[Unofficial 2/3/2023 Balance Patch Preview For Thief Discussion!]

6 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

 

With this one, they essentially made the CD reduction baseline and increased the amount of condition cleanse it brings. Decent boost to help take cleanse burden off the profession for those slotting tricks.

 

They've made cooldowns reduction baseline, but not for Withdraw, Lesser Haste and Dagger Storm. That's a nerf of the trait.

 

6 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

This is a definite nerf. While the range is returned to 1200 units, it loses unblockable and has a longer cooldown.

 

Steal cooldown will be reduced from 30 sec to 25 seconds, so there won't be a longer cooldown.

 

 

[Unofficial 2/3/2023 Balance Patch Preview For Thief Discussion!]

28 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I would have liked a reason for getting rid of swipe. Maybe they gave one on the stream.

 

"We think it's too powerful", that's the reason.

[Unofficial 2/3/2023 Balance Patch Preview For Thief Discussion!]

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

 

• Signets of Power: This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated.

 

Please, specifie that Signets of Power will grant 1 initiative when a signet skill will be activated.

And Steal will have 25 seconds cooldown.

[Unofficial 2/3/2023 Balance Patch Preview For Thief Discussion!]

I can only see nerf for thieves in PvP / WvW:

1) Trickster won't reduce Tricks skills cooldown anymore , but Withdraw doesn't get a base cooldown reduction and Dagger Storm neither. The +1 condition removed is quite useless on a class that has no problems on condi cleaning.

 

2) Roll for Initiative will regenarete 4 initiative instead of 6.

 

3) Swipe/Steal: Daredevil will lost unblockable steal, that's a huge nerf, and one of its core mechanics: it will be a thief with just different dodges.

 

4) Shadow Meld: it won't remove Revealed anymore, becoming basically a Blinding Powder that doesn't blind. Deadeyes will play Dagger Storm or Basilisk Venom. Another core mechanics killed.
 

In the meanwhile without Shadow Arts and Trickery thieves really struggle with initiative costs and Pulmonary Impact is still a joke (and it will be even worse without unblockable Swipe).

[Shadow Arts Re-Rework]

Shadow Arts at the moment is fine and no need to be modified.

[November 29 Balance Update Preview]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:51 PM, Double Tap said:

Thief

Deadeye

• Kneel: Increased initiative cost from 1 to 2. While kneeling, players can now move at a 75% reduced speed. Kneel is no longer canceled when you become disabled.
• Skirmisher's Shot: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
• Three Round Burst: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
• Death's Judgement: This skill now pierces foes not targeted by Deadeye's Mark. Damage dealt to unmarked enemies is reduced. Players can now move while using this skill. Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.

 

 

1)  Skirmisher's Shot: Skirmisher's Shot range is 1,200 right now, do you mean Spotter's Shot instead?

 

2) Kneel: I don't like this change, because you could now do not call it "kneel". Will players be able to move while using all Kneel skills now? Or only DJ?

 

3) Death's Judgement: "Damage dealt to unmarked enemies is reduced". What do you mean? Right now damage to unmarked enemies is "reduced" (due to Malice "Malice enhances the Deadeye's stealth attacks against their marked target." and Iron Sight), do you want to reduce it more? Would that affect base skill damage? That would be an unmotivated nerf.

[Thoughts on the Balance Preview Stream?]

I really don't like the patch changes.

 

Hard to Catch lose its break stun function, the new one could be good, but we can't say it because we don't know the amount of endurance you will gain after shadowstepping.

 

Instant Reflexes will be OP with Daredevil Impact Strike. 5 seconds of evade with Dagger Storm  is simply too much. 
Basilisk Venom and Thieves Guild are usually precasted and the new Instant Reflex will be completely useless. Shadow Meld gives you stealth and you usually don't need evade while stealthed. 

It would have a lot more sense to relate this trait with healing skills, introducing a 50 sec cooldown.

 

Shadow Shroud health should scale 1:1.
0,69 could be fine if you increase the shadow force generation.

 

 

Daredevil damage is really low in PvP and WvW, compared to other spec.

PI is still a joke.

Initiative skill cost is really high, if you don't play Shadow Arts.

[October 4 Balance Update Preview]

On 9/14/2022 at 6:22 PM, Double Tap said:

 

 

Scrapper: mobile wells are what make Scrapper being unique.  You should revert this change.

Engineer: Explosive Entrance: this trait deal by far too much passive damage in WvW (where people do not only fight in big groups, but also do some roaming, alone or in small groups), it should be at least reduced by 50%.

Thief: Instant Reflexes: This trait no longer grants evasion when dropping below 50% health. Instead, it grants evasion after using an elite skill.   --> I really don't like this new trait: most used elite skills are Basilisk Venom and Dagger Storm.
Basilisk Venom is usually precasted, so 2 seconds of evade after using it are completely useless, Dagger Storm has 3 seconds of evade, do you really want to get 5 (3+2) seconds of evade using it? It's really too much, no sense.
Relating this trait with Healing skills, with a 50/60 seconds cooldown, would be better.
Pulmonary Impact: PI damage is too low in competitive modes. Its damage should ignore toughness to be playable again.

 

Berserker: Entering berserk mode no longer initiates an attack, and now counts as a rage skill instead of a level 3 burst skill.

This is a huge nerf: entering berserker mode now does decent damage and activate burst skills traits.
Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power, if entering berserk mode will be a Rage skill, Berserker will have to chose if spend Adrenaline with core burst skill and gain max level of those traits or to enter in berserker mode and gain stacks one by one hitting with primal burst skill.. 

You wrote you want to improve Berserker's synergies with Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power, but you're doing the opposite.

 

Defy Pain: This trait no longer grants Lesser Endure Pain when dropping below 50% health. Instead, it grants Lesser Endure Pain after using an elite skill. -->  Please insert a 40-50 seconds cooldown, Berserker can't have 2,5 seconds of Endure Pain every 18 seconds (Head Butt).

 

 

[The thief changes that I want.]

@"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:You do realize that stealth is thieves only defense unless using evasive builds.

That's not true: stealth is thief only defence if you make a build only based on stealth.My D/P Daredevil build, with Shadow Arts and Trickery, has dodge, mobility, damage reduction, blind, condi cleans..

5-6 seconds of Revealed instead of 3 (in WvW) or 4 (PvP) would only makes things a little bit more fair, specially if Backstab would increase his base power coefficient to 2.0.

I'm guessing you play an evasive build. Yes they typically have a hard time against stealth builds but its far from impossible to win. Also other builds that you kill often have an easier time against stealth.

I'm a main thief, I play D/P daredevil with Deadly arts andTrickery, D/P Daredevil with Shadow Arts and Trickery, Staff, Sword Dagger with Core and Daredevil, condi Daredevil with D/D, condi core with P/D and sometimes also Deadeye Rifle and S/P Daredevil..My fav? Old Classical D/P Daredevil, but the problem is not what I want to play.

3 seconds of Revealed was fine before the 25 February competitive content update: less power damage has been a great buff for stealth builds. Increase Revealed time would be a sort of balance. Anyway this is only my opinion, based on the "direction" I would like the class to take.

[I don't get it (balance notes and logic behind it)]

@babazhook.6805 said:I am not sure why this was not slotted in for Pve players.

Keen Observer change (+10% critical-hit chance while your health is above the threshold) affects also PvE players.

No Quarter and Practiced Tolerance changes will affect only PvP and WvW players.

[The thief changes that I want.]

@AikijinX.6258 said:I feel as though the burst of agility stun break is pretty much useless a majority of the time. The stun break doesn’t need to be proc’d as soon as the quickness proc’s. It needs to be reserved for when we actually get stunned in my opinion.

Burst of Agility breakstun is useless cause the trait need you to hit from flanks and of course if you are stunned you can not hit. AN can easily remove breakstun from this trait.This trait increase your damage thanks to Quickness boon and fit well with Dagger/Pistol Backstab and Sword/Dagger Flanking Strike.60 seconds of cooldown make it completly useless right now.

[I don't get it (balance notes and logic behind it)]

@babazhook.6805 said:Ok what is keen observer?

Keen Observer: Critical-hit chance is increased while your health is above the threshold (90%).

Is the Minor Adept trait of Critical Strikes (Minor traits are the ones you have to take without alternatives when you select a specialization).

[The thief changes that I want.]

I'm still waiting for these changes:

1. Pulmonary Impact: increase power coefficient from 0.75 to 0.9 in WvW and PvP.
2. Backstab: increase base power coefficient from 0.9 to 1.0. Increase flanking power coefficient from 1.8 to 2.0 in. (in WvW and PvP) - Malicious Backstab: keep the current base power coefficients.
3. Heartseeker: base power coefficients (in WvW and PvP):
   • above 50%: 1.2
   • below 50%: 1,5
   • below 25%: 1,8.
4. No Quarter: Increased ferocity from 250 to 300 in PvE, PvP and WvW
5. Burst of Agility: Lesser Haste recharge time 25 sec.

General competitive change:Revealed should last 6 seconds in WvW and PvP in order to balance the "stealth-hit-dodge-stealth" mechanic.

[I don't get it (balance notes and logic behind it)]

Critical Strikes should be buffed in PvE also, like Bounding Dodger.

In PvE Daredevil suffer DPS lack, in WvW / PvP thief need a damage buff, but only some trait and skill, not general damage buff that create only problems.

[Thief changes suggestions]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Global changes

• Stealth no longer stacks duration.

The problem is not how much stealth you can stack before hit, but the stealth-hit-stealth mechanics that is unfair to face.As main thief I would like to have 6 seconds of Revealed in WvW and PvP.

Weapon ChangesTrait Changes

Your "suggestions" can be summarized in one sentence: "I want that all thieves will only play the same and only one build in every modes (PvE, PvP, WvW): Sword Dagger".All your changes are goind in the same direction: buff Sword, nerf all the other weapons set.I don't like it.

[Upcoming Balance Notes]

@"Fire Attunement.9835" said:

Quick comment, these release notes are not complete and in particular thief has more changes that we weren’t able to get localized for this early posting.

Thief

With this update, we're looking to improve condition builds in PvE while reducing more egregious condition builds in PvP and WvW.

• Thousand Needles: Increased bleeding duration from 3 seconds to 5 seconds for both the impact and pulse attacks.
• Shadow Strike: Repeater availability duration has been reduced from 4 to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW.

I'm still waiting for these changes:

1. Pulmonary Impact: increase power coefficient from 0.75 to 0.90 in WvW and PvP.
2. Backstab: increase base power coefficient from 0.9 to 1.0. Increase flanking power coefficient from 1.8 to 2.0 in. (in WvW and PvP)
3. Malicious Backstab: keep the current base power coefficients.
4. Heartseeker: base power coefficients (in WvW and PvP):
   • above 50%: 1.2
   • below 50%: 1,5
   • below 25%: 1,8.

Revealed should last 6 seconds in WvW and PvP in order to balance the "stealth-hit-dodge-stealth" mechanic.

[Viper's or Grieving for P/d condi thief for WvW roaming?]

@"mikdepadua.8376" said:Hmmm Carrion does make sense, plus exotic is easy to obtain. Thanks. I’ll start with that. I’m still unsure if i should go with core thief or daredevil.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAoiVlFwEZXsNGJOuO7rbA-zVRYLRHjN4SJnIIzQI3CIkEwzLRg2AvGFcWB-whttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaxAoiVlFUwETcXdttOGZnOuO7rbA-zVZYLho64TJY0BmhWD/YSRgljoIShYuKgQkAO9SQiiAVzBgneIk+pEBMaUwZF-w

these ones have a really good damage output and work quite well in WvW roaming.

[Pulmonary Impact needs a Buff]

@"Exitus.3297" said:Not really much else to say. The 66% nerf to PI was way too much.

I get ANet wanted to tone down the damage from CC, but this isn't like Lightning Rod (which now does more raw damage, applies Weakness and can Crit) where any CC application will proc it. Impactful Disruption at least requires good timing. When sharing the same column as Havoc Specialist, what's the point?

I'm not asking for the thing to be buffed back where it was. It just needs some help in my opinion.

I've made a thread me too time ago..

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97849/save-pulmonary-impact#latest

It would be just fine if it would be able to make 1-1,5k damage.

[Thief still hitting for 5k]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"MarkBecks.6453" said:so playing Mesmer against regular thief and 3 of us cant catch or kill him, he went underwater and sat their with zero damage from my Mesmer, (please check, that's either an exploit or a bug which he fully knows about), then 1 minute later he hits me for 5k crit, heartseeker. Please Anet if you going to tone down all the power, you need to relook at thief, I cant kill him, but he can critically hit me for that much damage. Not only that, takes down a camp while we fighting him, something stinks here

And i am both a Necromancer and Mesmer Profession main. Shame on you to tell a Mesmer player that, knowing well enough Thief Profession continually remaining the prime Toxic Profession to the health of the game. As Anet continually refuses to no address their Toxicity by not redesigning them.

Mesmer Professions do not tell Necromancer Profession 'to learn how to play or come one the forum crying', in fact, we standby Necromancer Profession when it comes to our common Toxic Enemy Profession-Thief Profession. Once again, Thief Profession is the reason why all the professions behave Toxic because why not? Instead of fighting Healthy Competition against Unhealthy Toxicity, Fight Toxicity against Toxicity, .Fight fire with Fire= Balance

We expect you to be be courteous in return

The player that opened the post is asking for a thieves nerf based on the fact that he is not able to kill a thief. A thief that hit him for 5k damage (not 20k..).

If we want to have polite and useful discussions we must talk about objective data.

1. Thief has is counter builds. Permastealth is a problem? Yes, as thief I don't like it.

2. Thief damage is fair? Yes, consiedering other classes.

3. 5k critical hit is too much? No, considering that all classes can still reach 13-14k critical damage with some skills.

4. This trait is based on one player single experience: don't come here talking about Mesmer VS Necro, Soulbeast VS Thieves, Thief VS Mesmer. If I'm a bad thief and I lose against a necro, I can't go on forum asking for necromancer nerf because "I can win against one of them".

[[Patch Feedback] Consolidated Thief Thread]

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll also ask for your feedback if you are happy with a specific change and want to say so.

1. Backstab: Backstab now deals less damage then Heartseeker to players that are below 25% life. Heartseeker is spammable and should not make more damage then Backstab. IMHO Backstab should have 2.0 power coefficient (only Backstab not Maliciuos Backstab that is fine thanks to malice mechanic), while Heartseeker could have power coefficient 1.2 / 1.5 / 1.8 (instead of 1.0 / 1.5 / 2.0).

2. Pulmonary Impact: it's a playstyle mechanic that i love, but the actual damage is a joke. Revert the change or at least increase the power coefficient to 1.5 or makes PI able to critically hits.

3. Burst of Agility: 60 seconds cooldown in order to have 3 seconds of quickness is too much. Reduce cooldown to 30/35 seconds.

4. Lot of skills get its damage nerfed, the Increased initiative cost is a shame: we do less damage (like other classes) but we can also use less skills in the long time period. daredevil suffers the 600 range swipe, Shadow Shot is a must have, 5 initiative is too much in WvW.

[Poll: Is WvW More Enjoyable After The Patch?]

Less build diversity

Less skill needed.

More unbalance between classes (for example: less breakstun and weaver still have tons of stuns/dazes; less damage, but some builds still hit 13-15k single skill while other builds have too much sustain).

1vs3 now are really hard also against poor noob players if you are not using a condi spam build (I have spent 30 minutes yesterday trying to capture a camp: there was 2 staff core elementalist and a scrapper defending. I managed to downed 1 ele 3-4 times and then finally stomp him, using all my utilities, then I was forced to run, in the same time the ele that I had killed got back. At the end I decided to run away cause they weren't able to kill me and I was unable to kill all of them). This is the new version of solo roaming after patch? No thanks. Where is the fun in an endless fight?

Less fun.

[Thief still hitting for 5k]

@MarkBecks.6453 said:so playing Mesmer against regular thief and 3 of us cant catch or kill him, he went underwater and sat their with zero damage from my Mesmer, (please check, that's either an exploit or a bug which he fully knows about), then 1 minute later he hits me for 5k crit, heartseeker. Please Anet if you going to tone down all the power, you need to relook at thief, I cant kill him, but he can critically hit me for that much damage. Not only that, takes down a camp while we fighting him, something stinks here

my 4'000 power Reaper still hits for 13k Death's Charge (tested against a war, not a paper full berserker ele).A skill that before patch was able to hit for 20k crit, after a 30% damage reduction it still be able to hit for 13-14k crit..What are you talking about? Mesmer can still oneshot a thief in WvW. You should learn how to play your class before come on forum crying.

[Save Pulmonary Impact!]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That said, it seems a bit OTT to nerf PI so heavily in the same patch that choking gas finally has been brought in line, unless they are planning on removing that type of gameplay altogether. I'd assume that what people have said earlier in the thread about PI being a placeholder until it's reworked has some truth in it, based on that.

@"bluri.2653" said:imo they should remove pi as a trait entirely since it will never be invested in, keep the low coefficient but add it into headshot to make it feel more useful to use. Put an ICD on the interrupt if you want, or make it into a split skill where as if you do interrupt -> second part is a use to do damage with

Well, I don't know if their plan is to replace Impacting Disruption as trait.Distracting Daggers (that I think nobody use), for example, without Impacting Disruption (and then PI) has no sense to exist.Same for Fist Flurry "second part" Palm Strike.Reflexive Strike too, considering that now it makes no damage by itself, is really weak without PI.Remove PI leads to a review to Daredevil Physical skills.

To be honest, I really like PI as game mechanic: it something that suits to D/P-S/P Daredevil, something that require timing and then some skill. But now it's really useless.IMHO, the best thing would be revert the last patch change.Or makes PI hit like Sigil of Draining: a fix damage that is unaffected by target armor. But it should deal at least around 1000-1100 damage.

New PI damage, always with my 3114 power Daredevil Build:

https://imgur.com/a/vyWZobc

[New Balance Patch improvements.]

@"KrHome.1920" said:

Removing the stun and keeping the damage is a very bad idea and I don't think any competent player would vote for such a change.

Reasons: Reaper shroud deals enough damage on the auto attack and skill4. A hard cc is much better than a further damage attack on a high cast time so that you end up with the same damage like just doing 2 autoattacks in the same time you would cast and hit with executioner scythe, which can be dodged easily. It would make no sense at all to even use the skill outside of pve for the ice field. Addionally hard cc skills will become very important in the game since stability is nerfed and the damage is lowered. You will need cc skills to set up bursts esp. against mobile specs.

Executioner's Scythe is a skill made to oneshot low life enemy.

I really don't like the 2,5 seconds stun with zero damage (considering the 1,25 second cast time) cause it will lead to only two situations:-your target has stability, a breakstun or an endure pain skill: you will gain nothing from a skill that needs 1,25 second casting time and it is really easy to dodge or to be interrupted.-you succed to stun your target for 2,5 seconds: now Reaper has enough damage to kill every class in 2,5 seconds "of no counterplay". Reduce the damage by 30-40% won't change it that much.

I don't like the idea of Stun=easy win, 2,5 second is too much.A 7-8k damage skill that inflicts chill it would be better IHMO, or of you want to split the effects:

• 1,5 seconds stun + 2 seconds chill + ice field above 30% target life
• 7-9k damage + 2 seconds chill + ice field below 30% target life.

[Save Pulmonary Impact!]

@KrHome.1920 said:

Headshot will see an increased value because stability is excessively nerfed. D/P thieves will be back at 2k14 levels in terms of just interrupt everything important on their target. There have to be some noticeable nerfs to a trait that further improves that skill. Btw. PI does now even reliably proc on shortbow4 (rework to 1s daze on impact) on up to 5 targets.

People, and you first, seem to not understand the difference between Headshot or Choking Gas (Shortbow 4) and interrupt a skill: you still talking about PI like at EVERY Headshot it will correspond a Pulmonary Impact, so spamming HS is like spamming PI.This is not true and every decent player know that.

Headshot is the best defensive skill against some skill: Ranger's Rapid Fire, DH's True Shot (if they don't have aegis), PP Thief's Unload, Necro's Ghastly Claws, War's Rush, Deadeye's Shadow Meld, Thieves' Combo Black Powder+Heartseeker, ecc..This is active gameplay that require ability and timing. Casual spam of Headshot is self-defeating.

Let's see what happens when you spam 4 Headshot and you get 4 skill interrupted (never happend to me in 3 years of D/P thief gameplay, but let suppose it):-Headshot of his own critically hits around 500-700.. so 700x4=2'800 damage.-PI: against a full marauder thief hits for 1'700-1'900 (with my 3114 power build), but as I posted, it usually hits for 1'300-1'500 in most cases, considering the meta builds. We are talking about: 1'500x4=6'000 (and is not an immediate damage) or 1'900x4=7'600. Against a boonbeast: 500x4=2'000..So you have spent all you initiative, to achiev 10'400 damage in the best case against a full marauder Thief.. less damage then if you use two Shadow Shot or a single Swipe+Backstab.Now you have to consider

1. that every thief player know that Headshot is a counterplay for some skills, not something to spam blindly,
2. that there is a boon called Stability
3. that you can hit your target with Headshot while he is not using any skill (gaining nothing).

So what are we talking about?