Jeran.6850

Sorry, but thief abilities, especially its steath abilities, have been a problem since game release. What do you mean "leave thief alone"? Why should anyone stop asking for changes, just because you (and like-minded people) think its fine? And that ranger build. Well, im sure it doesnt "perma-stun" only thiefs. I guess it is even less of a problem for thiefs, because the skills applying "it" are in need for a visible target mostly, and the ones that are not: sorry, keep some distance then, every other class would better have to, as well. Really, this is funny. A thief crying that there is a build that makes him wish he would have more stunbreakes, and THATS a problem.Stealth? No, no problem (says the thief).

Cool. The question is: do you understand why? And do you think it actually has a lot to do with this thread, which is about stealth? Even someone that doesnt pvp knows why, but as you are the one who knows better than me anyway ...why spend energy to explain. Is it stealth related? What do i know, but most possibly, yes---so indeed, there is something related to the topic. A class is strong at roaming while being a sad pile of trash in group play. So sure, lets make it garbage in roaming too and call it a day, solid idea.There are other strong roaming classes that aren't nearly as useless in zerg settings, not sure what exactly you're trying to say here. That an assassin-like class is strong at picking off single targets? WHAT?! No other mmorpg in existance ever done it, this is so unexpected! So... saying the strongest roaming class since 2013 (?) is thief, is somehow wrong because its not that good in group play? Other games are irrelevant to a topic in the GW2-forum AT ALL, dear man/woman/diverse person. You're saying that as if thief is the only class that can deal "5k+ damage on a medium armor target" which isn't even remotely close to being correct.Also you use "not a single" phrase probably to make a bigger impact in what you're saying, but you literally need to exclude "that single" class for that to somewhat make sense. Except neither does rev. And Ranger doesn't really need it for the most part. Aaaand engi uses it as an "oh-kitten" button or to wait out the cooldowns instead of actually using it while fighting/roaming. On the contrary, thief uses it to activate its class mechanic for damage. Its the still the class that most easily can have a very high impact OR leave out completely unharmed, if they chose to do so.I also didnt mention "rev" in what you quoted? I think I'm lost a bit here -so is this a thread about invisibility or a place for you to vent about overal thief playstyle? I am lost with your reply to. But didnt you say, thief uses "it" (stealth) as a class mechanic for damage? Maybe there is something i said if it comes to thiefs in WvW, that is ....somehow..... actually, related to the topic? Yup. Ok, wont give you that easy "yup" back in your face.

Me? Im sorry, but are you thinking of yourself as an thief player? A skillfull one? Why dont you provide a non edited "lengthy" (whatever...) video displaying what you are NOT able to to, will you please?

Hello friend, you like to play some kind of "devils advocate", which i am usually fine with, but... if anything about my opinion about "these builds" isnt very clear know, i dont know what else to say. Of course I am not fine with these builds, even though i may be biased (everyone in this forum is somehow, so what). There isnt the slightest glimpse of a chance, that Arenanet would ever adress the problems that will arise, if the downstate will be removed. Stealth is a topic that had been talked about YEARS before the first "no downstate"-event, but Arenanet refuse to change the mechanic. There are so many things that are wrong, and its not only on the "roamer" side of things. Why does Firebrands do HAVE to have access to waterfields, and even more condition clear than on guardian (with trooper rune)?Why is stance-sharing so weak on Soulbeasts in comparison to tempests aura share?Why is it still possible for a warrior to jump into 50+ people, disabling siege, getting out unharmed - literally invincible, undefeatable, for 10+ seconds.Why does ranger longbow 5 doesnt have a line-of-sight-requirement?Why can rev skills teleport their character through obstacles? No, i am not ok with these builds.I dont believe Arenanet will adjust anything the way it should, if the downstate will be removed permanently. So i want it to stay, for now. Btw, i did say several times, that i want to keep the downstate, but change the downstate abilitys, the hp in downstate and the rally mechanic.

This is a good idea, too. No it really isnt. You people should try to play a thief seriously yourselves before trying to make or agree to suggestions like this and realize its not as easy as you think. With all the boonrips available that thief would have no stealth ever. Yet we have things like core necs with 50 life force bars being sustained by fb's and eles but that's A-OK. I really think most complains about stealth comes from blobbers. FYI Thieves are the ONLY class severely hurt by several mechanic in WvW. But do you care ? No you dont ! Theyre hurt by 2 different types of stealth traps that apply 30 seconds revealTheyre hurt by fighting in range of a sentry that adds 30 seconds reveal.Theyre hurt by Every tower radar with a massive range making them not fight in that area,Forever reveal.Running with a blob that tries a upgraded tower with radar? What are you even doing there,youre useless,go home because youl be revealed forever.On desert bl theres an entire area where youre revealed Forever,spanning from NW to NE. Now for a second,have a thought about how you would feel if any of these mechanics would,instead of adding reveal. Making it so you cant use your blocks/aegis or your invulns. Would you like this ? Nope. Think about hitting a Fully upgraded tower with radar with your blob,and that radar would make it so all of you cant use your blocks/aegis or invulns,pretty lame right ? Thats how thieves already feel. Then add people Still complaining for you to be nerfed while all these added mechanics are ingame already. We have ingame specs able to plant reveals on them,we have specs that can hard counter them aswell. Stop,complaining. Learn,to play. Another FYI i used to be a main warri with a massive hate against thief,saying how broken and easy to play they are. Untill i played it myself and realized its one of the most difficult classes to play well....wow. So lets see...the role of thief in pvp can not be fullfilled by any other class, no matter what build. Its the only class role which cant be replaced by anything, while for every other role, there are several classes, that are (almost) as good as the next one. Thiefs still complain. In WvW, there is no doubt what class is king of roaming, since the start of the game. Its thief. But they complain. About other classes have stealth, to. Other classes have evade-frames, to. Other classes have high mobility, to (even when it requires them to take rune of speed for at least some mobility). Thief players love to point out their low hp as a justification why a backstab (or what ever) SHOULD lead to 5k+ damage on a medium armor target with all defensive boons up on the opponent (while there is the initiative system still in play of course, instead of actual weapon skill cd`s), and how stealth is useless infight...yet you and i can see, that each and every actual usefull roaming build uses stealth to different degrees. Thief do. Ranger do. Mesmer do. And also Engineers.Aside of warrior (and their pretty stupid class mechanics available), there isnt a single "roamer" that doesnt take advantage out of having access to stealth somehow.... So, what again, makes thiefs so special, when it comes to how THEY are so heavily effected, by traps, and watchtowers, but no other "roaming" class? Highest stealth access, highest mobility, very high evades frames, laughable easy to achive trait inbound high damage modifiers.... the ini system... the stupid shortbow 5 thing.. Yeah. Clearly, its not the thiefs that should learn to play in 2020.

Playing something like thief or ranger, picking a target out of ten people and, as you say, downing THAT target (more than once), is not a 1v10. Its just you, taking advantage of an unbalanced class (s build). Looking at the name "Laela Blackbird", i am pretty sure you do play ranger...Anyway, what you picture here is one of the reasons to KEEP the downstate, not to remove it.

There shouldnt be any class, no matter the build or individual "skill", that can win 1v5 while the downstate is in the game. For sure, when these builds win 1v10 without the downstate, it shows its NOT the downstate, but these builds, that are a problem. Its such a twisted mindset, i do not know how to even guess whats going on in these peoples minds, and if there is any logic behind. I am tempted to make a "Hitler-argument" about that kind of mindset, but will not, because... you know.. of course you people want "IT" to be removed just for a better world. Your intent is completely pure and immaculate, not selfish and blindsided, or arrogant (to say the least) at all. I am german, but i have jewish ancestors btw... a bad argument is still just a bad argument, no matter the "scale", just have to say it. You want the downstate removed, because without it, on the class/build you play, you can win1v10? Thats your argument?Oh, yes. I forgot. You just have "skill". Its not what you play, not at all. There is even that guy/girl not shying away from wanting the downstate to be removed, because he/she wants the ability to pick out ANY target out of a 50+ squad, and HAVE it to die no matter what, because he/she just wants that superpower so badly... while of course playing something that doesnt have to contribute anything to their build aside of their personal admires (most likely, there is stealth and/or superior range involved) - in opposition to "zerg"-builds, that all dedicate to group interactions(aside of staff weaver, sadly). I really wonder how you people are not ashamed of yourselfs, for asking Arenanet to make cheese-play the most effectiv in wvw overall -while it already is in roaming.

that's the deal. if no downstate stays an event, at least make downstate balanced and enjoyable. Thumbs up to you! :.)

have to add: keep it, but adjust it. Equalize the hp, the skills (yes, even vapor form^^). make rezzing only possible on a 1/1 basis. remove the KITTEN rally mechanic in every aspect. I think, then we will be fine.

It is still an argument that has to be taken seriously, even though i agree with you: its more a balance problem, than a downstate (or not) problem. Why do i think so? Because a rework of the ele class, especially for (p) staff weaver, one that will make it possible to not loose its (already questionable) impact, but enhancing its (staff, this is about staff) survivability overall, will, by a very high chance, lead to high damage "super bunker" builds on other weapon sets, like d/d, or d/f. The rework of the staff abilities (which seem to be the only logical thing to do, to prevent high damage bunker builds for weaver/ele) is an ever ongoing topic in the ele subforum, since PoF, and even before. Arenanet doesnt listen to us, not at all. I doubt they can handle the "abnormity" they created, the weaver, in the case the downstate will be removed, instead they will make things even worse for us,or maybe even, and not very unlikely, for "you people". As this is not a weaver/ele talk thing, but a downstate topic (and with the things i said above): i made an example of why we better keep the downstate. I do main ele, but to various degrees, i also do play every other class except mesmer, in very different aspect of the gamemode, from "roaming" to (small) guild group runs, to largescale. I do NOT only largescale with a staff weaver- the reasons i am against the removal of the downstate are not based on my ability to perform good on staff weaver alone(and i do not PvE, just in case someones crawling out of the wood now...). But... i am getting a little bit tired to repeat every agument ever made in the many, many topics made up about the "no downstate", in the sense of why it would be better to keep it. Thanks for your reply.

i cant disagree on this. There are people enyoing the event, there is no doubt. i did have a short conversation with one my guild members about the event. His argument why he likes it, was, that the "rallybots" are erased from the equation... i tried to explain, how it will be literaly impossible to play a large scale damage based staff weaver without the downstate, telling him about the traits i have to pick, the rotation (and why), and the stats...knowing, that he is a "part time" elementalist to.He was SO amazed about my low HP (14k) so impressed by my average "damage number" (which is, all in all, around 4k power.... and there is my 80% crit change,100 % with fury, too, which is a boon easy to achieve), or my about 260% ferocity when attuned to air.... i ask him, what class he plays during the " no downstate"-event, and his reply was - he likes to play his mesmer, his ele isnt worth the trouble.

I want to ad something here to my previous comment. Everyone, that is at least a reader of this subforum, and even moreso, a reader of the PvP subforum, do know, that there is a lot of "dislike" to bunker builds, or stalemate build...you could even call them "troll" builds in some cases. And i do agree. On the other side, i dont understand why rev, thief, holo/scrapper, ranger, warrior and the so called "destroyed" mesmers all can build themselfs as a glass/actually non glass build going into a at least 1v2, sometimes 1v4, or even 1v5...then moaning and crying, and want it to be removed, what for some classes, is their only choice to not immedietly die- a bunker, maybe even a minstrel one. Its so irritating. What are your expectations, if the downstate will be removed? Everyone will play the game as before, ALLOWING your stealth abusing 10 peoples guild group to destroy the backlines of a 30, 40, 50 people opposing group? What is in your mind by asking this? Dont you think, squad players does already figured out how to build their groups if the downstate will be removed? Its only the roamers/guild group players, that have "a plan", about the changes that will then have to come, but NOT the already stronger group, even if they are only "stronger" by their numbers? People asking for the removal of the downstate LOVE to point a finger at the february damage nerf to make it somehow fit to their agenda, while asking to remove minstrels and trailblazers, even dire, and with a good chance even aphotecary... (because why not next asking for that, condi druid takes good use of it...), and, after that is done, maybe soldiers (and thats a joke that is not to far to become a reallity) but never EVER would ask Arenanet to make it impossible for thief, mesmer, ranger, engineer (well Holo most likely), and warrior, to take the opposite of the coin removed: berserker. As if that stat set is NOT as much a problem with some certain classes, now, and moreso without a downstate. Personal note: i dont run any minstrel build. I dont run any trailblaizer build.

And the same is on the other side . It MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The opportunities are the same for both sides . Now if you want to go run around with a small group and complain every time you get wrecked but a bigger group , that's not an issue with rally , downstate or outnumber. The problem is you don't know how to pick your fights . rally is an issue even for balanced bus fights. the first bus that kills take the advantage since the ressources the other bus spent in downing some target gets negated.it is the snowball effect. never have i seen a bus getting wrecked and then turing the tide with less players. it is less apparent now because you can rally bot only one player per kill and not 5 like before. but it is still a minor advantage one of the 2 bus will get.also it is not like you can always escape from a larger group everytime you encounter one. you are often forced to fight or lose more territory. at least with no downstate you can try a suicide move and reduce considerably the enemy bus with whats left of your group because you know that each kill will count instead of having them getting revived instantly because your mates are dying.also, kills give points, downed don't. a server with a smaller population will be able to get more points while it does not matter for the bigger one since they are big enough to kill downed fast in the sea of AOEs. the thing is WvW will never have perfectly balanced fight. groups are never the same size or when they are there is a high chance of a +1.wdowned state always favoured the bigger group. even in a 1v2 scenario the solo player will have to deal with another health bar + the downed dps + his friend hitting you or reviving the downed.Its amazing how you deny the reality of the recent event, which is that at any time the opposing group is bigger, it makes the enemy not even try. Are there some people that does? Are there some guild that (with the help of steath abuse) manage to win outnumbered? Yes, could have happended. Somewhere. Overall, what i see is that any strategy is completely dumbstered in favor of numbers, roaming was even more "dead", class diversity was even more restricted, hiding behind "accs" was more common than even before. The wish for removing the downstate by a certain type of playerbase (which is still a minority by the way), will completely backfire, IF the downstate will be removed...i really wonder how these people can not already see it?

...no...the language trap again. Its not excluding (thief and mesmer). Sorry.

This is an old and worn out argument, all too often seemingly perpetuated by those who play squad oriented classes, who have other advantages that are denied Rangers but I don't expect to change anybody's opinion here, especially since we are drifting pretty far afield from the OP's topic. Off the top of my head I would say that Spellbreakers are a kitten to fight, and have been thoroughly demolished by some power heralds, and I absolutely hate mirages, completely aside from Deadeyes. I personally doubt that they are all building their comps just to counter play me or my fellow rangers. I wish you well and hope that your time in WvW is fruitful rather than frustrating. If you find me on the field of battle, I'm sure I will contribute a bag or 2 to your in game wealth accumulation. Hello there, im late with my reply. That is, because i set myself to a pause-mode - i feel, i get much to angry lately in this forum, for pretty childish to not any reasons at all(its a computer-game, still).So, why do i want to reply now? Because, in what i quoted, there is an old and worn argument included , no, not even an argument - its an assumption -that someone thinking rangers do have a kind of advantage against everyone excluding thief (and, to a lesser degree, mesmer) MUST be someone playing in squads exclusivly. Believe me, or not: i rarely do join squads these days, i actually stopped to do so 2 month after PoF. Have i been a large scale player before PoF? Yes.But i also did join my small guild(s) runs every evening, and while doing so, i spent a lot of time playing my own Soulbeast then, and Druid recently. I will try to be polite here, i really do. But bringing up large scale "demands" for ranger is way much more behind the topic, then mentioning that, in a WvW without downstate, its good that there is counterplay, at least if people are aware of their abilities, and willing to change your class build accordingly, as otherwise, indeed, the longbow range alone (not even mentioning what else more they have on the table), would bring to much safety, to much opportunity, to much "easy" wins for ranger. I really think, i wasnt away from the topic, and i wasnt...well... (google have to help me out) condescending. Fun fact: i always was , and still am, in defence of our rangers when doing guild runs, against the opinion of our guild leader. I always do so, even as an ele main. Why?Because it is a strong class, and in some way, maybe even to strong.But not in large scale, with a longbow, yes. Thank you for your kind wishes, i hope its going well for you to.

Of course there is counterplay - if not, LB ranger would be the prime predator of WvW (and PvP). If not by their stealth/boon/mobility/AI effects/blocks and semi-invulnerabilities access--- at least their massive 1850 range would make them way op. No? So, whats your message. Without activating a single skill (rapid fire), you couldnt kill thiefs? Killing thiefs is not a ranger problem (by your one words), its a problem for everyone else, if not dedicating their build to not only survive, but eventually even KILL the thief.Doesnt change that LB ranger has QUITE some unfair advantage against everyone else, if not dedicated builded for counterplay.

I want to thank you for your reply. I feel, we are on the most possible opposing sides if its about argumenting over the downstate,but it feels very good to see, that it is still possible to be.. still a kind a person, with an open mind. So, thanks again

Sorry, you know us much as everyone else why three certain classes are known to be the best roaming classes. They do have one thing in common: stealth access.Are there alternative builds for these classes? Sure, there are. Maybe as much/almost as much effective, but surely more.... exhausting (have to google that word^^). There is a reason why the already existing alternative builds are not commonly played, and the reason for sure ist NOT, that "you" (the players of this three classes) dont want to be even more... hm. Fearsome.

...well, that last sentence. Skip it, i dont know how to edit.

From what i experienced yesterday, and today playing in the morning hours (before i have to get to work), it seems the major effect of the no downstate-event is discouraging the outnumbered side even more. It feels bad to see, that at first, there have been about 12 defenders against our 20+ group today (i wasnt in the squad or in ts, tho thats a guess), defending their t3 tower. They died, we take it, we move on to the next t3 tower... about 8 defenders now. We take it.We break the walls of their t3 keep immediatly after, and...yes - now 4 brave people tried to defend it. Needless to say, we take the keep (and everyting else remaining).It feels sad, shallow, and extremely boring. People can say now, that the same can happen with the downstate in the game. But i have never seen such a lack of..."will" to even try. The "no downstate" makes inequalities even worse, from outnumbering to class abilities (like stealth for example). And the instant death obviously does have a negative effect...of beeing helpless, and and that is an impotant thing in an mmo - somehow alone.Of course, everyone can change their gameplay. That they can change their armor to one side or the other (glass cannon versus full bunker at the extremes), take different runes and/or sigils, change their traitlines to, again, one side or the other accordingly... or even change their class. Who, in their right mind, do want a WvW, where everyone that is "roaming" is a glass cannon (with stealth, if possible), and everyone doing "largescale" is a (at least semi-) bunker? Whats the win for both side of the argument?

Not that a disagree with your 1:1 ress suggestion, but i just realiazed your signature... what is it now, mesmer is trash, or mesmer doing just fine, with our without downstate?

Its even worse. There are classes that can quite easily get into a 1v3, or even more, and still get kills, unharmed. That argument of outnumbered fights doesnt even fit them, and its get worse and worse knowing, that these days most roamers run in (mostly guild) groups.Their argument is that its unfair that 5 people can press "f" on a downie they downed by a class/build already able to win 1v3, but they do run 3+ people still, most likely on ts, which of course ALL combine their damage on a single set target here ... then come to the forum complaining its the rezzing that is unfair.

I have to comment this. No, not the "git gud" part that much (of course you do very well on ele, what else is there to be expected...). What did you play? Cele Tempest or Fire Weave, or...? And have you been able to not only "hold your ground", but actually kill someone, by like a 50% chance? Anyhow... Its you mentioning the "Concerns about Elementalist"-Thread. That thread is maybe the biggest class-relevant thread ever made. Its going on almost exactly for two years now (August 16. 2018 to August 14. 2020), with 853 replies, and 43k views. As far as i remember, Arenanet showed up somewhere around the end of August 2018, to tell the ele community how much they care (about our concerns), to then stay (almost) dead silent. Even more so, some pretty hefty nerfs had been given to the class during these two years - stab removed on stance use, heal coefficients lowered, the changes to the arcane traitline.. and many more, on top of the already existing, most unfair nerf to their signature skill (so to say), Meteorshower, which, albeit an rng skill, and its humongous cast time (while rooted), gets its damage lowered by 10% from the second hit, and additional 10% damage less for each and every Meteor hit following. As far as i know, its the only skill in the game that rewards opponents to NOT react to something, that once was the among the most important area-denial skills in the game - but funny enough, even if you do ZERO damage with a Meteor hit (taken up by the scourges shared barrier for example), the ele surely have still to eat the retal-damage of ALL HITS.Thats how much Arenanet cares about our concerns, and how they listen. You say Arenanet will do a rework, if the downstate will be removed? I highly doubt it, and i am sure, most ele players doubt that too.

erase the "not" in the last sentence, then it will make more sense....

You should try a staff build like this.There's a few big hits there, I think there's a 14k prolly about 50s in.Technically ele can stealth by smoke field in water and blasting from land, cellofrag also showed it in one of his older videos. If they are also near npc which have a smoke field they could blast those too which is pretty neat. There's actually a few crazy people running around on staff ele roaming. I know it may be a little off topic but it was just something that was interesting to me. Hello there, i appreciate your post (really, i do), but i am also sure you know that i wasnt talking about 1v2 staff weaver meme builds...when watching that video, there have been an incedible amount of chanelled skills that wasnt interrupted. I do feel a little silly/sorry to mention it, but with pofs mirage, it was established that an reaction time of a quarter of a second should be the normality, something everyone should be able to handle, and to react to.....(that is what mesmer and thief players said...not me).The guys/girls in that video? They dont even react to skills taking 3/4 seconds to execute (while beeing forced to stand still on the ele side). And in all honesty, Cellofrag brought more harm than good, if its about the reputation of the elementalist class, making it look all to easy (i even was in its "1v100" youtube video, on the opposing side, at bay ... what a garbage nonsense. It was just clickbait, no substance at all.Sadly, one of the last actually remaining "above average" ele player, Solemn, also tries (seemingly) to convince everyone, that ele is a low skill, high reward class.. completely negating, that, as much as with Cellofrag, maybe only 5% (that is a guess, its likely even less) of ALL elementalist players in the game could not ever reach their level of gameplay.