Twilight Tempest.7584

Here are some in last season's top 50 according to an authoritative SLB main (note that they aren't saying these are the only ones): https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/899699/#Comment_899699 Also 1, maybe 2 Sic 'Em SLB won the recent NA monthly: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/940254/#Comment_940254 Just because your spec doesn't dominate the top of the leaderboard (but is still adequately represented) does not categorically mean it's free of issues. When will you stop with this tired and fallacious argument that was also made in defense of condi mirage (when there actually were but 1 or 2 in the top 100)?

Well it's Metabattle-official: all Conquest mesmer builds have been downgraded to third tier "good", dropping below even the likes of Fire Weaver. I know Metabattle isn't the be-all, end-all, but the recently revised Conquest lineup seems fairly accurate. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest Thanks to the person who brought this to my attention. :)

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities. I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream. Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.) What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it? Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on. Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal". Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate. Frankly I hate soul beast and stand by the "Ranger has a pet" Mantra, which is what the class was designed around and should of stayed designed around. You don't like it thief and engie are right there for you and no one should have to make a class or spec to cater to the screaming masses. (Suggestions are fine sure, but if ranger didn't have a pet Id never of made one.) The one thing im worried about is that ranger, core ranger is going to suffer for the over-preforming and when the nerf-bat comes down it won't be on soul-beast but rather the ranger as a whole and as a class. Which will make it either unplayably weak; Or just unfun to run around with since it won't be able to stand up properly on its own which with soul-beast here is kind of already the case. (Soulbeast feels like a straight upgrade to core, which is not how it should feel at all.) Pretty much the story for every core spec except S/D thief and maybe Guardian, I'm afraid. Unfortunately, if the way Anet nerfed core Mesmer, Chrono, and Mirage to get at Chrono and Mirage is any indication, your poor Ranger isn't safe. Not how it should be, but that's what we've seen. I'm sure some SLB mains would hate it, but I've seen it suggested that SLB's tradeoff should be only having one pet. Thematically, they're so attuned to their one pet they're able to merge with it and share strengths. Because right now, they sure don't have any tradeoffs with core Ranger. Im affraid revenant (My main) isn't far behind either with all the complaints of Herald and the shenanigans it can pull off.I hear you. I play my core rev (though I could unlock an e-spec) daily in PvE and enjoy it. Fingers crossed that boosting core a little with Ancient Echo as a "trade off" to the elites is a sign they're taking a measured approach to core Rev. Edit: Though the nerfs to sword and Invocation traits certainly hit core. :frown:

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities. I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream. Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.) What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it? Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on. Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal". Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate. Frankly I hate soul beast and stand by the "Ranger has a pet" Mantra, which is what the class was designed around and should of stayed designed around. You don't like it thief and engie are right there for you and no one should have to make a class or spec to cater to the screaming masses. (Suggestions are fine sure, but if ranger didn't have a pet Id never of made one.) The one thing im worried about is that ranger, core ranger is going to suffer for the over-preforming and when the nerf-bat comes down it won't be on soul-beast but rather the ranger as a whole and as a class. Which will make it either unplayably weak; Or just unfun to run around with since it won't be able to stand up properly on its own which with soul-beast here is kind of already the case. (Soulbeast feels like a straight upgrade to core, which is not how it should feel at all.)Pretty much the story for every core spec except S/D thief and maybe Guardian, I'm afraid. Unfortunately, if the way Anet nerfed core Mesmer, Chrono, and Mirage to get at Chrono and Mirage is any indication, your poor Ranger isn't safe. Not how it should be, but that's what we've seen. I'm sure some SLB mains would hate it, but I've seen it suggested that SLB's tradeoff should be only having one pet. Thematically, they're so attuned to their one pet they're able to merge with it and share strengths. Because right now, they sure don't have any tradeoffs with core Ranger.

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities. I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream. Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.) What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it? Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on. Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal". Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate. Sounds like a perk without a trade-off. Remember what Anet recently said about trade-offs? :wink:

I never claimed that sicem wasnt broken or in need of a nerf. I was merely stating that people often jump on the nerf bandwagon complaining about a specific build when the problem with balance and overpowered specs is rarely just due to specific skill numbers. The few situations where this was the case would be berserker arc divider damage, or scrapper bulwark gyro barrier. Ok then. Because based on your opening statement below, it seemed like you were generally delegitimizing recent calls for SLB nerfs as sudden and conveniently timed, and suggesting SLB bursts are fine (by comparing to FA Weaver). Agree. But unfortunately Anet apparently has a less-than-stellar track record of reworking skills/traits (Phantasm rework anyone?). Lazy numbers tweaks, like what they largely (over-)did to the rest of Mesmer and its elites, may be all we can hope for to at least bring overtuned things back down to earth. As has been said repeatedly, the problem with SLB is out-of-control damage multipliers (of which Sic 'Em is one), plus too much unblockable (Unstoppable Union) resulting in astronomical damage potential on top of an already very sustainy spec. I also agree with pretty much everything else you said. Not sure if this was directed at me, but ranger is my least played class in pvp and wvw. If you're not a delusional SLB main or apologist for them, then no. :)

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities. I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream. Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

You're right. The build has been around for a while, and it, along with other SLB builds have been broken all this time. What's changed? The fact that other formerly broken PoF specs like the notorious condi-mirage, all mesmer profession builds in fact, all thieves (most recently Daredevil), Scourge, and even briefly boosted HoT specs like Berserker and Druid have all been toned down in the time SLB has gotten a free ride, going balance update after balance update virtually untouched. That's what's changed. In other words, while several things may have been overperforming right after PoF launched, the more things that have gotten toned down since then, the more the things that have not been hit (SLB, Holo, SB) stand out. Not that perplexing a concept I think. What if the skill/combo is what's behind the 1-shot burst? Isn't it better to focus on the problem mechanic, or would you prefer nerfs to the whole class? Because that has happened. To the entire Mesmer profession. I'm not saying that should happen to other professions too, but if you want it, there is precedent for it. Anyhow, if you don't think 1-shot bursts deserve attention then I think Deadeyes, 1-Shot Chronos, and even former backstab thieves would like to have a word with you. Please SLB mains, you'll really do yourself a solid by not pretending your class isn't currently overtuned and recognizing that it deserves at least some of the toning down other specs have already gotten. Or you can keep deluding yourselves that people are just crying because they die to your spec and not because something about it is broken. Your choice.

Does thief get extra punishment for hard countering mesmer with its toxicity? :p

I think this sums it up well. Perfect snapshot of POF power-creep (it's not the only one). Broken record time: Soulbeast in general simply does way too much damage relative to its survivability. This isn't an opinion, but a fact. Compared to other duelists, with the exception of Holo, and to some extent Spellbreaker, both of which are also power-crept POF specs, it just does too much. Compared to other 1-shot builds like Deadeye and Chrono, it has all the reward for none of the risk. Hits like a truck, survivable af. I'm sure someone will check your numbers or at least say whether all those multipliers can be had in one build, but assuming this is even remotely accurate (I suspect it is), it directly supports what I've asked for with respect to toning down SLB: All I want is for SLB damage to be toned down as part of a universal reverse power-creeping. However that is best accomplished, I trust to the profession experts.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I know I would feel bad farming people the way the "gimmick" Soulbeast did. It just wouldn't be fun knowing I'm cheesing a cheap combo to exploit peoples' ignorance of how it works. It really doesn't matter if the build doesn't cut it at the top (an argument often presented to say SLB is fine). If it's wreaking havoc on a huge chunk of the player base--and by nature, 1-shot builds do--I say it's a problem. Again, the same situation existed and the same arguments were made concerning condi-mirage's condi-bombs while having excellent defenses, and we all know how that played out. If there is any shred of balancing consistency, precedent, and fairness, the same should happen here. It means a lot that you'd willingly give up Sic 'Em. There are people here who actually want it buffed, let alone nerfed. Also someone above saying OWP needs a buff. All I want is for SLB damage to be toned down as part of a universal reverse power-creeping. However that is best accomplished, I trust to the profession experts. Not to get too off topic, but really quickly... Thanks again. I appreciate that you always try to be helpful. :)

I'm going to attempt clear some things up here because I feel like this post is full of misinformation. Also, you can't discredit all opposing arguments because L2P, using defensive cooldowns, map awareness to LoS, gimmick build, one-trick predictable burst, and it's your fault... ALL apply to this situation. Before I get into it, when I started reading your post and you mentioned "perma boons" + warhorn, it sounded like the boonbeast was running a build similar to this one with Nature Magic to take advantage of Fresh Reinforcement (as beastmastery isn't very good with Siamoth and warhorn). Thank you for the detailed analysis. I really do appreciate the time you took to break things down. This is the kind of constructive feedback we need. First off, I agree there are L2P issues here. That's why I took screens of the combat log, and recorded this match so I could try to analyze and understand it later. I also believe you that the SLB was a "gimmick build" because it isn't something I encounter often. This might be only the second or third time I've seen it, and never before to this extent. Because of that, I didn't know how best to deal with it. I assure you nothing I said was a deliberate lie. I spent some time watching and rewatching the recording alongside the combat log screens, looking up skills on the Wiki as needed. What I wrote is what I saw (or think I saw). It is of course possible I was mistaken about some things. I'll address your points as best I can, with the main things I'm referring to in bold: I don't run sword, and I don't think many mesmers do, because it has been steadily nerfed into ineffectiveness over the years. About the only reason to use it is for Mirage Thrust. However, that requires (1) spending a dodge for Ambush, and (2) a target, so it isn't exactly useful for the opening rush to home point. Similarly, since the nerf to Jaunt reducing its ammo count to 2 and increasing its recharge to 30 seconds, I don't think it's wise to spend it to move a mere 450 distance units during the initial rush. Had I done these things, I would have been running a weak (some would say "trash") weapon, down a dodge, and down a Jaunt (or two) before the fight even started. As for my opponent, they may have been running one of the least mobile builds as far as Soulbeasts go, but it is pretty well known that "common" SLB builds pack plenty of mobility. The fact that this lower mobility SLB build still got to far as fast as it did speaks to how little it lacks in mobility. Though it may be hard to believe, I had zero access to stealth. I know there is this mythos that Mesmers are a catchall of everything defensive and evasive, but much of that has changed in the course of more than a year's worth of nerfs (any doubters should try to list useful mesmer abilities that haven't been nerfed). While I have been a steadfast adherent to Torch despite it receiving multiple nerfs, up to as recently as two weeks ago (pretty sure I'm a minority there), I was running Pistol here. I don't think many Mesmers run Signet of Midnight nowadays either. I can't emphasize enough that the shotgun approach to nerfing Mesmer and its elites has resulted in just a couple or few "playable" builds for the entire profession. This means the vast majority, myself included, are locked into Blink, Illusionary Ambush, and Arcane Thievery (mainly for cleanse, which meta builds don't have much of). No room for SoM. As to what to dodge, that is actually one of my biggest gripes about Soulbeast. As I saw in the combat log throughout the match, essentially all of their attacks were critical, and basic attacks were hitting for 2-5K. Some have said one of the reasons pets are so low key OP is how good they are for baiting dodges, defensive cool downs, and dealing passive CC. That combined with the SLB's own hard hitting attacks between bursts makes for a lot to deal with on the receiving end. In this case, there was an instinctive dodge during Smoke Assaults knowing burst follows stealth. I guess I dodged too early, but I cannot stress enough that this encounter was one of the classic "dead before they know what hit them" experiences. The relatively small percentage of PvPers with years of experience, thousands of hours and matches under their belts sitting at the upper tiers of ranked may well know how to deal with busted mechanics like this. But I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the player base does not. And that does matter if we want people to play, while things like this continue to exist. Again, I do appreciate the analysis. I definitely don't know enough about SLB to figure this out. But regardless of what combination of traits and skills results in this monstrosity of a "gimmick" build, the question remains, should it be a thing? As I said elsewhere, a Chrono 1-shot from stealth build, for example, is as unfun for most people as anything. Yet that build truly is a "one trick pony" that is virtually useless outside the burst, has to dump almost all cooldowns into the burst and becomes a sitting duck if it fails, and is from the start much squishier than the gimmick SLB build in question. Despite all of this, it's gotten nerfs. I ask again, why should the arguably stronger SLB gimmick build be treated any different? I described it as best I could. I know for certain the Takedown followed/came out of stealth. I lost target on the SLB and they vanished. A split second later I was on the ground and destroyed. I'm sure the Takedown would have been the thing to dodge, but even that would require some experience dueling against this rotation. Otherwise it's a do-or-die game of clairvoyantly predict the burst from stealth. Not really a game I want to play, to be honest. It's possible I had vuln. I'd have to rewatch. Though I said "almost perma [boons]", that may indeed be an exaggeration as to literal duration. What I meant is that they effectively had all the boons I listed up during the course of every engagement. Isn't that all that matters? You can probably pinpoint what ability allowed them to self-apply six boons at the start of every engagement and maintain them throughout the fights, short though they may have been. Does it matter if boons aren't permanent in duration, but are readily self-applied and last long enough for pretty much every fight? Good to know, but again this was at the opening home point skirmish, before I even knew what was coming at me. I know I probably overprioritized fighting on point (doesn't help that we often get yelled at by teammates for doing otherwise), which in hindsight, wasn't wise given my opponent. I'm sure there are ways to quickly tell what SLB build is being run, but there are a number of very viable SLB builds and they are very strong either from range, in melee, or both. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, LOS isn't always available, especially on point. Again, no stealth on my build that day. And how many SLBs don't use Sic 'Em (reveal) anyway? I have since equipped Torch again solely for the stealth (honestly all it's good for). Unlike SLB, most professions have to commit to a weapon or give up a utility slot for access to stealth. Also wasn't running Sword, as stated above (no one does). So no Blurred Frenzy. As for Blink/port, see #8 below. I said, "Apparently WI + Maul combo tracks a mesmer through a 1200 range Blink if it's started just before the Blink." In no way was I trying to lie. I didn't know exactly what part of the combo resulted in the SLB tracking me through the Blink, but I'm glad you informed me. When I said "WI + Maul combo" I meant the full sequence of abilities that comprise that combo. SA is part of it and was apparently the culprit. Now I know. That being said, should SA track someone through a 1200 range port? I mean, above I'm being told not to waste dodge on SA which is one of SLB's "lowest sources of damage," but when I try to avoid it (and the subsequent burst) by porting, I wasn't supposed to do that either. To someone who mains SLB and knows this stuff inside out, it's easy to say "L2P", but can we take a step back and ask whether things should even be like this? How oppressive it is to most people, let alone newcomers? When I say "Soulbeast in general simply does way too much damage relative to its survivability" I mean exactly that. It can hit like a truck, no question there. Yet it is very survivable for being able to deal so much sustained damage as well as burst. Unlike, say, Deadeye and Chronoburst--both of which got nerfed. I find that people defending SLB seldom address this basic point. And of course I tried to counter-pressure. It just didn't matter. Other builds may have been able to do more, but that doesn't make SLB any less survivable. I truly don't think most people realize how much Anet gutted condi-mirage's killing power. Condi DOT is chip damage, which you can even see in the combat log. There are huge discussions on this forum covering the power-crept state of condi-mitigation such that ever since condi-mirage was deleted, only one thing in the game can pump out enough condi to matter, and that's Scourge. There is a reason that's the only viable condi-build: It's the only one that can reliably outlast cleanse. Not so many ways, I think, now that you know what I was working with. No stealth, no sword, gutted condi-mirage. My final duel with this SLB was maybe 20-30 seconds (just a guess as I don't have access to the recording right now). I suppose that's within the realm of normal for duels in the current meta. Yes, there is plenty of L2P here, but as ever, hindsight is 20/20. The real question, and the point of my posts on this subject is, should stuff like this even exist? Is this the game we want?

I respect your opinion, but I think part of why people sometimes have very different impressions of SLB is because it has a pretty good amount of build variety. Sure, your run of the mill LB/GS SLB played by an average player not cheesing the spec's most broken abilities isn't usually an issue. When SLB starts to feel very unfair is when, for example, it does what Deadeyes used to do, only better (unblockable snipe from longer range), with far less telegraph, all while having way more sustain. People cry bloody murder when a Chrono deletes them from stealth using almost all their cool downs, while being unable to deal real sustained damage between bursts, and being a sitting duck if they fail. But when a SLB abuses a few traits courtesy of pet merge to delete you on a rotation that's up more frequently, while dealing plenty of sustained damage in between, on a much more durable build, it's apparently okay. Other specs have been nerfed for doing much less than SLB. Why should SLB get a free pass? Where is SLB's trade-off compared with core ranger? Druid got hit. Why not SLB?

For some reason I don't encounter very many Holos. Way more SLB where I play. Both definitely need to be toned down though. Could start by addressing overtuned Holo healing and overtuned SLB damage.

This is absolutely GROSS. :rage: Now before the usual "just dodge", "map awareness", "l2p", "gimmick build", "one trick predictable burst", and other "it's your fault" responses from Soulbeast mains defending their broken skills and traits come in, know that: This was 1v1 at home node at match start against a hybrid axe/warhorn/greatsword Boonbeast build of some sort (not a glass build!) played by a Platinum 2 or so player who rushed far and got there almost as fast as I did (that mobility!).My first dodge was spent evading their opening Smokescale Smoke Assault. My second dodge was spent evading Soulbeast Smoke Assault, immediately after which I was knocked down by Soulbeast Takedown from stealth. A 13,421 Worldly Impact and a 11,360 Maul later and the rest was history.The entire encounter lasted less than 10 seconds. Time from Takedown to dead was under 2 seconds.They had almost perma Might, Fury, Swiftness, Quickness, Regeneration, and 10 stacks of Stability. They were running Siamoth along with Smokescale, so had access to plasma.I proceeded to get farmed by this person five more times. Four in 1v1, once in what barely qualifies as a team fight. It wasn't always the same burst. Literally every basic hit from their various axe and greatsword skills were critting for around 2-5K. And that's excluding the constant harassment from their pets while they flung axes from safety in between bursts. We only have two dodges to deal with all this. Blink? I did. Apparently WI + Maul combo tracks a mesmer through a 1200 range Blink if it's started just before the Blink. The SLB literally appeared next to me at the end of my TP to finish with Maul. Dead. Really felt like I was fighting Jason (or whichever unshakable slasher villain--I don't watch those :sweat_smile:). Between their ample evades, stealth, boon up-time, and cleanse, I simply couldn't hurt them much. I'd get a few stacks of Bleed, Confusion, and Torment on them and they'd all get cleared in one go. I'm aware this was probably a bad match-up for my nerfed gutted condi-mirage (21K HP, a bit squishy but not glass), and that other builds may have fared better. But that isn't the point. The point is what I stated in my OP: Soulbeast in general simply does way too much damage relative to its survivability. This is especially so with the middle of the road hybrid builds. The only duelist that may be comparable is Holo, because it's overtuned too. A number of discussions have cropped up lamenting the awful state of power creep, damage being too high, "toxic design", "first to burst, wins", all of which is anti-fun. We have a population crisis in sPvP. Imagine beginners being faced with something like this. Is it any wonder so many are turned off from the start?

I smell a rev main... First of all that's not the actual quote. Second I main mirage not rev. But now that you brought it up rev is also insanely powercrept in pvp and needs a nerf...Just make condi-mirage viable (not OP) and rev is fine. No nerf needed. :smile:

Maybe some level of the Character Model Quality setting does this?

I mean, I even exercise the concept of "personal space" with my character as much as possible. Of course crowding is unavoidable with things like banks and deliberate stacking during combat, but the rest of the time it just feels weird standing too close to people. I hope the growing number of Skyscale owners consider those around them.

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with. How wrong you are.Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill. Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois. Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!PD: And it gets nerfed. Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense. Anet has a vision. That must be the biggest joke this year.How can they have a vision if they don't even know the effect of their balance in advance as they dont do pretest? What makes you think they don't? You don't know that. You don't have a clue what they do. You're just being mega salty. If they do. And this is the quality of balance then that just makes the entire company completely incompetent. Also, is calling people salty and bitter the new " X main spotted" ? or it just means they have a different idea of what balanced is. Are people so presumptuous that they assume only what they think is relevant to how Anet should do things? Put those big egos away boys ... what you think does not affect how this game is developed. So they're just trolling us when they expressly invite feedback, or post a patch note preview in advance for community comment?

You are being delusional .... WAAAAY too delusional, to say that the QQ have no effect on their balance.. I really don't know what to say except that you are being delusional . Another thing is, this is not rock, paper and scissor, you can't really balance games, to put it simple, you can't achieve balance, we hope that changes makes things close to being balanced, but there are things that are obviously related to QQ. As for another thing here is something for you:Some players: Perma stealth is wrong and needs to go.Some other players: It is fine and L2P.Even more of the other players : The thief can't contest the point so it is fine.OTHER players .. : If you take away perma stealth give us something else.You see the issue with some of the balance problems or you need a slap to wake up? by the way, people who say perma stealth is fine also needs a slap to wake up as well. Obtena wake up xD No, I'm not ... but I agree, you can't balance games. That's why it's nonsense to think Anet is primarily driven to make game changes by forum QQ. Put it this way ... if there were no player inputs, Anet would be changing the game anyways, so forum QQ is definitely not necessary for Anet to implement their idea of the game. Forum QQ may not be necessary, but surely it has some influence. Or were meta-altering changes to: thief, phantasms, ele, scourge, and mirage following mass QQ just coincidence?

I hear a SLB just won in the last AT. So I guess there goes that argument. Its in WvW, dealing 10-12k unblockable auto hits from 1800+ range while having stealth and very good mobility. Getting Slb nerfed in pvp is one step closer to nerfs in WvW. Do you play the mode (WvW)? Do you realize that no reasonable and good commander will take a SLB in his squad? I hope you don't need the reasons why they don't take it? Really, why do we have to talk about this when everyone knows that SLB is not preferred choice for WvW? EDIT: ROFL ahahahah "10-12k Unblockable Autohits from 1800+ range"!!!! When you show me 1800+ range autohit of 10-12k in WvW I will give you 1000 gold. when can i expect the mail? since you probably won't watch anyway. highest autoattack (longbow) was 19127 damage, as can be seen in second video at 4.10 min yea, you are right it was not 10-12k unblockable! is ut hard to do? no strenght of the pack to build might (can use warhorn, use skill 5,then switch out for greatsword)sic'em +40%precast maul for another +50%switch longbow, and enjoy all the damage modifiers Where is the 1800+ range, my friend? Or you admit that you exaggerate? If it was a bet it would be extremely easy to take your gold. But meh... no more respect to your posts, I respect only the hard truth not cheap exaggerations. And even so it can land great damage it can be avoided super easy. i don't know if you are trolling, or just confusing accountnames.check this very thread yourself, this is my first, and i hoped only reply to yours you tried to ridicule the other guy, but me who plays wvw for 6 hours a day on eu (and have faced this soulbeast myself) know for a fact what damage, and what range they are capable off. the burden on proof was on him, i did the job for him and provided the obvious now you runaway, tail between legs either you talk big, or stay silent. i'm all game now it can be avoided supereasy lol , you didn't watch the videos as you otherwise would not have said so. he stacked stealth (12 seconds of it) by using every leap and blast in the smokefield. tell me how, or when, will you anticipate a stealthed 27k (axe 3) for example? you took your bet, now face it or accept being called out for itFor context, this guy literally thinks Sic 'Em needs a buff: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/76290/i-see-big-sic-em-problem/p1

@Obtena.7952, how can you be 100% certain Anet doesn't ever consider and act on player feedback? Unless you work for them or have some kind of inside knowledge?

This is actually a built in trade off in itself. A double-edged sword basically. Because Mirage's main attacks (ambush skills) are tied to dodges, it must budget both offense and defense around endurance. With the abundance of "must dodge" attacks flying around, dodges are at a premium and can't be spammed just for ambushes. With the heavy nerfs to Vigor, this budgeting is even tighter. Much like Rev energy and Thief initiative, Mirage's main attacks are dependent on an additional resource: endurance. The difference being that their "dodges" also compete for this resource. No other spec has to share its endurance resource with its primary attack in this manner. The ambushes themselves are nothing spectacular anyhow. Ranged purple globs like those on staff and scepter are easily sidestepped. The melee ambushes are nothing to write home about either. With the hit to Mirage Cloak duration, the whole "cast while dodging" perk is out the window. Most Ambush and other cast times well exceed the 0.75 sec duration of MC. Then there is the nature of MC "dodging" itself. By making it the same duration as a standard dodge but with no movement, and no compensating increase to Superspeed duration, Mirage cannot move as far (to get out of say, an AOE) as a standard dodge roll in any direction other than straight forward. For a spec that's supposedly about mobility and evasion, it can feel remarkably planted in close-quarters. Those Jaunts which apparently pass for an "elite" skill are almost essential to compensate for this lack of mobility and likely why they're universally taken (besides the fact that all other elites are even less useful). Core Mesmer is indeed like core Engi in that it is very much overshadowed by its elites. Not necessarily because there aren't trade-offs, but because the elites' mechanics may make them more effective in various gameplay. The situation isn't helped when attempts to reign in elites are undergone by nerfing core. But that is definitely what happened to Mesmer.

I don't think people forgot. There were some nerf-engi threads (both Holo and Scrapper) recently. Both Soulbeast and Holo (as well as Spellbreaker) are still power-crept PoF bloat and need some adjustments. I'm not sure why, but I personally see more SlBs in matches than Holos. Maybe SlB has a lower skill floor to be effective and engis are more divided between Holo and Scrapper since both are meta.