[Golems, Rockdogs and Horrors oh my [Merged]]

1 hour ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Hmm perhaps they wanted to get rid of the effects that wouldn't be helpful in raid content.  Maybe Anet only wants raid players.  I am not sure why, I doubt that elite raid groups spend that much money on the game.  Very stat oriented people, I believe.

Golemancer and Lich runes were once part of raid meta, and still remain very viable runes until today.

My guess is that developers deemed the summonings to be over powered once they are no longer tied to any specific rune set.

[Art Issues: Characters, Weapons, Armor - [Merged]]

I have same concerns about waist armors.

I mean, my male Norn has bigger butt...

[What's the biggest selling feature of SotO if you could only name one thing?]

Isn't it obvious?

Keeping your account up to date.

[Why are Reapers (necromancers) so strong?]

Explained here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUK05ug0Aog

[Please give non WvW Players the Chance to craft Legendary Weapons without forcing People to play it.]

Perhaps that might come true one day -  you might just have to buy the next next mini expansion to access an open map Gift of Battle.

[Enthusiastic Players Stay Silent]

Let's hope this expansion would sell hundreds of thousands of copies like how OP suggests it would.

[Should GW2 efficiency should be used as an inticator for the status of the ingame population ?]

One main usage of that site is to track account value growth per run cycle, especially to check efficiency of bots during multibox farming. Hence the site name.

Don't take it as an index for players who play normally on a single account.

[SoTo more serious tone.]

Right... does the title "Secrets of the Obscure" even sounds serious in the first place?

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Whether it's due to vertical progression or some different issues, but most new players actually leave long before getting through leveling, elite spec unlocking and mastery grind. From what we've heard, a significant number leaves within first weeks, even before hitting level cap.

Exactly, you don't know which issue is it, therefore this point you brought is hardly a proof on either side of the debate.

19 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice also, that those who stay, do that after meeting horizontal progression. Which by your reasoning should mean that the current playerbase does like it.

You assumed wrong.

[The best years of Guild Wars 2 are behind us]

20 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

NCsofts Throne and Liberty (TL) was formerly known as Lineage Eternal. Lineage is an established IP.  TL used the Guild Wars Engine but NCsoft was unhappy with the results and the game engine was changed to Unreal 4 in 2017. And in a 2022 analysts call, NCsoft responded (asked about using Guild Wars 2 know how for TL) "Yes we are strategically making use of that know-how".

So there are still working links between Anet/GW2 and TL. And at the time TL was using the Guild Wars game engine, it would have made sense for Anet, who knew the engine best, to work on that game. And if Anet is still working on TL, they would need unreal engine developers.

Maybe TL is the "another MMORPG" they're working on, or maybe there's a completely different one.

You mean this:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA8D1rzrXkg&t=151

If Anet is directly involved of this game, then be assured the best years of GW2 are truly behind us.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Those that finish the expansion's story, and lapse the sub, just to resub and catch up with the story from patches shortly before next expansion release. This way skipping 90% of the gear grind. Those are the casual players. The very ones you say like vertical progression.

Your view of playerbase seems to be heavily skewed towards the circle with similar preferences to you. This has been clear already when you started claiming most casuals run in ascended (and actively gear up for content).

If it hasn't been obvious enough to you, the game's new player experience leans heavily towards the vertical, which included core Tyria leveling, followed by the hero points to grow elite spec and mastery level system with each expansion. Horizontal progression only becomes available when the base vertical were fulfilled, and players quit right at this point is just a proof of that they are rather avoiding horizontal progression.

Nor did I claim that the majority of casual players run ascended, but it's even more absurd that you claim that most don't. These elements contributes the majority of the game's economy, which centers what casual players who do log in frequently do as a long term goal.

If anything, I'm not the one misleading the game's design philosophy and the playerbase as an excuse out of convenience just to accuse developers here, you are.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

21 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

1/3 = 33%, high compared to other MMOs but still a minority, it's the other 66% that are the casuals (non-raiders).

Vertical progression makes sense for casual players only if it allows them to overgear content (like in WoW for example), it doesn't work in GW2.

If 33% is a minority to you, then the majority are those who possess an account but no longer active. Take note that in GW2, even without a subscription fee requirement, only less than 25% of the total playerbase ever reached 2500 AP for the past 11 years, you can bet less than half of that still log in least 1 day per week. In that sense, a 33% means it almost covers the whole playerbase that's active.

Also keep in mind that this game do let us gradually over-spec older content with each updates, we may not over gear challenging contents yet, but it has becoming a trend for developers to add in extra gears to overpower our characters than originally intended.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

On 7/26/2023 at 10:00 PM, Shuzuru.3651 said:

I'm giving you the fact of the nuance of casual vs the whole playerbase

But I do disagree that casual prefer vertical progression. 

If the logic there is : Casual want easier content, so powercreep, so vertical progression. 

Then I reply that no, because casuals don't want to grind, so yeah casuals want easier content, but by the means of either nerfs or passive powercreep than doesn't require grind.

About the relics, like I said, there is both, but I do agree that the legendary compensation is more prevalent on the topic, for the sake of horizontal progression. 

And about jadebot, there were a bunch of complaints, actually, maybe not as much as relics or ascended gear, but they were there. 

The casual playerbase consists a very diversed veriaty of preferences, I'm not saying that everyone will like the grinding, but in either side of the coin, they prefer this approach over the skill requirement the current horizontal progression system introduces.

Then moving onto the playerbase who do like the grind, if it isn't obvious enough, grinding gold to acquire a legendary remain the most popular activity among casual players who log in on a daily basis.

The mild magnitude of pushbacks over Jade Bot's vertical approach comparing to 2013 is a proof over the shift of tones in the community.

23 hours ago, Reztek.7805 said:

Random players join the game, kill their brain cells by doing farmruns all-day, cry for the lack of "endgame" and then leave for the next hyped MMO. 😉 And in most other MMOs casual players probably never reach the endgame because they can't stand the grind or are bored by playing on deserted maps.

Both types of players are considered casual in this game as neither are investing in its horizontal progression.

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I put it to you that once a player has a single meta build in full Ascended, pursuing legendary equipment is horizontal, not vertical, progression. Legendaries do not have more stats than ascended, but being able to change those stats freely opens up options.

Wrong, by locking himself in geargrinding with one build, the said player are prioritizing vertical progression before horizontal progression. Legendaries are QoL, but never a necessity. Furthermore, this is a game that reward free( or at a fractional cost) ascended gears for players who participates instanced contents at moderate difficulty, the options are already widely available for those who would step above the skill requirement, but remain avoided by the casual playerbase.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

1 hour ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Your point was that "the playerbase want vertical progression". I told you that over the year, every vertical progression added on top of the initial one have been met with very virulent reaction from the community, as a whole. And that the main selling point noted by most of the community is the absence of vertical progression (after the initial one). 

And the current situation, who concern everyone because no one want to regrind the 6th bonus, is another show of my point. Of course, legendary rune owner are more invested because in this case, it kinda break the "legendary promise", but it concerns everyone. 

Let me correct you here: casual players prefer vertical progression. And before you mistook me for an vertical progression advocate, I have a long history of speaking against changes in this direction.

But we no longer live in 2013, the playerbase has moved on (and severely aging), given the braindrain going on across all game modes, it's not realistic to expect the current horizontal model to sustain.

If you have read the threads, the reaction so far only centers about compensating legendary owners, some of whom I find ironic for they've also been speaking against horizontal progression for the past several years. If adding vertical progression element is really that much of an issue, our playerbase would have already revolt at Jadebot, in which we didn't.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

3 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

They don't. Raiders are a minority of the playerbase, in every MMO.

A LoTRO community manager once said that raiders+pvpers are less than 10% of the playerbase yet they write the overwhelming majority of forum posts. Blizzard said that during vanilla less than 5% of the players ever set foot in a raid, and only 1% cleared the last vanilla tier (Naxxramas), yet if you were on reddit when WoW Classic launched, it would seem to you everyone was raiding Naxx back then.

It depends on which MMO you're referring to:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQhnJYXXUAgm23T?format=png&name=4096x4096

In terms FF14 it hangs around 1/3 of the player base, which we can safely assume it almost account all of its sustained playerbase (those who kept playing after story). In general casual players are less detered by level/gearscore requirement in instanced contents compared to player skill.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

5 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Also, you're the one out of touch with the community, as the horizontal progression is the main reason why a large part of the community plays the game. Never heard "I like this game, because I can do a big break and then return and do the lastest content without grinding"? I heard it thousands of time, that's the most frequent argument that's come up with veteran players

Also, all the precedent fiasco + this one, should tell you the vertical progression is not welcome in the mind of the community. 

You have completely missed the point here. An easy vertical progression element is still a vertical one. The game clearly designed an easy vertical as a draw, but that does not necessarily meant the horizontal progression elements are getting to them. And let's not forget the obvious fact that grinding legendary gear remain the most popular "long term goal" of the casual community.

So far the fiascos are veteran players who grinded their legendary runes asking for compensation, they're obviously frequent grinders, and hardly represent the community at large.

 

[End game pve is incredibly gatekept and lacks player population]

11 hours ago, trunks.5249 said:

to be honest i think people might be afraid too. i have been doing  a lot of paths in dungeons lately but when i go lfg  a lot of the time no one has a party going. so i will start a party its full with in 5 min and a lot of times people will ask if i will do more with them. this is an all day thing because i will do the 8 different runs for 5 gold a few time a day

You mistook lazy for fear.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

56 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, yes, i heard those very same arguments before, only then they were about how every MMORPG player likes raiding. Turns out that turned out very far from the truth.

I have a news for you, in these MMOs, raid do succeed on their casual playerbase because they have a vertical progression system.

Again, you need to understand what exactly is a horizontal progression before throwing these accusations around, your claims continues to contradict your points.

It seems to me your issue isn't about vertical or horizontal progression, but instead just want everything easy for yourself.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

37 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which Diablo game? Haven't seen D4 yet (although i doubt it's any different, tbh), but in DIII for example the difference of having a complementary build and gear vs just having good gear can result in 10k times the damage (or greater). Diablo is probably the worst example you could have used here, because it has exactly the very issue i am arguing against.

You still don't get vertical progression do you? All Diablo games have complementary builds, it's irrelevant because minimal skill gap is involved as everyone overpowers the boss after sufficient grinding at end game.

Again, you'll never have GW2's raid or DE issue in a Diablo game.

 

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm fully aware that most players will never be able to achieve those goals (or at least not fully, because obtaining one, two or even three legendary items is not beyond capability of casual players). But they can pursue them, and one of major reasons why they can is because those goals don't keep running away from them like they would in case of vertical progression system.

The process of pursuing them purely by gold and resource grinding alone, omitting contents with no development in understanding the game's buildcrafting and skillcrafting, is exactly playing the game solely in its vertical progression element, while skipping horizontal ones.

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Is this why a lot of hardcore players ask for gear inspect option? In hardcore content, no less (where the most casually minded players are already filtered out by virtue of not applying)? That "great significant portion" is probably not as big as you think. And unlikely to be even close to majority.

I guess you don't frequent instanced contents much, gear inspection were introduced as a proof that the contender knows the buildcraft of his own role. Challenge grade contents were never meant for casual players, if there is a lack of hardcore players, it only means players are no longer heavily invested with this game.

Furthermore, you're clearly out of touch with the playerbase for claiming what's not close to the majority, either ask around any daily players in any casual guild on whether if they are currently working on a legendary, or simply check out some of the biggest MMO today (including ones from NC Soft) ‐ they are all running on a vertical progression system.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

17 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Not just skill gap. Engagement with build gap. At one point ANet stated that a significant number of players didnt even bother to select traits (and others still did not choose traits that contributed meaningfully to their build). If more complexity is added, complexity that will enable top end players to push their performance even higher, complexity that other players who already find selecting traits to be too complex to bother with, then the gap between top performers and lower end performers is likely to increase.

Having the know-how to build a character is part of a player skill.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

17 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They were not. If you think so, it just means you completely misunderstood what i was saying.

Hint: i was advocating for changes that would bring up the bottom without increasing the top. Mostly by removing bad choices from consideration, or minimizing their impact. In the system we have now, introducing elements of vertical progression just makes the matter worse, not better.

Which is exactly what a vertical system does:

Where the powers of a player isn't determined by skill rotation or built craft, but gearscore and character level - a hard system which eliminate skill factors, which is then filtered by the system as a requirement of entry where everyone will grind for as a long term goal.

You won't have DE issue in a Diablo game.

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Offering players even more choices to get their build wrong is not helping casuals. It's harming them.

So far the only additional complexity it brings is the extra gear slot. Where in the current rune system, we need to calculate around trade offs between stats and effect bonus, with the price of making a mistake is swapping off the entire rune set. Neither system is more or less new player friendly.

 

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And for "casual players want vertical progression", i'd really like you to give me a  source for that, because i just don't see it. I mean, significant part of casual playerbase still doesn't seem to run in ascended, so if you'd try to claim they might want even higher gear tiers, i'd find that hard to believe.

Funny coming from someone who claim the majority of the casual playerbase wants legendary armor.

A great significant portion of casual players who still playing after story do possess ascended gears, and grinding for legendary equipment remain the most common long term goal for them today.

 

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

56 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If you were actually reading what i wrote, you'd realize i definitely never advocated this. The current system is structured in such a way that powercreep helps those that are already at higher levels of the chart. It does nothing for those at the bottom. As such, it makes content easier for those for whom that content was already easy, but does not help at all those that found it to be too difficult. If anything, by increasing the gap between the bottom, average and top, it creates even bigger issues as Anet keeps adjusting balance to the new situation (see DE case).

You're talking skill gap, a natural trait of a horizontal progression system. Which is exactly why anet increasingly alternating the course onto a vertical progression system where the attention gradually shift onto gearscoring. The new relic system will inevitably introduce a new grind, but the combination is still a universal stat boost despite of skill level and will inevitably overpower existing challenge contents.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If the design of this system went in the direction i was advocating, the runes would not be split into 6 runes and a relic, but would be compressed into a singular rune.

You weren't advocating a rune system, but the elements you were advocating for the past several years were all part of a vertical progression system.

 

[I just realised... (yet another relics rant)]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, because obtaining somethng you've already spent over 2000 gold on beforehand definitely qualifies as getting it for "free".

Not true, ever since the legendary armoury most of those who made legendary runes have gotten around 60%-80%+ of their gold back by selling their old runes.

Before that, additional cost inflicted by each balance patch for account wide build swap isn't something new. The new system actually address this that players still sticking to ascended armor with exotic runes will no longer need to swap entire runesets for each change.

Furthermore, It's not like players who has made their 6th or 7th legendary rune are going to be significantly hindered by the additional cost of resources. These are all end-game accounts filled with legendaries.

I have 7 legendary runes, and despite my distaste of the new direction, relics are rather minor annoyance at best.

Casual players wants vertical progression because they could no longer afford the player skill requirement for horizontal ones. Therefore by popular demand, elements of gear grinding will gradually be added to provide a long term goal so they can powercreep without needing to learn skillcrafting. You have long been the advocate of easy modes such as this, be careful what you wish for.