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What was "It"? [spoilers]

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited May 14, 2019 in Lore

Did Kralkatorrik lose his mind and develop another personality, or is there something sentient about magic? Also we went into Mordremoth's mind and there was no torment, is It unique to Kralkatorrik?

Comments

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it has something to do with how the forgotten tried to cleanse him, it must have only cleansed a part of him that got partitioned and the torment is the part that is usually in control.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    I think it has something to do with how the forgotten tried to cleanse him, it must have only cleansed a part of him that got partitioned and the torment is the part that is usually in control.

    That is incredibly interesting. That would explain why Mordremoth's mind was comparatively whole.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Baring the theory that @Eekasqueak.7850 presents, another possibility is that it is indeed a split personality which was created by overdosing on magic (and I don't mean from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar as it's apparent he was acting out the way of his Torment during Edge of Destiny). This falls in line with how mortals exposed to ley lines or bloodstone magic will go insane.

    The implication - if Forgotten ritual is not involved (I somehow doubt ArenaNet would maintain such a minor detail when they forget so many others, especially when shifting from expansion to LW and vice versa) - shown here is that Kralkatorrik was originally a kinder being, but had been driven insane. Perhaps as his role as Elder Dragon, perhaps because of so much magic, or some things he felt forced to do, and this created this darker self of his. He listened to it, fell to it, and only began to break free of it when he began dying.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    is It unique to Kralkatorrik?

    Apparently, dragons have personalities like mortals do, and Kralkatorrik turned out to not be the "pure evil" after all but corrupted (driven insane?) by the overload of magic from two other elder dragons in addition to his own. And in death, he realized that the future was to be without him, so he was begging to be released from what has driven his mind into blind rage and an insatiable hunger, namely the influence and magic that wasn't his own by nature's design. I felt like listening to Gollum. ;)

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    and Kralkatorrik turned out to not be the "pure evil" after all but corrupted (driven insane?) by the overload of magic from two other elder dragons in addition to his own.

    I'm not sure that's what drove him insane. He mentioned how the Torment told him to destroy everything in order to find peace; considering how he was already destroying everything before we killed our first Elder Dragon, it feels like Kralk has been insane for quite some time now.

    "Tomorrow my master chokes on his own whip!" - Lore of Skaen, PoE

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    and Kralkatorrik turned out to not be the "pure evil" after all but corrupted (driven insane?) by the overload of magic from two other elder dragons in addition to his own.

    I'm not sure that's what drove him insane. He mentioned how the Torment told him to destroy everything in order to find peace; considering how he was already destroying everything before we killed our first Elder Dragon, it feels like Kralk has been insane for quite some time now.

    I don't think he's been insane before. Where do we even draw that line? Assuming he was "peaceful" before, just living his own life, do we really consider it insane that he kills people? Devastates landscapes? That's just how he naturally behaves. A being that size with an appetite that large doesn't care much about his surroundings. He is doing what his nature as a dragon compels him to do: Consume magic. Maybe he just woke up because of that immense pain he suffered and given their cycles kind of reminisce that of a hibernating bear he was probably very grumpy to be woken up like that.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    That's just how he naturally behaves.

    Is it?

    Or was that the effect of madness/Torment/whatever?

    "Tomorrow my master chokes on his own whip!" - Lore of Skaen, PoE

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    and Kralkatorrik turned out to not be the "pure evil" after all but corrupted (driven insane?) by the overload of magic from two other elder dragons in addition to his own.

    I'm not sure that's what drove him insane. He mentioned how the Torment told him to destroy everything in order to find peace; considering how he was already destroying everything before we killed our first Elder Dragon, it feels like Kralk has been insane for quite some time now.

    Esp as Snaff only ever detected his rage. No split inside, no conflict within. Just unfathomable rage.

    Which means he was like this when he woke up when he had less power. And given Glints comments, in earlier cycles too.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    and Kralkatorrik turned out to not be the "pure evil" after all but corrupted (driven insane?) by the overload of magic from two other elder dragons in addition to his own.

    I'm not sure that's what drove him insane. He mentioned how the Torment told him to destroy everything in order to find peace; considering how he was already destroying everything before we killed our first Elder Dragon, it feels like Kralk has been insane for quite some time now.

    Esp as Snaff only ever detected his rage. No split inside, no conflict within. Just unfathomable rage.

    Which means he was like this when he woke up when he had less power. And given Glints comments, in earlier cycles too.

    If Snaff/Jennah didn't detect conflict within, why would that mean he was like this when he woke up? Wouldn't it be the opposite?

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Also we went into Mordremoth's mind and there was no torment, is It unique to Kralkatorrik?

    Mordremoth didn't have 4 types of magic fighting with each other. Kralk had Kralk magic, Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar. Mordremoth had Mordremoth and Zhaitan.

    Also Mordremoth isn't a wuss. He's the dragon of mind, hard to play mental games and torment that.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Esp as Snaff only ever detected his rage. No split inside, no conflict within. Just unfathomable rage.

    Which means he was like this when he woke up when he had less power. And given Glints comments, in earlier cycles too.

    Maybe we will discover the origin of the dragons and their different personalities some day. :)

  • ChronoPinoyX.7923ChronoPinoyX.7923 Member ✭✭✭

    The way I see it, Elder Dragons act more like filtration systems. The magic they absorb are partially influenced with the users so when Elders become more malevolent, it's like a filter getting all that gunk (gunk being the influence of magic users they absorbed magic from) and the magic that the elders bleed out are the clean magic that flows through Tyria.

    Because that filter hasn't been cleaned for such a long time, that gunk is now bleeding out of the filter as well. It may just be a case for Kralkatorrik since Mordremoth showed no compassion when we fight him, but Zhaitan's case is a bit different. Zhaitan had a moment, even if short, where he had a truce with us when we see his eye in the Source of Orr. I mean yeah he was most likely trying to play us but Modremoth was just plain ruthless in his plan whereas both Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan showed levels of decency, even if they weren't the same level, it was still there.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    One of Kralkatorrik's last lines is that he hopes Aurene doesn't have to kill those that she loves in time. This and his crying 'mother' right before his heart explodes sounded pretty indicative to me that he became tormented eons ago, and it probably had to do with his kin.

    Balthazar, Zhaitan and Mordremoth's magic might actually have triggered the personality split to begin with - before that, and taking Edge of Destiny as well as Glint as references, he was just pure torment and all consuming (of course this is a clever retcon for this season, they likely wrote as they went, but it fits well anyway). The instability and the punishment to his external body is what caused old Kralkatorrik to split from torment, rather than causing the torment to begin with.

    Interpreting it like this we don't need to think of his background as foreshadowing for anything (I think Anet went for actual closure this time, and not really leaving anything loose), and it also explains why Mordremoth and by extension Zhaitan had no such conflict. Their magic was pretty stable all things considered, and if we are to assume that the Elder Dragon behave like they do out of some grueling pain, they are all at their "tormented selves" unable to recognize anything else (Mordremoth let it pretty clear that he thought he was the world itself). I agree with Konig that Anet probably didn't really think of the Forgotten when coming up with this, and it's a more general split personality issue.

    As for your secondary assumption (that maybe magic is sentient), well, is that not what a Djinn is? In the case of Kralk however, I think we're looking at split personalities and not some underlying theme of magic itself wanting to erase us.

    Regardless of any of this, I think we're definitely set up to not move beyond the Elder Dragon plot anytime soon. They opened a lot more interesting questions about these creatures and there's still an active one around that we haven't even seen - and has been eating leylines with no interference whatsoever that we know of, all this time.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    I don't think he's been insane before. Where do we even draw that line? Assuming he was "peaceful" before, just living his own life, do we really consider it insane that he kills people? Devastates landscapes? That's just how he naturally behaves. A being that size with an appetite that large doesn't care much about his surroundings. He is doing what his nature as a dragon compels him to do: Consume magic. Maybe he just woke up because of that immense pain he suffered and given their cycles kind of reminisce that of a hibernating bear he was probably very grumpy to be woken up like that.

    The dialogue makes it sound like destroying everything is not how he naturally behaves. Plus, in Edge of Destiny, we get a narration of Kralkatorrik's mind and wants and it is indeed that Kralkatorrik sought to consume everything and detested anything that was not himself, mirroring what Kralkatorrik's Torment was talking about.

    Not only that, but Kralkatorrik's sanity spoke of caring about his child and grandchildren, but is driven to kill them by his Torment, yet he had personally hunted down and killed Glint when he woke up, before the Pact killed Zhaitan.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    As for your secondary assumption (that maybe magic is sentient), well, is that not what a Djinn is?

    Djinn are effectively evolved, sapient elementals. Not really magic themselves but (if they're born like other elementals) born because of it.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    In the case of Kralk however, I think we're looking at split personalities and not some underlying theme of magic itself wanting to erase us.

    If there was a plot of "magic itself wanting to erase us" or even just "magic having a personality", I think that plot would take the form of the Dream and Nightmare. We don't yet know what they are even after all this time, or why the only beings connected to it were Mordremoth, the Pale Tree, and White Stag (and why not all mordrem/sylvari are connected to it), or why the Dream and Nightmare both seeks to kill Elder Dragons while battling each other.

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  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    is there something sentient about magic?

    Could be, we know that high concentrations of magic can spawn elementals which wouldn't make any sense if magic was nothing more than energy. The reason why Kralkatorrik was rampaging was because the corruption promised him that his pain would go away if he kept destroying things. Now we don't know what exactly magic in this world actually is but assuming that it is some kind of "entity" it would make sense that it wouldn't just want to be used by other beings.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Did Kralkatorrik lose his mind and develop another personality, or is there something sentient about magic? Also we went into Mordremoth's mind and there was no torment, is It unique to Kralkatorrik?

    Kral is like a drunk co-worker in an after-work party where they drink too much and become brutally honest enumerating all their grievances that everyone in the restaurant can hear. Then when you remove the Zhaitan cocktail, the Mord shots, and Baltazar beer...they return to their kind and caring personality.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    It is very easy to be driven mad by prognostication; and it gets worse the further into the future you see. Remember, Kralkatorrik saw not mere decades into the future as Glint did, but millenia. The sheer number of possible futures and outcomes over thousands to tens of thousands of years of events and decision-making by billions of influential beings... that would be enough to have even a dragon built specifically for that questioning its own sanity.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

    Wait what? Link? He doesn't have an alternate personality he has a sentient magical overlord?

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

    Wait what? Link? He doesn't have an alternate personality he has a sentient magical overlord?

    Why would that suggest "sentient" magical overlord. I don't even know that it's an alternate personality (in the sense that people normally mean), just a dominant aspect of personality -- nihilistic, self-destructive hunger.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

    Well, sort of. It was, but they posed the question essentially asking, "But is there something else exacerbating this?" Which implies that even though it was the magic, there may be another force that was at work.

    I wonder if, while we're focused on elder dragons, their origin, and attributing all of this potential manipulation and chaos to elder dragons, if there should be more thought put into the idea of beings that preceeded the elder dragons or may have aided in their creation. There are other beings like the Norn spirits, the celestials, Arachnia, and so on. We don't really know anything about them, and we haven't had any lore given to them. But it would be interesting if some of this manipulation that Kralk or the other dragons could have been enduring could have been caused by something far more ancient.

    Though if they went this route, I would be far more inclined to believe that Bubbles has something to do with it more than the others, given its homage to Lovecraft. While they may not descend from the same being, I think the speculation that Bubbles could be a lot more "active" than we see could be a high possibility.

    People mention that Bubbles potentially holding domain over water because it's in the ocean means that it could be the progenitor of elder dragons as water is most essential for life, but given that in the guild chat they mentioned they don't internally know what the origin of the elder dragons is, I pose the theory that it's not the fact that water is essential for life, but it's the abundancy of water in the world that's key.

    Side by side you essentially have:
    DSD - unknown Kralk - crystal, energy, and potentially air.
    Mordremoth - life, earth, etch. Zhaitan you have death and shadow.
    Primordus you have earth, fire heat. Jormag - ice and cold, and potentially air.

    Examining them, it's funny that of the elder dragons we know of and have seen - the ones on the left side of the diagram have all been fairly ground-based dragons closer to the earth, and the ones on the right side of the diagram have all been shown as very airborn and connectioned to the sky/air.
    I know my long post about the all wasn't very well received on here, and I'm not sure if they've really put this much thought into it, but this diagram:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:The_All_(texture).png

    As much as they love asymmetry in their gear design, it could mean nothing, but tracing the lines of this diagram and seeing how each is connected or placed in relation to the other could fuel some rather long theories. I wonder if this is also hints at power ranking.

  • ukuni.8745ukuni.8745 Member ✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

    Well, sort of. It was, but they posed the question essentially asking, "But is there something else exacerbating this?" Which implies that even though it was the magic, there may be another force that was at work.

    Thats interesting, my thought was that it had potential for demons to be involved apparently they are born from the mists from malevolent forces like hate yada (dont quote me on that tho) when kralk says to aurene that he hopes she dosent have to kill someone that she loves it can be implied that kralk had to do that to possibly his mother which would most likely bring the feelings involved in creating a demon

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ukuni.8745 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

    Well, sort of. It was, but they posed the question essentially asking, "But is there something else exacerbating this?" Which implies that even though it was the magic, there may be another force that was at work.

    Thats interesting, my thought was that it had potential for demons to be involved apparently they are born from the mists from malevolent forces like hate yada (dont quote me on that tho) when kralk says to aurene that he hopes she dosent have to kill someone that she loves it can be implied that kralk had to do that to possibly his mother which would most likely bring the feelings involved in creating a demon

    That question was asked to, and they answered that it was in fact referring to Glint. Lol

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

    Wait what? Link? He doesn't have an alternate personality he has a sentient magical overlord?

    "we're hearing the argument that's going between him and the part of him that is tormenting him which is really sort of the manifestation of all those magics"

    source

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Well, sort of. It was, but they posed the question essentially asking, "But is there something else exacerbating this?" Which implies that even though it was the magic, there may be another force that was at work.

    Well we don't even know what magic actually is, whenever there's a magic leak elementals start to form. This is very reminiscent of an immune system assuming that the magic in this world in itself is some kind of "entity".

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I wonder if, while we're focused on elder dragons, their origin, and attributing all of this potential manipulation and chaos to elder dragons, if there should be more thought put into the idea of beings that preceeded the elder dragons or may have aided in their creation.

    We know though some NPC dialogue that all of the elder dragons used to be normal dragons who made it to "the top of the food chain" by consuming vasts amounts on magic. Over the course of time most people forgot about their origin and just assumed that they've always been there. So basically elder dragons are essentially just dragon's mutated by consuming to much magic. There are no beings that "created" them (aside from their parents) but there are definitely beings more ancient than them.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:
    We know though some NPC dialogue that all of the elder dragons used to be normal dragons who made it to "the top of the food chain" by consuming vasts amounts on magic. Over the course of time most people forgot about their origin and just assumed that they've always been there. So basically elder dragons are essentially just dragon's mutated by consuming to much magic. There are no beings that "created" them (aside from their parents) but there are definitely beings more ancient than them.

    During the Guild Chat, the devs stated that they haven't made lore for the Elder Dragons' origins. So I'm very questionable about that NPC dialogue you mention. Got a source?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ukuni.8745ukuni.8745 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @ukuni.8745 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

    Well, sort of. It was, but they posed the question essentially asking, "But is there something else exacerbating this?" Which implies that even though it was the magic, there may be another force that was at work.

    Thats interesting, my thought was that it had potential for demons to be involved apparently they are born from the mists from malevolent forces like hate yada (dont quote me on that tho) when kralk says to aurene that he hopes she dosent have to kill someone that she loves it can be implied that kralk had to do that to possibly his mother which would most likely bring the feelings involved in creating a demon

    That question was asked to, and they answered that it was in fact referring to Glint. Lol

    Yea i didnt watch it haha thanks for that info tho in retrospect that makes enough sense that i should have picked up on that.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Are there any other decent info bits from the guild chat?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Well the most recent guild chat answered this question, "it" was the magic that corrupted him.

    Wait what? Link? He doesn't have an alternate personality he has a sentient magical overlord?

    "we're hearing the argument that's going between him and the part of him that is tormenting him which is really sort of the manifestation of all those magics"

    source

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Well, sort of. It was, but they posed the question essentially asking, "But is there something else exacerbating this?" Which implies that even though it was the magic, there may be another force that was at work.

    Well we don't even know what magic actually is, whenever there's a magic leak elementals start to form. This is very reminiscent of an immune system assuming that the magic in this world in itself is some kind of "entity".

    Is your assumption that this manifestation, the Torment, was an elemental?