[Taking bets]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Arzurag.7506 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Well, nothing so far is indicating that it is, so...

It would be kinda cool if it is, tho.Nothing could invigorate wvw faster than putting this mount into a reward-track, no further updates necessary for quite some time.^^99% of WvWers would have it within 5 hours after patch and the next day they'll complain Anet hasnt added anything new to WvW for years.

Many will have it in 2minutes, most ppl i know just collect wvw reward track pots, because they dont need to use them on all those other useless tracks.

I have like 250 laying around, but i know someone who has close to 2000 reward track potions lel. You need how many to complete 1 track? Around 80?Within 5h include after 2m as well you know.

Smart boi.Was just saying that 5h is way off.

[Taking bets]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Arzurag.7506 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Well, nothing so far is indicating that it is, so...

It would be kinda cool if it is, tho.Nothing could invigorate wvw faster than putting this mount into a reward-track, no further updates necessary for quite some time.^^99% of WvWers would have it within 5 hours after patch and the next day they'll complain Anet hasnt added anything new to WvW for years.

Many will have it in 2minutes, most ppl i know just collect wvw reward track pots, because they dont need to use them on all those other useless tracks.

I have like 250 laying around, but i know someone who has close to 2000 reward track potions lel. You need how many to complete 1 track? Around 80?

[Should Combo Finishers get buffed?]

Smokefields dont need a buff.

Id like waterfield blasts to be scaled with the healingpower of the one who placed it down, not the one who blasted it.

[Que for Free For All Borderlands/EotM]

You would have even longer map queues, because ppl would want to play that mode instead of wvw.I also already "see" 100 thiefs sitting in permastealth popping up in the last, smallest circle.Or fulltank permastealth thiefs that wait out the last cirlce were the squishy ones die faster.

[Will condi damage also be lowered?]

@SloRules.3560 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Gwaihir.1745 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

If your 30 man cant clear a burn I've got bad news for you.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

Lol. Even An 8k burntick needs one cleanse

Oh boy, you both have never played this build, the dmg is pretty much instant, depending on how many ppl you have around you.Especially bad if your caster are using projectiles, a reflect can nuke your frontline down before they even see the burn on them.

The trait permeating wrath lets every third hit they do triggers a flame explosion that puts burning onto a group of ppl, EVERY reflected projectile counts as their own attack. Reflect has no max amount of reflects.They have several other condis that trigger with the burn to cover it.

Here are 2 video that show what that build is able to do, and i played it myself and its just disgusting, especially in chokes, alone 4 uses of sword of justice will trigger burn soooo many times.

First risen howls video with full explanation with every trait working together explained.

Second figrin. The first clip of him engaging like 5 ppl says enough.

Sorry, but imo a single class should never be able to burst down 5 ppl almost instantly, even when they dont expect it. No excuses.

Did you try to even play that build?...it has close to 0 sustain, a pure meme build in the wrong hands....and on other hands, the "worker" warrior build is 4x times easier to play, 4x the sustain and 4x the output of lootbags it can get thx to healing....

GW2 players will never stop whining...for god's sake, people should go play PvE or skyrim with god cheat if dieing hurts their feelings so hard

Did you try to read what i wrote? I said that i did play it. And outdamaging full dmg weaver and hammer revs consistently is not a meme to me. Sorry. Its not hard to play, you throw your aoes into them and watch the world burn. Takes 0 skill, only positioning knowledge, which every class needs in a zerg. Every other damage spec has close to 0 sustain aswell, nothing new for damage dealers.

Lol, worker still has to hit enemies, even with healing, to get kill participation you have to hit them.Warrior is full melee, that guard spec has plenty of range, so no, you dont loot more with warrior.

"dO yOu eVeN pLaY wVw?"

Yikes. Im pretty sure ive seen you "whine" in other threads aswell. Great arguments btw.

Edit: checked your post history, yes i remembered correctly, you also often make post about things you think are too strong. Should i now go into all those and call you out for "whining"? Nah, because your opinion is right, whatever you say is too strong and should be nerfed, while others are just whining.

What do you take from group for this to work?

Just replace another damage dealer with it, like a staff weaver, or a hammer rev (revs boons are going to get nerfed anyways with the upcoming patch)

Honestly you wont have perfect groups in public zergs anyways, it doesnt rly matter what you take away for 2 or 3 of those burnguards. In a 50 man blob. Those 2 or 3 guards can change the whole fight alone.

Our commanders had to call out single burn DHs to be focused or to have ppl on the lookout for reflect walls and always cleanses rdy, because they are that devestating to a zerg.

["Obsidian Flesh: This skill now locks the player's skill bar while invulnerable."]

@Alyster.9470 said:@RedShark.9548 do you read properly? I said it should be a change for PVP AND WVW ONLY. Who am I gonna stomp in PvE, world bosses!?!?!?!? Read carefully before you comment...

I read that, but it makes no difference, other invuln skills behave like that in pve aswell.

Rly... you want those invuln frames for world bosses? Oof. Guess you have to choose now, survive that pve mechanic with an invuln, or survive it by other means, or deal all the deeps while tanking it. Just popping invuln and keep dpsing sounds lazy to me.

Btw, there are mobs that have to be stomped, even in pve :)

[Will condi damage also be lowered?]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Gwaihir.1745 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

If your 30 man cant clear a burn I've got bad news for you.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

Lol. Even An 8k burntick needs one cleanse

Oh boy, you both have never played this build, the dmg is pretty much instant, depending on how many ppl you have around you.Especially bad if your caster are using projectiles, a reflect can nuke your frontline down before they even see the burn on them.

The trait permeating wrath lets every third hit they do triggers a flame explosion that puts burning onto a group of ppl, EVERY reflected projectile counts as their own attack. Reflect has no max amount of reflects.They have several other condis that trigger with the burn to cover it.

Here are 2 video that show what that build is able to do, and i played it myself and its just disgusting, especially in chokes, alone 4 uses of sword of justice will trigger burn soooo many times.

First risen howls video with full explanation with every trait working together explained.

Second figrin. The first clip of him engaging like 5 ppl says enough.

Sorry, but imo a single class should never be able to burst down 5 ppl almost instantly, even when they dont expect it. No excuses.

Did you try to even play that build?...it has close to 0 sustain, a pure meme build in the wrong hands....and on other hands, the "worker" warrior build is 4x times easier to play, 4x the sustain and 4x the output of lootbags it can get thx to healing....

GW2 players will never stop whining...for god's sake, people should go play PvE or skyrim with god cheat if dieing hurts their feelings so hard

Did you try to read what i wrote? I said that i did play it. And outdamaging full dmg weaver and hammer revs consistently is not a meme to me. Sorry. Its not hard to play, you throw your aoes into them and watch the world burn. Takes 0 skill, only positioning knowledge, which every class needs in a zerg. Every other damage spec has close to 0 sustain aswell, nothing new for damage dealers.

Lol, worker still has to hit enemies, even with healing, to get kill participation you have to hit them.Warrior is full melee, that guard spec has plenty of range, so no, you dont loot more with warrior.

"dO yOu eVeN pLaY wVw?"

Yikes. Im pretty sure ive seen you "whine" in other threads aswell. Great arguments btw.

Edit: checked your post history, yes i remembered correctly, you also often make post about things you think are too strong. Should i now go into all those and call you out for "whining"? Nah, because your opinion is right, whatever you say is too strong and should be nerfed, while others are just whining.

["Obsidian Flesh: This skill now locks the player's skill bar while invulnerable."]

@Alyster.9470 said:Please make this skill a pvp split. There is no point in making this change in pve, condi weaver only had 1 defensive skill to ignore a mechanic or prevent getting 1 shot which also has a 50s CD. Being a squishy class and quite hard to play compared to others makes this change really bad as it was our only emergency button. Why would you ever use a skill that locks all your skills for 4 seconds just to avoid a mechanic or a big hit? I think most condi weavers will agree on this.Thank you.

Guards invuln, engi invuln and mistform all work like that, no skills for you. You can still stomp and rezz.

Why should obsidian flesh be different?

[Will condi damage also be lowered?]

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Gwaihir.1745 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

If your 30 man cant clear a burn I've got bad news for you.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

Lol. Even An 8k burntick needs one cleanse

Oh boy, you both have never played this build, the dmg is pretty much instant, depending on how many ppl you have around you.Especially bad if your caster are using projectiles, a reflect can nuke your frontline down before they even see the burn on them.

The trait permeating wrath lets every third hit they do triggers a flame explosion that puts burning onto a group of ppl, EVERY reflected projectile counts as their own attack. Reflect has no max amount of reflects.They have several other condis that trigger with the burn to cover it.

Here are 2 video that show what that build is able to do, and i played it myself and its just disgusting, especially in chokes, alone 4 uses of sword of justice will trigger burn soooo many times.

First risen howls video with full explanation with every trait working together explained.

Second figrin. The first clip of him engaging like 5 ppl says enough.

Sorry, but imo a single class should never be able to burst down 5 ppl almost instantly, even when they dont expect it. No excuses.

I dont need a kindergarten lesson, thank you. You still didn't get my point

If 8k burn ticks kill you instantly half the skills post balance patch Will do that as well....i do agree you need time to respond on IT...which you have when magicly a spinning sword on you appear. If a reaper does a smart 'spectral walk, and shroud 3' IT can drop 5 people instantly. Same as a berserkers ARC divider. 2 Weavers can (if lucky) drop an entire zerg in 2 sec.I Will also see this happen postpatch, Just less frequently

Secondly: this gamemode is designed to be a cooperating strategy tower defense game. Not open field zoneblob VS zoneblob. Yes 30v30 Will appear, same as 1v1. They should not design everything around one or the other..

Thirdly this trait excists since launch and a lot of people ran simmular builds?

It doesnt only tick for 8k once, it easily does that 2 or 3 times, thats 24k dmg. More than most classes are reasonably running. They can do that from range, warrior and reaper cant, they habe to stand inside them the whole time. Sorry, if you dont like my kindergarten lesson, but honestly idc if you like it or not.

That trait existing since launch doesnt make it better, lol.

And you also didnt get my point. When a reaper or warrior kills you its because you didnt dodge etc. When a reflect kills you as a frontliner, then its not your fault, its because the backline didnt realise what they were doing. Even swords of justice can kill you, if the explosion hits you while you were standing next to the swords and someone else isnt moving out of them. There is a major difference with that.

But we can argue about that forever, because you clearly think that dmg numbers like that are ok, while i think they are not. 3 ticks shouldnt kill.

[Will condi damage also be lowered?]

@Gwaihir.1745 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

If your 30 man cant clear a burn I've got bad news for you.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

Lol. Even An 8k burntick needs one cleanse

Oh boy, you both have never played this build, the dmg is pretty much instant, depending on how many ppl you have around you.Especially bad if your caster are using projectiles, a reflect can nuke your frontline down before they even see the burn on them.

The trait permeating wrath lets every third hit they do triggers a flame explosion that puts burning onto a group of ppl, EVERY reflected projectile counts as their own attack. Reflect has no max amount of reflects.They have several other condis that trigger with the burn to cover it.

Here are 2 video that show what that build is able to do, and i played it myself and its just disgusting, especially in chokes, alone 4 uses of sword of justice will trigger burn soooo many times.

First risen howls video with full explanation with every trait working together explained.

Second figrin. The first clip of him engaging like 5 ppl says enough.

Sorry, but imo a single class should never be able to burst down 5 ppl almost instantly, even when they dont expect it. No excuses.

[sentry cap]

@primatos.5413 said:If you have been hitting guards you helped flipping the camp and have been rewarded. Everything fine so far i think :)

No, if you are red and attack a blue sentry, a green shows up, kills you and then flips the blue sentry you usually shouldnt get flip reward.

Imagine killing a guard infront of the keep and getting keep flip reward, when the other enemy server takes that keep. That would be kitten.

[Will condi damage also be lowered?]

@KrHome.1920 said:Burnguard isn't overpowered and won't be. Sigil of Cleansing and one additional cleanse in your utility bar is enough to deal with it as it lacks cover conditions.

If you want to see condi nerfs, then take a look at the scourge changes. Since it has tons of cover conditions its condi damage is nerfed to almost unplayable levels (condi trait changes: 1s of burn, 1s of torment, 1s of bleed...). Good luck stacking any condi on scourge in the future! On top of that the manifest sand shade strikes (the direct damage component of every F-skill) ist nullified from a 0.66 to a 0.1 multiplier. That will have huge effects in wvw blob fights.

For condi mirage I guess they will wait how the dodge nerf will affect the spec. It could already be enough as mirage loses a ton of sustain and utility with that nerf.

?? Have you seen what burn dh can do to a zerg??

8k burnticks applied in like 2 seconds as aoe. If that isnt busted, than what is? If that isnt busted, why even bring that big balance patch, if burn dh is fine, than everything else is too.

Sure in 1v1 its not as good, but wvw is not about 1v1,or even smallscale, its about 30v30+And there it is devestating.

[Will condi damage also be lowered?]

They never said that they would lower the dmg a condi does directly, what they did was lowering amount of applied condi stacks, or condi duration.They did this to a few classes, why they havent done this to burnguard is a mistery to me tho, that spec is absolutely busted, but i guess not enough ppl are abusing it, so its not on anets radar, yet.

[Upcoming Balance Notes]

@Hadi.6025 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:Thank you daddy Anet for forcing me to relearn the entire game after 7 years. Really what veteran players asked for.

Overly dramatic much? Relearning the game because dmg was reduced across the board? Cant oneshot stuff and has to learn actual mechanics now? Lel.

Im playing since release, even in beta, so id call myself a veteran player, and yes, i very much asked for this. And i know many more who did.

one shot builds are not what im talking about when i said relearn the game. they always changed Cool downs, and passives and a switched or added new traits. Did you read the entire patch note? Theres at least 10+ changes to traits / utilities/ cooldowns and skills. That literally means you have to relearn everything that was added. Your muscle memory from how the game was for 7 years is completely changed.

They barely changed the function of weapon skills and utilities, those are the main reasons you need muscle memories, for cooldowns and knowing when stuff is back off cd, i guess you have to relearn some of it. But its still too exaggerated to say that you have to relearn the whole game. You still have a very big advantage compared to new players.

You still know what you have to avoid, you still know what most skills and animations do, you still know your skillranges etc.

Longer cds? If you die because of those you will relearn them veeery quickly.

[Retaliation should be removed.]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

Both of those things are memeworthily bad tho. Doesn't change that taking 20%+ of dmg from passive sources that are unavoidable is bad.

@RedShark.9548 said:Dude, its the same for the attacking group, if the defendes can manage do coordinate reta and healing to tank a bomb, your group can coordinate lifesteal and healing to counter reta. This thread is ridicilous. Im about to have a stroke.

Passive dmg is still the only thing dumber than the defensive procs.

@RedShark.9548 said:Its the only way a melee profession can punish all those ranged classes picking on them. They already take the risk in going melee, why punish them more

Retal doesn't punish range anymore than melee, it punishes AoE multihits, some are ranged like meteor shower, some are melee like overload air or jalis hammers. It doesn't do anything at all against ranged single target, doing like 2k retal to the ranger rapid firing you for 14k+ doesn't help you at all. Reflects/projectile destruction helps melee, retal does nothing.

Vengeful hammers in particular is extra stupid, because it has built in healing to promote the skillful play of hitting multiple enemies with it, but since everyone has retal it actually hurts you much more than it heals.

It does punish ranged more than melee, because ranged can always cast on their enemies, if we are standing in 1200 range you can still hit me, while i cant with my 130 range. Ontop of that do melees usually not hit as many targets as ranged players (jalis being one of the exceptions, but using it in a meleepush, where warriors bubble all the boons away is the moment to activate it, and most ppl in bubble wont have reta), because their range is very small and mostly in a cone in front of your character, while the classes who "suffer" from reta usually have big red circles that hit alot of ppl.

Rapid fire? Well thats still 10hits, proccing reta, if he uses that recklessly into the zerg with piercing multiple ppl it will still hurt him, which is a good thing.

Anyways, this is an endless discussion because ive never had a problem with reta, even when i played necro and ele, i hate the pirateship meta, so having one more boon to stop that kitten playstyle from being popular is a good thing. You dont like it, i get it, but we are going in circles with this.

Maybe dont go full berserker 12k hp ele. Heal on crit, support from other classes, heck you could even use vampirismus rune if you still need more hp and heal 10% of your hp with every kill. Removing reta will dumb down ranged gameplay even further, one less thing to worry about.

Im a fan of reta, doesnt need to be removed, getting hit for 15k in 1 hit is much worse. Bye.

[inequality of classes :)]

@NuhDah.9812 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:If yu wanna argue about inequality of classes :) yu should also understand that Thief does alot of things which inherently breaks the rules of the game.

Their core profession mechanic, initiative, already borderline breaks the game's own rules by removing all cooldown from their weapon skills.This itself also allows them near infinite Stealth access which is another problem in its own.

Professions are not all created equal.

Thief is fine.

I'd have thought people would understand the difference between no cooldowns and shared cooldowns by now.

Well, they at least said "thief is fine" not "broken" or something along those lines you usually see people say about it.

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

I agree the one shot backstab is to much and shouldn't be a thing for sure. I'm just saying with how thief is designed and dp skills as they are now with the damage decrease come patch it will not be anything more than a ok +1 build. Everything that made it viable as a 1v1 got majorly nerfed rightfully so but nothing to help it as far as not relying on quick stealth bursts so it will fade out and not be used nearly as often. Imagine right now as dp is if its backstab did way less dps do u think people be running it considering it paired with assassin sig are the only viable ways for dp builds to do any real dps. It definitely sucks and is un fun and un fair to be backstabbed out of stealth for 75% of ur hp in one go and its equally as boring to constantly be going for those stealth backstabs after a hr of playing the build but honestly if a thief took 25% of ur hp with their backstab how many fights u think a dp thief would realistically win with everything else kept the same.

Yea, but thats a design flaw with the class, you wont ever fix that with just number changes. You would need to rework the whole class. Dont ask me how exactly, im not a game designer.

You can cosider it a "design flaw", or you can say it's a "design choice" and since thief actually managed to exist in the game all those years without either breaking the game or being left forgotten even in times when it stood out or in times it was less competitive, I'd say it's design worked pretty well.

It's true everyone has their taste in the style of combat they preferre, and some people just don't understand that there is a fine line between balance and the monotony of every thing being the same, as well as a delicate bond between diversity, counters and not letting things go out of control, and also there are kids that think that their profession & build of choice should be able to do it all and don't want to understand some the implications, or those who just get bpred of things and always want something else, but it's imposible to satisfy every one of these. And as I said, with all the hate, and changes, thief managed to remain a played class for almost 8 years, I doubt you can call that a flawed design.

With this being said, it's a shame there are people who play a profession like thief for 3 years now and still don't get that this is not a faceroll profession and you'll need to use everything at your disposal, every movement advantage, every weapon set combo, cheap tactics, build compromises, and so on, to make it work. You cant just be fixated on one weapon, to say it's bad even though you havent even explored it's potential in combination with other stuff at your disposal and what works best where, or heck, if there even is sothing else that would suit your own play style better.

Since release there are ppl who do not have fun playing against thief and thats a design flaw. I agree that its def not a faceroll class, but ppl who master it are absolutely obnoxious and unfun to play against.

[Retaliation should be removed.]

@Ubi.4136 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

This is not an adequate argument to keep a broken mechanic.You forgot evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions. Aegis is only one possible counter to taking damage .Get rid of retaliation , it's broken .

Ive never had any problems with reta, sorry dude. I just have another opinion on that.Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

It doesn't even come close to retaliation. The only true counterplay is to stop attacking. It may work fighting randoms, but not organized stacks with perma-retal uptime. One of the big things this game has a problem with is all the passive traits/damage. Well placed/timed attacks should not do more damage to the attacker, yet that is what retaliation does, it rewards the defender for spamming a boon and standing still.

Dude, its the same for the attacking group, if the defendes can manage do coordinate reta and healing to tank a bomb, your group can coordinate lifesteal and healing to counter reta. This thread is ridicilous. Im about to have a stroke.

[Retaliation should be removed.]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

This is not an adequate argument to keep a broken mechanic.You forgot evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions. Aegis is only one possible counter to taking damage .Get rid of retaliation , it's broken .

Ive never had any problems with reta, sorry dude. I just have another opinion on that.Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

[Retaliation should be removed.]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:It doesn't need to be removed, it just need to be altered to only effect targets in melee range. Targets outside of say 400 range should not be affected by retal. More-so, retal needs to be completely removed from Guardian and given to another class to spam it on their party. Give it to one of the lesser played group/zerg classes like thief. Let them dump it on their party.

Its the only way a melee profession can punish all those ranged classes picking on them. They already take the risk in going melee, why punish them more

@Mokk.2397 said:I've said this before .Retaliation must be removed completely. Retaliation is a seriously broken mechanic and completely unnecessary.There are plenty of penalties for attacking already .Blocks , evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions are enough.

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

[inequality of classes :)]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

I agree the one shot backstab is to much and shouldn't be a thing for sure. I'm just saying with how thief is designed and dp skills as they are now with the damage decrease come patch it will not be anything more than a ok +1 build. Everything that made it viable as a 1v1 got majorly nerfed rightfully so but nothing to help it as far as not relying on quick stealth bursts so it will fade out and not be used nearly as often. Imagine right now as dp is if its backstab did way less dps do u think people be running it considering it paired with assassin sig are the only viable ways for dp builds to do any real dps. It definitely sucks and is un fun and un fair to be backstabbed out of stealth for 75% of ur hp in one go and its equally as boring to constantly be going for those stealth backstabs after a hr of playing the build but honestly if a thief took 25% of ur hp with their backstab how many fights u think a dp thief would realistically win with everything else kept the same.

Yea, but thats a design flaw with the class, you wont ever fix that with just number changes. You would need to rework the whole class. Dont ask me how exactly, im not a game designer.

[inequality of classes :)]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

[Upcoming Balance Notes]

@Hadi.6025 said:Thank you daddy Anet for forcing me to relearn the entire game after 7 years. Really what veteran players asked for.

Overly dramatic much? Relearning the game because dmg was reduced across the board? Cant oneshot stuff and has to learn actual mechanics now? Lel.

Im playing since release, even in beta, so id call myself a veteran player, and yes, i very much asked for this. And i know many more who did.

[Upcoming Balance Notes]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:what are you going to do about draconic echo, the trait that increases herald facet passives from 5 targets to 10? you're removing all other 10 target skills from competitive modes so why not this?

They said that they were going to nerf that too, eventually, but not in this patch. Dont ask me were i read it exactly tho.

[Upcoming Balance Notes]

@lea.8021 said:

@Skotlex.7580 said:

@lea.8021 said:With such a large reduction in damage and shortened stabilities, how am I supposed to do something as simple as taking a camp with my necro? against 2 sentries and a veteran who are constantly throwing cc, not to mention the heads of towers that constantly apply cc, there are professions as a warrior that with blockages and evasions will be able to do it but for others it will be difficult to impossible. Roaming is going to become something of few classes. This balance is too focused on group vs. group but does not see the rest of the picture.

I am pretty sure that when the game launched, solo players were not meant to cap camps either. Powercreep made all those NPC irrelevant. I bet that even after the patch camps can be taken solo, but it'll require a better tactic than just YOLOing it.

Warriors and guardians core were always able to take a camp quickly, apart now there are the mounts, which forces you to take them faster.

Pretty much every class was able to solo camps, even at launch... That does not change, dmg wasnt cut THAT much. T3 camps might be a problem now, but those are rather rare these days anyways, and often are being defended by players. Bring a friend... Or, if you have no friends, ask in mapchat for someone to come with you, this mode is all about teamplay anyways, maybe you make a new friend.

@Rasfar.6921 said:I have a feeling I will stop playing after the patch.... I have no intress in wet noodle wars

Byee~ i personally wont miss ppl who supported that powercrept oneshot meta :)

Edit: great changes so far, keep at it balance team, hope you are keeping up with the more frequent balance patches

[Retaliation should be removed.]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Retaliation is dumb because it punishes something you have to do to win a fight, attacking.

It feels dumb seeing 20-30% of the dmg you take in like a 3v10 to be just retaliation.

It does very little except punishing hitting multiple enemies at the same time, which should be rewarded.

thats very subjective, i think focusing ppl should be rewarded (since that takes more coordination), not mindlessly spewing your aoes into the enemy group.

AoE is meant to be the counter to stacking. Hitting AoEs correctly is harder than hitting "take target" and just spamming single target stuff.

because the exact same goes for the bigger group, they can just spew all their aoes into your 3 man and you die even faster.

AoEs benefit smaller more skilled groups more.

If my AoE hits 5 targets that's essentially me doing 400% more dmg, if those 10 can only hit 2 of us at a time they're only doing 100% more.

They already can. Also you can counter that by spreading.

removing retal just encourages MORE AOE spamfests. such fun.

Nah it just removes a weird arbitrary bonus for big groups.

guess we have very different opinions on this matter, coordinating your single target skills is not as easy as you say, paired with support, choosing the right target etc.

It's pretty easyBe on tsMark targetSay "nuke target"If you're feeling really excited you can do a countdown I guess

anyways, if you honestly fight 3v10 and those 10 lose against your 3ppl they kitten balls and it doesnt matter if they have retal or not. it just doesnt. you are just slaughtering noobs at this point, good job.

Well sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, either retal way is 20%+ of dmg taken.

Fighting outnumbered is really the only exciting thing to do anyway. Obviously they're worse, that's the point.

ahh yes. its that easy while fighting noobs...maybe look for players that are on your level and not new to the game, or on their way to the zerg without intention of giving you a real fight.

balance should be happening around equally skilled groups, not for you to farm noobs more easily, because thats essentially what you want. if you were to fight 10 ppl that were equally skilled as you, they would wipe the floor with your 3 ppl.

so in a battle of 3v3 equally skilled ppl, you wont have any issues with reta, and if you had 10 ppl to fight 10 equally skilled ppl, they would have the same problems with reta as you had. and then you and your enemies would need to consider that aswell, instead of just bombing the kitten out of each other with big aoes.

i see no reason to change reta. its not a big offender, its not nuking you unexpectedly down, like some skills out there. its something you have to play around, and you can play around it. but dont remove it, just to help you farm some kittens.

and btw, if target focus isnt skilled at all, i dont know what spewing around aoes is. thats even easier to do. you are having fun doing that ? yikes.