"New" Kaineng

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

This is the second time you corrected me that the Eternal Alchemy doesnt define the structure of magic, but the structure of everything. To that I reply, magic is part of everything, and thus by extension, the Eternal Alchemy DOES define the structure of magic. So it's a mute point; stop making it. As for the potential that the Asura are wrong; sure that would be possible... If we didn't see it ourselves.

To clarify, my point was that Eternal Alchemy isn't about a literal metaphorical mechanism. And yes, magic is included in its philosophy, because magic is a part of all things. Your original statements was saying Eternal Alchemy defines magic as a system of rules, but that's not strictly true.

In essence, Eternal Alchemy is the philosophy of all things being influenced by all other things either directly or indirectly through a chain of influences. Similar to the butterfly effect, but larger scale and accurate when inversed too. That's where the 'cogs in a machine' analogy comes in - if you move Cog A, it affects Cog Z because it's connected to Cog B, that's connected to Cog C, etc. etc. all the way down to Cog Z. And thus the inverse is true.

 

The core of the point is, however, that just because the asura take a scientific approach to magic, doesn't mean that magic is actually an organized structure. Additionally, just because the asura believe something, doesn't mean it is true.

 

10 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

I've decided to put the theory of Aether Tech having a profound influence on Jade Tech to bed for a moment and consider alternatives. Some seem to be or the opinion that it is impossible for Canthans, who were technologically behind Asura, to not only catch up, but even surpass them in a decade. I challenge this assertion to its very core.

1. In the real world, within a 100 years Asia went from being far behind the western world in terms of tech and industry, to now being its leading innovator. This proves it is possible.

2. Furthermore, within the last 250 years, our technology has advanced at a rate so fast, it far outweighs the success of the previous 1,000. Why? The three major heros of the Industrial Revolutions: Coal, Oil, and Electricity were the catalysts that allowed us to breakthrough the stagnation of reaching our previous technological platues in rapid succession. Dragon Jade is Cantha's breakthrough catalyst. 

3. When Europeans first came to the Americas, they found the Native Americans still locked in the stone age. Why? Scholars say load bearing beast of burden prompted the invention of the wheel, and rapid technological advancement all began with the wheel. Unfortunately however, such animals were not present in North America pre-colonization. Dragon Jade, a resource far superior to any available to the Asura; for Canthans, it is their wheel.

 

Taking a step back to my previous Aether-tech theory, these points still align, but are further accentuated:

Asia's technological superiority started when they took western tech and put their own spin on it. The Canthans could have done the same with Aether-tech.

1. This was primarily possible due to trade and commerce, however. Asia wasn't isolated from Western technological development, and despite some modern fiction's depiction of, say, Samurai's reaction to importing Western technological advancements, they were all for it and used that to boost them. Basically, Asia became a leading innovator because of the scenario suggesting Jadetech is based off of asuratech/aethertech; but in far more time than Cantha had.

2. My issue with this constant comparison is again the rate of development. The Industrial Revolution began in 1720 CE - 300 years ago - and Cantha's industrial revolution began no earlier than 1220 AE - just barely 100 years prior to GW2. However, despite this 200 year difference, Canthan technology had advanced to become a similar state to modern irl tech (and beyond, in many instances). And dragon jade itself should be no older than 1325 AE with Zhaitan's death, which reduces that 100 years to a meager 8 (9 by EoD release assuming they retain calendar syncing going into the new year); and even with retcons to the lore, without major and painful retcons, cannot be older than 1220 AE.

3. This is actually fundamentally false. The Native Americans were not in the stone age at all, and had fully functioning cities, forges, etc. - and I don't just mean the Aztec that got butchered by the Spanish, but also places like Cahokia in Mississippi. The idea that Native Americans were "savages" or "tribal" is one of propaganda by Europeans that was pretty commonly spread about anywhere they were colonizing. Why? because they didn't have Victorian-styled cities, and were under the flawed belief that if civilizations didn't function like theirs did, they were lesser. Europeans of the era also considered the Chinese to be inferior, which was viewed inversely by the Chinese, because of the differences in culture and architectural styles. Native Americans lacked advanced metallurgy, but that doesn't place them in the stone age.

Sorry, bit of a tangent there, but I don't quite see the parallel, because the asura had tech for far longer than the Canthans, so they're not really "lacking the wheel" so to speak. The Canthans just had a massive industrialization that shot them through 250+ years of asuran development in anywhere between 10 and 100 years.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 It's no longer the case, but Mai Trin wouldn't know this unless she had contact with Cantha already. The earliest possible contact with Cantha comes from the Zephyrites in Festival of the Four Winds - after Mai Trin and the Aehterblades vanish into the Mists.

The earliest possible contact with Cantha, as far as we know, you mean. She has a fleet of advanced airships and traveled in and out if the mist -it's fair to say we have absolutely no idea where she's been, who she's met, what she's learned, and what she's done.

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As to the idea of jumping jadetech along. While this is possible, again the distribution of such to the extent we see in the New Kaineng City, Aetherbalde tech mixing into or creating jadetech would have less than a decade. So again, my issue is the rate of development being too hasty.

Ill surrender you this point, it's true even if she's been there ever since she disappeared, it would at most only equate to half a dozen years or so, which is no where near the 300 or so years that passed during our industrial revolution. However, while Cantha was behind in terms of technology compared to the Asura... I'd argue it wasn't by as much as you make it out to be. (They already had waypoints, for instance) They didn't have as far to catch up, and it wouldn't have taken as much time to do so.

I'd also argue that Jade Tech is not necessarily FAR superior, if at all, to Asura tech. I haven't seen anything in the concept art, trailers, blogs, or dev streams that the Asura haven't already made in some form or another first.

And finally i'd argue that there is a significant difference between many scientists discovering technology through years of research and experimentation vrs a foreign scientist arriving at your door and handing you a fully tried tested and proven invention along with a detailed blueprint and mathematical/scientific explanation. When trains were introduced to asia, they didn't have to take the time to rediscover them, they only had to build them. Similarly if the Aetherblades walked in and handed over their tech, Cantha would instantly move up a level.

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Pirates in Gendarran and Bloodtide don't have backing, they lost anything resembling a unified leader (Taidha) and their bases. But they remain an active threat.

Each map has its own distinct timeline, the organizations present in them don't necessarily still exist. I don't recall ever seeing the Taidha pirates, for instance, on another map further down the timeline after she fell in battle and her base was captured. As far as we know, other pirates/bandits seen later have zero relation to her, and may have even been recently founded. Another point to note is that pirates/bandits only offended regional powers, Scarlet, and by extension her attached forces, offended the world.

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Scarlet might have pissed off Lion's Arch, but she didn't kitten off every known organization in Tyria - and neither did the Aetherblades and Mai Trin.

She did though. She allied herself with enemy factions of various races: asura-inquest, human/charr-flame legion, sylvari-nightmare court everyone-pirates/dredge. She attacked Divinity's Reach, attacked territory controlled by Hoelbrak and the Black Citadel, tested weapons in priory controlled land, built a base in Slyvari territory and lions Arch, and finally attacked lions Arch itself. Its hard to think of a race/country/organization she didn't offend.

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Why does the place they go to have to be a place Mai Trin has a tenuous tie to? I mean, first off, she might be of Canthan descent, but there'd be 100 years distance between her, her family, and Cantha. She descended from refugees who fled Usoku's reign before Zhaitan rose, or be descended from Canthan business who were cut off from Cantha by Zhaitan's rise. In either way, she herself has zero direct ties to Cantha. 

I'm of Irish descent... But I've never been to Ireland, my family left over 100 years ago and dropped our culture to Americanize... I'm still interested in Irish culture and want to go there some day. Extrapolating from my own background, I find it very reasonable/relatable that she may want to go there.

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And if the Aetherblades have to go to a place where someone has ties to, what about the dredge members? or asura members? or norn members?

Why go to a place the captain has ties to? The captain usually dictates the direction of the ship -unless said captain is contracted under an employer. Also I highly doubt they would be welcome in Rata Sum, Hoelbrak or even a Dredge city for that matter. The dredge don't like other races. Black market trading is one thing, peaceful cohabitation another; you don't have to like someone to take their money.

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Mai Trin didn't attack Lion's Arch and killed hundreds of thousands - Scarlet did. The Aetherblades that attacked Lion's Arch died there, more likely than not.

Never heard of guilt by association? But it's more than that, they weren't just 'associated' with her, they were one of her armies, just because they didn't personally raid the region around Hoelbrak themselves, doesn't mean they have no connection to it. Doesn't mean they were ignorant of it, or didn't have some part to play in it. It doesn't mean the wouldn't have done so if they were ordered to.

Edited December 28, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The core of the point is, however, that just because the asura take a scientific approach to magic, doesn't mean that magic is actually an organized structure. Additionally, just because the asura believe something, doesn't mean it is true.

Ive pointed out a couple times here that when we entered Scarlet's machine we Literally saw the Eternal Alchemy. But even had we not, the Asuras have proven it true, as their mathematical equations and scientific formulas that have allowed them to create all their technology are based off its existence. If the theories were wrong, the math would be wrong, if the math was wrong, the machines wouldn't work. At this point its not just a theory.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

1. Basically, Asia became a leading innovator because of the scenario suggesting Jadetech is based off of asuratech/aethertech; but in far more time than Cantha had.

Indeed, this is one of the points I was making.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

2. My issue with this constant comparison is again the rate of development. The Industrial Revolution began in 1720 CE - 300 years ago - and Cantha's industrial revolution began no earlier than 1220 AE - just barely 100 years prior to GW2. However, despite this 200 year difference, Canthan technology had advanced to become a similar state to modern irl tech (and beyond, in many instances). And dragon jade itself should be no older than 1325 AE with Zhaitan's death, which reduces that 100 years to a meager 8 (9 by EoD release assuming they retain calendar syncing going into the new year); and even with retcons to the lore, without major and painful retcons, cannot be older than 1220 AE.

My previous post addresses this.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

3. This is actually fundamentally false. The Native Americans were not in the stone age at all, and had fully functioning cities, forges, etc. - Native Americans lacked advanced metallurgy, but that doesn't place them in the stone age.

The age is strongly connected to the tech, and the tech to the level of metallurgy; among other factors such as power source, and yes, even architecture. Victorian houses aren't just prettier than huts, they factor in many technological advances such as insulation, ventilation, stabilization, durability, lifespan, and disaster resistance. These changes don't just give you greater comfort, they provide greater protection and promote better health and longevity.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

19 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

The earliest possible contact with Cantha, as far as we know, you mean. She has a fleet of advanced airships and traveled in and out if the mist -it's fair to say we have absolutely no idea where she's been, who she's met, what she's learned, and what she's done.

I suppose that's a fair argument, though if she went from the Mists to Cantha, we still hold the same issue that - should Mai Trin had gone there knowingly, she did so while only knowing Cantha to be xenophobic still (even if such knowledge is false).

Meeting someone in the Mists would require Canthans to have portals to the Mists too, which isn't impossible but doesn't seem all that likely as the Aetherblades were in the same regions that WvW takes place, and so Tyrians would encounter Canthans in the Mists if the Aetherblades could.

19 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Ill surrender you this point, it's true even if she's been there ever since she disappeared, it would at most only equate to half a dozen years or so, which is no where near the 300 or so years that passed during our industrial revolution. However, while Cantha was behind in terms of technology compared to the Asura... I'd argue it wasn't by as much as you make it out to be. (They already had waypoints, for instance) They didn't have as far to catch up, and it wouldn't have taken as much time to do so.

Canthans didn't have waypoints before jadetech - at least not as far as we know. In GW1, Canthan technology is maxed out at stacked wooden-and-stone architecture, cannons, and magical constructs that could parallel basic GW1 golems. Even asura didn't have waypoints until after 1320 AE, as they're derived from Snaff's "hole-in-my-pocket" (a miniature-and-expandable portable asura gate) device as brought up somewhat in the asura lore blogpost; waypoints themselves came about after his death. The asura did have portal gates, but their network was destroyed with Primordus'a wakening and they had to make a new network that functions differently after - building that to the point we see in GW2 over the next 200 years. Cantha did have (at least) one asura gate, but this gate was of the old network which was powered off of Primordus, so it should have become defunct. And even that is questionable canonicity since it derives from the quest leading into EotN - it's confirmed that the quests going from NF to Proph/Factions are non-canon and exist purely for mechanical reasons (hence the timeskip backwards), but in canon only the asura gate under LA is mentioned; the one under Kamadan and Kaineng are left ambiguous at best, especially since they're found after meeting Ogden and Vekk and those two can't be in three places at once. The only non-asura portal network we know of is the portals between Drascir and Nolani.

So Cantha would be fully devoid of any teleportation system until they made jadetech waypoints.

 

I'd say the only realm they 'weren't that far behind' would be golems->mechs (though honestly the term "mech" makes them sound a lot more techy than golems sound, which is another thing I'm non-too-fond of).

19 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

I'd also argue that Jade Tech is not necessarily FAR superior, if at all superior to Asura tech. I haven't seen anything in the concept art, trailers, blogs, or dev streams that the Asura haven't already made in some form or another first.

I'll admit that it is mainly my interpretation. Though the existence of microwaves (assuming that they're actual microwaves using electromagnetic waves to heat food, and not just "miniature ovens but we're calling them microwaves to create familiarity for players") and a continental-wide multi-receiver live hologram network hundreds strong with minimal buffering is both things the asura lack any implication of having (the closest we got is one-way holographic downloads as seen in S3E5, and live long-distance dozen-strong-tops audio-only communications).

19 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

And finally id argue that there is a significant difference between many scientists discovering technology through years of research and experimentation vrs a foreign scientist arriving at your door and handing you a fully tried tested and proven invention along with a detailed blueprint and mathematical/scientific explanation. When trains were introduced to asia, they didn't have to take the time to rediscover them, they only had to build them. Similarly if the Aetherblades walked in and handed over their tech, Cantha would instantly move up a level.

I agree here, but as mentioned, all indication so far is that Canthans developed their technology independently. I'm not convinced there's any solid support of Aetherblades being in Cantha before EoD, let alone Canthans deriving from other tech prior to 1327 AE. And even if they did derive from other tech post-1327 AE, that still wouldn't be long enough to reverse engineer, repurpose power supply, and wide-spread commercialize the technology by 1333/1334 AE.

19 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Each map has its own distinct timeline, the organizations present in them don't necessarily still exist. I don't recall ever seeing the Taidha pirates, for instance, on another map further down the timeline after she fell in battle and her base was captured. As far as we know, other pirates/bandits seen later have zero relation to her, and may have even been recently founded. Another point to note is that pirates/bandits only offended regional powers, Scarlet, and by extension her attached forces offended the world.

 

She did though. She allied herself with enemy factions of various races: asura-inquest, human/charr-flame legion, sylvari-nightmare court everyone-pirates/dredge. She attacked Divinity's Reach, attacked territory controlled by Hoelbrak and the Black Citadel, tested weapons in priory controlled land, built a base in slyvari territory and lionsarch, and finally attacked lionsarch itself. Its hard to think of a race/country/organization she didnt offend.

I'm not talking about open world events though, but dialogue and events from the storylines that occur after.

Taidha would have be killed during the personal story, pirates in Lion's Arch are still abound throughout Season 1 and Season 2, and we even have the formation of the Aetherblades during that time. As mentioned above, in One Path Ends, Anise comments on how after the White Mantle leadership and army fell, while pockets of WM still exist, the bandits and corrupted ministers are still an active threat. Similarly, centaurs remain an active threat (so much so they were going to be a plot focus in IBS before EoD shafted the second half into lackluster Champions), despite the death of their leader Ulgoth and the capture of their War Camp in Harathi Hinterlands.

 

I would disagree that "Scarlet offended the world". They didn't assault Rata Sum or the Grove, and Hoelbrak barely cared about Molten Alliance attacks due to their individualistic nature. She barely caused troubles for the High Legions too - only Rytlock seemed to care about her among the charr, with Smodur making no action towards it. it was only Kryta - Lion's Arch and Divinity's Reach - that had it out for Scarlet and her forces.

Yes, Scarlet allied with the Inquest - but the Inquest are a legal entity in Rata Sum, and the Arcane Council took no action in fighting Scarlet throughout Season 1. Similar with the Wardens and her alliance with the Nightmare Court, or the norn with her alliance with the dredge.

Once the local issues were solved, the charr Legions and norn hunters ignored her (sans Braham, Rytlock, and Rox), even as her invasions assaulted Iron Marches and Blazeridge Steppes. Meanwhile Rata Sum's Peacekeepers and The Grove's Wardens did absolutely nothing about Scarlet at any point in time - even when the Tower of Nightmares was sending offshoots into Caledon Forest and Brisban Wildlands. Caithe was the only sylvari to act in regards to Scarlet.

They're outlaws, but most of Tyria is wildlands still, and they were outlaws in the second half of Season 1 too, hunted down by Lion's Arch during Twilight Arbor's Aetherpath, and they were able to have that base hidden for quite a while.

On top of all that, nobody - as far as we know - were hunting them down after Season 1. They could have laid low in Tyria without issue.

19 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

I'm of Irish descent... But I've never been to Ireland, my family left over 100 years ago and dropped our culture to Americanize... I'm still interested in Irish culture and want to go there some day. Extrapolating from my own background, i find it very reasonable/relatable that she may want to go there.

I am also of Irish descent, as well as Italian. Similarly, I'm third/fourth-generation (depending on side of my father's family) immigrant and our families' cultures were dropped to Americanize. However, I don't think any of my family is all that interested in Irish or Italian culture or want to go there anymore than wanting to go to any other country of renown as vacation.

It certainly is plausible she'd want to visit. But taking a vacation in "one's ancestral homeland" would be quite a bit different than seeking asylum for oneself and a dozen others.

19 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Why go to a place the captain has ties to? The captain usually dictates the direction of the ship -unless said captain is contracted under an employer. Also I highly doubt they would be welcome in Rata Sum, Hoelbrak or even a Dredge city for that matter. The dredge don't like other races. Black market trading is one thing, peaceful cohabitation another; you don't have to like someone to take there money.

 

Never heard of guilt by association? But its more than that, they weren't just 'associated' with her, they were one of her armies, just because they didn't personally raid the region around Hoelbrak themselves, doesn't mean they have no connection to it. Doesn't mean they were ignorant of it, or didn't have some part to play in it. It doesn't mean the wouldn't have done so if they were ordered to.

In regards to the dredge - in Sorrow's Embrace, the dredge openly welcome asura, while talk of conquering the charr, norn, and humans. So they're not above bringing others, especially if they can see them as lessers as refugees would. For the rest - above.

As for guilt by association, but that's something the norn don't give a kitten about, for starters; it's why they let Sons of Svanir who hadn't personally committed a crime stick around in Hoelbrak. Similar with Rata Sum, and how they give the Inquest a position on the Council and an entire corner of the cube equal to what the Peacekeepers get. Similarly, sylvari also avoid guilt by association as depicted in the sylvari lore blog post where Wardens leave krait young go because they hadn't committed a crime though they very well might in the future. For the rest - above.

31 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Ive pointed out a couple times here that when we entered Scarlet's machine we Literally saw the Eternal Alchemy. But even had we not, the Asuras have proven it true, as their mathematical equations and scientific formulas that have allowed them to create all their technology are based off its existence. If the theories were wrong, the math would be wrong, if the math was wrong, the machines wouldn't work. At this point its not just a theory.

What we see in Omadd's Machine is The All, which is fundamentally different from the Eternal Alchemy - though several NPCs in S1 and S2 call them interchangably, I'd argue that's because Omadd believed the machien would show the Eternal Alchemy and that, in turn, is what Scarlet claimed she said. Basically a telephone game happened.

As mentioned, the Eternal Alchemy is the philosophical view of everything - in short, the multiverse. The All, or Antikytheryia, is just the magical system of the planet Tyria/Thyria.

That said, simply because there's a system, doesn't mean it's a fully functional, mathematical system. After all, The All is broken because of the Elder Dragons' greed, and the purpose of Glint's Legacy was to fix it.

And for all the technology the asura have created, a ton of it doesn't work as they expect - if they work at all. Most events in the open world, especially Metrica and Brisban, deal with haywire asura magitech. That implies the math is indeed wrong, since the machines don't work.

31 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Indeed, this is one of the points I was making.

I thought the point of those three notions was to provide alternatives to the idea that the Aetherblades boosted jadetech development, though? Point 1 is only true because of external influence boosting tech (e.g., Aetherblades boosting jadetech). That's a bit self-contradicting, no?

Point 1 cannot work as an alternative to Aethertech boosting/creating Jadetech.

31 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

My previous post addresses this.

I'm sorry, which point addresses the rate of development without interaction with Aethertech? The only I see is the (incorrect) notion that Canthans had waypoints before GW2, and thus were "further along than argued" - if I am incorrect and there were such instances, please provide a source because as mentioned, the furthest "technology" Cantha had in GW1 was their collapsing wooden structures, cannons on siege turtle backs, and constructs such as Shiro'ken (made of bone and metal, animated by souls) or stone guardians of the Echovald

31 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

The age is strongly connected to the tech, and the tech to the level of metallurgy; among other factors such as power source, and yes, even architecture. Victorian houses aren't just prettier than huts, they factor in many technological advances such as insulation, ventilation, stabilization, durability, lifespan, and disaster resistance. These changes don't just give you greater comfort, they provide greater protection and promote better health and longevity.

People native to North and South Americas didn't have advanced metallurgy because they didn't need it due to the existence of obsidian and other stone materials. I wouldn't say that puts them in the stone age, however, as they were capable of architectural feats that Europeans couldn't manage even with their Victorian-level technology.

At worst, I'd argue them equivalent to Bronze Age Mediterranean, and that's being harsh on what we know. But for all intents and purposes, from what I know at least, they were basically "Iron Age but without Iron".

The whole typical age classification of Stone/Bronze/Iron doesn't even work well outside of European/Mediterranean cultures, as Asian culture ages are labeled differently due to different styled advancements.

 

But that all is a bit of a tangent only marginally related. It does show that Canthans can developer in parallel without needing Aethertech to boost, however I'd still argue that 6-115 years is too little for the rate of advancement we see. Which is my main opinion on the matter. It feels to me that the devs want to do a sci-fi game, but are forced to keep working on GW2 by the suits, and so they're just turning GW2 into a "basically sci-fi anyways" aesthetics. Simply my opinion, to those who insult me by proclaiming I'm "gatekeeping".

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I suppose that's a fair argument, though if she went from the Mists to Cantha, we still hold the same issue that - should Mai Trin had gone there knowingly, she did so while only knowing Cantha to be xenophobic still (even if such knowledge is false).

Assuming she didn't know, and im still not sold that there is no possibility she did. One mistake we mustn't make is the assumption the just because the Zepherites weren't added into the game until living world season one, that they didn't exist before then. In fact all Zepherite lore states otherwise. Essentially they traveled the world trading white secretly guarding glints secrets for generations. Given their architecture and the race of some of their members, Cantha was among their many ports of call. It is very possible that Scarlet attended the festival of the four winds years before we as the commander did. Its possible she learned the truth from them. The mist shows major past events, its possible Scarlet learned of Cantha's political and/or technological changes there. Or what if one of her crew members joined after leaving Cantha? The possibilities here are virtually endless 

 

But lets say she didn't know, lets say its a selfish act that doesn't consider her crews well being at all. Lets say she is heartless kitten and doesn't give a kitten... Sounds like a pirate to me.

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Meeting someone in the Mists would require Canthans to have portals to the Mists too, which isn't impossible but doesn't seem all that likely as the Aetherblades were in the same regions that WvW takes place, and so Tyrians would encounter Canthans in the Mists if the Aetherblades could.

It only takes one person to spread the news. One person can go unnoticed by the rest of tryia but be unlucky enough to stumble upon the Aetherblades...

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Canthans didn't have waypoints before jadetech - at least not as far as we know. 

So Cantha would be fully devoid of any teleportation system until they made jadetech waypoints.

I misspoke. They may not have had waypoints, but they had some system of instant intercity travel, that allowed us to jump back and forth. Unless you are saying that travel game mechanic doesn't translate into story/lore, but is merely a player friendly quality-of-life feature that in-world, didn't actually happen. I would assume this of most fast travel features in games, but ANet made the mistake of breaking that wall, which now makes everything confusing. What is and what isn't actually happening in-world vrs what's just a player utility feature? IMHO waypoints, as a canonical in-world travel system, should have never been made a thing. But that's a whole other debate.

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I'd say the only realm they 'weren't that far behind' would be golems->mechs (though honestly the term "mech" makes them sound a lot more techy than golems sound, which is another thing I'm non-too-fond of).

I'll admit that it is mainly my interpretation. Though the existence of microwaves (assuming that they're actual microwaves using electromagnetic waves to heat food, and not just "miniature ovens but we're calling them microwaves to create familiarity for players") and a continental-wide multi-receiver live hologram network hundreds strong with minimal buffering is both things the asura lack any implication of having (the closest we got is one-way holographic downloads as seen in S3E5, and live long-distance dozen-strong-tops audio-only communications).

I think the fallacy of your argument here is that you're assuming that just because the Asuran haven't made a massive intercity holo communications network, that they are incapable of doing so. We've seen Asuran use holographic communications technology since core launched. The only difference between how we've seen Asurans and Canthans use this tech is that Canthans have simply done it on a significantly larger scale, launching a network that spans their entire empire. Note, I said "Empire", not "Continent." Although the two are interchangeable for Canthans, it is an important distinction when comparing Cantha to Tyria. The Asura do not control the entire Tryian continent(which is significantly larger than the Canthan continent) and as such, cannot build-out everywhere. That said I've never seen an Asurian facility that didn't have a communicator there, nor any indication that they are not interconnected. 

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I agree here, but as mentioned, all indication so far is that Canthans developed their technology independently. I'm not convinced there's any solid support of Aetherblades being in Cantha before EoD, let alone Canthans deriving from other tech prior to 1327 AE. And even if they did derive from other tech post-1327 AE, that still wouldn't be long enough to reverse engineer, repurpose power supply, and wide-spread commercialize the technology by 1333/1334 AE.

That's fair I suppose, although it remains to be seen how much of Cantha has thus far been modernized. It may be more inline with your view than you seem to believe. As I recall one of the devs stating many Canthas are still struggling with the new tech replacing their old ways of life.

 And im not convinced that they couldn't develop the tech on their own. One of the reasons I brought up Native Americans, was to point out the fallacy of European Superiority, or as you mentioned, their inaccurate depiction of Native Americans as "savages". I don't agree with the belief that Asurans are vastly intellectually superior to other races, capable of creating tech that no other race can.

Id also like to note that technology advances the most via trade and war, and as I mentioned earlier perhaps Cantha was one of the Zepherites many port-of-calls and prehaps they fought with the Aetherblades.

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They're outlaws, but most of Tyria is wildlands still, and they were outlaws in the second half of Season 1 too, hunted down by Lion's Arch during Twilight Arbor's Aetherpath, and they were able to have that base hidden for quite a while.

On top of all that, nobody - as far as we know - were hunting them down after Season 1. They could have laid low in Tyria without issue.

Let's say they could have stayed, the simple fact is they didn't. We don't know at this point when exactly they went to Cantha, but we know they did, so they must have had a motive to do so -even if we don't know said motive as of yet. Since they had a motive, regardless of what it was, why wait? Perhaps the moment Scarlet fell Mai Trin realized she had nothing holding her back any longer, no ties to keep her there, and she could/should precede with her plan of going south to Cantha.

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I am also of Irish descent, as well as Italian. Similarly, I'm third/fourth-generation (depending on side of my father's family) immigrant and our families' cultures were dropped to Americanize. However, I don't think any of my family is all that interested in Irish or Italian culture or want to go there anymore than wanting to go to any other country of renown as vacation.

It certainly is plausible she'd want to visit. But taking a vacation in "one's ancestral homeland" would be quite a bit different than seeking asylum for oneself and a dozen others.

It's not the same for everyone; I want to know my roots, you couldn't give a skritt's kitten. But what if Mai Trin is more like me than you? I'm merely noting the possibility exist, and as such, could potentially be one of her motives. We never really learned her backstory, what drove her to crime, why she allied with Scarlet in the first place. Maybe she needed what Scarlet could provide(the tech, the airships) to accomplish her goal. And whatever her goal was, maybe it has something to do with Cantha.

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In regards to the dredge - in Sorrow's Embrace, the dredge openly welcome asura, while talk of conquering the charr, norn, and humans. So they're not above bringing others, especially if they can see them as lessers as refugees would. For the rest - above.

As for guilt by association, but that's something the norn don't give a kitten about, for starters; it's why they let Sons of Svanir who hadn't personally committed a crime stick around in Hoelbrak. Similar with Rata Sum, and how they give the Inquest a position on the Council and an entire corner of the cube equal to what the Peacekeepers get. Similarly, sylvari also avoid guilt by association as depicted in the sylvari lore blog post where Wardens leave krait young go because they hadn't committed a crime though they very well might in the future. For the rest - above.

It was more than association though, they didn't just know Scarlet, they weren't just relatives, or innocent bystanders, they were hardened criminals that followed her and fought for her.

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What we see in Omadd's Machine is The All, which is fundamentally different from the Eternal Alchemy - though several NPCs in S1 and S2 call them interchangably, I'd argue that's because Omadd believed the machien would show the Eternal Alchemy and that, in turn, is what Scarlet claimed she said. Basically a telephone game happened.

As mentioned, the Eternal Alchemy is the philosophical view of everything - in short, the multiverse. The All, or Antikytheryia, is just the magical system of the planet Tyria/Thyria.

That said, simply because there's a system, doesn't mean it's a fully functional, mathematical system. After all, The All is broken because of the Elder Dragons' greed, and the purpose of Glint's Legacy was to fix it.

And for all the technology the asura have created, a ton of it doesn't work as they expect - if they work at all. Most events in the open world, especially Metrica and Brisban, deal with haywire asura magitech. That implies the math is indeed wrong, since the machines don't work.

I thought the point of those three notions was to provide alternatives to the idea that the Aetherblades boosted jadetech development, though? Point 1 is only true because of external influence boosting tech (e.g., Aetherblades boosting jadetech). That's a bit self-contradicting, no?

Point 1 cannot work as an alternative to Aethertech boosting/creating Jadetech.

Fair enough, i'll cede this point. But one could argue that a scientific theory is only true until its proven otherwise. For all we know our theory of gravity is wrong. It we start questioning proven facts merely because they may someday be disproven, at what point does it end? What do we believe in?

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Simply my opinion, to those who insult me by proclaiming I'm "gatekeeping".

You didn't deserve that. But please understand up till that point you hadn't really been rolling out any facts, only saying I don't believe this because its not confirmed and doesn't feel right to me personally. At that point people were like, yo, why are you taring down our arguments just because you don't see it that way. Can the game only be the way you see it? So essentially they weren't upset that you were expressing your opinion but rather that you were posing it as the only right opinion, ie "gate keeping".

Edited December 28, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Kayberz.5346]

6 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

You didn't deserve that. But please understand up till that point you hadn't really been rolling out any facts, only saying I don't believe this because its not confirmed and doesn't feel right to me personally. At that point people were like, yo, why are you taring down our arguments just because you don't see it that way. Can the game only be the way you see it? So essentially they weren't upset that you were expressing your opinion but rather that you were posing it as the only right opinion, ie "gate keeping".

This

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

You know what forget it.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086