Dagger skill 3 needs a total rework to make dagger main hand viable...

[kash.9213]

19 minutes ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

True! But, I typically use heart seeker as a finisher or with black powder shot to go stealth for backstab set up. Plus headshot gives a nice stun.

Typically in WvW, I'm running either D/P and Rifle as DE or Sw/P and SB as DD. I shied away from D/D in WvW solely because it's not viable in zergs and the damage output in a pure power build is less than Sw/P or Rifle as DD or DE.

Actually I'd say it's only really viable in zergs because of Whirl and Leap, which actually makes it pretty strong in large squad fights. If Death Blossom had some reach I'd use it more often but since I mostly cover people, it doesn't let me intercept very well without burning stuff I'm trying to conserve or stagger. It's small scale or 1v? where I find it gasses out fast, especially with limited field uptime to work with. Maybe we're experiencing varied matchups.

[Salvatore.3749]

6 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Actually I'd say it's only really viable in zergs because of Whirl and Leap, which actually makes it pretty strong in large squad fights. If Death Blossom had some reach I'd use it more often but since I mostly cover people, it doesn't let me intercept very well without burning stuff I'm trying to conserve or stagger. It's small scale or 1v? where I find it gasses out fast, especially with limited field uptime to work with. Maybe we're experiencing varied matchups.

See I prefer DE rifle in zergs for focused target damage and DE mark with sleight of hand to interrupt. When I can pick off one target at a time and move on to the next, it's much more helpful for me. Plus, using D.P skill 3 to close the gap on a target and finish with a backstab or heart seeker is better in EB when you are attacking towers or SMC. 

I can see exactly where death blossom can be beneficial for combo fields and that's something I do like most about it, but the increased initiative cost makes it gas out pretty quickly in zergs when all hell breaks lose. I think from a pvp persepective, I utilize weapon swap more and start with P/D versus D/D so I don't lose all initiative and can finish of my target. 

In wvw, I like the Blackpowder, heartseeker (to close distance) , backstab, heartseeker finish combo for high dps and finishing. It seems like a lot of initiative use and skills, but the actions are fast and low ini cost after swapping from rifle as DE. For DD, I just use sword 2, headshot, then skill 3 or just skill 3 (with pulmonary impact trait) for high damage output and evade frames. Skill 3 hits multiple targets on thief and that's always nice in group fights.  

[Vecuu.2018]

If they change Death Blossom I might cry.  I've played Condi D/D variants for almost a decade now.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 9/18/2021 at 6:04 PM, Vecuu.2018 said:

If they change Death Blossom I might cry.  I've played Condi D/D variants for almost a decade now.

If they made it a better source of  condition damage but changed the animation/mobility to actually compete with modern powercrept mobility, would you be upset?

DB's bleed is irrelevant to the kit's usability.  Even if they changed MH dagger to be all condi, the kit would still suck because it can't actually stay engaged with anything without burning disproportionate amounts of utility skills.

[Vecuu.2018]

12 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

If they made it a better source of  condition damage but changed the animation/mobility to actually compete with modern powercrept mobility, would you be upset?

DB's bleed is irrelevant to the kit's usability.  Even if they changed MH dagger to be all condi, the kit would still suck because it can't actually stay engaged with anything without burning disproportionate amounts of utility skills.

 

Approaching this conversation more seriously, I don't think that's a good idea.

There's a part of me that would love a small buff to the ability. Improving the tracking would be nice against more mobile classes. 

Thing is, in a single package that is Death Blossom, you have:

- Condition damage

- built in evasion

- a spamable skill thanks to the initiative mechanic

Condi builds already naturally tend to favor tankier gear (at least in PvP), so by doubling down on Dire/Trailblazers/what-have-you with repeatable sources of evasion, a very small adjustment can dramatically change power levels.

If you wanted it to be less feels-bad overall, you could maybe bump the base damage a bit and add in another condition, maybe something like 2x Vuln per hit landed for potential 6 Vuln overall.  Increasing the base damage and adding in Vuln makes the ability actually usable for power builds, and the second condition makes cleanses less brutal in PvP since modern variants of the old Unicorn build rely like 90% on Bleed.

Mind you, my thoughts come from the perspective of a roamer in WvW, so take my stance with a grain of salt.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Vecuu.2018
formatting is hard

[DeceiverX.8361]

14 hours ago, Vecuu.2018 said:

 

Approaching this conversation more seriously, I don't think that's a good idea.

There's a part of me that would love a small buff to the ability. Improving the tracking would be nice against more mobile classes. 

Thing is, in a single package that is Death Blossom, you have:

- Condition damage

- built in evasion

- a spamable skill thanks to the initiative mechanic

Condi builds already naturally tend to favor tankier gear (at least in PvP), so by doubling down on Dire/Trailblazers/what-have-you with repeatable sources of evasion, a very small adjustment can dramatically change power levels.

If you wanted it to be less feels-bad overall, you could maybe bump the base damage a bit and add in another condition, maybe something like 2x Vuln per hit landed for potential 6 Vuln overall.  Increasing the base damage and adding in Vuln makes the ability actually usable for power builds, and the second condition makes cleanses less brutal in PvP since modern variants of the old Unicorn build rely like 90% on Bleed.

Mind you, my thoughts come from the perspective of a roamer in WvW, so take my stance with a grain of salt.

 Make it have a fixed travel distance and the skill no longer becomes spammable. 

This way it can be improved since it will take time to reposition to have the correct spacing.  PvP skill floor and ceilings respectively drop/rise giving the kit more respect, and can be used with CnD. 

[Vecuu.2018]

2 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 Make it have a fixed travel distance and the skill no longer becomes spammable. 

This way it can be improved since it will take time to reposition to have the correct spacing.  PvP skill floor and ceilings respectively drop/rise giving the kit more respect, and can be used with CnD. 

 

Death Blossom already has a fixed travel distance. 

Spamability isn't based on animation, it's based simply on the Initiative mechanic.  The ability already isn't truly 'spamable' anyway, since it has serious animation locking and windows of vulnerability at the end of the animation.  If you spam it, you'll just die.

[DeceiverX.8361]

7 minutes ago, Vecuu.2018 said:

 

Death Blossom already has a fixed travel distance. 

Spamability isn't based on animation, it's based simply on the Initiative mechanic.  The ability already isn't truly 'spamable' anyway, since it has serious animation locking and windows of vulnerability at the end of the animation.  If you spam it, you'll just die.

It does but doesn't have mobility attached.  It just moves you 130 units AKA over the enemy hitbox. 

As an evading variable range gap close it'd be OP akin to Shadow Shot if also given that condition usage.  Think beta Death's Charge. 

If it could actually be used to reposition the delay/lockout afterward wouldn't be a problem.  Condition builds are sufficiently tanky to take a quick trade back, especially if the damage is improved. 

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

I like adding more mobility to Death Blossom, but it also indirectly messes up with condi d/d builds due to the current synergy with Uncatchable (spreading lesser caltrops).