Bladestrom.6425

But that's a content you came to enjoy. Was there never content in the game that you never enjoyed? Like I said, I agree with the idea that content can draw you to an area, there can be portions that require you to spend a little time doing a specific thing, and if you really enjoy it, then great, you can keep doing it. If you really don't enjoy it though, especially if the goal takes months to earn, then they should let you do something else instead. But none of what you describe could be compared at all to raiding. You describe minor inconveniences and half-week grinds, when what we're talking about is a multi-month grind of very complex and deliberately annoying content. Apples and oranges. But again, that can be accomplished with a short term goal, it doesn't require a long term one. Why is it good for the game for WvW to be a thing, in the abstract? If people don't want to do it, why should they have to? Is it worth spending developer resources on the mode if people only do it because the developers bribe them into it? Wouldn't it just be better if players didn't play that mode, and instead those resources were spent on the content they actually wanted to play? Existing WVW players (and indeed all potential players) need long term goals, so Anet added them to wvw to fill the gap. WVW already had a ton of short term goals. Other players got attracted to WVW as a result as the overall content package became more attractive.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything That's your own conviction. Mine is that you will deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase.In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. LOL.. what.. did you think that because HoT failed big time they would cease making Living World? Really? And PoF is nothing like HoT. ? hot was a success both commercially and technically and introduced a ton of content. No it wasn't, in fact, Colin openly admitted as he left the Studio, that HoT didn't go over nearly as well as they had hoped.'nearly as well as they had hoped' does not equate to failure. If it was a big time failure they would not have created another expansion along same lines.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything That's your own conviction. Mine is that you will deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase.In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. LOL.. what.. did you think that because HoT failed big time they would cease making Living World? Really? And PoF is nothing like HoT.? hot was a success both commercially and technically and introduced a ton of content.

You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. So add more Legendary items to raiding? Yeah no thanks, I prefer they spread the trinkets and so forth among the other game modes too. really, i think anyone who would do the instance would love legendary items. Visualise that you wanted to do the instances , suddenly trinkets that get sharded straight away these days are not so attractive right, but then again you dont really think this is an attractive reward do you. A new legendary skin for normal mode and a bunch of raiding trinkets for hard mode was what I was referring to.ah apologies misunderstood, that makes sense and seems reasonable :)

the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. So add more Legendary items to raiding? Yeah no thanks, I prefer they spread the trinkets and so forth among the other game modes too.really, i think anyone who would do the instance would love legendary items. Visualise that you wanted to do the instances , suddenly trinkets that get sharded straight away these days are not so attractive right, but then again you dont really think this is an attractive reward do you.

the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely.its always possible to look for issues where you are not in solution mode though. At a basic 'minimum viable product' (for those that understand that term) Create a copy of the instance, reduce dmg across the board by x% and create a copy of legendary from wvw or pvp and tweak the skins to give rewards. Job done for phase 1.

the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence.

lol i need to look at this envoy armor again (i thought it was a bit ugly tbh), people are SO VERY VERY DESPERATE to keep it all for themselves/get it through some other content, it must be a glorious gamechanger!

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it. I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it. People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too. I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet. 2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all. Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre. so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same. sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre. If you cant empathise there's not much that's going to persuade you is there., and you are missing the point of my initial post. The point is existing raids get something desirable, and easy mode raiders get something too. The people that gain from these raids are people just like you incidently, not 2nd class citizens because they cant commit to the existing style of raiding. Read the post from your fellow raiders above, they can appreciate and understand compromise. You're switching arguments. This has nothing to do with claiming that " wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same". Nope easy mode players wouldn't be 2nd class citizens, of course not. Of course they should get something. I'm not saying that, you're assuming things. The only thing I'm saying is that easy mode shouldn't give a legendary armor. I even said that it could give the pre, and that's more than what other tiered game modes give right now. Let's be fair, it isn't normal that both easy mode and normal mode give a legendary armor. Easy mode could give ascended drops, the pre, idk, a lot of things, but not the legen.No the 'only' thing you are saying is that people who raid easy mode shouldn't get the rewards that are given to wvw, spvp and raids purely because you don't want them to get them. Very odd considering quite obviously pve players would love this. You basically ignored the points above and went back to infer the old argument that PVE players either change their tastes and/or their real life commitments ( or is it 'not be lazy') or f*ck em they can make do with non legendary rewards. very fair to be sure and altruistic, especially with your 'give ascended drops' knowing fine well ascended is no longer a long term goal and are trivial to obtain.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it. I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it. People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too. I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet. 2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all. Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre. so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same. sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre.If you cant empathise there's not much that's going to persuade you is there., and you are missing the point of my initial post. The point is existing raids get something desirable, and easy mode raiders get something too. The people that gain from these raids are people just like you incidently, not 2nd class citizens because they cant commit to the existing style of raiding. Read the post from your fellow raiders above, they can appreciate and understand compromise.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it. I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it. People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too. I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet. 2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all. Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre. so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it. I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it. People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too. I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying: Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now. All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had. The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him. That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK. That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted. Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word. he was obviously not talking about vanilla. He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic. read again. 'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers ' Clearly you need an easy mode for reading comprehension because the specific post is about how WoW's gear treadmill gave it an organic easy and hard mode. The sentence you're quoting isn't even in the specific post I'm responding to and not relevant to the topic at hand. It's from a completely different post. you do know about timewalking dont you? Dude. Like slow down and follow the conversational exchange before posting. The actual discussion plays out like this. Blaeys: WoW is seen as the gold standard of raids and it has easy mode. GW2 should have easy mode too.Me: WoW is seen as the gold standard because a decade ago it released iconic raid after iconic raid that were iconic in large part because of their difficulty.Blaeys: Those bosses had an organic built in difficulty curve because of how gear works in that game.Me: That's not how the gear treadmill works. You: TIMEWALKING It's also really funny how everyone here keeps bringing up WoW's raids when the number of people playing on the most popular private servers dedicated to faithfully recreating the vanilla WoW experience dwarfs the current number for the live game. Even after all the accessiblity and easy mode raids, far more people are going way out of their way to play the inaccessible version. I'm guessing you slept through all the Nostalrius controversy last year when millions of current and ex-WoW players were begging Blizzard to release legitimate legacy Vanilla WoW servers. I'm also guessing you're the type of person who is always arguing against official Blizzard operated legacy servers. I play on a vanilla WOTLK server. lets assume he was not talking about vanilla bosses through timewalking. I was also raiding in vanilla, and the gear treadmill did indeed mean that MC and Tier 2 eventually became an AOE fest as did AQ40 at the end. Remember mc 40 pugs?

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now. All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had. The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him. That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK. That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted. Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word. he was obviously not talking about vanilla. He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic. read again. 'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers ' Clearly you need an easy mode for reading comprehension because the specific post is about how WoW's gear treadmill gave it an organic easy and hard mode. The sentence you're quoting isn't even in the specific post I'm responding to and not relevant to the topic at hand. It's from a completely different post.you do know about timewalking dont you?

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now. All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had. The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him. That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK. That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted. Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word. he was obviously not talking about vanilla. He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic. read again. 'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers '

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now. All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had. The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him. That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK. That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted. Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up. raid selling is a crutch, but no this won't work, raiders love prestige and the idea they do content others cant access , they yearn for it.

raids in its current form drive out this behaviour, fractals do not, so you adjust accordingly which is a good thing. Many raiders do not/cannot adapt and they cause needless drama. classic example being a fractal that needs say 10k dps, and a group does 20k with the meta doing say 40. going emo for meta there is unnecessary, but these players are addicted to numbers and speed looting not gameplay and it shows.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus theuUnmaker a decade from now. All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had. yep agree here :) Blizzard took this approach deliberately as their way of giving access to the maximum number of players, recognising that the majority are not interested in the wipe/memorise pattern style of gameplay, same for other mmorpg. GW2 has not yet evolved a solution to this problem. No, they took this approach to generate the most playtime and an new carrot to chase after each patch. This has nothing to do with accessibility.wrong, if you have no experience of the transitions that have happened in the mmorpg genre over time, maybe do some research. for example : question to Ghostcrawler (famous lead design at blizzard) who was chatting after moving from wow. Quote:Do you ever regret opening the game up to be more casual? Instead of taking the kind of direction you are with league? Different approaches work for different products, and I don't want to second guess the WoW team. Let's just say that after working on Age of Empires and World of Warcraft for a total of 16 years, it's really refreshing to work on a game where I don't have to worry whether someone's grandmother can pick it up or not.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus theuUnmaker a decade from now. All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.yep agree here :) Blizzard took this approach deliberately as their way of giving access to the maximum number of players, recognising that the majority are not interested in the wipe/memorise pattern style of gameplay, same for other mmorpg. GW2 has not yet evolved a solution to this problem.

Fractals and raids are PvE.Raids were, and still are a side mode No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".Whether something is a side mode depends on both its popularity, and on whether the content is designed with the intention of being meant as a niche or not. So, fractals and dungeons are side modes, although, considering their popularity numbers, they are a less of a side mode than raids. AC, with the 60% completion rate from efficiency could even be argued to have moved from that "side" content to the mainstream. So, t4 fractals and dungeons are side modes, and raids are even more of a side modes than them.the main factor is design intent. Raids are designed for a niche gameplay style whereas dungeons and fractals are designed for the masses.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it. being disingenuous doesn't really achieve anything So you don't have any data to share just an empty claim about the "majority" in other games. Good to know. well quite frankly you are perfectly capable of using google yourself. But to save you a couple klicks, WOW has 70% + lfr to give one example. 70% participation while 50% of the content after expansion release are raids. Pretty bad numbers hmm? And you still need to substract a hefty amount for the non existent convinient features we don't have and won't get.The only thing you show is that there is a huge amount of people that won't touch raids with a ten foot pole regardless of the difficulty and during a content drought. ,actually the report had 70% regularly attended lfr raids (that's not even including normal/mythic etc above that) ie the majority which is the word you just HAD to respond to. do you even know what you are arguing for? ps, even at your '50%' figure that is indeed millions of players playing normal mode in just 1 game, and much more than the harder modes. Understand now? Absolute numbers are completely irrevelant to this discussion, especially with the playerbase difference between WoW and GW2.70% completetion rate was the value in MOP, not the regular players. Most players also play the lower difficulties with twinks so 70% is actually around the real participation over all difficulties. There was even a world boss locked behind raids as you needed the legendary cloak to access it and you still have only 70%. So much content hidden behind raids, so many convinient features and you still dont even reach 3/4 of the players in a game designed to 100% around it. The number will be way worse for GW2 and you have to substract the people that are already raiding.i didn't say completion rate, and I was responding to the challenge about the majority, i was merely saying the majority of players play more easy mode than hard mode in any ANY given mmorpg. Are people really so prepared to deny reality for the sake of protecting a tiny niche that could be so much more? its bizarre considering the history of mmorpg and where they have evolved to.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it. being disingenuous doesn't really achieve anything So you don't have any data to share just an empty claim about the "majority" in other games. Good to know. well quite frankly you are perfectly capable of using google yourself. But to save you a couple klicks, WOW has 70% + lfr to give one example. 70% participation while 50% of the content after expansion release are raids. Pretty bad numbers hmm? And you still need to substract a hefty amount for the non existent convinient features we don't have and won't get.The only thing you show is that there is a huge amount of people that won't touch raids with a ten foot pole regardless of the difficulty and during a content drought.,actually the report had 70% regularly attended lfr raids (that's not even including normal/mythic etc above that) ie the majority which is the word you just HAD to respond to. do you even know what you are arguing for? ps, even at your '50%' figure that is indeed millions of players playing normal mode in just 1 game, and much more than the harder modes. Understand now?