STIHL.2489

Long Story Short, they are saying "If you bothered to look at any other part of this forum, you would know that it's all about the loot"

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens. But.. they have already admitted that without the loot, they won't do the content.. so.. Check out all the threads about PoF meta events and bounties. The number one reason for not doing those is "rewards" so I guess adding new events in the game with bad rewards helped a lot with PoF right? Thank you very much, for validating what we already know, that it is all about the loot. The challenge is by and large irrelevant, unless it serves the purpose to gate the loot away from people the elitist feel are undeserving. This is why, there is such a fuss about gold/hour rewards, and farms among that same group of players. So, tell me, how much easier would bounties need to be to make them a "decent" loot/effort ratio? Every piece of content needs appropriate rewards. They don't need to make bounties easier, they need to make them more rewarding for their current difficulty, same with every other piece of content. The easiest way to balance rewards among content is to give each piece of content its own rewards, because balancing the gold income is impossible. There are two ways to handle reward. Adjust the difficulty of the Content.Adjust the Reward.Now arguably, it would seem easier to just adjust the reward, then to change the difficult of an event. But both have happened. None the less, if the reward does not feel equal to the effort, either it needs to take less effort or give more reward. This is where we split. See people who only think about the loot, would focus on the reward aspect of adjustment, what they get for their time, the people looking to enjoy the game, would focus on how hard or easy an encounter is, and want to adjust that to be the most enjoyable, regardless of reward. Which brings us to, what is really hard or challenging. I see all to often people fuss that rewards for T4 fracatls need to be more then World Bosses, because the bosses are too easy. Ok.. fair statement from an individual point of view. But, can you beat Teq with only 5 people? Often times it takes upward to 40+ people to have an effective drop, and just because some elitist players run around doing nothing, contribute only to the scaling, does not in fact mean the encounter is easy, it means it's easy to hide that you are dead weight. There is a massive difference between those two things. The encounter itself is impossible for 5 people to do, no matter what their DPS, or gear, we both know this, and I encourage you to try and prove me wrong. As such, since it is in fact harder then any fractal out there, then by the logic of difficulty/reward, it should reward better loot. But I am going to bet you will disagree with that. And while, you may fall back on "well, it was easy for me, I didn't have to do anything" again, that does not make Teq easy or even easier then any raid out here, it just means it was easier for you to be totally worthless in larger world boss events, and not be directly noticed. Much in the same way, I have carried people though T2 and T3 fractals, I am sure they felt "oh this is easy" well.. when you are being carried by people better then you, doing more then you, then yes.. .. things can seem easy. And that is what all these elitist talk about when they discuss how easy world bosses are.. they are just dead weight being carried by a larger group that is putting in far more effort to win, then they are. So, when we talk about Difficulty, the scales can and are very deceiving on what should be rewarding better stuff, which is why it is very hard to judge objectivaly what should provide what reward. As everyone feels their gamemode should provide the best rewards. Case in point, I could take the stand that because I love WvW, I think because of that PvP challenge which will always be harder then any scripted PvE encounter, it should give the best rewards in the game.. and I would not be wrong in believing that. I am sure people who love raids, people who love world bosses, people who love map exploration, people who love jump puzzles.. could all say the same thing "My content is difficult, it should offer the best rewards" and, truth is, no one is special in this regard, everyone feels this way. And. in may ways, they are right... at least in their own minds. But.. they are playing what they enjoy, they are not simply pursuing the rewards. Anyone that is only pursuing rewards, or will only do content for the rewards, really has no other thought on their mind, loot drives them to do the content, in short, Loot is their only focus, thus, the second they talk about anything else... Loot remains their underlying motive. When they make a request for harder content, and then there is the "Oh yah.. it's harder so I expect to get better loot" it's pretty painfully clear, they were just thinking about how to get more/better loot..and figured to try to hide their true intentions behind "Oh I just want challenge" No one believes them.. no one, why do you think developers dangle the shinie in the first place? yah, they screw up sometimes, like they really screwed up WvW, I mean the rewards are needed to keep the game mode alive, but, now it's infected by PvE scrubs taking up our limited slots while trying to farm reward tracks, and not contributing a damn thing to the map.

Like this has not been said a million times already.. but.. Mount Skins.. Race Themed. No.. not Nascar.. but like "Sylvari themed Skins" - yah..just make them all plant based looking.. and we good.. Asura Theme - AKA: Glowing Golem Skins. Charr Theme - AKA: Steam Punk styled stuff. Norn - Santa and his.. Humm ginormous beasts of war.. I guess.. wel anyway.. that is my request...

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens. But.. they have already admitted that without the loot, they won't do the content.. so.. Check out all the threads about PoF meta events and bounties. The number one reason for not doing those is "rewards" so I guess adding new events in the game with bad rewards helped a lot with PoF right?Thank you very much, for validating what we already know, that it is all about the loot. The challenge is by and large irrelevant, unless it serves the purpose to gate the loot away from people the elitist feel are undeserving. This is why, there is such a fuss about gold/hour rewards, and farms among that same group of players. So, tell me, how much easier would bounties need to be to make them a "decent" loot/effort ratio?

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens. But.. they have already admitted that without the loot, they won't do the content.. so..

It's been years since I have played a single player game. With that said, I have too often seen the same rehashed statements said over and over again, about how it is the challenge and not the loot, and with out a doubt across ever game, eventually, often because the content gets put in, and the veil gets stripped away and it becomes evident that it was all about the loot, all along. do I ever believe that some people do things purely for the challenge.. of course.. do I believe those people would come to the forums, and wail and wallow about wanting more challenge coupled with "rewarding" loot.. Never.

If the request is for harder content, and that content to provide better or exclusive rewards, then, no matter how you slice it, the driving motive behind the request is elitism, nothing else, there is absolutely zero other motives. Sure people may try to play off some kind of other more noble motive, but once you strip away the cliches, and the parroting, it really comes down to a single minded focus "I want something the plebes can't get, because I feel I am better then them, and want something to prove it" now, some people have been honest enough to just admit, and once they do, we spare ourselves the prattling about how that is not the real underlying motive, and get right to.. "why should they get this". It's hard, because most people don't want to face how ignoble their goals are, it hard some days to realize that, the emotive really is that petty. That the only way some people can have fun, is if they are denying other people the same ability to enjoy the game. I get it, no one wants to really be exposed as being that shallow, so all kinds of parroted and red herrings get tossed up, that, that is not their motive. But, strip away the loot, and they will all, every last one of them, admit that it's not worth doing. Ergo.. is not, nor has or will be.. a love of the challenge. At least as never among the people that ask for it that way. The people that love the game for the game, like the WvW players, first played the content, loved the content, wanted more of it, and there is nothing wrong with expecting content to at least be as rewarding as their PvE counter part. In that case, it was asking for equal rewards, not better.. not more.. equal. Lets talk about challenge for a bit. Not buying it, after all the crying about removing WvW map completion to get legendary weapons because it was too hard, to come back and ask for more challenging content, Nahhhh.. sorry. Not buying that song, at all. Again, sounds like nothing but some farmer wanting something to either sell for a lot on the BL, or some elitist who wants something to flaunt

Just loot at what happened on my other topic, people became so inconsolable and petty about a jump puzzle at a stupid campy festival, fusing about how it would invalidate how great they are, or some such nonsense. It's better to admit your real motive. With that said, really, did you miss what game you were playing? Being great at GW2 is like being the fastest person in a Marching Band, or having the best tan at a goth festival. Are you catching what I am laying down here? lets get clear, if you wanted challenging content, there are a legion of other MMOs out there, GW2, by its inception was never about placating peoples vanity and ego, it was about designing a game around fun first. PvE in GW2, is like the retirement home of MMO's, you know, where people go to get away from the real challenging MMOs out there, To come here and ask for more challenge, like dude, if you wanted challenge , why did you come here? That is like going to the dog park looking for a place to run... that is like taking your fishing pole to a vacation at the dead sea.. are you getting what I am laying down here? As such, if you are coming here asking for challenge, your motive is really just ask for loot you don't want other people to get. Ergo.. it's all about the loot. Humm.. Nope.. refuse to play a thief (an I'll be damned if I will play one long enough to get an elite spec).. tried with an Ele with Traveler Runes.. still not much luck..

Lets get this clear, you asked about if people play this game for greater challenge with less reward. and yes they do. You don't get to move the goal posts because you got shot down. My gripe is when people ask for "Challenge" under the disguise of really wanting 'More/Better/Special" loot. Sorry, that is just dishonest. If you just want loot, get back to grinding with everyone else. Don't ask for "challenge" when what you really was is more loot. Ask for more loot, and be upfront with your real motive. That should not be to much ask for anyone, to at least be legit about what they really want. Also, lets get this clear, if you are fretting over Gold/Hour, your still at work, an treating the game like it's your job, and fusing about how much you are getting paid to play. Just go find the best Gold/Hour grind and do that, there is no need to ask for anything more from the game, when that is all you wanted to start with. Killing Awakened won't get me to finish the Labyrinth race in under 2 minutes. I really need a mount to pull that one off. But I was rather amazed (and not in a good way) at how pithy people were about some stupid JP award regarding a campy little festival like the Mad King.

That would be an amazing train-wreck to watch. Not a single game designer would do that of-course but gw2 is special so there is hope. Eh? I can name two Top title MMO's that already do this. Name them. And the type of content. Since you asked. Dungeons and Dragons Online. MMO, mainly Instance based dungeons and raids, with some minor 'open world' areas. It's F2P and pretty much one of the first major MMO's to go F2P. It set the stage for most other MMO's to follow. Feel free to check it out. It followers 3ed rules and has one of the most diverse build systems of any MMO out, and I assure, if you enjoy dungeon and raid content, you will not be let down. Trove. don't let the voxel graphics fool you, it is a very open sandbox MMO with all the features you wish other MMOs had, everything from kitten near endless Open World content with meta events like massive dragon fights, to grinding dragon mounts, as well as Instance based raid like content. It's also free to play, so drop on down and give it a try. Since in Trove, you need to get to around 16K power, before you start to see the horizontal loot for increased difficulty, it might be a bit before it dawns on you how the game is set up. Both of these MMO's have released multiple expansions, so they are doing quite well. Believe it or not.. I've been around a bit.. played a few other games.. ya know.. maybe I know what I am talking about. To be fair, as much as I thought DDO had a lot going for it, and I did enjoy it, I wouldn't necessarily call it a top title MMO.I'm not going to split hairs over what someone way feel is a "top title MMO", But DDO, it's still rocking after 11 years, and putting out it's 3rd expansion, it was owned by Warner brothers, and possess one of the most legendary IP's around., that alone would make it a top title MMO, .. but there is NO other MMO you ever play that has a dungeon narrated by Gary Gygax.

That would be an amazing train-wreck to watch. Not a single game designer would do that of-course but gw2 is special so there is hope. Eh? I can name two Top title MMO's that already do this. Name them. And the type of content.Since you asked. Dungeons and Dragons Online. MMO, mainly Instance based dungeons and raids, with some minor 'open world' areas. It's F2P and pretty much one of the first major MMO's to go F2P. It set the stage for most other MMO's to follow. Feel free to check it out. It followers 3ed rules and has one of the most diverse build systems of any MMO out, and I assure, if you enjoy dungeon and raid content, you will not be let down. Trove. don't let the voxel graphics fool you, it is a very open sandbox MMO with all the features you wish other MMOs had, everything from damn near endless Open World content with meta events like massive dragon fights, to grinding dragon mounts, as well as Instance based raid like content. It's also free to play, so drop on down and give it a try. Since in Trove, you need to get to around 16K power, before you start to see the horizontal loot for increased difficulty, it might be a bit before it dawns on you how the game is set up. Both of these MMO's have released multiple expansions, so they are doing quite well. Believe it or not.. I've been around a bit.. played a few other games.. ya know.. maybe I know what I am talking about.

Which would mean "Don't make it whatsoever". Picture this:Queensdale. Shadow Behemoth. Hard Mode.Now it's going to be the same fight, just harder with maybe new attacks and doing more damage and more HP.Same exact loot like the normal one.Now except for those that's in it just for the challenge, how many people would be interested in really doing a longer battled Shadow Behemoth for the same reward?Already have people who refuse to play with certain people in fractals/raids because it takes too long. Not sure which audience they would be catering to do more work for the same pay as someone who does little work and get the same payment in the end. Hey, people keep asking for hard mode. If they want hard mode, if there's demand for it, then that's fine, give it to them. If they just want better loot than other people get, then they should ask for that instead, and be refused. The expectation in games that assign loot for completing challenges is that higher levels of challenge equate to more/better rewards. This is why world bosses drop better loot than deer, and why deer drop better loot than rats. Be that as it may, asking for "better loot" under disguise of "More Challenge" is blantently dishonest. I know of one game that did exactly that, ,gave players more challenge and no added rewards, after all, they said they wanted challenge, if they just wanted more or better loot, then they should have been honest and asked for that instead. Keep in mind that, the Lich is MUCH harder then the Horror.. yet, both drop the same loot. Phrasing it like this somehow insinuates that the loot is the primary motivator. The primary motivator is "I would like to do harder content and would like that content to feel rewarding if I can complete it" not "I just want more loot" And yes, the Lich/Horror example of how they stack up to each other, and even worse how they stack up to just killing a bunch of normal mobs in the area is a great example of poor loot assignment and is precisely why "skipping vis/lich" is the most popular way to do the lab. Its not that people don't want to do the content. Its that the game doesn't feel like its valuing the player's effort when it pays out as much for killing more challenging boss enemies as skipping it entirely and just killing some plastic spiders in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the danger of failure. People don't just want more loot. People want loot appropriate to the content they're doing. When they don't get it, they'll do the content once or twice just for fun but part of the long term motivation for killing enemies in a loot based game is in fact the loot. It's a basic paradigm of loot based games. Potential loot is part of the fun of doing the content. Thank, You just made it perfectly clear that loot is the ONLY motivator, as by your own admission, its not the challenge that is inspiring people to do the content. All anyone is asking is that you be honest about your real intentions.. you want exclusive content with rewards only you can get. Lets not sugar coat it. The primary motivator is "I would like to do harder content and would like that content to feel rewarding if I can complete it" Are you telling me that earning loot is not part of the reason you complete content? Are Asking you Me Directly? LOL, I used to play WvW when it was a net loss. In fact, anyone that used to play WvW up till a little after HoT with the additon of reward track and the like, used to play that content for love of the game, not loot, but love of the fights and challenges. So yah.. there was a whole population of this game that would play hard, often overwhelmingly hard due to sever stacking, just for the sheer fun of playing that content. So again, good to know that loot is your only motivator, while you are not alone, you do not speak for everyone, and by and large, you do not speak for the PvP crowed at all. I explained (several times over) that I simply wanted to save myself the tedium of grinding up tailoring, (but.. since I don't have PoF I had to craft the pants anyway) so it manly a moot topic. funny to see how much salt was generated and I might add, STILL being generated.. but moot none the less.

Good point, they tried that Hard Mode with HoT, that went.. oh right.. that was followed by a QoL update to fix that Hard Mode problem.

Why bother? I mean that really, if your still going to play the game with the mentality of gold/hour, what difference does it make how hard or easy the content is, you're just there for the loot anyway, as such, ,Anet might as well put in a big red button in lions arch that you could push endlessly for loot and AP.

Which would mean "Don't make it whatsoever". Picture this:Queensdale. Shadow Behemoth. Hard Mode.Now it's going to be the same fight, just harder with maybe new attacks and doing more damage and more HP.Same exact loot like the normal one.Now except for those that's in it just for the challenge, how many people would be interested in really doing a longer battled Shadow Behemoth for the same reward?Already have people who refuse to play with certain people in fractals/raids because it takes too long. Not sure which audience they would be catering to do more work for the same pay as someone who does little work and get the same payment in the end. Hey, people keep asking for hard mode. If they want hard mode, if there's demand for it, then that's fine, give it to them. If they just want better loot than other people get, then they should ask for that instead, and be refused. The expectation in games that assign loot for completing challenges is that higher levels of challenge equate to more/better rewards. This is why world bosses drop better loot than deer, and why deer drop better loot than rats. Be that as it may, asking for "better loot" under disguise of "More Challenge" is blantently dishonest. I know of one game that did exactly that, ,gave players more challenge and no added rewards, after all, they said they wanted challenge, if they just wanted more or better loot, then they should have been honest and asked for that instead. Keep in mind that, the Lich is MUCH harder then the Horror.. yet, both drop the same loot. Phrasing it like this somehow insinuates that the loot is the primary motivator. The primary motivator is "I would like to do harder content and would like that content to feel rewarding if I can complete it" not "I just want more loot" And yes, the Lich/Horror example of how they stack up to each other, and even worse how they stack up to just killing a bunch of normal mobs in the area is a great example of poor loot assignment and is precisely why "skipping vis/lich" is the most popular way to do the lab. Its not that people don't want to do the content. Its that the game doesn't feel like its valuing the player's effort when it pays out as much for killing more challenging boss enemies as skipping it entirely and just killing some plastic spiders in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the danger of failure. People don't just want more loot. People want loot appropriate to the content they're doing. When they don't get it, they'll do the content once or twice just for fun but part of the long term motivation for killing enemies in a loot based game is in fact the loot. It's a basic paradigm of loot based games. Potential loot is part of the fun of doing the content.Thank, You just made it perfectly clear that loot is the ONLY motivator, as by your own admission, its not the challenge that is inspiring people to do the content. All anyone is asking is that you be honest about your real intentions.. you want exclusive content with rewards only you can get. Lets not sugar coat it.

Which would mean "Don't make it whatsoever". Picture this:Queensdale. Shadow Behemoth. Hard Mode.Now it's going to be the same fight, just harder with maybe new attacks and doing more damage and more HP.Same exact loot like the normal one.Now except for those that's in it just for the challenge, how many people would be interested in really doing a longer battled Shadow Behemoth for the same reward?Already have people who refuse to play with certain people in fractals/raids because it takes too long. Not sure which audience they would be catering to do more work for the same pay as someone who does little work and get the same payment in the end. Hey, people keep asking for hard mode. If they want hard mode, if there's demand for it, then that's fine, give it to them. If they just want better loot than other people get, then they should ask for that instead, and be refused. The expectation in games that assign loot for completing challenges is that higher levels of challenge equate to more/better rewards. This is why world bosses drop better loot than deer, and why deer drop better loot than rats.Be that as it may, asking for "better loot" under disguise of "More Challenge" is blantently dishonest. I know of one game that did exactly that, ,gave players more challenge and no added rewards, after all, they said they wanted challenge, if they just wanted more or better loot, then they should have been honest and asked for that instead. Keep in mind that, the Lich is MUCH harder then the Horror.. yet, both drop the same loot.

Well more mobs would mean more loot ... Fair point, in theory it would mean more chances at loot.

That would be an amazing train-wreck to watch. Not a single game designer would do that of-course but gw2 is special so there is hope. Eh? I can name two Top title MMO's that already do this.

As long as it did not provide anything extra, I would be fine with a hard-mode put in for people that just like to challenge themselves.

I feel your pain.. but at some point the theme-park ride ends and you need to go play in the sandbox.. lucky for you, GW2 gave you both.

That's true when you're just talking about unbreakable regular tools, but when it comes to the special ones such as the Unbound Magic or Sprocket mining pick(the latter is apparently quite profitable) I'd say it is worth the hassle. I bought each of my characters their own personal set designed to fit their theme. IE: Undead Mining Minions for my necro,

You get one set of tools, that any of your characters can use, each character does not get their own set.

I had a similar problem, with my Naga, with the wheel moving randomly and jumping around a bit, but when I moved it to my upgraded gaming computer, it worked great again. Freaky.

I have a Razer Naga, that has met the wall a few times, and still works, going on 4 years of gaming with it.