Vindicator Tenacious Ruin Discussion and Feedback

[Jthug.9506]

I know there is the primary Vindicator feedback discussion thread, but I would like to start a thread specifically around the core class mechanic:

Tenacious Ruin - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

and the associated Grand Master traits which modify it:

Forerunner of Death - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Vassals of the Empire - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

and

Saint of zu Heltzer - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

and how we felt about it after the first beta test.

 

I have seen opinions ranging from "I hate it, please give me back my dodges" to "this is brilliant and I love it, please don't touch it".

 

I am especially interested in discussing what doesn't come up in the tooltips, specifically the variation in air time between the different flavors of TR and how that affects dps and survivability (assuming they work out the bugs), fluidity, and any other interesting interactions such as with upkeep skills.

 

For instance I am not 100% sure what the variation in hang time is, but I feel like SzH is perhaps 1s, VoE 2s, and FoD 3s. I can't be sure because it's not stated and I didn't get out a stopwatch. But assuming that's true just making them all as short as SzH should increase pve dps benchmark by between 3.875k and 7.75k depending on how that 31k rumored benchmark rotation was done. If TR was activated at 15s when the FoD buff expired with Vengeful Hammers - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) it would be about a 3.7k difference, if it was activated at 12s without Vengeful Hammers - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) the difference would be 7.75k. If another combination the dps would be somewhere in-between as the hammers seem to continue to do damage while you are in the air during TR. In any case it would make a pretty large impact on dps to shorten the hang time of FoD and even VoE. What is the impact of a longer evade time (again assuming they fix the bugs) in competitive formats? In pvp or wvw roaming maybe it's better to have the long evade if you are using FoD in a small scale fight where damage mitigation can really help you out, but maybe in team fights and zergs with relatively short engages perhaps the long hang time is a hindrance to getting in damage quickly. I know I found my self dodging in advance of an engage call when doing comped format wvw, the driver might call "engage in 3..2..1.." and I would start FoD on 3.

 

Another example of discussion around this mechanic might be damage reduction. I know it's probably supposed to have evade frames the entire time, but I think it's currently bugged as I have been cced and damaged while in TR in the past. But what felt even worse is that when TR is very long I have often times died during it because I had conditions on me. It might feel a lot better if TR, in addition to having it's full duration covered by evade, would also temporarily suspend condition damage on the player until they land again, giving them a chance to react and cleanse them off, rather then having them kill or severely maul you while you are locked in TR's hang time.

 

Anyway I would love to see a detailed breakdown of this mechanic and it's potential future based on what we now know, please discuss...

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Assuming the bugs during dodge are actually bugs, such as being CC out of it, and that they are fixed, I have to extremely hard disagree with any reduction of dodge time.  The dodge times are fine and make sense for what each GM traits purpose is.  What is not fine is the resulting landing numbers. That is all that needs to be tweaked.  The damage dodge needs an increase in dps numbers.  The heal/barrier dodge needs a lowered number in either the heal or the barrier. The boon dodge needs something else, but I don’t know what.  

[Jthug.9506]

13 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Assuming the bugs during dodge are actually bugs, such as being CC out of it, and that they are fixed, I have to extremely hard disagree with any reduction of dodge time.  The dodge times are fine and make sense for what each GM traits purpose is.  What is not fine is the resulting landing numbers. That is all that needs to be tweaked.  The damage dodge needs an increase in dps numbers.  The heal/barrier dodge needs a lowered number in either the heal or the barrier. The boon dodge needs something else, but I don’t know what.  

Do you think that the increased dodge times are more for counter play purposes or for the evade uptime? I think if the dodge times stay the same, if power vindicator pve dps is to be on par with or greater than power renegade pve dps, then they will need to take other measures, maybe splitting FoD across modes.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

57 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Do you think that the increased dodge times are more for counter play purposes or for the evade uptime? I think if the dodge times stay the same, if power vindicator pve dps is to be on par with or greater than power renegade pve dps, then they will need to take other measures, maybe splitting FoD across modes.

Really can’t say for sure until we know if it was bugged or not.  Irregardless, I do think power dps numbers need to go up across the board for V, not just the dodge but the whole thing.

[Jthug.9506]

I kinda get the feeling that splitting the hang times between the 3 gms was a last second decision. Maybe someone at competitive balance thought that they needed more warning before they got slammed. It might explain why there’s no reference to the it in the tooltips. I personally kind of hate the feeling of being out of the battle for so long, the only saving grace for me is that both vengeful hammers and embrace the darkness continue to damage nearby enemies while you are waiting to land.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

4 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

I kinda get the feeling that splitting the hang times between the 3 gms was a last second decision. Maybe someone at competitive balance thought that they needed more warning before they got slammed. It might explain why there’s no reference to the it in the tooltips. I personally kind of hate the feeling of being out of the battle for so long, the only saving grace for me is that both vengeful hammers and embrace the darkness continue to damage nearby enemies while you are waiting to land.

I liked it, and could see why they’d want you in the air so long. I was able to get a 7k hit out on 5 people at the same time.  Was quite nasty for them.

 

unfortunately, it only happened once.  

Edited October 1, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Jthug.9506]

I have seen it hit for 22k on a lord as well. It's nasty for sure, not sure they should tune it up any more, but for pve I wish they would at least buff foerunner of death, so I don't feel like a moron trying to play power dps revenant instead of literally any other power class.

[Oldyoung.6109]

The problem is the leaps are actually cool and fun to play with but have nowhere near enough value to justify replacing dodging aside from maybe SoZH because it's kinda broken.

 

now if it was split from dodging and slapped on an f skill if they still cost endurance to use you barely have to change any traits and could have a gameplay decision instead of a flat nerf.

 

[Thon.3780]

As I test , jump range and time depend on amount of endurance consume. 150>100>50.

 

if it can redesign , I prefer F5 to trigger Tenacious Ruin. So I can select when to dodge or jump.