Bladestrom.6425

Raids are PvE so Pver’s have access to Legendary Armor, on top of All Gen 2 Legendary Weapons, why should they get more options when it’s currently balanced across game modes on Legendary Armor Access. Why don’t PvErs get over their selfishness of wanting everything handed to them. Oh see what I did there? I saw nothing, your giving the same raider glasses on argument, if you want legendaries, play niche content that has a particular gaming styler you dont enjoy. That was deliberately side stepping the point. GW is noty a raiding game, Rading in GW is niche, PVE players should have access to long term legendary goals as well, that takes just as long as wvw and pvp. Let it sink in, Raiding is niche in this game in its current format, The majority of the mmorpg world are not teenaagers we have been there and seen that a decade ago, repeating a boss over and over until its in your muscles is dull or annoying for most. chriseggroll.8764 is a perfect example.

PVPers have legendary armor goalsWVWers have legendary armor goalsRaiders have legendary armor goalsPVErs who dont raid have no Legendary armor goals. For those being selfish, get over your own needs and think about those PVERS, they are just as important as the rest of us.

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode. yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

Citation needed. This claim is the major problem of your clique. You can't prove it. Not just because you have no data to support it, but also because it is simply wrong. The rest is irrelevant. The majority play easy content everywhere, that's not a surprise. That's by design as well. no actually every other AAA mmorpg has proven this as fact, including the market leading raiding game with millions of players playing raids every week. your 'citation needed' is not required, the market has already proven such a very long long time ago, despite the same remonstrations by raiders back then. You have inadvertently let out what the problem is however, some raiders fear that normal difficulty raids will affect their niche, and tbh with the attitudes around current raiding they are right to be fearful. here is what the majority hear, I like dark chocolate, Despite the majority preferring milk chocolate they should not get it, either get to like dark chocolate or have nothing.

But again, a poll listed ON the raiding forum, so obviously one that would skew heavily toward players interested in that sort of thing, so if 30% indicated that they raid occasionally, that was the cap, not the baseline. You're doing the same about the inclusion of raids in the first place, of course. No, it's not symmetrical. We don't like the game how it is now because it's lacking something we would like to enjoy playing. You would not like it if it changed because you would be upset that we are happy playing our new mode. You cannot frame that as a symmetrical argument. It's like if you had a burger, and another person did not, and he were given a burger, you claim that it would be a "symmetrical argument" to be as upset at him getting that burger as he was to not have one, even though in either case you'd still have your own burger. Please don't speculate how or why I would feel. You're way off. Not to mention I have repeatedly stated clearly, in more or less correct English, what I think. Again, it is irrelevant if you agree, or even if I am right. Since you don't have any real data to back your position, you cannot possibly expect anyone to take your own opinion as more important or valid than their own. You're only backing up your opinion with your opinion and somehow decide it has some greater value. Come on... Again, I don't claim that my opinion is more valid than anyone else's. It doesn't need to be more valid than anyone else's to justify developing an easy mode. You having the opinion that you would not like an easy mode does not counteract my opinion that there should be one, they are just two distinct viewpoints. If I say chocolate is good and you say chocolate is bad, the net result is not that chocolate is neutral, it's that some people like chocolate, and if chocolate were available, some people would eat it, and other people wouldn't, which is fine. this isn't about opinion, In fact: 1) the majority of players in GW2 do not play Raids in its current form, they do play 5 man instances in its current format - theres are obviously issues going on here a) elitism and b) the must have restrictive builds/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe... gameplay style.2) It has been proven in all the other big AAA mmorpg with raids that the majority will lap up normal mode raids and that the amount of players playing normal will vastly outstrip the niche playing the hardest difficulty. Its the equivalent to members of a sports club that requires regular attendance and a high level of commitment objecting to a club being opened in the area with less exclusive rules and standards, for no other reason than they would feel less special in their club. Acid test, if anet released a normal mode raid tomorrow what would the impact be? Existing raiding impacted - no.New content for anyone including the majority of the player base has new content - yes.

duplicate...........................

No, it's not. It's a part that you value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. Agreed, but not for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. That's by design. And the reason is, because said majority already has plenty of content to enjoy. Raids were added as a specific design catering to specific auditory. So they, too, have something to enjoy in the game. Yup its designed for a niche at the moment and that's what the whole debate is about. Its not mutually exclusive, just because the majority (and raiders btw) have 'plenty of content' does not mean the majority and raiders should not get normal difficulty raids - just like every other AAA mmorpg with raids out there. put it this way, the smart development move is to design for the masses, then tweak for the niche - so count your chickens, that's not a cost effective approach, especially given the precedent out there in other games. The 'majority should not get raids they want because they have lots of stuff, is a very selfish viewpoint btw, your basically arguing to not give the majority maximum value because the niche want to keep it for themselves. Yet Ironically more people playing normal mode would be a lifeblood for tightly tuned raids long term - biting off the nose to spite the face aint smart. The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. Some boses are at that normal and some are above but theres a curve which makes transition possible. U already got what you asking.Wrong, the majority of players do not in fact play raids in GW2, the majority of players do in fact play normal difficulty raids in every other AAA mmorpg. Ipso facto, GW2 raid content is not in fact what the majority want. You should ask yourself why is it you are so threatened by offering a normal mode raid, it would benefit current raid population, it offers more content for all including raiders. So what is it you are trying to protect exactly - self interest perhaps?

No, it's not. It's a part that you value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. Agreed, but not for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. That's by design. And the reason is, because said majority already has plenty of content to enjoy. Raids were added as a specific design catering to specific auditory. So they, too, have something to enjoy in the game.Yup its designed for a niche at the moment and that's what the whole debate is about. Its not mutually exclusive, just because the majority (and raiders btw) have 'plenty of content' does not mean the majority and raiders should not get normal difficulty raids - just like every other AAA mmorpg with raids out there. put it this way, the smart development move is to design for the masses, then tweak for the niche - so count your chickens, that's not a cost effective approach, especially given the precedent out there in other games. The 'majority should not get raids they want because they have lots of stuff, is a very selfish viewpoint btw, your basically arguing to not give the majority maximum value because the niche want to keep it for themselves. Yet Ironically more people playing normal mode would be a lifeblood for tightly tuned raids long term - biting off the nose to spite the face aint smart.

No, it's not. It's a part that you value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. Agreed, but not for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours.No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. The majority are however going to enjoy 10 man raiding in an easier format - proven over many years by all the other AAA mmorpg where the population of normal level raids FAR FAR outstrips the niche that want raids in a tightly tuned format. So maybe you should ask yourself why you feel 'entitled' to argue against provided content for the majority, content that every other AAA mmoprg provides

No, it's not. It's a part that you value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. Agreed, but not for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides.

How can they make it accessible, especially sine it's the players not the game that bars them from entry? The stance I take on that topic, is that people will be people, and will behave as they do now even in an easier version of raids. I.e. bar people from entry by being the only people putting up lfgs and using their standards for the group. simply put they would make it easier. Exact same thing is available in ESO, WOW etc and the 'normal' mode raids are wildly more popular in comparison to the tuned 'hard mode' and that's in games where gear scores are important, GW2 doesn't have that chip on its shoulder to deal with so it can only be better. The bonus to Hared mode raids is that people will naturally gravitate up to hard mode as they get comfortable with fight mechanic is normal mode., so much needed blood there. On top of that Anet get more value for their dev cost for raids, so they are likely to build more. The only people that lose are those trying to keep raiding an exclusive club for selfish reasons, and thats a good thing (same people that complained when WOW introduced normal mode in WOTLk days etc)

its very relevant, players like the dynamics of 10 man instances. Try ESO, WOW, FF many many games have lower tuned isntances that are jam packed with players that dont play top end tuning. What is it you fear?

its very relevant, players like the dynamics of 10 man instances.

Easy raids means higher satisfaction among current players, which is also a worthwhile goal. Not really. It means instant gratification for some players who can't be bothered to do it the intended way. It means nothing, and because of that their satisfaction will wear off just as fast as it came. You'll have sacrificed the intended satisfaction, which should have lasted hundreds of hours, for instant gratification lasting just a few. It's not worthwhile by any stretch. And this answers your "so what". You're taking something of value from those who do value it and you're giving it to those who don't just so they can toy with it for a while and throw it away. You're imagining you'd not be doing that, but you're wrong. People don't behave like you imagine them to. hence why multiple difficulty levels is required, so the majority of players have less tuned 10 man instances, and existing raiders continue to get what they want. I fail to see why. Instanced content of lower difficulties already exists.not 10 man. Its fairly intuitive, the majority do not like current tuning, give the majority 10 man. Current raiders who object to this should ask themselves why is it they feel threatened by giving content that all want to access (including themselves)

Easy raids means higher satisfaction among current players, which is also a worthwhile goal. Not really. It means instant gratification for some players who can't be bothered to do it the intended way. It means nothing, and because of that their satisfaction will wear off just as fast as it came. You'll have sacrificed the intended satisfaction, which should have lasted hundreds of hours, for instant gratification lasting just a few. It's not worthwhile by any stretch. And this answers your "so what". You're taking something of value from those who do value it and you're giving it to those who don't just so they can toy with it for a while and throw it away. You're imagining you'd not be doing that, but you're wrong. People don't behave like you imagine them to.hence why multiple difficulty levels is required, so the majority of players have less tuned 10 man instances, and existing raiders continue to get what they want.

I love a going to a cafe and getting a high quality coffee. I could buy a machine at home to give me the same thing, but then going out to get a coffee wouldnt be as fun anymore :)

truely awesome that Anet are willing to invest time and money engaging more with the forums (a tricky job that can be thankless), shows their heart is in the right place imo.

i don't doubt your skill, but running away is fundamentally relinquishing control. At best its an inferior tactic forced by a weak build, at worst it destroys a teams synergy. Think about tactical efficiency against equally skilled players: 1v1 - poor1vx while under attack - poor1v2 - poorholding point - poortaking point - poorhighly mobile fights - poorchasing down a player - poor all critical to capture the point pvp. if your poor at the above then you are not pulling your weight. What is it good at? aoeing a group of people who all decide they are not going to attack the person who is freely aoeing everyone. What would you do if you saw an ele staff aoing?

running away/being controlled is not a tactic/strategy, its a retreat/potential rout (its the chaser that controls this scenario). Your basically weak and being controlled when you are being chased. Having a build that is so weak it can be manipulated so is not a smart play. The best possible outcome is that you survive to live another day and both waste time equally, worst case is pretty much everything else.

its a parasitical gameplay style that fails in all but 1 scenario - the entire opposition don't notice the glass cannon aoer standing to the side and/or allow him to freely aoe. You should try it, because it actually doesn't fail in most scenarios. By ending fights as quickly as possible you're able to roam pretty effectively. You're also not completely helpless 1v1 because you have so much damage + CC.your 'ending fight quickly as possible' is again assuming the enemy is going to simply let you stand there and aoe. your roaming is basically wandering about looking to attach yourself to a fight, and while you are wandering, the team is 4.v 5. That does happen against even moderately skilled players. In a pug against players who don't recognize staff ele sure. Ask yourself this, your on the other side of the fence, you see a squishy ele staff teeing up with his aoe - what would you do?

its a parasitical gameplay style that fails in all but 1 scenario - the entire opposition don't notice the glass cannon aoer standing to the side and/or allow him to freely aoe. Basically playing PVP using a PVE style.

its a parasitical gameplay style that fails in all but 1 scenario - the entire opposition don't notice the glass cannon aoer standing to the side and/or allow him to freely aoe.

There's a gear cap, that means new players (A) get a feeling of progression as they craft their gear (some vets forget about this pleasure over time)(B) know once they have ascended it will remain relevant so its a rewarding goal to aim for. You could equally argue if exotics was the gear cap then its unfair for players only wearing rare gear (as did happen years ago) A cap has to be somewhere, and making all gear trivial to get is dull and unrewarding. Its also trivial to get ascended these days compared to the past. Another thing to consider that a lot of wvw is zerg v zerg where skill and positional awareness > gear differential, which is perfectly accessible for a player even in rares.