Silinsar.6298

Any high DPS spec that has a little stab or range against shocking aura still might just want to attack it. It's not like Glint Rev heal. The window is 5sec and the additional heal is 8k. If you wait 5sec you're granting your enemy 5sec of semi-invulnerability. All you need to do to make the extra heal not worth it is 8k damage (while the AED user, to some extent, will be trying to trigger it), if you apply soft and/or hard CC as well the engi has more problems than he'd have if you stopped attacking. Especially if he expects to get a 5sec breather.Voluntarily eating a bit more damage to secure a proc can go wrong easily. Say you're willing to take just ~3k damage in the first place to get the additional heal, but the enemy crits a bit more / harder than expected, then the HPS drops fast and you're better off taking HT again. AED is only good for the burst of healing you need to survive a short and not very frequent period of focus fire that ends fast and if that's all you need to finish off an enemy (or a support keeps your HP up vs lower constant pressure). In my experience, as soon as you get/need to use AED a second time in a fight it'd have probably been better to not pick it. Med pack and Egun 5 make it a bit less problematic but AED's still hard to make really good use of.

Usually I don't try to force fights vs. single low ranks meaning I chase them or initiate while they're unaware, but I don't really see the point in completely ignoring them. If they directly cross my path, take literally more than 10 seconds to notice me (without stealth), don't withdraw from objectives I'm trying to defend and/or expect me to just let them walk through me I might kill them. Or not. But players, especially noobs since they seem to not notice the gesture, aren't good at repaying courtesy. You let them walk, they turn around and try to get you when you get busy fighting someone/something else, you let escape into a tower, they go firing you at you with cannons etc. ... I also have limited sympathy for people going there just for the dailies. Yeah, it can be nice to get them fast, but you're entering a PvP game mode. You can hope (and be thankful) for courtesy but never demand it. Also, like you said, you got better by fighting better players, if everyone of those would have just ignored you when you started out there might have been less incentive to get better. If players want to learn they won't mind a fight (or the occasional reminder to watch one's back), as long as you don't just roll over them with gank squads.

I'd rather see something like Photon Forge requiring a 10s cooldown to before you have the option to exit. The main problem with holosmith aside from its overloaded self healing and resustain for 0 stat investment is how spammy it is, photon forge especially. Photon forge is technically a trade off since you lose the elite toolbelt, as hilariously minor as that loss truly is. The overheat mechanic is supposed to be the inhibitor to counter how spammy Photon Forge can be and how crazy high the skills on it are tuned. Right now heat as an inhibitor is basically a dead mechanic. With a 5 second timer to exit you're always able to leave and never forced to consider holding back on certain skills because of your heat threshold. The current CD is 6seconds btw (5 1/4 is due to tools). And playing holo I always consider holding back on skills to not hit the threshold. It is not a dead mechanic, it works as intended. What could be talked about is CD of skills (leap could do with 3 or 4 seconds) and why entering and leaving PF count as TB skills for all traits. Other than that holo just needs some number shaving e.g on heat therapy heal and corona burst's might + vuln application (also damage, and maybe even the traited barrier..., idk, stab is more than fine now but that single skill puts out too much pressure). 10sec is harsh when you assume people actually use (or even "spam") the PF skills. That'd be 20 heat from passive (30 with LDA), 25 from shockwave, 16 from blitz, 10 from corona, 7 from leap and 6 per auto chain. Assuming two auto chains that's already 90%(100%!) but then you don't get to do anything anymore other than that for the rest of the time (the rotation through all the abilities +autos is done in about 6-7sec without quickness, which coincidentally comes close to the current CD). Yes, you can lose heat with exhaust but that depletes another resource, can be prevented (cc) or slowed (weakness). And If you're chilled that'd be up to about 16seconds to exit forge while you can't exit it without damaging yourself. Compare that to weapon sets that can still attack, use skills with <10sec CD again and can be kept active longer if needed without any downsides. Without feat support a full heat cool down from 100% takes about 15 seconds. With vent exhaust a dodge shaves off 1,5sec of that, more only if you don't give it time / you haven't generated enough heat (which basically means you spent a considerable part of PF time not using its skills) to reach the faster cooling. If you dodge whenever you can and have perma vigor (~1 dodge / secs) that heat cooling period will be about 12 seconds. Which is still a bit more than normal weapons and results in the holo not being able to make proper use of the low CD of some PF abilities. What I'm trying to say is: there's a lot less wiggle room for heat and more down time & holding back involved in heat management than some think. To be flexible with entering PF sooner again you have to hold back on your big hitters (#5, #4) and heat generators or burn dodges for vent exhaust even when you'd rather keep the endurance for enemy attacks, or hold back with all skills in PF in general for periods of time. A holo that generated a lot if heat, left PF and reenters it too soon will NOT be able to make full use of it. Chill's a pain for holos almost as much as it is for eles (and can pretty much kill it indirectly) and weakness / cc cripples vent exhaust. Entering PF at 40-50% heat left and getting cc'd or chilled might mess up the heat management and prevent the holo from using shockwave for example. Or leave him running around for a few secs not even being able to auto attack because that'd cause overheat. To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization. Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic. It's not necessarily punishing but it is limiting, which is what it is there for. PF isn't meant to make holos overheat by default (only when screwing up / taking the risk), so I don't see the absence of overheating as evidence that the mechanic isn't working as intended. Increasing the CD as you described would mean being forced to stay in PF while not being able to use its skills much more often, which doesn't make sense imo, which is why I argued for different approaches. It's actually explicitly there to punish bad, spammy play. If you watch the original Path of Fire trailers, the original developer talks and live streams about the specializations, heat is a mechanic explicitly there to make Holosmith one of the "more challenging professions to play" and make "every skill in photon a serious calculation" as to whether you can afford it or not, and that they were looking forward to how skilled holosmith players would play with this mechanic (A.E.D. and deliberately overheating was explicitly mentioned). It's not there to make every holosmith explode when they use Photon Forge, but it is there to make Photon Forge a high IQ mechanic. Right now Holosmith is one of the least skilled, most spammy professions in the game. Even players who are known for being really good, like Boyce and Sindrener, on the last TeaTime both agreed even if Holosmith's design might be more fair than say Scourge, Deadeye, and Mirage, it's also significantly more thoughtlessly spammy. @mortrialus.3062 said:Here are some changes that should really happen to Engineer. Some general goals: Maintain Holosmith's flavor as a higher risk, higher reward alternative to engineer and scrapper. Trim aspects of holosmith and core engineer that significantly over powered compared to other skills and traits: Photon ForgePhoton Forge and heat need to be adjusted to make Photon Forge a more skill intensive, less spammy mechanic. Whether it's increasing the cooldown on Exit Photon Forge, adjusting the heat gain on the skills. I personally would like to see Exit Photon Forge be bumped up to 10 seconds baseline. It does punish bad play. If you spam the Holo skills your time in PF is severely limited and you have to wait a longer time to re-enter it. Or you overdo it and overheat, but people just hardly ever play it that badly anymore because they learned to use the mechanic. But maybe it'd be best what you consider spamming, because I don't think using the skills available when appropriate (need a CC -> shockwave, need to close gaps -> leap, need the medium range -> blitz, need stab, barrier, might -> corona, want to pressure in melee while you're in your melee kit -> AA) is "spammy". Other than blitz (and shockwave vs stab), it's likely any of those skills will be good to use in situations within those 6sec of minimum (even more so if you increase it!) transformation time. And speaking for myself, as already mentioned, when you aren't taking the time and need one of the PF skills before your heat is mostly depleted you quickly enter "I can only use a few skills and might not even be able to keep attacking with it anymore for some more seconds" territory. I already illustrated that "just using everything" gets you to full heat fast. And any more CD on exiting the forge will just make it so that you always have to wait for all the heat to deplete (to dangerous otherwise with chill affecting the CD) and the decision "is entering the pf now with xx% heat still present or will it cripple me too much" won't rarely come up anymore. You also won't be pending to stay in PF longer for another leap or corona, because by the time you can exit, you likely already want to exit... Taking away the flexibility of forge doesn't make it less spammy, it might just lead into the opposite direction. If you aren't forced to stay in forge longer and by saving the shockwave use for example, you could re-enter it 5sec later because now there's a better opportunity to use it. If you force people to build more heat and cool it down more before they might enter forge again, what with your suggested changes might be well over 15sec, it makes no sense to keep the skill off CD for future use. Simply capping it at 5 would solidify vent exhaust as trait choice. It could build up slower but then become faster, which could bring ECSU back as a viable pick. Eh, half a sec cast (+aftercast) for 2sec stealth that does little for you since you can't instantly port like thief or Mes would be quite underwhelming. The traited 6s are a bit too much, 4s or at least 3s as base duration would make more sense. About that "only a tb skill": it's supposed to be the class mechanic and roughly speaking engi sacrifices a second weapon for that. Those things are hard to compare but arguing for it being supposed to be sub par because it's not placed on a utility slot is not enough reason for it to be cut more than half. It should at least be comparable to a weapon skill. Look at Prestige: instant cast 3sec stealth, blind, burn, damage, cond remove, 30sec CD, blast... Just remove the regeneration from the turret and the TB skill. It's not stacking in effectiveness so it becomes pretty useless in team fights anyway and ramps up for too much over time when you're solo. Keep the direct healing. Water field duration reduction would be fine. I think however, this nerf should happen in the context of also nerfing other (passive) sustain sources. That trait change is still just stupid. It made inventions + alch amazing but only when paired together and with holo or scrapper (frequent prot access). It needs a design (functionality) change. I've never had much problems with it considering the cast time, CD and rooting animation but I can see it being frustrating to be hit by out of stealth. Still, when a CC+dmg combo gets you from stealth and you have no stun break / not enough health to be able to react and fight back you'd also be in a lot of trouble vs other stealth openers which aren't reliant on a high CD elite skill. I'd say it would be fair to see parts of the origin of the animation from stealth (e.g. light vortex being "sucked" to the engineers position) so you can still surprise unaware people not looking that direction but can't just deny reaction based dodges when stealthing in front of the enemy. Given that you have to make do with what you get and have less trait support/synergies (for rampage) the CD should at least match the one of the original skills. But Elixir X 's randomness was never a good design and I'd support changing that. I'd still say tornado's rarely OP and generally you want to get rampage every time. Which considering the complaints about rampage, might be more of a rampage problem than an Elixir X one. Probably, but that's already plenty. Some suggested changes are over the top and in need of some revisions, I hope you can see some reason in my suggested changes to your suggested changes :)

I'd rather see something like Photon Forge requiring a 10s cooldown to before you have the option to exit. The main problem with holosmith aside from its overloaded self healing and resustain for 0 stat investment is how spammy it is, photon forge especially. Photon forge is technically a trade off since you lose the elite toolbelt, as hilariously minor as that loss truly is. The overheat mechanic is supposed to be the inhibitor to counter how spammy Photon Forge can be and how crazy high the skills on it are tuned. Right now heat as an inhibitor is basically a dead mechanic. With a 5 second timer to exit you're always able to leave and never forced to consider holding back on certain skills because of your heat threshold. The current CD is 6seconds btw (5 1/4 is due to tools). And playing holo I always consider holding back on skills to not hit the threshold. It is not a dead mechanic, it works as intended. What could be talked about is CD of skills (leap could do with 3 or 4 seconds) and why entering and leaving PF count as TB skills for all traits. Other than that holo just needs some number shaving e.g on heat therapy heal and corona burst's might + vuln application (also damage, and maybe even the traited barrier..., idk, stab is more than fine now but that single skill puts out too much pressure). 10sec is harsh when you assume people actually use (or even "spam") the PF skills. That'd be 20 heat from passive (30 with LDA), 25 from shockwave, 16 from blitz, 10 from corona, 7 from leap and 6 per auto chain. Assuming two auto chains that's already 90%(100%!) but then you don't get to do anything anymore other than that for the rest of the time (the rotation through all the abilities +autos is done in about 6-7sec without quickness, which coincidentally comes close to the current CD). Yes, you can lose heat with exhaust but that depletes another resource, can be prevented (cc) or slowed (weakness). And If you're chilled that'd be up to about 16seconds to exit forge while you can't exit it without damaging yourself. Compare that to weapon sets that can still attack, use skills with <10sec CD again and can be kept active longer if needed without any downsides. Without feat support a full heat cool down from 100% takes about 15 seconds. With vent exhaust a dodge shaves off 1,5sec of that, more only if you don't give it time / you haven't generated enough heat (which basically means you spent a considerable part of PF time not using its skills) to reach the faster cooling. If you dodge whenever you can and have perma vigor (~1 dodge / secs) that heat cooling period will be about 12 seconds. Which is still a bit more than normal weapons and results in the holo not being able to make proper use of the low CD of some PF abilities. What I'm trying to say is: there's a lot less wiggle room for heat and more down time & holding back involved in heat management than some think. To be flexible with entering PF sooner again you have to hold back on your big hitters (#5, #4) and heat generators or burn dodges for vent exhaust even when you'd rather keep the endurance for enemy attacks, or hold back with all skills in PF in general for periods of time. A holo that generated a lot if heat, left PF and reenters it too soon will NOT be able to make full use of it. Chill's a pain for holos almost as much as it is for eles (and can pretty much kill it indirectly) and weakness / cc cripples vent exhaust. Entering PF at 40-50% heat left and getting cc'd or chilled might mess up the heat management and prevent the holo from using shockwave for example. Or leave him running around for a few secs not even being able to auto attack because that'd cause overheat. To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization. Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic. It's not necessarily punishing but it is limiting, which is what it is there for. PF isn't meant to make holos overheat by default (only when screwing up / taking the risk), so I don't see the absence of overheating as evidence that the mechanic isn't working as intended. Increasing the CD as you described would mean being forced to stay in PF while not being able to use its skills much more often, which doesn't make sense imo, which is why I argued for different approaches.

I'd rather see something like Photon Forge requiring a 10s cooldown to before you have the option to exit. The main problem with holosmith aside from its overloaded self healing and resustain for 0 stat investment is how spammy it is, photon forge especially. Photon forge is technically a trade off since you lose the elite toolbelt, as hilariously minor as that loss truly is. The overheat mechanic is supposed to be the inhibitor to counter how spammy Photon Forge can be and how crazy high the skills on it are tuned. Right now heat as an inhibitor is basically a dead mechanic. With a 5 second timer to exit you're always able to leave and never forced to consider holding back on certain skills because of your heat threshold. The current CD is 6seconds btw (5 1/4 is due to tools). And playing holo I always consider holding back on skills to not hit the threshold. It is not a dead mechanic, it works as intended. What could be talked about is CD of skills (leap could do with 3 or 4 seconds) and why entering and leaving PF count as TB skills for all traits. Other than that holo just needs some number shaving e.g on heat therapy heal and corona burst's might + vuln application (also damage, and maybe even the traited barrier..., idk, stab is more than fine now but that single skill puts out too much pressure). 10sec is harsh when you assume people actually use (or even "spam") the PF skills. That'd be 20 heat from passive (30 with LDA), 25 from shockwave, 16 from blitz, 10 from corona, 7 from leap and 6 per auto chain. Assuming two auto chains that's already 90%(100%!) but then you don't get to do anything anymore other than that for the rest of the time (the rotation through all the abilities +autos is done in about 6-7sec without quickness, which coincidentally comes close to the current CD). Yes, you can lose heat with exhaust but that depletes another resource, can be prevented (cc) or slowed (weakness). And If you're chilled that'd be up to about 16seconds to exit forge while you can't exit it without damaging yourself. Compare that to weapon sets that can still attack, use skills with <10sec CD again and can be kept active longer if needed without any downsides. Without feat support a full heat cool down from 100% takes about 15 seconds. With vent exhaust a dodge shaves off 1,5sec of that, more only if you don't give it time / you haven't generated enough heat (which basically means you spent a considerable part of PF time not using its skills) to reach the faster cooling. If you dodge whenever you can and have perma vigor (~1 dodge / secs) that heat cooling period will be about 12 seconds. Which is still a bit more than normal weapons and results in the holo not being able to make proper use of the low CD of some PF abilities. What I'm trying to say is: there's a lot less wiggle room for heat and more down time & holding back involved in heat management than some think. To be flexible with entering PF sooner again you have to hold back on your big hitters (#5, #4) and heat generators or burn dodges for vent exhaust even when you'd rather keep the endurance for enemy attacks, or hold back with all skills in PF in general for periods of time. A holo that generated a lot if heat, left PF and reenters it too soon will NOT be able to make full use of it. Chill's a pain for holos almost as much as it is for eles (and can pretty much kill it indirectly) and weakness / cc cripples vent exhaust. Entering PF at 40-50% heat left and getting cc'd or chilled might mess up the heat management and prevent the holo from using shockwave for example. Or leave him running around for a few secs not even being able to auto attack because that'd cause overheat.

I agree with your argument though that assuming equal or similar skill (even slightly unequal skill) that this game is more Build Wars 2 than it is about skill. A combination of better build and more favorable playstyle can overcome greater skill. I've seen this dozens of times over. However It's foolish to dismiss how important skill can be, especially for something like dueling or 1v1s which is a somewhat specific scenario that you can become more skilled at. In general, I've found that pvp players (especially the ones who frequent the duel lobbies, and even that free for all arena) tend to have much more practice and experience in dueling, and that's across a wide variety of matchups. They don't just practice A vs. B to death, they practice A vs. B, A vs. C, A vs. D, etc. and often times even practice their matchups on other classes. Yes, the one having more experience in the given build x vs build y matchup likely winning is the first point I made. But it doesn't matter where that dueling experience is coming from. Just as there were active sPvP duel servers, there were dueling "circles" in WvW where you got to practice. And I was talking less about builds countering each other than playstyles countering each other (literally not which build someone runs but how it is played). With two good players fighting each other they'll both have an idea how to approach the fight and what the best tactic is, but the other player might a just and play in a way that makes the assumed best tactic less viable, therefore the other player adjusts again and so on. This is where reading your enemy comes into play: you try to guess your enemy's next moves based on how he played until now. And that gives you an edge if you guess correctly. That kind of "knowing your enemy"-skill is often, but not always, on the same level as a player's mechanical skill. Both come and improve with experience, but players perform differently well with them. And some players just seem to get reads on you and you sometimes get ridiculously good reads on others (no matter how their mechanical skill compares to yours). Sometimes certain players are just very good (or continuously lucky^^) at guessing what another certain player is going to do. I really have no idea but I think it doesn't only have to do with ingame experience but also with their personal character / personality that shows in certain moments, and it's a skill that partly carries over to and from other games. Assuming both options are somewhat equally viable in the given moment (otherwise it would be an "easy" issue of choosing the optimal option), player X might tend to go for a counter strike when pressured, player Y might be more likely to create a gap and heal. But the enemy might assume they are likely to stick to their innate behavior, so a defensive player might go for the counter strike to land unexpected hits etc. At this point you're effectively trying to be unpredictable while predicting your enemy. You don't try to perform perfect executions every time (which might be effective but predictable!), you try to catch your enemies off guard, even if it means playing in a way that theoretically isn't the best way to use your skills. Correct predictions and doing things in an unexpected way makes imperfect plays the deciding factor. Though that also depends on you performing these imperfect/unusual and when it comes unexpected (between your "bad" plays) absolutely perfect plays without unintentionally messing up. And if you mess something up, improvisation skills are required to salvage the situation. Or even benefit from it, because things you didn't want to do have a high chance of having surprised your enemy too :) I think this kind of interaction, employing ever-changing tactics and trying to estimate each others actions (for more details), has become increasingly difficult to spot in GW2 (partly due to the power creep pushing the extremes leading to less fights were builds stand similar chances and this aspect of combat is crucial), but it is still part of the game. And it plays a big role in truly even fights between mechanically apt players. But these are so rare that it's hard to get practice for your yomi skill in this game.

Yes and no. To some extent, especially when starting out, sPvP is great practice. And for brushing up mechanical skill. However, while you get more fights / time, the fights have different goals (holding points and secondary objectives), the builds are different (or don't perform as well or as bad as in WvW), as are the underlying options (gear, runes, sigils, food...). In sPvP you might win a battle but lose the fight (/ round). You'll have to learn and play in WvW to get to know the differences. WvW has more variety (like XvsYvsZ situations, NPCs interfering, water combat, ...) and does a better job at teaching you to react to unusual situations and builds (at least it used to, roamer builds feel less varied these days). The modes really are two different beasts once you get beyond the foundations / the general skill you can apply in both.I agree that nowadays good, instructive fights have become rare (WvW used to have a lot of dedicated duelers). However, in sPvP often rotations are the deciding factor and you get +1'nd before you get into the intricacies of an even fight. I remember getting into sPvP the first time (after only having dabbled in it before) after A LOT of roaming and dueling in WvW: they were the first dozen of games (rating adjusted), so the feeling didn't last, but until I reached rather good ratings on the leaderboard most fights were like "uh, this is really just one or two enemies most of the time, I've had to deal with many more in WvW". While you could expect more challenge from high rated players, having played WvW made me used counter play multiple enemies and not be easily overwhelmed by them. You also get a feeling for how groups move usually, how to bait some in to a dangerous position while avoiding others etc. . Power creep muddled things a bit, but WvW feels more instinctual (because you more often have to deal with a ton of unknown variables popping up), sPvP is more like planned execution of certain tactics and honing these executions to perfection. But sPvP has more limits and situations that go beyond them might be harder for a sPvP to adapt to. In the end, when it comes to a strict 1vs1 encounter (with a hypothetical even matchup of different builds), if both players are good, it doesn't come down to who is a lot or just a bit better in general, but who has more experience with that particular matchup in the given mode, how well they read each other and how their playstyles interact. Sometimes you meet enemies that aren't bad, but also not that good, whose playstyle works really well vs you (this is partly due to the fact that unexpected sub-optimal play can work better than expected optimal play * ). And sometimes you beat players that you know to be better than their performance makes them look. That's why I don't go about claiming a player's bad because he's been beaten by me, even if it seemed easy and/or following encounters end similarly. I only have one perspective and can estimate his skill for that particular matchup I create for him. Said player (and the build) might be doing better than me in a lot of other situations. * A little more detail on that: in case you know Yomi (the game by sirlin), there used to be a "wisdom" on the forums that was basically: top player>veteran>noob>top player. Not that noobs really consistently beat top players more often than not, but they achieved a higher win rate vs them than veterans, due to being less predictable.

@"EremiteAngel.9765" , to deal with / prevent salt: try be nice or at least neutral when whispering. That said it's incredibly hard to get some people to realize they're behaving childishly while not angering them further. I try to ignore whatever motivated me to whisper in the first place (usually something like people ganging up on me with 3+ players and corpse jumping afterwards) and start with a "Hi, do you want to duel?" which is kinda the same message I'd send to friends ingame if I wanted a fight with them. Some still feel the need to insult you after that but at least you know for the moment there's all hope lost there. Sometimes you won't be able to spare someone a snarky comment after they needed to gank you Xvs1 but try to ;)when in doubt and feeling salty, blame the game (including all external factors, even if it's lag), not the player. That way you avoid insulting someone personally while you can still vent about what happened. assume the salty enemy is just someone (you know, still a person) who's just in a bad mood atm. This and the next point help me stay more composed when confronting enemy players. They also help you not harboring animosity towards them for an extended period of time.don't assume malicious intent by default (some people just don't really notice how they behave or know little about the node)don't push people that are already raging (at either you or the game), nothing good will come from it.give advice (instead of or at least as an addition to blaming some for doing something wrong). This instantly turns toxic rants into partially constructive feedbackif you must rage hard, rage about the enemies in your team / map chat and rage about your team in whispers to enemies / guild chat (given it's not guildies you're raging about) or friends on voice chat. They (and if it goes on you) won't feel attacked by it or the replies and it probably won't spark a conversation that results in the participants continuously getting more mad at each other. Since you'll be more willing to listen to them instead of the source of your frustration, the recipients of your venting might also do a better job at helping you to come to the following conclusions:if you notice you're the one beginning to rage, close the game and do something elsedon't play PvP when you're already in a not so good mood. It's a bit like going out and drinking, if you're already not exited about it and then things are not going as you want them to it will be frustrating for you and you'll make it less enjoyable for others. Just to nitpick, especially with the 0 respawn timer and mounts this can be a valid / necessary tactic to prevent enemies from coming back to the fight & prevent a capture even sooner. This and Happy roaming! I personally try to initiate more of those civil whispers, it just always come back the same way. But I do think anonymity won't solve the problem of toxicity (there are many ways to be toxic without chat) but it removes the possibility to get to know people from a different angle and the option to clear up misunderstandings. I'd even argue for seeing enemy names. I've had it happen multiple times that I met enemies, and while maybe a bit salty at first after a few duels, a bit of conversation etc. you left "in peace" and occasionally wave each other when meeting again. The strange thing is, sometimes you see them a couple of weeks / months later, they don't remember who you are and behave salty again. And you're like "hey, I know you, with've been through this already". And a bit of rivalry, salty or friendly (as long as it's not downright toxic), is what spices up WvW fights. I've played some games that block any player interaction other then a selection of emojis and it's just bland. It's impersonal, if the game blocks any interaction that goes beyond its defined mechanics I could as just well play vs AI.

WvW always has been including several playstyles. Zerging up has it's place in WvW, scouting, rroaming, havoc, guild raids with limited sizes etc. too. You're the one trying to tell people there's only "your" right way to play. Incorrect. What I stated is GW2 has a mode that plays more how they want it, but instead they lobby to get a completely different mode turned ito something that more resembles the mode this game ALREADY HAS which fits the description of what they want. If sPvP was a mode that would play more like I want it, I would know. Roaming in WvW has been and still is more fun for me, how is sPvP better suited for me if that's the case? You said: To my understanding in that statement you presented people who roam in contrast to people who play WvW correctly (by running away or zerg rolling you). My conclusion therefore was that you see people roaming as playing the mode incorrectly. You should read that full post rather than snip from it. The context is completely different than what you are taking from it. In the quoted paragraph you first talk about WvW not being a dueling mode. Which is a statement I can agree with. The rest of it is a sports metaphor I assume was meant to drive home the point I quoted. Frankly, while it wasn't laid out in detail, I do not spot a statement in the original post that makes it clear that you didn't mean to say that. The second paragraph addressed an argument made by someone else. Sorry, I may have interpreted a bit too much at that point. Guess it was a case of miscommunication. I didn't deliberately construct an argument (no need to imply I do that ;) ), I misunderstood your statement because it's a complex topic and I read too much between the lines.

WvW always has been including several playstyles. Zerging up has it's place in WvW, scouting, rroaming, havoc, guild raids with limited sizes etc. too. You're the one trying to tell people there's only "your" right way to play. Incorrect. What I stated is GW2 has a mode that plays more how they want it, but instead they lobby to get a completely different mode turned ito something that more resembles the mode this game ALREADY HAS which fits the description of what they want. If sPvP was a mode that would play more like I want it, I would know. Roaming in WvW has been and still is more fun for me, how is sPvP better suited for me if that's the case? You said: To my understanding in that statement you presented people who roam in contrast to people who play WvW correctly (by running away or zerg rolling you). My conclusion therefore was that you see people roaming as playing the mode incorrectly.

One thing to note when you only compare "top" sPvP players with roamers: most of the roamers you're going to meet aren't "top". So it's a no wonder that the best sPvP will beat most WvW roamers, the best WvW roamers will also beat most average sPvP players. Say you compare the top 100 ranked players with hypothetical top 100 roamers: assuming roamers are distributed between servers and maps, there'd be only a few per map and only if they're currently playing and roaming. And then you'd have to meet them open field with even numbers and with builds that are somewhat fair matchups, to really get the impression that player is decent. And then there's still the 33% chance that roamer is on your server, so you're not getting to fight each other. In sPvP there's matchmaking, so when you get better, you get matched against better players. There might be 90% little experienced players in sPvP but you don't get to meet them, whereas in WvW roaming you're dealing with the whole spectrum. This probably plays a big role in people believing that the "average" player in sPvP is generally better, while it's only the average player of those they get to fight that is going to be better. Even though matchmaking isn't perfect, it's just so much more likely to fight players on your level in sPvP when you're above average. Edit: removed math brain fart.

I think he's trying to say that WvW players don't contest points enough and that is the sole reason of them being inferior in a conquest PvP mode. I could agree with that ;)

The scenario I created is pretty much you venturing into enemy territory when roaming and the enemy not being willing to give up his advantage or objective. If you are not going to an objective because someone's following you... nothing happens. Unless someone dismounts and engages, or waits for backup and then does so... If you go to claim an objective my scenario happens. If you assume players to be defensive and staying in the territory they are already controlling well... we're back to nothing happening. And one having to concede the advantage of higher speed by being the one entering enemy territory if they want any action at all. The only case where Warclaw is balanced is between 2 servers moving within a territory controlled by the 3rd one. And that, again, is 2 parties willing to move within a territory where another has the advantage. Yeah, that can happen, but I don't see the point of enemy encounters in a PvP mode having 0 impact on the map and having no interactivity between you and the enemy to speak of. I get that some people don't want to fight certain other people under certain circumstances but let there be something happening between those anyway. E.g. an interesting chase to the next objective where the fleeing players can try to get to... This was happening before the mount was introduced, if you're on a zerg build you moved carefully, close to your objectives, waited for more people to move with you, made use of all of your skills to disengage from a fight etc. Sometimes you succeeded and sometimes not. And while a zerg build usually doesn't do well vs roaming specs it used to be an accomplishment for them to get away or to their zerg. Or they could outplay them with the build anyway. With the mount such encounters are uninteresting and unfun. You basically press forward and dodge if something big's flying at you. That's it, 2 buttons. Most of the time enemies can literally move through you when they haven't wasted their dodges, they don't even need to curve from your position more than the slightest bit. You don't even slow them. You're encountering enemies but other than them having to time 2-3 button presses your presence has zero impact. Due to this getting somewhere on the map is barely a challenge anymore. Making it to north camp on alpine borders when there were a couple of enemy roamers around in itself was a little win, because you probably had to win a few fights or do some successful jukes when disengaging to get there. Now you just ride there. Enemy encounters should matter, they should be a challenge and have an impact. Not "Eh, just run by each other if just one doesn't feel like it".Warclaw doesn't make WvW unplayable but it is a wrong direction and indicates a lack of understanding (or at least the unwillingness to finish the mechanic and proper counter play options before introducing it) for the game mode by the developers. And the track record of ANet isn't good when it comes to making new stuff work well in WvW, because they always seem to disregard some of the playstyles it contains. -As I explained several times, that is about speed of the mount, or people defending objectives (I still do not have anything against defenders advantage, but seems like you do?) or any 100 of other things that creates this stalemate for some people (I still jump in, if only 1 opponent in camp). Not actually un-mounting=dis-advantage....That is exactly why it is weird, obviously 1 party want to fight, at least alone the other obviously do not, so they have to have 100000 guards before un-mounting becomes a dis-advantage? Sorry, but it is straight up weird, and the stalemate requires way more than just un-mounting (1 party not wanting to fight, NPC's, gankers), and has nothing to do with actual dis-mounting first gives a dis-advantage. I am basically trying to Isolate un-mounting, where the main focus is not 50 gankers or 10 npc's inside a keep because you want to solo it, but 2 people who want to fight each other. No, my point is that being or remaining on the mount longer than the enemy is pretty much always an advantage. And if no one wants to give up that advantage no one fights. This is the stalemate: 2 players meeting and none getting of the mount. If the enemy doesn't want to fight, and you move on to cap a camp, the process of doing so again puts you at a disadvantage because the enemy can follow and then add to the fight while you're busy fighting NPCs. And you can't force a fight with the enemy before attacking the camp because he can keep mounted and jump away, just to come back again.But yes, I don't like the "defenders advantage" when it comes to open field fights because it discourages starting them, and I like to fight in WvW. I don't really get how that rotated scenario is supposed to look like, can you try to describe that in more detail? I get that there are zerg and roaming builds. And yes, I think roamers should be able to interfere with people running back to the zerg to some extent. While taking down one zergling running to his zerg isn't an interesting fight, they usually tend to stack up and become more, until at some point you have to retreat or die. And if they know some roamers are there, they could always just wait for a couple people more to show up. I get that getting picked off isn't funny, as a roamer you get rolled over by a zergs too. Both these things are part of WvW. You're not supposed to have a safety net that prevents any situation in which your build isn't 100% effective. At least that's not what I think open world(-ish) PvP is about. That's why I don't like the mount, it's a tool for avoiding any uncomfortable situation in which you might have to deal with a disadvantage. It takes a lot of danger & excitement out of WvW. While Warclaw can be used to avoid unfair fights stacked against you, it can also be used to avoid any fair fights and force unfair fights stacked in your favor. E.g. some zerglings just skip you with mount to turn around and come back to gank you when they notice some more people from their server are showing up. If you look exclusively at roamer vs roamer fights (without making the scenario complicated), it just encourages skipping any encounter you aren't sure is a favorable matchup for you. Some people will only participate in fights they know they'll win. Imagine there'd be a q for sPvP where plat players could choose to only get matches against silver or bronze. That's what roaming feels like from time to time now. Some gang up and chase unprepared and outnumbered players, dismount them with specialized range builds, and gank them. If you and / or a couple of other players go after them and would actually put up a fight, they mount and run because you aren't free kills. [...]Honestly, at this point I think we just fail to understand each other. I don't really get the point of your arguments and it seems to me you're not grasping what I'm trying to say either. Maybe we're just stuck looking at this from different angles. If someone out there reading through this gets both our views and can think up a way to summarize it in a comprehensible way I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, I probably said everything I wanted to say and going further would just be an argument for the sake of it.

The scenario I created is pretty much you venturing into enemy territory when roaming and the enemy not being willing to give up his advantage or objective. If you are not going to an objective because someone's following you... nothing happens. Unless someone dismounts and engages, or waits for backup and then does so... If you go to claim an objective my scenario happens. If you assume players to be defensive and staying in the territory they are already controlling well... we're back to nothing happening. And one having to concede the advantage of higher speed by being the one entering enemy territory if they want any action at all. The only case where Warclaw is balanced is between 2 servers moving within a territory controlled by the 3rd one. And that, again, is 2 parties willing to move within a territory where another has the advantage. Yeah, that can happen, but I don't see the point of enemy encounters in a PvP mode having 0 impact on the map and having no interactivity between you and the enemy to speak of. I get that some people don't want to fight certain other people under certain circumstances but let there be something happening between those anyway. E.g. an interesting chase to the next objective where the fleeing players can try to get to... This was happening before the mount was introduced, if you're on a zerg build you moved carefully, close to your objectives, waited for more people to move with you, made use of all of your skills to disengage from a fight etc. Sometimes you succeeded and sometimes not. And while a zerg build usually doesn't do well vs roaming specs it used to be an accomplishment for them to get away or to their zerg. Or they could outplay them with the build anyway. With the mount such encounters are uninteresting and unfun. You basically press forward and dodge if something big's flying at you. That's it, 2 buttons. Most of the time enemies can literally move through you when they haven't wasted their dodges, they don't even need to curve from your position more than the slightest bit. You don't even slow them. You're encountering enemies but other than them having to time 2-3 button presses your presence has zero impact. Due to this getting somewhere on the map is barely a challenge anymore. Making it to north camp on alpine borders when there were a couple of enemy roamers around in itself was a little win, because you probably had to win a few fights or do some successful jukes when disengaging to get there. Now you just ride there. Enemy encounters should matter, they should be a challenge and have an impact. Not "Eh, just run by each other if just one doesn't feel like it".Warclaw doesn't make WvW unplayable but it is a wrong direction and indicates a lack of understanding (or at least the unwillingness to finish the mechanic and proper counter play options before introducing it) for the game mode by the developers. And the track record of ANet isn't good when it comes to making new stuff work well in WvW, because they always seem to disregard some of the playstyles it contains. -As I explained several times, that is about speed of the mount, or people defending objectives (I still do not have anything against defenders advantage, but seems like you do?) or any 100 of other things that creates this stalemate for some people (I still jump in, if only 1 opponent in camp). Not actually un-mounting=dis-advantage....That is exactly why it is weird, obviously 1 party want to fight, at least alone the other obviously do not, so they have to have 100000 guards before un-mounting becomes a dis-advantage? Sorry, but it is straight up weird, and the stalemate requires way more than just un-mounting (1 party not wanting to fight, NPC's, gankers), and has nothing to do with actual dis-mounting first gives a dis-advantage. I am basically trying to Isolate un-mounting, where the main focus is not 50 gankers or 10 npc's inside a keep because you want to solo it, but 2 people who want to fight each other. No, my point is that being or remaining on the mount longer than the enemy is pretty much always an advantage. And if no one wants to give up that advantage no one fights. This is the stalemate: 2 players meeting and none getting of the mount. If the enemy doesn't want to fight, and you move on to cap a camp, the process of doing so again puts you at a disadvantage because the enemy can follow and then add to the fight while you're busy fighting NPCs. And you can't force a fight with the enemy before attacking the camp because he can keep mounted and jump away, just to come back again.But yes, I don't like the "defenders advantage" when it comes to open field fights because it discourages starting them, and I like to fight in WvW. I don't really get how that rotated scenario is supposed to look like, can you try to describe that in more detail? I get that there are zerg and roaming builds. And yes, I think roamers should be able to interfere with people running back to the zerg to some extent. While taking down one zergling running to his zerg isn't an interesting fight, they usually tend to stack up and become more, until at some point you have to retreat or die. And if they know some roamers are there, they could always just wait for a couple people more to show up. I get that getting picked off isn't funny, as a roamer you get rolled over by a zergs too. Both these things are part of WvW. You're not supposed to have a safety net that prevents any situation in which your build isn't 100% effective. At least that's not what I think open world(-ish) PvP is about. That's why I don't like the mount, it's a tool for avoiding any uncomfortable situation in which you might have to deal with a disadvantage. It takes a lot of danger & excitement out of WvW. While Warclaw can be used to avoid unfair fights stacked against you, it can also be used to avoid any fair fights and force unfair fights stacked in your favor. E.g. some zerglings just skip you with mount to turn around and come back to gank you when they notice some more people from their server are showing up. If you look exclusively at roamer vs roamer fights (without making the scenario complicated), it just encourages skipping any encounter you aren't sure is a favorable matchup for you. Some people will only participate in fights they know they'll win. Imagine there'd be a q for sPvP where plat players could choose to only get matches against silver or bronze. That's what roaming feels like from time to time now. Some gang up and chase unprepared and outnumbered players, dismount them with specialized range builds, and gank them. If you and / or a couple of other players go after them and would actually put up a fight, they mount and run because you aren't free kills.

Ironic, that they won't play the actual mode where rolling over enemies with a overwhelming force earns more rewards (hint: PvE), and instead lobby for a completely different mode to be changed to fit their description instead. WvW always has been including several playstyles. Zerging up has it's place in WvW, scouting, rroaming, havoc, guild raids with limited sizes etc. too. You're the one trying to tell people there's only "your" right way to play.

The scenario I created is pretty much you venturing into enemy territory when roaming and the enemy not being willing to give up his advantage or objective. If you are not going to an objective because someone's following you... nothing happens. Unless someone dismounts and engages, or waits for backup and then does so... If you go to claim an objective my scenario happens. If you assume players to be defensive and staying in the territory they are already controlling well... we're back to nothing happening. And one having to concede the advantage of higher speed by being the one entering enemy territory if they want any action at all. The only case where Warclaw is balanced is between 2 servers moving within a territory controlled by the 3rd one. And that, again, is 2 parties willing to move within a territory where another has the advantage. Yeah, that can happen, but I don't see the point of enemy encounters in a PvP mode having 0 impact on the map and having no interactivity between you and the enemy to speak of. I get that some people don't want to fight certain other people under certain circumstances but let there be something happening between those anyway. E.g. an interesting chase to the next objective where the fleeing players can try to get to... This was happening before the mount was introduced, if you're on a zerg build you moved carefully, close to your objectives, waited for more people to move with you, made use of all of your skills to disengage from a fight etc. Sometimes you succeeded and sometimes not. And while a zerg build usually doesn't do well vs roaming specs it used to be an accomplishment for them to get away or to their zerg. Or they could outplay them with the build anyway. With the mount such encounters are uninteresting and unfun. You basically press forward and dodge if something big's flying at you. That's it, 2 buttons. Most of the time enemies can literally move through you when they haven't wasted their dodges, they don't even need to curve from your position more than the slightest bit. You don't even slow them. You're encountering enemies but other than them having to time 2-3 button presses your presence has zero impact. Due to this getting somewhere on the map is barely a challenge anymore. Making it to north camp on alpine borders when there were a couple of enemy roamers around in itself was a little win, because you probably had to win a few fights or do some successful jukes when disengaging to get there. Now you just ride there. Enemy encounters should matter, they should be a challenge and have an impact. Not "Eh, just run by each other if just one doesn't feel like it".Warclaw doesn't make WvW unplayable but it is a wrong direction and indicates a lack of understanding (or at least the unwillingness to finish the mechanic and proper counter play options before introducing it) for the game mode by the developers. And the track record of ANet isn't good when it comes to making new stuff work well in WvW, because they always seem to disregard some of the playstyles it contains.

This can be easily circumvented by not dismounting with the attack, but with the dismount skill, which is instant and allows you to follow up with attacks from any range immediately. You don't need to attack, but dismounting already puts you in a worse position than your enemy. For 5 seconds you don't have the opportunity to mount up to retain speed, dodges and extra HP. Just waiting for the enemy to either leave or willingly dismount and fight can go south too. Because enemies can stay near you on mount while you move on to the next objective. You can't drive them away without investing resources (which would put them at an advantage should they choose to fight then) and if you don't they'll just wait for you to be vulnerable (fighting guards, or more people arrive) and then mount off and engage you. Should you gain reinforcements they can just disengage (something else you'd give up by dismounting). This playstyle was possible in the past for a couple of popular roaming builds (primarily those utilizing stealth & mobility), but it required investing resources and generally was more interactive than just running and dodging with mounts. That also made it take more time to recover and come back ready to fight for them and they were more vulnerable when engaging. Being able to easily stall, disengage and reengage until a situation favors you without investing resources you need for a fight itself is bad design. First part was meant as you either can't/don't want to attack with 3 dodges and 10k health + if you do, animation. But yeah they can decide to simply not use the claws, which would mean they do want to fight which creates no dis-advantage for anyoneThe one who dismounts later still has better control over the relative positioning & distance the fight starts at. Explain to me how that doesn't result in a disadvantage for the unmounted player. It is not a weird scenario (I don't get why the first one would be one either), it's one I sometimes experience multiple times a day (though it depends a bit on the servers you fight). Enemies you encounter in open field who know they might be going to lose a 1on1 stay on their mount, but keep following you. If you pull a camp (yes, that generally puts you at a disadvantage because you have more enemies to fight, you are in combat and probably spend some resources to kill or survive vs the NPCs) or another enemy engages you they join the fight. If you attack them while they follow you they run, get out of combat and come back. Some literally wait until you get downed by their already outnumbering server mates and finish you for the fun of it. And that all has do with the mount because the mounts make it easier to get and remain (or dis- and reengage when threatened) close to someone with nearly zero risk and no resource investment that detracts from their fighting capability. If they'd do it from further away you'd have more time to react to their advance, if they'd have to stick to towers they'd be bound to certain locations. As I said, this playstyle isn't new, but it was made easy and resource free to perform. The point is you now can choose to pretty much only participate in fights you have an advantage in. And you have a tool that allows you to stick to people and wait for such a situation to come up that is close to impossible to counterplay for small groups of enemies. The fact that the defender gets the advantage means if no one is willing to fight at a disadvantage there's not gonna be a fight. Some "alpha strike" builds that relied on getting the drop on someone unsuspecting had a notable aggressor's advantage in the past, but that could be counterplayed and mounts made it swing way too far in the other direction. Someone wanted to be totally safe from being attacked teleported at sight and thereby had to give up the position on the map. You can still have good fights: you can catch people while claiming objectives and some players will dismount, wait a bit, bow if they want it to be a duel, and fight you directly without the advantage the mount could give them. But the latter is just courtesy, players not wanting to rely on the mount advantage or sometimes them not knowing how to utilize the it properly. Most players also won't stalk you for long because they get tired of it. And some enemies might be taken off mounts because they don't expect it and you'll still be able to best them afterwards because you run a stronger build and / or have more experience at fighting smallscale and 1on1s. But that doesn't change the fact that the mount facilitates more uneven fights and stalemates, should both sides insist on not giving up any of the benefits mounts can provide.

You might find the flawed argument in your first paragraph if you consider what you wrote in the second one. Going after roamers with a superior force is not strategically sound because you invest a lot of players' time to counter a much smaller number of enemies. If they have somewhat similar numbers total on the map you're leaving a lot of objectives wide open. Zerg rolling players is bad WvW (in the sense of PPT / warscore) play. That's why small fights matter very much when there's numerical balance. Winning an even fight is a net benefit, outnumbering enemies too much for too long only "works" / is good if you really need the numbers to win and your enemies don't have as much players total (otherwise the split groups might cap multiple objectives because you lack defenders there). And if you have a numerical advantage that's be the equivalent to playing sPvP 5vs3 with 2 1on1 fights and 3 people always going after the last one. Yeah, that might be a valid tactic, but it only works because you have much more players. Mono-zerging's only a viable tactic when you can frequently beat the other mono-zerg. Zergs splitting up (and having scouts report the enemy position so they can merge for a clash), havoc teams hitting undefended objectives and roamers cutting off supplies, few defenders stalling enemy sieges etc. is much more efficient. It's only that that doesn't show often anymore because coverage and active players trump those strategies in the long run. And the lack of commanders and lack of own initiative often makes people blob up and feed the enemy (which might have a larger or better organized zerg) points.

This can be easily circumvented by not dismounting with the attack, but with the dismount skill, which is instant and allows you to follow up with attacks from any range immediately. You don't need to attack, but dismounting already puts you in a worse position than your enemy. For 5 seconds you don't have the opportunity to mount up to retain speed, dodges and extra HP. Just waiting for the enemy to either leave or willingly dismount and fight can go south too. Because enemies can stay near you on mount while you move on to the next objective. You can't drive them away without investing resources (which would put them at an advantage should they choose to fight then) and if you don't they'll just wait for you to be vulnerable (fighting guards, or more people arrive) and then mount off and engage you. Should you gain reinforcements they can just disengage (something else you'd give up by dismounting). This playstyle was possible in the past for a couple of popular roaming builds (primarily those utilizing stealth & mobility), but it required investing resources and generally was more interactive than just running and dodging with mounts. That also made it take more time to recover and come back ready to fight for them and they were more vulnerable when engaging. Being able to easily stall, disengage and reengage until a situation favors you without investing resources you need for a fight itself is bad design.

Solo roaming is impossible now, people are "roaming" in packs of soulbeasts + FB + scrappers, even if you manage to down one, they just need to press a stab button + f and voilá. Solo roaming is still quite possible. Basically the whole playstyle got nerfed with Warclaw, yes, but there're still enough people around to fight (best to get them at objectives) and there are some players who are willing to start a fight without Warclaw.

Different environments, different builds (at least when it comes to gear and stats). I do sPvP occasionally and do not think I'm doing bad (I usually rank in the higher half of plat), but vs someone at the top of the leaderboards who played sPvP mostly you notice you're fighting on "their turf" instead of in a familiar context. This especially shows with map knowledge (kiting and jump spots) and what I'd call knowing "thresholds" in terms of how much beating you can take and dish out vs. certain other builds. And then there are some actual balance differences between sPvP and WvW for some reason (war's endure pain is a big one as the pace of the fight becomes a different one with 2 short EP procs instead of less frequent, longer ones). sPvP also feels quite cramped compared to WvW and the more compact map layout favors some builds over others. On the other hand I met some high ranking sPvP players in WvW in the past who struggled to apply their skills there. Some of them shine more through rotation and map awareness in sPvP and are decent, but not exceptional at mechanical / personal skill in duels. But sPvP and WvW roaming are not mutually exclusive and I know roamers who became (or always were, I don't know the history of them all) very good sPvP players and sPvP players who're very proficient at WvW roaming & smallscale.

Dum dum dum... After I game back to the game once again after a few months break to check the mount & No Downed State week, here's some footage from the event:

I'm running a pretty offensive SD holo (with some tough and vit so I don't drop instantly and have time for heal combos), so this might be a varying perspective to "meta" holo builds.What usually gives me a harder time are DPS builds with more iframes, unblockables and high damage. Basically anything that lays out a lot of pressure fast and / or consistently and doesn't make itself vulnerable doing so. Since the elixir S proc removal I have much more respect for zerker builds, because while they are squishy, most classes have more iframes than engi and they can finish me before I get to play my strengths. Berserker War with Rifle and unblockable signet: I have 2-3 (energy sigil) dodges (during which I can't really pressure the war) and then it's a DPS race. Which I'm likely gonna lose due to endure pain, stabi prevents me from using CC to stall the fight. And yes Rifle, because vs any other war you can kite to wait out the stances. You very much want cover in this matchup.Power Rev: simply does a lot of damage and does well at disengaging and engaging again. This matchup swings to extremes both ways, but if a rev gets his rotations down well you can neither kite nor counter heal because your heal combos won't outheal the damage of sword AA. A well placed, offensive staff #5 wrecks holo, because even if you have a stack of stab from corona it will knock you down and deal considerable damage. Phase traversal can catch you of guard too when you're currently relying on Photon wall to defend yourself.Deadeyes (in open field) that actually use Sniper's cover as... cover. They can stay out of melee range well enough and anything ranged is a projectile prone to be negated by sniper's cover (it often being unable to spot and projectiles just disappearing without any "blocked" shown makes this a very annoying skill). Ports can get them to ledges, stealth allows them to reset. Most cases can be drawn out into a draw but they can manage to disengage and a well executed combo (and RNGesus provinding high crits) will bring you down. Though tbh I haven't seen so many after the nerfs and mount introduction at all, 1 or 2 still proved deadly.Offensive Soul-/boonbeasts: hits hard and has a lot of tools to prevent death. Excluding pewpews because their opening is survivable most of the time if you don't get surprised and once you get close LB becomes a sub par weapon. The deal breaker with Slb is axe with good chill and weakness uptime and good damage pressure. Meanwhile stances keep them alive well.Honorable mentions to FA eles (with focus -> invuln+projectile hate) and mediguards / DHs (dangerous instant burst, coupled with sustain and a couple of projectile negating skills) which used to be dangerous in the past but are mostly easy to deal with now due to nerfs to their damage. I'd still be very careful around full zerk versions of those builds though.Anything able to chain CCs can get dangerous as well due to my build only running 1 stun break. Corona provides stab only if it hits. Prime example is a core war with rampage: if I don't have Photon wall or flash shell ready I'm toast, and either can be countered with certain warrior utilities (SoH / berserker stance -> resistance, Signet of Might -> unblockable). I'll be coming back to this: what you want to do vs holos is a strong assault covered by utility / defense so they can't counterplay it.Dagger storm. Sounds stupid but when you count a dozen dodges and risk being at around 2/3 health, getting ready to punish a thief once he finally runs out of them and he then dagger storms a chunk of burst back to your face, interrupts heal with steal... situation might go south. Bonus points for improvisation making the CD of dagger storm random. Probably limited to my specific build because others don't throw as much projectiles around.For condi: Just necro, pretty much. Yes, most of the times you can kite them but ones that use corrupts well overload you with so many conditions that you can not kite or damage them effectively. In confined spaces definitely a threat.Mirage hardly anymore, bare the rare exceptional player. While the condi burst is hard, when you survive you have good changes of fighting back (compared to a necro who keeps counter-corrupting anything) or kite and heal up. If a mirage tries to keep up with you they usually have to burn ports, which makes them more vulnerable and they're less likely to have one for the next burst. Getting distance from illusions means their burst becomes predictable.What's usually easier: Anything that can be kited or can't keep up the pressure while you take your time to heal. Builds that just can't finish the job because their damage is just a bit too low and eventually you burn through their defenses. Longer fights usually favor holo because they have few high CDs and they can keep up damage and healing. Generally speaking, what I think makes players with builds that would be capable of succeeding lose vs me is that most people are getting intimidated by the damage. Someone turning their back on you while your're most vulnerable (e.g. charging in PF, no stab yet) means they pass their opportunity to punish you. Most builds don't manage a drawn out fight vs a holo so the plan should be to be more aggressive, not to cling to your defenses which likely run out before a holo's offensive options do.I also try to heal up when my enemies do (or when they kite) to prevent interrupts, HT is awesome but if someone with decent damage is on top of you while you try to combo for more healing you'll receive more damage than you heal (and even risk the turret getting destroyed before the 2nd half of the heal activates, which also leaves you without a water field to combo).What you want to do vs holo is being offensive while covering your attacks with defensive utilities / soft / hard CC so you deny the holo the opportunity to out-trade you in damage. This is what made mirages (and still makes some of them) a pain to fight: they can dodge and chain distortion while not stopping their assault. This is one of the hardest playstyles for holo to face, imo.

I agree there needs to be some consensus on how to actually rank the classes. But if you take random fights in WvW and not white room scenarios with a specific location and rule set outcomes will differ a lot. E.g. what range does a fight start with? Is there cover? Water? NPCs? Height differences (ledges)? etc. I guess this poll mostly captures a general feeling of what is hard to fight against. Especially if you assume point 4. to be true with everyone being god level skilled the determining factor will always be a combination environment and the specific matchup. Every class will have a bad matchup and/or environment that doesn't favor it. You could then say class X has the most favorable matchups in most environments, therefore it's the strongest, but then people would adapt by playing more builds with favorable match ups against that class and it wouldn't be that strong in practice anymore. So as long as a build doesn't have any unfavorable match ups and every class has a build with at least a few favorable match ups (and isn't completely overshaded in every aspect by another one) every class has a place (even if it's just a niche) in roaming.

I say nerf in favor of removing rally.