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Vagrant.7206

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Posts posted by Vagrant.7206

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    What happens in wvw happens in pvp

    Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

    WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

    @"mortrialus.3062" said:--snip--

    I'll see your rant and raise you a Mending. Please, "do the math".

    Your criticism of healing turret is predicated on the skill in isolation. In isolation, it certainly seems overtuned. But you need to consider the context of a build and the gameplay around it.

    For example, we don't have a z-axis teleport, nor do we have a mobility skill that is instantaneous or with built-in evade frames. We can't easily escape fights without being specifically designed for it, because we are one of the slower classes. The result is that you need to be tankier, need to have more healing, to compensate for the lack of mobility/evade frames.

    Compare to say mesmer, which has some of the weakest heals in the game. But it has all sorts of access to evade frames, z-axis instant teleports, and more.

    @"Shiyo.3578" said:"Jack of all trades, master of all" will and can not EVER be balanced in PvP.

    TBH the most annoying part of holo is it's ranged damage. Please gut it's ranged damage so you can at least run away from this god mode monster.

    Are you talking about photon blitz, rifle, or prime light beam?

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:For example, we can only reveal if we have scrapper + sneak gyro. But only unblockable if we have holo + prime light beam.

    mate im beginning to question if u even play engi by this point. lock on in tools is reveal and toolkit 5 , elixir gun 4 , throw mine are all unblockable

    The only unblockable people have been complaining about is Prime Light Beam. Don't play coy.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @"Crab Fear.1624" said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.
    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • stability and stability access
    • mega might stacking
    • They are also CC machines.
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    It also has reveal.

    It literally has everything that every other class has.

    Non-projectile ranged attacks.

    Blunderbuss. 900 range, can't even be line of sighted.

    I figured somebody would bring that up. That or flamethrower.

    It's not designed for range. The skill emphasizes being as close to the target as possible -- the difference is the cone CAN reach that far, but it's not optimal play.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    For example, we can only reveal if we have scrapper + sneak gyro.

    Core and Holo have revealed. It's a very common pick, too.

    Generally speaking, you can't trigger that trait at will. You have to CC a stealthed target for it to work.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.
    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • stability and stability access
    • mega might stacking
    • They are also CC machines.
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    It also has reveal.

    It literally has everything that every other class has.

    Teleports.Non-projectile ranged attacks.Weapon swap.

    We also only have everything every other class has if you give us some kind of super-mega-build, wherein we have access to both scrapper and holo at the same time. For example, we can only reveal if we have scrapper + sneak gyro. But only unblockable if we have holo + prime light beam.

    Also, complaining about having everything other classes have is kind of a moot point in the first place. Engineer has ALWAYS been a jack of all trades.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @"Moirg.7560" said:
    Stupid literal "supersoldier" class that has EVERYTHING.
    Class has every single offensive utility in the game, ridiculous sustain, boons, stealth, hard cc tied into burst. All able to be managed by a 3 year old.

    It's stupid and out of control and a nerf to anything in their toolkit would be a good start. This nonsense is the kind of imbalance that results in unenjoyable gameplay and leads to people quitting.

    Why you posting WvW vids in PvP?

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Zexanima.7851 said:Holo is pretty busted and scrapper isn't far behind with their sustain capabilities. They need to buff core engineer and nerf the other two. Some goes for a lot of other core vs e-specs though

    Yeah, kind of the rub, right? I love core engineer. I would play it in PvP if I didn't have to play 5x harder than everyone else just to get average results.

    Scrapper is boring, I don't enjoy being just a tank.

    So I only play holo in PvP right now.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Solori.6025 said:

    As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

    Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

    So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

    Nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:Thats you moan that engi is in gutter and mesmer is great,yet, not even single mesmer in the core tournament. What evidence ?What I need to prove? That you and other "mains" trying their best to defend their overperforming class from nerfs? The only one holomain who know how busted it is is a @"toxic.3648" ,probs because dont have too much time to play

    Again, nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:

    If you don't understand what I meant when I said that...
    .

    I mean.If one person says a class at a core level is doing fine. But gives no evidence.Vs the counter arguement saying it's not with evidence.Which one would be more credible?And for a singular point of data. People have used literally less while asking for mesmer nerfs. Not excluding hyperbole and personal bias.

    Anecdote =/= Evidence

    We would need some larger datasets to be able to reasonably say one statement is "true."

    • In your experience, you believe core mesmer is in the gutter. I don't believe that. I think it's obscured by mirage and chrono clearly being better picks.
    • In my experience, I believe core engi is in the gutter. You don't believe that. I presume that's because of holosmith's success and scrapper's recent boost.
    • You posted a single instance where engi was picked over mesmer. That's an anecdote.

    Know what would resolve this conundrum? Data from ANet on core class success rates in real matches, skill level of those matches, and how often they're used.

    @"MrForz.1953" said:"Engie mains" defending Holosmith... Yeah right. I dread that thing, it's not what I signed up for, I won't miss it if it gets buried six feet under until the concept becomes interesting. Nothing cool or cheeky to make, no plans so stupid they might work, just plain reliable offense and defense in cleave.

    Yeah, but scrapper is boring AF to play. Unless you're running a healing build.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

    Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

    So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

    Nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:Thats you moan that engi is in gutter and mesmer is great,yet, not even single mesmer in the core tournament. What evidence ?What I need to prove? That you and other "mains" trying their best to defend their overperforming class from nerfs? The only one holomain who know how busted it is is a @"toxic.3648" ,probs because dont have too much time to play

    Again, nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:

    If you don't understand what I meant when I said that... click here.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

    Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

    Havent you noticed how Vargrant trying to sell it as being super dangerous for holo?

    Apparently you can't read, and just want to put words in my mouth.I quoted you from your own post, may be you cant read ?
    1. You didn't quote me.
    2. You didn't read my actual quote.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:Alchemy minor trait is even better than utlity slot on 10s less cooldown, who else get tons of boons because he lost health on ridiculously low cd?

    I can't believe we've gotten to the point where 37 HP is seen as OP.Yes,you cant read. Obviously I was talking exactly about this trait! /sMay be you want to learn your own class/traits better?

    Maybe you should actually post the trait you're talking about, instead of shouting random complaints into the ether? I honestly get confused about the complaints about engineer's minor traits these days, because they're getting increasingly preposterous.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

    Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

    So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

    Nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @"mortrialus.3062" said:To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

    Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

    Havent you noticed how Vargrant trying to sell it as being super dangerous for holo?

    Apparently you can't read, and just want to put words in my mouth.

    "That said, nobody is arguing that what holo has to give up is in any way comparable to what it gains"

    @praqtos.9035 said:Alchemy minor trait is even better than utlity slot on 10s less cooldown, who else get tons of boons because he lost health on ridiculously low cd?

    I can't believe we've gotten to the point where 37 HP is seen as OP.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @toxic.3648 said:

    and
    sure photon forge is technically a tradeoff
    but its also a straight upgrade to engi. pls stop using this argument. if photonforge was a real tradeoff u would see more core engi's / scrapper (not the bunker kind) since ppl would choose those specs for dps since the tradeoff for holo was too much or wasnt to their liking

    @"Vagrant.7206" said:Sigh.

    It's not a straight upgrade. There are tradeoffs and drawbacks.

    Are these tradeoffs/drawbacks severe? No. Nobody's saying that holo doesn't give you a hell of a lot more than it takes away<--(this is the upgrade). But core's in the gutter, and scrapper is... super boring to play. The drawbacks aren't severe precisely for this reason -- the CD on kits isn't a big deal because kits themselves aren't that big a deal any more. The loss of the f5 skill isn't world-shattering because most of them just aren't game-changers. The overheating isn't hard to mitigate with practice. The other minor niggles can be overlooked because PF is quite powerful.

    dud u are literally repeating what im saying

    What you said was:

    "It is a tradeoff. But it isn't actually."

    That's not a position. That's all positions.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @toxic.3648 said:

    • Photon Forge
      requires loss of acces to kits and ranged attacks while active. On some buids, go overheated means death sentence. On some other builds, go overheated means loss of access to sustain via TRV.and sure photon forge is technically a tradeoff but its also a straight upgrade to engi. pls stop using this argument. if photonforge was a real tradeoff u would see more core engi's / scrapper (not the bunker kind) since ppl would choose those specs for dps since the tradeoff for holo was too much or wasnt to their liking

    Sigh.

    It's not a straight upgrade. There are tradeoffs and drawbacks.

    Are these tradeoffs/drawbacks severe? No. Nobody's saying that holo doesn't give you a hell of a lot more than it takes away. But core's in the gutter, and scrapper is... super boring to play. The drawbacks aren't severe precisely for this reason -- the CD on kits isn't a big deal because kits themselves aren't that big a deal any more. The loss of the f5 skill isn't world-shattering because most of them just aren't game-changers. The overheating isn't hard to mitigate with practice. The other minor niggles can be overlooked because PF is quite powerful.

    [PvP] The Bunny Thumper - A Hybrid Holo Build

    in Engineer

    Posted

    @"Dirame.8521" said:https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Bunny_Thumper

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUhCsYfWwyKw6FLsFW4SZ2EbA/QloAQ/aMOeHB-jJRMQBs7EAAg9HsYZAv9AAAA

    Hey guys! I made a Condi Holo! but direct damage came along for the party as well. The Build uses Bomb Kit and Thumper turret to keep a target in the air long enough for you to finish a combo string, and when you finish that combo.... well they are most probably not going to be walking much.

    Take a look at the build, ask any questions about it because I didn't go too in-depth in the metabattle explainer, then test it out and let me know what you think.

    • Why use autodefense bomb dispenser over overshield? You're using shield, maximize it. You're also missing out on extra protection for anticorrosion.
    • Why only one stunbreak? Thumper turret's stunbreak is on a long cooldown too.
    • I don't understand your rune choice.
    • Supply crate is a bad choice when you have Elixir X lying around -- Elixir X has way better CC, regardless of which option you get.
    • I think Personal Battering Ram would be a better choice for knocking opponents around than big ol' bomb. Throw mine or slick shoes wouldn't be a half bad option either.

    Class is broken because

    in Engineer

    Posted

    @Atticus.7194 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:I got ganked and I was fighting several people at once in WvW I'm full bunker scrapper and I get a whisper saying very well played but class is completely broken? I mean I'm not killing people but they aren't killing me easily either so what's the problem and how does that make it broken?

    It's broken when you can essentially become unkillable with 6+ people on you. Your barrier application needs to be cut in 1/2, no class is supposed to have so much sustain that essentially nothing but an entire team focused on you with no interruptions has a chance of killing you.

    I'm really not exaggerating, your cleanse, barrier, prot and stability uptimes are just way out of control. You guys make bunker guardians back in the day look like glass canons with your sustain.

    I've... never seen that happen. Were all 6 bunkers too?

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

    Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

    Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

    Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

    I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is
    on the internet if you need it.

    As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

    I'll reiterate the question as I don't think you remember.Why should Engineer be immune to being balanced like everyone else?Everyone else is balanced through core AND elite. Regardless of what has been nerfed in the past, regardless of what is used or not , regardless of the state of the core class or elite, and regardless of how logical the suggestions are that we present to anet ( Cause I spent a year pointing to a direct fix to condi-mirage only to have every other part of the core class nerfed). To fix a problem, classes are STILL nerfed through both core and elite.Not bitter ( I'll let you know when I am bitter). But the implication of " We have presented better nerfs" as a basis or argument against being treated as the other 8 classes is folie. I can't think of a time a class has been on the chopping block and someone didn't suggest a logical, fair nerf that would directly fix an issue.

    Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

    That is the way Anet balances, and I don't see why one class or group of people should be immune to that while everyone else gets the unpaid intern treatment

    Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

    Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

    Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

    Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

    I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is
    on the internet if you need it.

    As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

    Basically they want other classes to suffer because their main class was hit. They rather have the balance problems continue instead of wanting the solution to begin unless it is there own class. Kind of weird since mesmers were always in a far better spot then any other class and always Fotm while engineer and classes like Ele have been getting nerfed and forgotten for years upon years.

    Yes.. Asking for fairness across the board is asking for everyone to suffer.How
    will
    we survive without your brilliant deductions Watson.

    If were asking for fairness then I would like for every single one of your core weapons to be considered projectiles and get the projectile hate treatment.I would also think its fair if your phantasms took 0 % of your stats.Illusions and Phantasms damage dealing retaliation damage to you, no matter how much damage they do.

    I'm pretty sure we're beyond rational argumentation at this point. Arguing against emotions won't really get you anywhere.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Solori.6025 said:

    Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

    Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

    Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

    Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

    I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is help out there on the internet if you need it.

    As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

    That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

    Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

    Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

    Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

    Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

    Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

    There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

    When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.

    No other class has been balanced this way. None. Yet engi is supposed to be the exception and have this luxury. Surely you can see how absurd that is.

    To be fair, most people decry when ANet balances nerfs a core spec instead of the thing that's actually busted. Like the abrasive grit/rune of sanctuary debacle.

    @Solori.6025 said:

    Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

    False. Rifle and pistol/ shield have been part of almost every meta build for holo.

    Because we have so many other options for weapons...

    Wait.

    (Yes, this is tongue-in-cheek. Rifle, pistol, and shield are literally the only 3 weapons core engi has. So of course they're going to meta, they have no other options! Sword is in holo builds too, adding up to a grand total of 4 weapons, wooooo. Seriously though, compare engi mainhand weapons to other classes mainhand weapons, and it's pretty clear engineer's mainhand weapons are objectively worse, way more clunky in design and lower damage)

    @Solori.6025 said:

    Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

    Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

    Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:Highest number I've gotten for healing turret is 9k, maybe 10k (depending - I sometimes play prot holo, which gets an extra chunk of healing power). This does assume, though, that the holo is using the blast + a leap....though I don't find this to be a too unlikely scenario, considering forge#2 exists and rifle#5 can be used after to kite, but take that how you will. Also, most people will include the regen given by HT - imo, primarily because holo actually have enough survivability that the regen actually means something, and becomes not-insignificant because it'll end up stacked with heat therapy and whatever small healing the holo gets from Alchemy. Whereas, say, on a squishier class the value of regen rounds down to zero because the sustain setup is entirely different/won't be in combat long enough for it to make a difference/etc.

    The closest point of comparison I've found is DE's Malicious Restoration, which is on a 30 second CD , heals for ~7.2k, and transfers 3 conditions (versus HT's cleanse). I haven't seen anyone ever use Malicious Restoration.

    Anyway. Is Healing Turret OP? Maybe...maybe not. It's easy to mistake HT as the issue, imo, which is totally understandable considering what holosmith brings to the table. But HT has been there for ages and hasn't really been a problem (maybe it deserves a minor shave, maybe water fields could use a buff, but I digress).

    I still maintain the issue is with heat therapy. Scrapper just got its Rapid Regeneration massacred with a 40%(?) decrease. Used to be around 660 HPS.Warr's healing signet has been repeatedly nerfed. Holosmith essentially has new Rapid regen or signet as an auto-acquire trait with the potential to get double the value (I went from ~300 health per tick to ~600 per tick if I let it drain a little longer).

    See what can be done about heat therapy first, THEN see if HT remains an issue. Ofc I'm all for the removal of HT, but I'm probably biased - someone out there suggested they prevent Heat Therapy from stacking as high (capping it at 5 stacks or something, idk). That sounds like a good place to start.

    But these massive healing numbers people are attributing to healing turret are utterly ridiculous.

    @"rng.1024" said:How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

    --- snipHT + blast turret, rifle 5/holo 5 + holo leap - HT toolbelt + holo leap . i waited out the regen and thats the number u end up with. havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy and 370 healing tops from compounding chemicals. this is done on elixir build demo amulet / herald runes (no offmeta healing build like u guys suggest)srsly if u guys are playing holo this isnt news to uso pls stop acting like this isnt a thing

    sure u can make the argument that holo5/rifle 5 isnt always available for a healing combo but lets be honest here. 1500 less heal dosnt rly matter at this point

    So to clear things up, you're saying...

    Regen is OP?Water field is OP?Which is it?

    Because most of your heals are not coming from the turret itself. They're coming from combos.

    None of it individually but the heal turret when you look at the complete package it's over stuffed and always had been.

    Compounding Chemicals also derserves a heavy nerf. Its a ridiculous amount of healing with holo and scrappers insane level of boon application. Heat therapy shouldn't exist in this form. Holo by design should not exist in it's current form.

    You mean this trait? Sure, give me its older version instead. :smile: Also, if we're complaining about 40-80 health on cleanse... I feel like we're really getting into the weeds.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:Highest number I've gotten for healing turret is 9k, maybe 10k (depending - I sometimes play prot holo, which gets an extra chunk of healing power). This does assume, though, that the holo is using the blast + a leap....though I don't find this to be a too unlikely scenario, considering forge#2 exists and rifle#5 can be used after to kite, but take that how you will. Also, most people will include the regen given by HT - imo, primarily because holo actually have enough survivability that the regen actually means something, and becomes not-insignificant because it'll end up stacked with heat therapy and whatever small healing the holo gets from Alchemy. Whereas, say, on a squishier class the value of regen rounds down to zero because the sustain setup is entirely different/won't be in combat long enough for it to make a difference/etc.

    The closest point of comparison I've found is DE's Malicious Restoration, which is on a 30 second CD , heals for ~7.2k, and transfers 3 conditions (versus HT's cleanse). I haven't seen anyone ever use Malicious Restoration.

    Anyway. Is Healing Turret OP? Maybe...maybe not. It's easy to mistake HT as the issue, imo, which is totally understandable considering what holosmith brings to the table. But HT has been there for ages and hasn't really been a problem (maybe it deserves a minor shave, maybe water fields could use a buff, but I digress).

    I still maintain the issue is with heat therapy. Scrapper just got its Rapid Regeneration massacred with a 40%(?) decrease. Used to be around 660 HPS.Warr's healing signet has been repeatedly nerfed. Holosmith essentially has new Rapid regen or signet as an auto-acquire trait with the potential to get double the value (I went from ~300 health per tick to ~600 per tick if I let it drain a little longer).

    See what can be done about heat therapy first, THEN see if HT remains an issue. Ofc I'm all for the removal of HT, but I'm probably biased - someone out there suggested they prevent Heat Therapy from stacking as high (capping it at 5 stacks or something, idk). That sounds like a good place to start.

    But these massive healing numbers people are attributing to healing turret are utterly ridiculous.

    @rng.1024 said:How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

    --- snipHT + blast turret, rifle 5/holo 5 + holo leap - HT toolbelt + holo leap . i waited out the regen and thats the number u end up with. havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy and 370 healing tops from compounding chemicals. this is done on elixir build demo amulet / herald runes (no offmeta healing build like u guys suggest)srsly if u guys are playing holo this isnt news to uso pls stop acting like this isnt a thing

    sure u can make the argument that holo5/rifle 5 isnt always available for a healing combo but lets be honest here. 1500 less heal dosnt rly matter at this point

    So to clear things up, you're saying...

    Regen is OP?Water field is OP?Which is it?

    Because most of your heals are not coming from the turret itself. They're coming from combos. The screenshots you posted are about 6-7 seconds worth of casting time plus full heat expended on healing without interruption. Hell, why don't you throw in mortar kit's water field if you feel like it too. Or Elixir Gun #5. Why stop there?

    Without any context or combat, anything can look OP.

    FYI, Engineer is the class that is supposed to have the most interaction with combo fields. It's part of our design. You can pull similar kinds of heals with core engi if you know what you're doing. Doesn't mean you're playing effectively, mind you.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:The reason core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT is because both Chrono and Mirage are straight upgrades to core mesmer. There is no tradeoff beyond opportunity cost, and the benefits are mesmer massive. You could definitely make the same complaint about holo -- the tradeoffs are relatively minor, and the benefits are massive. Except that core engineer was not meta even in HoT, and scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi. With the powercreep that PoF brought, scrapper was rendered irrelevant for a long time, and core engi even further behind.

    scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engiAre you memeing right now or srs?

    Many elite specs have no trade offs, neither holo/scrapper does as well.You know why core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT? Because you had NO chances at ANY build to compete with all busted specs being all around. Just like core engi.

    Where is that "danger" of being blown up when that heat reduction trait,thanks to perma vigor/adrenal implant, cover it pretty well ? Overheating happening only when engi playing really bad. (If you really mean overheat is a drawback/risk/whatever)Chrono wasnt played until phantasm rework happened, without a second thought about chronophantasma, and still causing issues till this day.(but thats not the point even, berserk was literally dead as well)Where have you seen core mesmers ? Except, unranked f2p mesmers that use time warp and illusions of life on the respawn, cant recall anyScrapper does not have any tradeoffs, this is true. However, the only thing it gains by choosing the scrapper line is the ability to wield hammer and function gyro. These are not massive benefits (seriously, function gyro is super buggy, easy to destroy, and difficult to use).Not massive benefits? How come it became so much popularity and became literally A+ class for AT/monthly ? I have no idea but I heard NA stacked them hard? On EU last monthly every team ran 1 scrapper? From Jaw vid I seen nothing but scrappers everywhere(cmirage main on scrapper won lol), may be because traits/utilities/weapon heavily benefits the engineer? No ?So the lack of a tradeoff for scrapper isn't as big a deal as it is say... for mirage, which gains a new weapon, ambush skills for all weapons, and the ability to attack and dodge with any skill at the same time.If you want my opinion about mirage elite spec , you will get it :! dodge in stun is dumb and justify any amount of nerfs its get(portal anyone?)! You are unable to cover your own ambush (A drawback I guess ?) that hit less than warrior dodge(which is unblockable rofl) and cost your precious endurance, mirage cant get as much as engineer to prevent the biggest drawback of entire elite specialization(vigor level must be brought down heavily so engineer would have any risk, kitten dude,I just tried adrenal implant with vigor and amount of evades I get is just crazy),thief,ele and if you arent taking chaos BD you hitting guardian/necro level of vigor. (tldr,they are not free) Without vigor its not that far away from the core in my opinon.! New weapon - gutted, hit like a wet noodle, will not play that again.! New brand utilities - trash, not even one worth running in PvP.! Detarget is nothing new as stealth did the same, could be just entirely removed as it irritates people and make them hate mesmer class more.!Elite - 2 short range nonbreakstun blink with a 60 cooldown,thats not elite worth,not even a close. Can we arrange an exchage with a rampage or PLB?! So far your drawbacks are : cant move properly , this pathetic 0.75s superspeed cant cover you moving anywhere, try move to the side or backwards?!Cant cover ambush with your own evade, you ends up in situation when you have to double dodge just to not get blown. Why its important ? Even if you have 0 ping and press key instant you are vulnerable at the end of the cast, with ping 80-100, you will lose great deal of your evade frames. Interrupting ambush means its cooldown of 4(actually 5?) seconds, power block on mesmer disable your ambushes for 15 seconds. Thief stolen skills cant be affected by cooldowns if they are not given by developer (healing tree)

    You don't seem to understand what I mean by tradeoffs.

    What I mean is that when you pick an elite spec, regardless of what traits you choose, you get certain perks. These perks are sometimes accompanied by losses, or tradeoffs. In the case of scrapper, it doesn't lose anything by picking the elite spec, but the "perk" it gets is function gyro. That's the only change to the functioning of the class. That's a minor perk at best. How well it performs in PvP is largely a result of the reworked gyros in concert with tanky hammer skills, which aren't a requirement of the elite spec.

    Mirage gets the ability to dodge and attack at the same time, plus ambush skills for all weapons. It loses nothing in exchange. Chrono gets continuum split, and loses nothing in exchange. These are game-changing in the way mesmer plays, and are upgrades without any drawback. So why would you pick core mesmer over the elite specs, ever?

    Holo, unlike scrapper, mirage, or chrono, does have to give stuff up. As I mentioned before, it has greater risk with overheating (+heat resource management), forced cooldown on kits, and loss of f5 toolbelt. Plus some minor stuff related to transforms and less interaction with the core class. I don't think these tradeoffs are as powerful as what holo gains, but you cannot say it gives up nothing.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    Thus, there's no reason ever to pick core mesmer over mirage and chrono -- because they are straight upgrades to the base class. At least with holo, you do lose some of your ability to interact with your core class (kits, f5 skill), and scrapper barely gets anything extra out of the deal. Core engineer still has uses in PvE with condi builds, but it simply cannot compete at a high level in PvP. You never find a use for core mesmer that chrono or mirage cannot do better, in any game mode.I said about it earlier. Core mesmer is literally trash,unviable,garbage and without elite spec it has no place anywhere, especially in powercrept place called Path Of Fire!(SPOILER: Like many other core classes).After all nerfs that dropped on the mesmer, its better to be buffed to the skies before giving any trade off because all these nerfs : X thing too strong on chrono! X getting nerfed for entire class,not on chrono only. Then they gut vigor, harmless mainhand sword since estabilished to be balanced for years, was gutted because of mirage. Having 2 elite specs that dont go along with each other is a curse, not a blessing, because Anet prefer to gut core rather than elite spec.

    As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

    Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.

    Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:This debate is so powerful it broke the webpage. :p

    Not sure if it's just me, but all clickables on this page from @shadowpass.4236's post with the Spoiler buttons and up don't work. Everything after it works. The formatting on that post seems strange and none of the Spoiler buttons work. For me at least.

    Looks like the HTML or CSS broke because some < div > tag didn't get closed.

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @"Vagrant.7206" said:The reason core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT is because both Chrono and Mirage are straight upgrades to core mesmer. There is no tradeoff beyond opportunity cost, and the benefits are mesmer massive. You could definitely make the same complaint about holo -- the tradeoffs are relatively minor, and the benefits are massive. Except that core engineer was not meta even in HoT, and scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi. With the powercreep that PoF brought, scrapper was rendered irrelevant for a long time, and core engi even further behind.

    scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engiAre you memeing right now or srs?

    Many elite specs have no trade offs, neither holo/scrapper does as well.You know why core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT? Because you had NO chances at ANY build to compete with all busted specs being all around. Just like core engi.

    Where is that "danger" of being blown up when that heat reduction trait,thanks to perma vigor/adrenal implant, cover it pretty well ? Overheating happening only when engi playing really bad. (If you really mean overheat is a drawback/risk/whatever)Chrono wasnt played until phantasm rework happened, without a second thought about chronophantasma, and still causing issues till this day.(but thats not the point even, berserk was literally dead as well)Where have you seen core mesmers ? Except, unranked f2p mesmers that use time warp and illusions of life on the respawn, cant recall any

    Scrapper does not have any tradeoffs, this is true. However, the only thing it gains by choosing the scrapper line is the ability to wield hammer and function gyro. These are not massive benefits (seriously, function gyro is super buggy, easy to destroy, and difficult to use). So the lack of a tradeoff for scrapper isn't as big a deal as it is say... for mirage, which gains a new weapon, ambush skills for all weapons, and the ability to attack and dodge with any skill at the same time.

    Holo does have concrete tradeoffs -- although the benefits are more substantial than the drawbacks. Holo can blow themselves up, have a 5-sec cooldown on kits when entering PF, and lose access to their elite toolbelt skill (f5). There are some other minor issues associated with transforms too. In exchange they get a very powerful... weapon? That said, nobody is arguing that what holo has to give up is in any way comparable to what it gains, but it does have a tradeoff where mirage and chrono do not.

    Thus, there's no reason ever to pick core mesmer over mirage and chrono -- because they are straight upgrades to the base class. At least with holo, you do lose some of your ability to interact with your core class (kits, f5 skill), and scrapper barely gets anything extra out of the deal. Core engineer still has uses in PvE with condi builds, but it simply cannot compete at a high level in PvP. You never find a use for core mesmer that chrono or mirage cannot do better, in any game mode.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.What is this nonsense dude? Can you provide a link or people supposed to look for god know what and god know where?From explanation I understood exactly NOTHING, how the hell you sidestep huge laser, especially when 90% of times its comes from stealth

    Channeled skills will track targets in stealth or ports, especially if it's a channeled, rooted skill like Prime Light Beam.

    I know that. Why you tell me that?

    @rng.1024 said:(...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.Does he imply you can sidestep laser elite OR what the hell i'm looking at ?

    I can't speak for him, so I don't know.

    @Aridon.8362 said:At the rate these kind of posts are emerging I'd say every class needs a tone down. Except for Revs, revs seem pretty balanced.

    Eh, Herald could use some tweaking. :wink:

    With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @"Crab Fear.1624" said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.
    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

    How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

    No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.So, from your perspective: dont touch my main core but nerf other classes to its core, I dont care. Cant be even more biased at this point . You just demonstrated how 99% of "community" want thing to go. I just wish now engineer will get the same treatment as mesmer, gutted core instead of elite specs with over 50% nerfs at everything, then I will tell to engi mains they never been in a bad spot to begin with.

    Its not biased opinion when I never brought attention to mesmer. Not every class is balanced the same way. So why should my thoughts on core engineer(Which is already weak) be reflected on mesmer? Especially in a engineer focused topic.

    Not even sure where I said to nerf any other class in the post you quoted. ¯_(ツ)_/¯Core mesmer never been shining since HoT but that never stopped to nerf core instead of elite spec, so your "core engi is already weak" is completely irrelevant. Core engi is that weak that we see 3 holo builds in "great" metabattle category and scrapper as meta one.

    I'm having trouble reading the rest of your posts, but I do want to address this point.

    The reason core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT is because both Chrono and Mirage are straight upgrades to core mesmer. There is no tradeoff beyond opportunity cost, and the benefits are mesmer massive. You could definitely make the same complaint about holo -- the tradeoffs are relatively minor, and the benefits are massive. Except that core engineer was not meta even in HoT, and scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi. With the powercreep that PoF brought, scrapper was rendered irrelevant for a long time, and core engi even further behind.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.What is this nonsense dude? Can you provide a link or people supposed to look for god know what and god know where?From explanation I understood exactly NOTHING, how the hell you sidestep huge laser, especially when 90% of times its comes from stealth

    Channeled skills will track targets in stealth or ports, especially if it's a channeled, rooted skill like Prime Light Beam.

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