[I feel screwed over by the Legendary Armory [Merged]]

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I totally agree that it would be a far from ideal or typical raider who does what I suggest. Likewise, its not a typical wvw player who is going to run in circles around the monuments as was suggested. Therefore, the arguments are equal. That is, both are the minimal effeort paths for each game mode: a lazy raider who joins raids without being properly prepared in hopes of getting carried for kills would eventually get a set of armor but its not efficient and any real raider would resent them to say the least. Likewise, a lazy wvw and pvp player who goes in unprepared in hopes of getting carried which will eventually lead to enough stuff to get a set of armor from pvp and/or wvw, but will not be very popular with the community/server. I made my argument carefully. You just seem unprepared to accept the fact.

My argument wasn’t about “how people choose to do a particular mode” but “how a particular mode functions”. In WvW, the bare minimum effort is to do something to reset the timer. Anything else done in between that time does not increase your pip gain for that tick. 
 

There is a difference between acquiring legendary armor through raids compared to sPvP and WvW. This is not a position that I will budge on. 

[I feel screwed over by the Legendary Armory [Merged]]

2 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Been doing training raids lately, 0 LI so far xD The trainers arent trying to finish the boss encounter, but rather showing off the mechanics. Once all mechanics are shown they do some more runs but none have been truly done.

 

They are also forgetting is that one cannot truly work on both raid and wvw armor at the same time. One has to max out wvw pips every week and that takes a long time every day. I dont think ive reached max pips ever in wvw, due to only playing an hour or two a day in that mode, if that.

It does take awhile. I believe that I was spending an entire day to hit the weekly cap when I farmed the armor and ring. It wasn’t the most enjoyable experience. 

[I feel screwed over by the Legendary Armory [Merged]]

 

Be careful about countering someone's argument just for the sake of countering it as one that does this tends to tunnel and it just weakens their position.

 

53 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Not exactly. You are miss-representing my argument. That is, my argument is that you Don't need weekly clears to get 150 LI and perfected envoy armor. Just like in wvw you dont need full pips each week. In raids, you dont have to really learn rotations or even know the encounters well. I run raids and have done ALLOT of WvW. I KNOW people often join training and practice runs who dont have good rotations or know the mechanics well, but they still get kills on the bosses cause if they join and no one kicks them and the kill happens they get credit. No actual skill required. However, obviously this is not efficient and not necessarily healthy for the raiding but its perfectly doable. In other words, a patient person who wants perfected envoy doesnt need any of the skill you mention. They do, however, at least have to be able to get cairn greens done for envoy 2, as I said.

 

Similarly, in wvw or pvp one will be more efficient and will be a "healthier" part of the WvW scene if they learn a proper build, learn about WvW strats, etc, however, as you argue none of that is "Required". Anyone can just run in circles if they are willing to get killed some times and take a TON of time each week for many many weeks.

 

As I said, the argument that raid armor takes allot of dedicated learning, etc but wvw and pvp doesn't is false.

 

WvW and sPvP require no skill level to make progress towards the legendary armor.  A brand new player can go straight to either and make progress.  This is due to sPvP only requiring the player be in the match and pips being rewarded win or lose.  For WvW, it's just a matter of maintaining participation which is fairly easy to do and doesn't require you to be active at all until you need to reset the timer.  Raids, on the other hand, require the player to learn their rotations, learn and be able to execute the boss mechanics, and to get into a group which can succeed.  What's required of the player is different.

 

How many LI do you think those players who join training raids to get carried earn per week?  Let's say that they manage to get five.  That means it'll take them 30 weeks to get the 150 LI through raids not counting the other bosses that they'll need to kill at least once for the collections.  For subsequent armor, it'll take them 60 weeks.  Training runs also do not always end in success so you could spend two hours with a group and not actually get a win.

 

[Leechers in Dragonstorm [Merged]]

1 hour ago, NaramSin.2693 said:

That's ok at least they could be useful in some way and not just a pile of unmovable rubbish as it is now

It may be okay for you perhaps but would it be okay for others?

[I feel screwed over by the Legendary Armory [Merged]]

3 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Meh..that argument has limited viability. I mean, yeh you have to participate to get LI but in same sense that the most lazy type example I can come up with for earning wvw pips is to run around and kill pve mobs and be willing to die some times. You still have to pretty much pay attention and do some basic pve correctly  and also deal with some pvp combat or you will not maintain ur t6 participation, but you will eventually enough tickets to buy armor and gifts. Likewise, the most lazy type raider really isnt forced to do more than just join training and no KP runs on easy mobs like Cairn, VG, etc. It doesnt require they be skilled or be able to get weekly clears to eventually collect 150 LI. The only big skill check of getting Envoy armor is the Envoy 2 collection requiring the person actually does greens correctly on a cairn kill without getting killed. The rest of the collections tasks are very basic and doable by any avg pve player. For the lazy player its only a matter of time before they get into a run that gets them each kill provided they just bring the things like Itzle poison, etc when they raid. That's not really a high bar and arguably not much different from the most lazy route to legendary armor from wvw and pvp. In fact, the WvW and PvP armor will take MUCH MUCH longer if you want the Mistforged skins due to rank requirements for the skins.

 

The point was that in order to make legendary progression in PvE, players had to spend time working on their rotations, learning the raids, and actively participating in every encounter for its duration.  This is vastly different from sPvP where you just need to be present in the match or repair the a wall once during a defend objective event (i.e. SMC wall) every 10-12 minutes.  The rest of the time you can just AFK somewhere.  WvW and sPvP can be jumped straight into without by a new player.

 

You claim that it doesn't require skill to be able to weekly clears to eventually collect 150 LI but then what are all of these threads asking for an easy mode and such?  If, according to you, it's not the skill level stopping them then what else is there?  Is the claim now that they're just lazy?

 

Anyway, this is diverting from my point that I made that the acquisition of legendary armor between PvE and SPvP/WvW is different.

[I feel screwed over by the Legendary Armory [Merged]]

49 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Yea that's my guess too as to why, however, that doesn't so much justify the extra path to getting the Mistforged skins without buying any Armor. I would guess you could argue that some pvp players dont need the upgraded armor but just the skins, however for wvw that has never been the case. So simply put, looking at the issue historically does help contextualize it but it doesn't mean its balanced or fair. It just explains why it ended up being unbalanced, at best.

How I look at it is that the means to acquire the sets are not exactly balanced either. For the PvE armor, you would typically have to actively be participating and not to mention the time spent to bel able to earn LI. For both sPvP and WvW, it’s more of a time sink that can be done passively. For sPvP, win or lose, you make progress towards the legendary armor. For WvW, you just need to maintain your participation. 

[Leechers in Dragonstorm [Merged]]

7 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

Yeah but tagging each event is more effort to them than afk for 20minutes

Not by much and if that’s the threshold where you wouldn’t have an issue…

[Leechers in Dragonstorm [Merged]]

2 hours ago, Mike.7983 said:

Easy fix, have a participation % that fills up for every event during dragonstorm, so anyone who afk's til end gets no loot or 1 blue, and people who do the events get either 100% normal rate or a bonus based on participation, why should the hard workers doing the boring event get unfairly treated. Make every "portion" of dragonstorm add 20%, more than enough events in there to hit 100, cap it at 150% for hard workers.

 

Ok so they tag each event and then go “AFK” until the next. 

[I feel screwed over by the Legendary Armory [Merged]]

16 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I think so yes. I personally have the same issue. It seems pretty clearly "unbalanced" I guess. That is, it seems inconsistent that while the Mistforged skins can be purchased without even buying or making ascended let alone actually upgrading ascended to legendary armor Vs. with perfected envoy skin unlocks you have to craft a precursor then upgrade it to legendary which takes way more time and costs way more obviously. So for example, if you do a med. set of perfected envoy as you med legendary armor set, then decide you also want all the skins for PvP and WvW legendary armor all you have to do is save up some skermish tickets and ascended shards and buy the skins. You dont even need ant ascended materials or marks to get the Mistforged skin sets. However, Perfected Envoy skins have no such path to obtain they ONLY come from making legendary armor with the full cost of crafting and the time to obtain the Li. Instead it would seem reasonable to have the perfected skins available from magnatite perhaps or if not that then I guess the WvW and PvP armor sets are due a 3rd exclusive skin set only available after its upgraded to Legendary.

 

Simp[le as that. The present legendary skin procurement paths are hella broken.

You have to look back and see that the original plan was for the only legendary armor in the game being through raids. It was only later that they added legendary armor through sPvP and WvW to appease those players but without a unique skin due to how resource intensive it was to create it. That was the compromise. 
 

 

[What is the point to remove LFG sections for content that has been playable since the beginning.]

Nothing for LS2 requires good gear and you can simply use the LFG under squads. 

[UNIFY EXCESS FOR CURRENCY (suggestion)]

I find this unlikely to happen as the individual currencies exist to pull players towards specific content. 

[Leechers in Dragonstorm [Merged]]

If something were to be done, I’d see those same players just bring a necro with minions so that they can just let the minions participate for them as Anet has shown that they have no issues with that. 

[Should the public instance for the Marionette fight be permanently available?]

Looks like they’ll be adding the public mode back at a later date. 
 

 

[New path to legendary armor?]

36 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You took all that effort to reply, but avoided answering. But then, i figured you would.

I didn’t include the number because it’s on those in the thread choosing to ignore it to provide it since they’re the ones who brought up comparing the acquisition rates in the first place. My point in the thread was ever for them to simply include it. 
 

Edit:
 

I didn’t really want to get swept into the umpteenth thread about this. I originally posted because the someone was doing comparisons in days which is misleading as it doesn’t account for the variations of hours which could occur within those days. Similar to someone going and saying that someone can farm enough gold for a legendary weapon in fours days through Silverwastes. 
 

I then asked for the time it took to learn rotations and learn the raids themselves to be included.  Similar to how how telling a new player how much it would cost them to craft their first ascended item should include the cost to get the crafting profession up to that level.

[New path to legendary armor?]

6 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You know exploits on bosses in other games are almost immediately patched? Right? So basically you're saying it's okay for raiders to take shortcuts, but if it was possible for WvWers to get more progress actually doing activities that contribute to your server score (Killing other players, capturing things, the essence of the game mode) it shouldn't be rewarded?

Killing your alt character would take too much time (you'd have to corpse run them back to a secret place, or risk camping too close to an enemy spawn point. Trading captures also has a timer on it. And what would be wrong with people killing and capturing?

It's way more useful than someone who maybe just tapped SMC's wall every now and then.

Also trade captures would be more difficult to pull off because you'd need cooperation from other members on your server.

I'm sure despite your "exploits" organized groups that play the game mode properly would still progress faster than people attempting to exploit for as little effort as possible which it sounds like is an MO you're very familiar with, regardless of game mode.

 

Please do not twist what I said nor make up things and say that I said them. 

[New path to legendary armor?]

7 hours ago, rrusse.7058 said:

Do you think having a Beginner Mode or Easy Mode would be helpful for the raiding scene? Would that motivate people to engage with raids more, in turn making legendary armor an option for more players?

Not for this game with its player base. As easy mode really shouldn’t be a path to legendary armor. 

[New path to legendary armor?]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And how long it took you to obtain them? In both playing time and general timeframe (time from start to end of whole legendary farm)?

 

Not directly. But veterancy in the mode (WvW rank) does, and being skilled/more knowledgeable about the mode does help you get those ranks much, much faster.

I figured you would eventually respond as you always make sure to respond to every post of mine. 
 

As for WvW ranks, it doesn’t really take skill to gain them. You join a zerg or just go around and take objectives solo. Really no different from leveling. 
 

The point that I was making was that when people compare the two modes for legendary acquisition, they always ignore the time it takes to learn their rotations as well as gain the skill to consistently complete raids at whichever rate is being compared. All to often you see people using a rate (such as four hours) for raids, which isn’t something a new player would immediately achieve, and compare it against a rate in WvW of a new player. 

[New path to legendary armor?]

6 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

Except you're missing the base point.  Raids are terrible and not everybody wants to play content they hate.  I'd like to see a pve option that doesn't include raids, not because I can't do wvw or something, but because I don't want to spend all my time every week stuck focusing on that.  I like open world content, I play open world content, I'd like to see a path where, with enough time effort and expense, I can get legendary armor from open world content without needing to go into a raid.  I'll accept dungeons, hell I'll even accept some fractals, just keep your damned dirty raids away from me.

People only say it’s terrible because they’re challenging. If there was an easy mode that awarded the same number of LI, there wouldn’t be nearly as many people complaining. 

[New path to legendary armor?]

11 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Why this? I've seen and heard of exploits on raid bosses. So let's be real here, no matter what is suggested will be exploitable on some level. But I would assume counting targets capped and/or kills much like the emblem achieves do would be a sane start. It could be further tweaked if need be. 

I've heard there's a way to sneak onto a ranged platform on dhuum and bug him. I've heard of people exploiting the griffon attack to 1-shot bosses and I would argue teapot's all-ranged Sabetha kill is pretty close.

Therea a difference between exploiting a boss and sitting there killing your alt character, trading captures, or whatever. 

[New path to legendary armor?]

14 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Just because someone doesn't choose to do a piece of content doesn't mean they're not capable of it. And forcing people to do something they don't want to just for a reward isn't good game design.

If there was an easy mode raids that awarded as many LI as normal raids, people wouldn’t care. Or at least nowhere near the level as they seem to now. 

[New path to legendary armor?]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And you don't think that's broken in any way? I would argue it is, given some of the conditions I've seen my commanders win fights in.

 

Why would it be broken.  How would you suggest changing that in a way that it wouldn't be abused/exploited?

[New path to legendary armor?]

21 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I killed SH on my second training session as the tank. And learning those things is just a start up cost, I'm sure the 28% kill rate is a reasonable average across both skilled and training raiders. Note I'd get a lot more reliable kills if I decided to be picky about who I grouped after that 2nd session. This also completely ignores the fact that it doesn't matter how skilled you are at the other game modes, you never get close to the same progression curve of even the top players. I.E. a top WvW player is not rewarded the same as a top raider.

And I've seen some WvW commanders pull some impressive crap. There was a commander I ran with that took SMC in a 30 man raid completely numbered. You could even argue that doing that with a group of randos like they did takes way more skill than raiders who are usually choosy about who they run with to make things as easy as possible. I doubt even top raid leaders know how to do that. In fact some raiders are fodder with their builds being how they are XD.

 

Well if other players could be able to clear raids as quickly as you then surely there would be no need for all of those easy mode threads or threads for alternative ways to get legendary armor. 

[New path to legendary armor?]

1 minute ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

Spoken like someone who's never tried to farm pips.  If you have SMC, you're not consistently outnumbered in EBG, which means you're getting crap pips.  Also wall repairs don't give you 10 mins of participation, it's like 2 minutes.

And, sure, I don't disagree with the fact that the highest challenging content should give you rewards faster, but it's a hell of a tangent from this thread's original point, which is that there should be a pve route to a set of legendary armor that doesn't go through raids, because raids are terrible content.

WvW can be all skill levels.  Wanna be good?  Better get REALLY good.  Wanna be terrible but still get rewards?  Better get clever at avoiding the enemy long enough to kill guards and take sentries and drop dolyaks and other small time stuff.  Basically turns wvw into a giant game of cat and mouse.  Raiders aren't better players than wvw players, they're just better at what they do, and it's high time they realized that and stopped pretending that they are the be all and end all of the GW2 playerbase.

 

I've farmed a legendary armor set and the ring from WvW.  I never said anything about outnumbered.  I was comparing the skill level differences between WvW and raids.  Being highly skilled in WvW has zero impact on how quickly you obtain pips.

 

 

 

 

[New path to legendary armor?]

21 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

Look, you asked for numbers, I'm giving you the best I have.  I'm not making up anything, I'm taking what I know to be possible, and crafting plausible scenarios involving them.  You want to know a realistic estimation for the wvw track?  First of all, a realistic one is you're not going to cap out Skirmish Tickets every week, so it's going to take more than 22 weeks.  You're also probably not going to get Outnumbered pips every tick you're in there, so it's going to WELL over 11 hours every week, scrubbing that 242 hours number into oblivion and cranking it into the stratosphere.

The purpose of those numbers is to illustrate that a competent player with a competent group doing raids can get 3 suits of legendary armor almost as fast as an impossibly perfect person can get 1 set of legendary wvw armor.

I was being optimistic when I said you could do all the raid legendary armors in roughly half the invested hours it would take to craft the wvw legendary armors.

 

Include the time it takes for those going the raid route to learn their rotations and improve their skill on the raids themselves to consistently clear them at whatever full clear time you decide to assign.  Also account for raids requiring significantly more skill than WvW as well.

 

If one can do WvW and just sit at SMC repairing a wall every 10 min versus doing the highest challenging content in the game, I'd say the latter should be quicker.

[New path to legendary armor?]

8 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It aims to be pretty universal given its splash page. Its datasets are also fairly massive, you only also need 1 person in any given group to capture it.
 

 

Whether it needs one person or not wasn't what I had issues with but the skill level of the players the logs capture.  If this is from primarily skilled players then it's not something you could realistically used for new players.  Aside from those logs, there's still the amount of time it takes players to learn their rotations and improve their skill level in raids high enough to consistently clear them.  This part seems to be consistently ignored over and over.