has lost their memory? This one seems pretty kitten self-knowing if you ask me.

    That's the same Lost Soul who wonders why he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement. As I have already explained, the soul cannot be judge if they have forgotten themselves. The fact that he is there and not in the Hall proves that he has forgotten himself.

    Unless of course you're trying to argue that someone mishandled his application and lost his paper works, then I digress.

    i agree with konig here. just because the humands believe that they are judged in the hall of judgement doesnt make it true. the hall is dhuums prison so i doubt they will be judged there. additionaly the underworld from gw1 wasnt in a state were everything went smoothly cuz we had to free grenths reapers

    The human belief that the dead is judged in the hall of judgement has to come from somewhere, right? And who else will relay that information to the priests if not the gods themselves. It was appropriately name until Grenth decided to make it Dhuum's prison. In this case, that belief is mostly true, albeit maybe outdated.

    However, you made me realize something. Due to the fact you pointed out that everything were not going smoothly and the fact that Grenth repurposed the Hall to a prison, that may be a valid reason why the ghosts didn't end up in the Halls. However, just like the modern court houses, there are holding cells in the same building. So it is still possible to imprison Dhuum in the same place where judgement is conducted, just like a holding cell outside the court room.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

    That would be... quite bizarre, given the largest concentration of ghosts in the desert were Elonians led there to die by a king whose years of research had led him to believe that the Crystal Desert was the only way to Ascend.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

    That would be... quite bizarre, given the largest concentration of ghosts in the desert were Elonians led there to die by a king whose years of research had led him to believe that the Crystal Desert was the only way to Ascend.

    They didn't went to Crystal Desert believing that it's the only place. Turai thought he was fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophesy which lead them to the Crystal Desert where the prophesy is to be fulfilled. As the Canthan have proven, you can Ascend anywhere as long as you gain the favor of the gods or in their case the celestials.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

    That would be... quite bizarre, given the largest concentration of ghosts in the desert were Elonians led there to die by a king whose years of research had led him to believe that the Crystal Desert was the only way to Ascend.

    They didn't went to Crystal Desert believing that it's the only place. Turai thought he was fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophesy which lead them to the Crystal Desert where the prophesy is to be fulfilled. As the Canthan have proven, you can Ascend anywhere as long as you gain the favor of the gods or in their case the celestials.

    Technically speaking, Ascension is never mentioned in the Flameseeker Prophecies, nor is the Crystal Desert ever named. The relevant lines are:

    Scroll 2, Verse 15
    At the point of delivery, desperation brings alliances
    The bird of prey steps into the forefront
    Spreading wings of friendship, but to ensnare
    His council is taken as wisdom and kindness

    Scroll 3, Verse 1
    A man once revered but without soul and mercy
    Will stretch his talons across all Tyria
    Those who seek audience with the gods
    Must succeed, or all will be changed

    Scroll 3, Verse 2
    A forgotten race, molded with four arms
    And the visage of a snake
    Ally themselves with the soothsayer
    When they leave the world of men, gods will weep

    Scroll 3, Verse 3
    At the steps of the tombs, danger rises
    Horrors guard the entrance with vengeance
    But as day leads and night falls unfalteringly
    So are the worthy led by their hero

    Scroll 3, Verse 4
    Deep within the Mists, blood will be spilled
    The Hall will seem unjust to those who are conquered
    Poison, illusion, and fire will meet plague and steel
    Glory will not be easily claimed
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flameseeker_Verse

    Scroll 2, Verse 15 refers to Sanctum Cay's events, Scroll 3 Verse 1 refers to the Crystal Desert stuff, Verse 2 to The Dragon's Layer, and Verse 3 and 4 seem to be focused on the Tombs PvP.

    No mention of where Ascension will occur. It merely states that "those who seek audience with the gods" (Ascension) "must succeed or all will be changed".

    Does not mention where, how, or when Ascension will be obtained. Just that there will be people seeking Ascension and that they must succeed.

    Furthermore, GW2 proves you wrong even more than GW1 did; Elonians are going to the Crystal Desert to attempt Ascension.

    Your entire argument is built on the (false) assumption that Ascendancy is required to enter the Mists according to GW1. When pointed out the facts, you deny them as an isolated effect. Seeing your argument here is like watching an anti-vaxxer's argument. You find no evidence to support your claim, yet despite evidence debunking your claim you stick with it and shout "that doesn't count!"

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert.

    That would be... quite bizarre, given the largest concentration of ghosts in the desert were Elonians led there to die by a king whose years of research had led him to believe that the Crystal Desert was the only way to Ascend.

    They didn't went to Crystal Desert believing that it's the only place. Turai thought he was fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophesy which lead them to the Crystal Desert where the prophesy is to be fulfilled. As the Canthan have proven, you can Ascend anywhere as long as you gain the favor of the gods or in their case the celestials.

    Technically speaking, Ascension is never mentioned in the Flameseeker Prophecies, nor is the Crystal Desert ever named. The relevant lines are:

    Scroll 2, Verse 15
    At the point of delivery, desperation brings alliances
    The bird of prey steps into the forefront
    Spreading wings of friendship, but to ensnare
    His council is taken as wisdom and kindness

    Scroll 3, Verse 1
    A man once revered but without soul and mercy
    Will stretch his talons across all Tyria
    Those who seek audience with the gods
    Must succeed, or all will be changed

    Scroll 3, Verse 2
    A forgotten race, molded with four arms
    And the visage of a snake
    Ally themselves with the soothsayer
    When they leave the world of men, gods will weep

    Scroll 3, Verse 3
    At the steps of the tombs, danger rises
    Horrors guard the entrance with vengeance
    But as day leads and night falls unfalteringly
    So are the worthy led by their hero

    Scroll 3, Verse 4
    Deep within the Mists, blood will be spilled
    The Hall will seem unjust to those who are conquered
    Poison, illusion, and fire will meet plague and steel
    Glory will not be easily claimed
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flameseeker_Verse

    Scroll 2, Verse 15 refers to Sanctum Cay's events, Scroll 3 Verse 1 refers to the Crystal Desert stuff, Verse 2 to The Dragon's Layer, and Verse 3 and 4 seem to be focused on the Tombs PvP.

    No mention of where Ascension will occur. It merely states that "those who seek audience with the gods" (Ascension) "must succeed or all will be changed".

    Does not mention where, how, or when Ascension will be obtained. Just that there will be people seeking Ascension and that they must succeed.

    Furthermore, GW2 proves you wrong even more than GW1 did; Elonians are going to the Crystal Desert to attempt Ascension.

    Your entire argument is built on the (false) assumption that Ascendancy is required to enter the Mists according to GW1. When pointed out the facts, you deny them as an isolated effect. Seeing your argument here is like watching an anti-vaxxer's argument. You find no evidence to support your claim, yet despite evidence debunking your claim you stick with it and shout "that doesn't count!"

    "For many centuries have I lingered here in this desert, waiting for the Prophecy to come to pass."
    "My name was Turai Ossa. I was the Champion of Elona, the protector and leader of my people."
    "I perished, along with the rest of my people, trying to build a temple to the old gods. We foolishly thought that we were the ones in the Flameseeker Prophecies"
    "But if you wish to know more, then you should ask the one who had the premonitions, the Prophet."
    "Her name is Glint, and she is quite old, even for a dragon."
    "Only those who Ascend will find the portal that takes them to her."
    "You will have to prove to the gods that you are worthy of Ascension. There are three test you must pass before you will be let into the mesa at Augury Rock."

    This talkative Ghostly Hero just answered the Where and How in accordance to the prophesy, the When question is irrelevant since this ghost have waited for centuries. Your answers are there, you're just looking at the wrong places just so you can pounce and call my entire argument based on "false" assumption.

    One fact that you pointed out is that, "No mention of where Ascension will occur" -- that is because it can happen anywhere, just like in Cantha. The Crystal Desert is just a convenient location since that's where Glint is and it's closer to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings.

    The Elonians in GW2 seeking Ascension are doing it in vain. Great Ritual Priest Zahmut even said, "Hello. If you are here for Ascension, it hasn't worked for many years." So you might need to double check your source before saying that it proves me wrong.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    This talkative Ghostly Hero just answered the Where and How in accordance to the prophesy, the When question is irrelevant since this ghost have waited for centuries. Your answers are there, you're just looking at the wrong places just so you can pounce and call my entire argument based on "false" assumption.

    Yes, someone talking about a prophecy clearly states where the prophecy demands Ascension to take place, while the prophecy itself does not.

    Turai talks about waiting in the Crystal Desert because the only place Elonians can seek Ascension, ever, was at the Crystal Desert. The Prophecies doesn't state where, because there is only one where, that's why Turai knew to go to the desert.

    And the same goes for the GW1 PC; if Ascension could be done anywhere, why go to the Crystal Desert, an inhospitable location, since the prophecy does not call for them to go to the Crystal Desert, just to Ascend?

    The answer is simple: you cannot Ascend elsewhere.

    One fact that you pointed out is that, "No mention of where Ascension will occur" -- that is because it can happen anywhere, just like in Cantha. The Crystal Desert is just a convenient location since that's where Glint is and it's closer to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings.

    If that were the case, then there'd be no need for Turai to go to the Crystal Desert to Ascend. Because like I said, trying to fulfill the prophecy calls for Ascension, not Ascension in the Crystal Desert.

    Ascension can only happen through two means known to the people living in Central Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. One is through Augury Rock, or through the Celestials. One is mobile, the other isn't.

    Besides, technically speaking, Weh no Su might actually be different from Ascension, even if it results in similar effects on the body and soul.

    The Elonians in GW2 seeking Ascension are doing it in vain. Great Ritual Priest Zahmut even said, "Hello. If you are here for Ascension, it hasn't worked for many years." So you might need to double check your source before saying that it proves me wrong.

    And if Ascension could be done anywhere, they needn't focus on trying to Ascend in Augury Rock. It's simple logic.

    And all of this STILL ignores the fact that multiple non-Ascended, non-monk, non-Paragon, non-Dervish, non-Sunspears openly enter the Realm of Torment and return without issue.

    Norgu, Goren, Zenmai, Olias, Jurah (aka Master of Whispers), Zhed, Margrid the Sly, and countless Order of Whispers members.

    You keep spouting about how Paragons, Elonian Monks, Dervishes, and Sunspears are somehow magically automatically Ascended, without ever bothing to explain how that might be, just because they're apparently blessed by the gods (which is not Ascension btw), yet tactfully ignore the existence of these individuals. Even when they're brought to your attention. Twice.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    This talkative Ghostly Hero just answered the Where and How in accordance to the prophesy, the When question is irrelevant since this ghost have waited for centuries. Your answers are there, you're just looking at the wrong places just so you can pounce and call my entire argument based on "false" assumption.

    Yes, someone talking about a prophecy clearly states where the prophecy demands Ascension to take place, while the prophecy itself does not.

    Turai talks about waiting in the Crystal Desert because the only place Elonians can seek Ascension, ever, was at the Crystal Desert. The Prophecies doesn't state where, because there is only one where, that's why Turai knew to go to the desert.

    And the same goes for the GW1 PC; if Ascension could be done anywhere, why go to the Crystal Desert, an inhospitable location, since the prophecy does not call for them to go to the Crystal Desert, just to Ascend?

    The answer is simple: you cannot Ascend elsewhere.

    The Ascension is not tied with the Prophesy, the Canthan Ascension is proof of that. The Prophesy lead to the Crystal Desert because of two things; 1) Tombs of the Primeval Kings and 2) Glint's Lair.

    Why would the Prophesy lead Elonians or Tyrians somewhere else if they need to meet Glint and enter the Tombs afterwards? The most logical location for the Ascension is where Glint is and conveniently where the Tombs is located.

    Cathans do not need to meet Glint, thus they can perform the Ascension in Cantha. Since the Elonians no longer need to fulfill the Prophesies, there is no longer any reason to pilgrimage to Crystal Desert. This is why in GW2, those who seek Ascension do not find it because you can no longer Ascend there. If that is the ONLY place for Ascension, then why did it stop working many years before Kormir's departure?

    Ascending in the Crystal Desert no longer necessary after the Prophesy was fulfilled. Thus it is logical that Elonians, just like Canthans, have found another way to Ascend without the need to go to the Crystal Desert.

    One fact that you pointed out is that, "No mention of where Ascension will occur" -- that is because it can happen anywhere, just like in Cantha. The Crystal Desert is just a convenient location since that's where Glint is and it's closer to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings.

    If that were the case, then there'd be no need for Turai to go to the Crystal Desert to Ascend. Because like I said, trying to fulfill the prophecy calls for Ascension, not Ascension in the Crystal Desert.

    Ascension in the Crystal Desert is just a matter of convenience for Glint and access to the Tombs. All the other myths about the Desert being the place where the gods once walked, etc. are just that, myths because Cathans have proven they can Ascend else where. If the myth is not a myth, then why didn't they choose Arah instead? Or at least a location where Orr used to be. If they want to be closer to the gods, that would be the place.

    Ascension can only happen through two means known to the people living in Central Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. One is through Augury Rock, or through the Celestials. One is mobile, the other isn't.

    Besides, technically speaking, Weh no Su might actually be different from Ascension, even if it results in similar effects on the body and soul.

    That train of thought just open up the possibility that Elonians might have establish a different way to Ascend, their own Weh noSu, without actually going through the Ascension process or trials. The fact that they don't need to physically go through the Ascension process is proof that they have found a way to Ascend.

    The Elonians in GW2 seeking Ascension are doing it in vain. Great Ritual Priest Zahmut even said, "Hello. If you are here for Ascension, it hasn't worked for many years." So you might need to double check your source before saying that it proves me wrong.

    And if Ascension could be done anywhere, they needn't focus on trying to Ascend in Augury Rock. It's simple logic.

    Again, the Crystal Desert location is not because it is where to Ascend, it is because it is where the Prophesy lead them. It is a convenient location for the one who compiled the Prophesies, Glint other than the fact that the Tombs is literally just next door.

    And all of this STILL ignores the fact that multiple non-Ascended, non-monk, non-Paragon, non-Dervish, non-Sunspears openly enter the Realm of Torment and return without issue.

    Norgu, Goren, Zenmai, Olias, Jurah (aka Master of Whispers), Zhed, Margrid the Sly, and countless Order of Whispers members.

    You keep spouting about how Paragons, Elonian Monks, Dervishes, and Sunspears are somehow magically automatically Ascended, without ever bothing to explain how that might be, just because they're apparently blessed by the gods (which is not Ascension btw), yet tactfully ignore the existence of these individuals. Even when they're brought to your attention. Twice.

    The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial.

    If you take a Tyrian or Canthan character to Elona before doing their Ascension and finished the quest Hunted!, these characters would not be Ascended since they are foreign characters. The Ascension in Elona is reserved for Elonians which is another proof that Elonians have found a different way to Ascend (caveat: This is based on the Nightfall game when it was current).

    If Ascension isn't required, then why even bother with the Crystal Desert and Weh no Su and why can't a Tyrian/Canthan be in Ascended status after the Hunted! quest?

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial.

    The only fact being ignored is that Elonian characters being treated as Ascended is mechanical, not canonical. Ie, it would have too big of a PITA to actually enforce the lore-established rules of Ascension for heroes and Elonian PCs, so they just ignored them, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Ascension is not tied with the Prophesy, the Canthan Ascension is proof of that. The Prophesy lead to the Crystal Desert because of two things; 1) Tombs of the Primeval Kings and 2) Glint's Lair.

    The prophecy literally says:
    Those who seek audience with the gods

    That's referring to Ascension.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Why would the Prophesy lead Elonians or Tyrians somewhere else if they need to meet Glint and enter the Tombs afterwards? The most logical location for the Ascension is where Glint is and conveniently where the Tombs is located.

    The prophecy does talk about the Forgotten and Glint, but never mentions the Chosen needing to meet them. Same with the Tomb events - kitten goes on, but nothing about the Chosen there.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    Ascension can only happen through two means known to the people living in Central Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. One is through Augury Rock, or through the Celestials. One is mobile, the other isn't.

    Besides, technically speaking, Weh no Su might actually be different from Ascension, even if it results in similar effects on the body and soul.

    That train of thought just open up the possibility that Elonians might have establish a different way to Ascend, their own Weh noSu, without actually going through the Ascension process or trials. The fact that they don't need to physically go through the Ascension process is proof that they have found a way to Ascend.

    Sure, if there was literally any evidence to support the claim. Spoiler alter: there isn't.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial.

    It would only be proof they have Ascended if and only if Ascending was needed to enter the Mists.

    It's a simple logic problem. You have three statements, A, B, and C:

    A. Only those who are Ascended can physically enter the Mists. (Assumed)
    B. Elonian heroes have not Ascended. (Fact)
    C. Elonian heroes have physically entered the Mists. (Fact)

    Since all three being true is contradicting, one of the three statements must be false. The first statement is assumed, based purely off of mechanics; the second and third statements are facts.

    And your assumption comes from this:

    "People seek the aid of Grenth for many reasons. Do you dedicate this offering to one in particular?"

    "Do you seek to serve the God of Death? The challenges you shall face in the Underworld are far greater than any you have experienced in the mortal realm."
    "It is recommended you enter with a party of eight Ascended heroes. Do you still wish to enter Grenth's realm with your current group?"
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voice_of_Grenth

    But this statement does not say Ascension is required. It is recommended.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    If you take a Tyrian or Canthan character to Elona before doing their Ascension and finished the quest Hunted!, these characters would not be Ascended since they are foreign characters. The Ascension in Elona is reserved for Elonians which is another proof that Elonians have found a different way to Ascend (caveat: This is based on the Nightfall game when it was current).

    If Ascension isn't required, then why even bother with the Crystal Desert and Weh no Su and why can't a Tyrian/Canthan be in Ascended status after the Hunted! quest?

    Proph/Fact PCs technically would count as being Ascended. They'd be able to go to The Underworld / Fissure of Woe just as if they'd did Augury Rock / Nahpui Quarter. They're not Ascended in terms of lore, but neither is literally every NF NPC and half the henchmen; they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics.

    Ascension was just a limitation placed on The Underworld and Fissure of Woe because they were elite missions, which means end-game content. It was a means of isolating those two zones to players who've gone through at least half of the game. In Prophecies, Augury Rock (aka Ascension) was required to get the last 30 attribute points. The idea was that The Underworld and Fissure of Woe, the end-game of PvE content at the time, would be balanced for players who have completed those 30 attribute quests and could change their secondary professions.

    That's it. That's literally it. It was a mechanical decision, not a lore one.

    If Ascension existed in Elona's lore, it would have been mentioned at some point, not left for tinfoil hat theorists to come up. Jeff Grubb even outright stated they did the mechanical ascension thing tied to Hunted! because they were tired to repeating the whole Ascension/Weh no Su every time, and didn't want to do that yet again (though in all honesty, they could have tied it to killing The Blasphemy or something).

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial.

    The only fact being ignored is that Elonian characters being treated as Ascended is mechanical, not canonical. Ie, it would have too big of a PITA to actually enforce the lore-established rules of Ascension for heroes and Elonian PCs, so they just ignored them, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

    Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Ascension is not tied with the Prophesy, the Canthan Ascension is proof of that. The Prophesy lead to the Crystal Desert because of two things; 1) Tombs of the Primeval Kings and 2) Glint's Lair.

    The prophecy literally says:
    Those who seek audience with the gods

    That's referring to Ascension.

    The context of my reply is based on your assumption that it has to be done in the Desert. We were talking about location, not if the Ascension is ever mentioned or referred to in the Prophesy. If you re-read my reply within that context, I am talking about the location of "the Ascension is not tied to the Prophesy, the Canthan Ascension is proof of that." I hope it's clear this time. Sorry for the confusion.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Why would the Prophesy lead Elonians or Tyrians somewhere else if they need to meet Glint and enter the Tombs afterwards? The most logical location for the Ascension is where Glint is and conveniently where the Tombs is located.

    The prophecy does talk about the Forgotten and Glint, but never mentions the Chosen needing to meet them. Same with the Tomb events - kitten goes on, but nothing about the Chosen there.

    Turai said it, not the Prophesy;
    "I know that those who Ascend are destined for greatness. And I know that it will be I who leads them through the treacherous afterlife to the top of the Hall of Heroes."
    "But if you wish to know more, then you should ask the one who had the premonitions, the Prophet."
    "Her name is Glint, and she is quite old, even for a dragon."

    Turai mentioned the Halls, which is located in the Mist through the Tombs. Also the fact that the Chosen is transported to Dragon's Lair is evidence that the location of the Ascension is for Glint's convenience.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    Ascension can only happen through two means known to the people living in Central Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. One is through Augury Rock, or through the Celestials. One is mobile, the other isn't.

    Besides, technically speaking, Weh no Su might actually be different from Ascension, even if it results in similar effects on the body and soul.

    That train of thought just open up the possibility that Elonians might have establish a different way to Ascend, their own Weh noSu, without actually going through the Ascension process or trials. The fact that they don't need to physically go through the Ascension process is proof that they have found a way to Ascend.

    Sure, if there was literally any evidence to support the claim. Spoiler alter: there isn't.

    There isn't or you're just ignoring them for your own convenience.
    Proof #1) Elonians can go into the Mist without Ascension ritual
    Proof #2) Non-Ascended Tyrian and Canthan cannot go into the Mist
    Proof #3) Bringing Tyrian and Canthan to Elona doesn't make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest

    What more do you want?

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial.

    It would only be proof they have Ascended if and only if Ascending was needed to enter the Mists.

    It's a simple logic problem. You have three statements, A, B, and C:

    A. Only those who are Ascended can physically enter the Mists. (Assumed)
    B. Elonian heroes have not Ascended. (Fact)
    C. Elonian heroes have physically entered the Mists. (Fact)

    Since all three being true is contradicting, one of the three statements must be false. The first statement is assumed, based purely off of mechanics; the second and third statements are facts.

    And your assumption comes from this:

    "People seek the aid of Grenth for many reasons. Do you dedicate this offering to one in particular?"

    "Do you seek to serve the God of Death? The challenges you shall face in the Underworld are far greater than any you have experienced in the mortal realm."
    "It is recommended you enter with a party of eight Ascended heroes. Do you still wish to enter Grenth's realm with your current group?"
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voice_of_Grenth

    But this statement does not say Ascension is required. It is recommended.

    You cannot enter the Fissure of Woe or the Underworld if you have not Ascended. Fun Fact: Hero companions can enter but not the henchmen. I wonder why?

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    If you take a Tyrian or Canthan character to Elona before doing their Ascension and finished the quest Hunted!, these characters would not be Ascended since they are foreign characters. The Ascension in Elona is reserved for Elonians which is another proof that Elonians have found a different way to Ascend (caveat: This is based on the Nightfall game when it was current).

    If Ascension isn't required, then why even bother with the Crystal Desert and Weh no Su and why can't a Tyrian/Canthan be in Ascended status after the Hunted! quest?

    Proph/Fact PCs technically would count as being Ascended. They'd be able to go to The Underworld / Fissure of Woe just as if they'd did Augury Rock / Nahpui Quarter. They're not Ascended in terms of lore, but neither is literally every NF NPC and half the henchmen; they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics.

    Ascension was just a limitation placed on The Underworld and Fissure of Woe because they were elite missions, which means end-game content. It was a means of isolating those two zones to players who've gone through at least half of the game. In Prophecies, Augury Rock (aka Ascension) was required to get the last 30 attribute points. The idea was that The Underworld and Fissure of Woe, the end-game of PvE content at the time, would be balanced for players who have completed those 30 attribute quests and could change their secondary professions.

    That's it. That's literally it. It was a mechanical decision, not a lore one.

    So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists.

    If Ascension existed in Elona's lore, it would have been mentioned at some point, not left for tinfoil hat theorists to come up. Jeff Grubb even outright stated they did the mechanical ascension thing tied to Hunted! because they were tired to repeating the whole Ascension/Weh no Su every time, and didn't want to do that yet again (though in all honesty, they could have tied it to killing The Blasphemy or something).

    Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended.

    It isn't the same though. One is part of lore. The other isn't.

    And this is the lore forum.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Turai said it, not the Prophesy;

    Because Turai is more accurate about the prophecy than the prophecy itself. Right.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    There isn't or you're just ignoring them for your own convenience.
    Proof #1) Elonians can go into the Mist without Ascension ritual
    Proof #2) Non-Ascended Tyrian and Canthan cannot go into the Mist
    Proof #3) Bringing Tyrian and Canthan to Elona doesn't make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest

    What more do you want?

    "Proof #3" is incorrect. Bringing a Tyrian or Canthan to Elona DOES make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest, in terms of accessing the Underworld/Fissure of Woe. It doesn't make anyone - even Elonians - Ascended in terms of lore. Because the requirement of Ascension (aka "beat Augury Rock") is not a lore requirement for physically entering the Mists.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    You cannot enter the Fissure of Woe or the Underworld if you have not Ascended. Fun Fact: Hero companions can enter but not the henchmen. I wonder why?

    You can, if you go through the Nightfall plot and not Prophecies/Factions.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists.

    That literally has nothing to do with what I said.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars.

    -sigh-

    Ignoring the last statement which is beyond unfounded, you proclaimed that there was a method of Ascension in Elona itself. That is what I was referring to, not people knowing about Ascension, but there not being a method of Ascension (or similar) in Elona. Crystal Desert != Elona, for clarity's sake.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended.

    It isn't the same though. One is part of lore. The other isn't.

    And this is the lore forum.

    Being Ascended is part of lore. If Elonian's doesn't need Ascension, how are they seeing the Mursaat. Only Ascended heroes gain the Gift of True Sight.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Turai said it, not the Prophesy;

    Because Turai is more accurate about the prophecy than the prophecy itself. Right.

    The Prophesies are just vision, Turai is the interpreter of that vision. How else would he had figured out that Glint is in the Crystal Desert and to conduct that Ascension there? You said it yourself, the Prophesy didn't say anything about the location., which proves that Turai can interpret the Prophesies to an extent.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    There isn't or you're just ignoring them for your own convenience.
    Proof #1) Elonians can go into the Mist without Ascension ritual
    Proof #2) Non-Ascended Tyrian and Canthan cannot go into the Mist
    Proof #3) Bringing Tyrian and Canthan to Elona doesn't make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest

    What more do you want?

    "Proof #3" is incorrect. Bringing a Tyrian or Canthan to Elona DOES make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest, in terms of accessing the Underworld/Fissure of Woe. It doesn't make anyone - even Elonians - Ascended in terms of lore. Because the requirement of Ascension (aka "beat Augury Rock") is not a lore requirement for physically entering the Mists.

    I'm not just talking about access to the Mist. I'm also talking about other lore related thing about being Ascended. The Gift of True Sight.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    You cannot enter the Fissure of Woe or the Underworld if you have not Ascended. Fun Fact: Hero companions can enter but not the henchmen. I wonder why?

    You can, if you go through the Nightfall plot and not Prophecies/Factions.

    This is not the case when Nightfall was still current. I need to confirm this tonight.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists.

    That literally has nothing to do with what I said.

    "They're not Ascended in terms of lore...they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics."

    They are Ascended in terms of lore, thus they are Ascended in terms of mechanics.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars.

    -sigh-

    Ignoring the last statement which is beyond unfounded, you proclaimed that there was a method of Ascension in Elona itself. That is what I was referring to, not people knowing about Ascension, but there not being a method of Ascension (or similar) in Elona. Crystal Desert != Elona, for clarity's sake.

    Huh? Crystal Desert is in the continent of Elona. It was ruled by the Primeval Kings of Elona. So yes, Ascension is always been part of Elona.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended.

    It isn't the same though. One is part of lore. The other isn't.

    And this is the lore forum.

    Being Ascended is part of lore. If Elonian's doesn't need Ascension, how are they seeing the Mursaat. Only Ascended heroes gain the Gift of True Sight.

    They're not. There are no mursaat in Nightfall. And when doing the Prophecies campaign it's taken as if the previous missions were done.

    And it's only required to see mursaat who are trying to hide. Saul wasn't Ascended and saw the mursaat just fine.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Prophesies are just vision, Turai is the interpreter of that vision. How else would he had figured out that Glint is in the Crystal Desert and to conduct that Ascension there? You said it yourself, the Prophesy didn't say anything about the location., which proves that Turai can interpret the Prophesies to an extent.

    We don't know how Glint came with the prophecy, vision or no, but Turai is not interpreting the vision. He's interpreting the prophecy that was written by Glint who foresaw the future in some manner.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    I'm not just talking about access to the Mist. I'm also talking about other lore related thing about being Ascended. The Gift of True Sight.

    You were originally.

    There's nothing related to the Gift of True Sight in Nightfall or Eye of the North. Nothing that requires the NF characters to be Ascended. Your original claim was stating that one must be Ascended to safely and physically enter the Mists and return. This claim is false. Now you're claiming your claim was something else, something that is irrelevant to Elonians.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    This is not the case when Nightfall was still current. I need to confirm this tonight.

    Yes, it was.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists.

    That literally has nothing to do with what I said.

    "They're not Ascended in terms of lore...they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics."

    They are Ascended in terms of lore, thus they are Ascended in terms of mechanics.

    There are times when lore != mechanics and vice versa. One of those times is characters "ascending" with the Hunted! quest.

    That doesn't change that Ascension in terms of lore has nothing to do with the mechanical limitations that ArenaNet placed to require completing mechanically-Ascension-giving if-then-else clauses. Specifically, entering The Underworld and Fissure of Woe maps required completing Augury Rock (and later, Naphui Quarter or Hunted!), and was telegraphed through what Augury Rock's mission represents, but it was never a lore requirement to enter those areas, just a mechanical ones.

    So the statement that "In lore, Ascension is needed to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see mursaat or other hidden things" has literally zero barring on my statement about the mechanical limitation on accessing the elite missions dubbed The Underworld and The Fissure of Woe.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars.

    -sigh-

    Ignoring the last statement which is beyond unfounded, you proclaimed that there was a method of Ascension in Elona itself. That is what I was referring to, not people knowing about Ascension, but there not being a method of Ascension (or similar) in Elona. Crystal Desert != Elona, for clarity's sake.

    Huh? Crystal Desert is in the continent of Elona. It was ruled by the Primeval Kings of Elona. So yes, Ascension is always been part of Elona.

    Check the world map next time you log in. Which one is it on? Ah, yes, Tyria.

    Besides, you know from the context of the discussion, that we were both talking about Elona proper - the three provinces of Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi - and not ancient boundaries lore.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr?

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr?

    The Eye of Janthir gifted True Sight to Livia & the Commander during that instance. It's why we had to break its defiance bar whenever Lazarus went invisible. Ascension grants True Sight permanently.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr?

    The Eye of Janthir gifted True Sight to Livia & the Commander during that instance. It's why we had to break its defiance bar whenever Lazarus went invisible. Ascension grants True Sight permanently.

    But didn't the Commander undergo the ritual of Ascension to get access to divine fire?

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr?

    The Eye of Janthir gifted True Sight to Livia & the Commander during that instance. It's why we had to break its defiance bar whenever Lazarus went invisible. Ascension grants True Sight permanently.

    But didn't the Commander undergo the ritual of Ascension to get access to divine fire?

    No. Ogden actually nipped that idea in the bud. All we did in that instance was enact a one-time ritual to produce divine fire.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr?

    The Eye of Janthir gifted True Sight to Livia & the Commander during that instance. It's why we had to break its defiance bar whenever Lazarus went invisible. Ascension grants True Sight permanently.

    But didn't the Commander undergo the ritual of Ascension to get access to divine fire?

    You don't need Ascension to get the Divine Fire. In GW1, you actually receive the Divine Fire prior to the Ascension trial by completing 3 missions in the desert.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended.

    It isn't the same though. One is part of lore. The other isn't.

    And this is the lore forum.

    Being Ascended is part of lore. If Elonian's doesn't need Ascension, how are they seeing the Mursaat. Only Ascended heroes gain the Gift of True Sight.

    They're not. There are no mursaat in Nightfall. And when doing the Prophecies campaign it's taken as if the previous missions were done.

    I wasn't talking about the Prophesies event in particular.

    The Nighfall event was on 1075 AE, the War in Kryta event was on 1079 AE where Elonians are helping Princess Salma to repel the White Mantle. Elonian, if not Ascended, should not been able to see the Mursaat during the missions.

    And it's only required to see mursaat who are trying to hide. Saul wasn't Ascended and saw the mursaat just fine.

    Mursaat can choose to manifest among their faithful followers.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The Prophesies are just vision, Turai is the interpreter of that vision. How else would he had figured out that Glint is in the Crystal Desert and to conduct that Ascension there? You said it yourself, the Prophesy didn't say anything about the location., which proves that Turai can interpret the Prophesies to an extent.

    We don't know how Glint came with the prophecy, vision or no, but Turai is not interpreting the vision. He's interpreting the prophecy that was written by Glint who foresaw the future in some manner.

    The Prophesies are Glint's visions.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    I'm not just talking about access to the Mist. I'm also talking about other lore related thing about being Ascended. The Gift of True Sight.

    You were originally.

    There's nothing related to the Gift of True Sight in Nightfall or Eye of the North. Nothing that requires the NF characters to be Ascended. Your original claim was stating that one must be Ascended to safely and physically enter the Mists and return. This claim is false. Now you're claiming your claim was something else, something that is irrelevant to Elonians.

    War in Kryta, GW Beyond missions. The Gift of True Sight is relevant for both, the Mist and the Mursaat due to Ascension. NF heroes are fighting the Mursaat in those missions.

    And please don't misrepresent my claim. My initial claim was, "the only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones" which is true. Just because the Devs got lazy and didn't add an Ascension ritual in NF doesn't necessarily means that the heroes are not Ascended. There are so many proofs that the NF heroes are Ascended you're just trying to deny them.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    This is not the case when Nightfall was still current. I need to confirm this tonight.

    Yes, it was.

    I digress this point since it will take some time before I get to that point.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists.

    That literally has nothing to do with what I said.

    "They're not Ascended in terms of lore...they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics."

    They are Ascended in terms of lore, thus they are Ascended in terms of mechanics.

    There are times when lore != mechanics and vice versa. One of those times is characters "ascending" with the Hunted! quest.

    That doesn't change that Ascension in terms of lore has nothing to do with the mechanical limitations that ArenaNet placed to require completing mechanically-Ascension-giving if-then-else clauses. Specifically, entering The Underworld and Fissure of Woe maps required completing Augury Rock (and later, Naphui Quarter or Hunted!), and was telegraphed through what Augury Rock's mission represents, but it was never a lore requirement to enter those areas, just a mechanical ones.

    So the statement that "In lore, Ascension is needed to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see mursaat or other hidden things" has literally zero barring on my statement about the mechanical limitation on accessing the elite missions dubbed The Underworld and The Fissure of Woe.

    The mechanical limitation is based on the lore.

    The GW manuscript states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world into the immaterial. It was the Land of the Dead, an exclusive club whose membership cost the blood of one's own life. But within the last century all that has changed."

    It is describing the Ascension ritual where non-dead humans can go to the Mist, then to the Rift, then to the Halls.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars.

    -sigh-

    Ignoring the last statement which is beyond unfounded, you proclaimed that there was a method of Ascension in Elona itself. That is what I was referring to, not people knowing about Ascension, but there not being a method of Ascension (or similar) in Elona. Crystal Desert != Elona, for clarity's sake.

    Huh? Crystal Desert is in the continent of Elona. It was ruled by the Primeval Kings of Elona. So yes, Ascension is always been part of Elona.

    Check the world map next time you log in. Which one is it on? Ah, yes, Tyria.

    Besides, you know from the context of the discussion, that we were both talking about Elona proper - the three provinces of Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi - and not ancient boundaries lore.

    Sorry but the Flameseeker Prophesies predates the provinces of Elona by hundreds of years. Which means the Ascension process has been known in Elona for a very long time. Turai learned about it after studying ancient wisdom in Elona. Ancient wisdom means, they are oral tradition passed down for generations.

    The Tombs of the past Elonian kings is located in the Crystal Desert because it is part of Elona. Why would they bury the Primeval Kings of Elona in Tyria? That makes zero sense. Only after the Great Dynasty ended that the provinces of Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi existed.

    If you click on the context of Tyria from the wiki, you'll find this, "Crystal Desert - Vast desert on the boundary with the nation of Elona." Then if you click on Elona, you'll find this, "The Crystal Desert lies north of Elona" -- it's always been part of Elona.

    Mechanically for GW1, the Crystal Desert is part of Tyria -- mechanically. However lore-wise, the Crystal Desert is always been part of Elona.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The GW manuscript states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world into the immaterial. It was the Land of the Dead, an exclusive club whose membership cost the blood of one's own life. But within the last century all that has changed."

    The wiki says:

    "Originally, it was only those very souls who had access to the Hall of Heroes and the Rift. In 851 AE, using a spell of his own creation and with countless sacrifices, Lord Odran had opened permanent portals granting him access to the Rift, which in turn granted him access to the Hall of Heroes and countless worlds within The Mists. Enraged at their prized afterlife being defiled by a mortal researchers, the souls of the Hall of Heroes attacked Lord Odran with their collective might, but had long since forgotten how to interact with the physical world. For years, Lord Odran traveled the Rift, and the Hall of Heroes, across the multiverse. Eventually, the spirits of the Hall had discovered a way to interact with the corporeal world. When Odran had returned to the Hall, they tore the wizard lord to shreds in desire of retribution for his trespasses.

    Lord Odran's death, however, unveiled the numerous protections he had left over his portals, granting any mortal able to reach them free access to the Mists. For over two centuries, tournaments were held at some of these portals, such as the one placed in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, where mortals fought to impress the legends of old. Though initially enraged by trespassers, the souls found enjoyment at watching, and even guiding, these tournament."

    IOW, it suggests that it was the death of Odran and subsequent discovery of his portals that changed everything, not Ascension (which only a few characters, including the protagonists, ever canonically underwent)

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The GW manuscript states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world into the immaterial. It was the Land of the Dead, an exclusive club whose membership cost the blood of one's own life. But within the last century all that has changed."

    The wiki says:

    "Originally, it was only those very souls who had access to the Hall of Heroes and the Rift. In 851 AE, using a spell of his own creation and with countless sacrifices, Lord Odran had opened permanent portals granting him access to the Rift, which in turn granted him access to the Hall of Heroes and countless worlds within The Mists. Enraged at their prized afterlife being defiled by a mortal researchers, the souls of the Hall of Heroes attacked Lord Odran with their collective might, but had long since forgotten how to interact with the physical world. For years, Lord Odran traveled the Rift, and the Hall of Heroes, across the multiverse. Eventually, the spirits of the Hall had discovered a way to interact with the corporeal world. When Odran had returned to the Hall, they tore the wizard lord to shreds in desire of retribution for his trespasses.

    Lord Odran's death, however, unveiled the numerous protections he had left over his portals, granting any mortal able to reach them free access to the Mists. For over two centuries, tournaments were held at some of these portals, such as the one placed in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, where mortals fought to impress the legends of old. Though initially enraged by trespassers, the souls found enjoyment at watching, and even guiding, these tournament."

    IOW, it suggests that it was the death of Odran and subsequent discovery of his portals that changed everything, not Ascension (which only a few characters, including the protagonists, ever canonically underwent)

    You have to re-read it carefully. It states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world... It was the Land of the Dead..." -- meaning you have to be dead to get there. So what changed? Mortals gaining access to the Hall, specifically the Ascended, changed all that.

    Turai can't go to the Hall without Ascending, which is weird but that is the case of his predicament. He said,
    "The Chosen ones will come and help me gain access to the Mists and pass into the Hall of Heroes"
    "I was one of the Chosen. But I passed from this world before I could rise to Ascension"
    "The tests of Ascension can only be performed by mortals."
    "I know that it will be I who leads them (The Chosen) through the treacherous afterlife to the top of the Hall of Heroes"

    Just like the Great Zehtuka, Lord Odran had done things that only Ascended mortals can do and we have little information about them. The only thing we can use is what happened to the Chosen and the trial they have to go through to enter the Mist.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    You have to re-read it carefully. It states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world... It was the Land of the Dead..." -- meaning you have to be dead to get there. So what changed? Mortals gaining access to the Hall, specifically the Ascended, changed all that.

    It seems (edit: that it is referring to the same situation as the other passage, which is pretty clearly) saying that mortals gained access to the Hall of Heroes en masse by utilizing Odran's portal. Ascension had nothing to do with it. I don't think canon rules out that the Chosen and Weh No Su were more than one person, but they wouldn't have been more than a few individuals, and they were a little too busy saving the world to run off and fight a tournament in the Mists.

    Fissure of Woe and Underworld are a little different, since access was granted by the gods' avatars to those they deemed worthy, and Ascension was a means to demonstrate that worthiness. But that means that the relationship of Ascension and the Mists was more about being granted a permission, not obtaining a metaphysical capability to walk the Mists.

    But to use a simpler example -- there are very few, if any, Ascended individuals in the world (Livia, maybe) -- though PoF shows that some people are still seeking that status. Despite that, every racial city has NPCs talking about their time fighting in the Mist War. Are they Ascended?

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    You have to re-read it carefully. It states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world... It was the Land of the Dead..." -- meaning you have to be dead to get there. So what changed? Mortals gaining access to the Hall, specifically the Ascended, changed all that.

    It seems pretty clear that it is saying that mortals gained access to the Hall of Heroes en masse by utilizing Odran's portal. Ascension had nothing to do with it. I don't think canon rules out that the Chosen and Weh No Su were more than one person, but they wouldn't have been more than a few individuals, and they were a little too busy saving the world to run off and fight a tournament in the Mists.

    Fissure of Woe and Underworld are a little different, since access was granted by the gods' avatars to those they deemed worthy, and Ascension was a means to demonstrate that worthiness. But that means that the relationship of Ascension and the Mists was more about being granted a permission, not obtaining a metaphysical capability to walk the Mists.

    But to use a simpler example -- there are very few, if any, Ascended individuals in the world (Livia, maybe) -- though PoF shows that some people are still seeking that status. Despite that, every racial city has NPCs talking about their time fighting in the Mist War. Are they Ascended?

    In my very first post;

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    If a human died and went to the Mist, I don't think they can ever come back. The only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones. I don't remember a non-Ascended human to ever come back. However, that was the GW1 lore that no longer applies in GW2.

    In GW2, we just marched to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings and went to the Mist without the need of Ascension, then came back whole. However, I guess it is debatable whether the Sunspear Trial was a form of Ascension to gain the favor of Kormir which gave us access to her library, but we're already in the Mist at that point, sooo...anyway...

    We don't know how many Ascended are there since you can perform the Ascension, or similar to it (e.g. Cantha), anywhere.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

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