Problems with combat interactions in pvp match and pvp as whole

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Let me explain some basics that we already knew, before i get into real problems.

Before any combat happens, both sides are having all spells ready for cast. So naturally Anet devs thought about like this: strong spells-long cooldowns, weak spells-short cooldowns. However just because first combat interaction is allowing strongest spells to just spike so hard, you die and while you bleed out then come back to fight again, enemy cooldowns return again to one shot you again. We are having necros spells but also dragonhunter spells which just on first cast does 5k crits vs rabid amulet on almost every hit. 

Idea of february patch 2020 was to push out one shot builds and bring more interactive play and counterplay. Necros and Dragonhunter are not only problems of being able to just delete you but those two can sustain pressure for very long(thanks to shroud/life force for necros and trapper rune+blocks for dh). Some classes also do a big bursts but are more fragile, good example is berserker losses toughness and scrapper(flamethrower/grenade build) losses vitality. If you stun or reveal thief, it just dies. Mesmer is just squishy. So at least these 4 are fine as they are having their weakneses.
 

Ranger is another good example of very versatile class that can burst very hard.

Mentioning all of this is there to point at how spike damage is not healthy for the game as it doesn't prove the skill of its user but it neither allows counterplay from the enemy player. 

Easy fix and suggestion:
- cooldowns won't fix strong and spiky spells neither damage nerf is the option(as it would be direct nerf)
- longer cast times could fix spiky spells but also would bring enough time for interuption(counterplay), so just double the cast times for big spells which would make sense to first use cc in order to cast a powerful spell
- versatile classes needs some trade off, so cool: necros can remove your buffs, apply debuffs, be super tanky and also do 5k crits......where is the balance in there? Especially as it got quickness(reaper) its cast times are almost instant and animation for some spells are either fast or not existent (pointing at spinal shivers). 

[lightDestroyer.1265]

6 minutes ago, Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

Let me explain some basics that we already knew, before i get into real problems.

Before any combat happens, both sides are having all spells ready for cast. So naturally Anet devs thought about like this: strong spells-long cooldowns, weak spells-short cooldowns. However just because first combat interaction is allowing strongest spells to just spike so hard, you die and while you bleed out then come back to fight again, enemy cooldowns return again to one shot you again. We are having necros spells but also dragonhunter spells which just on first cast does 5k crits vs rabid amulet on almost every hit. 

Idea of february patch 2020 was to push out one shot builds and bring more interactive play and counterplay. Necros and Dragonhunter are not only problems of being able to just delete you but those two can sustain pressure for very long(thanks to shroud/life force for necros and trapper rune+blocks for dh). Some classes also do a big bursts but are more fragile, good example is berserker losses toughness and scrapper(flamethrower/grenade build) losses vitality. If you stun or reveal thief, it just dies. Mesmer is just squishy. So at least these 4 are fine as they are having their weakneses.
 

Ranger is another good example of very versatile class that can burst very hard.

Mentioning all of this is there to point at how spike damage is not healthy for the game as it doesn't prove the skill of its user but it neither allows counterplay from the enemy player. 

Easy fix and suggestion:
- cooldowns won't fix strong and spiky spells neither damage nerf is the option(as it would be direct nerf)
- longer cast times could fix spiky spells but also would bring enough time for interuption(counterplay), so just double the cast times for big spells which would make sense to first use cc in order to cast a powerful spell
- versatile classes needs some trade off, so cool: necros can remove your buffs, apply debuffs, be super tanky and also do 5k crits......where is the balance in there? Especially as it got quickness(reaper) its cast times are almost instant and animation for some spells are either fast or not existent (pointing at spinal shivers). 

You think reaper doeant have cast time,  play it. 

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Everything that is bellow 2 seconds cast time but does big damage is just too fast, especially with quickness(reaper).

[Ragnar.4257]

This is a very weird take.

 

First of all, for all its problems, necro is a very odd choice to pick out as an example of "instant 1-shot damage". It's, like, the worst class for attempting to 1-shot with. It has great sustained damage, but the only "burst" you'll see coming from necro is spin-to-win in reaper shroud, which you can see coming from orbit.

 

Second, pick an argument and stick to it. If untelegraphed spike damage is your issue, then berserker and scrapper being squishy isn't relevant, they can still spike hard. If overall "strength" is your issue, then the real culprit here is sustain, not damage.

 

Third, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that the problem at the moment is "too much damage". You suggest increasing cast-times without reducing damage, but that is still effectively a massive reduction in damage, since you make it exponentially easier for people to dodge or otherwise negate damage. You'll literally never land a 2s cast skill on someone who's paying attention, it's effectively a 100% damage nerf.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Svez Poizon XD.5268

There are too many factors you are not evaluating about these builds you are discussing. One cannot give sound compare & contrast about balance without evaluating ALL aspects of the builds that are in a current meta-game. There is a lot more going on that just looking at general damage output and burst potential, when nailing down what is OP and what is UP when you're talking overall performance value.

Here is an example of a better evaluation:

Sic Em Soulbeast

• * S+ Burst Potential
• * C+ Sustained Damage Output
• * D+ Face Tanking Sustain vs. Power
• * C- Face Tanking Sustain vs. Condi
• * B+ Slippery Type Of Sustain "Dodges, Evades, Blocks, Stealths, General Mobility"
• * B+ General Mobility For Rotations, A+ if merged with Gazelle
• * B+ CC Output
• * B+ Anti CC Potential "Stab & Stun Breaks"
• * E- Offensive Support "Boon Removal/Converts, Vuln Stack, Offensive Party Buffs"
• * F- Defensive Support "Heals, Defensive Party Buffs, Revive Power"
• * D-  Utility Support "Party Stealths, Party Teleports, Propagating Kits or Items for Party"
• * Summary = This build has balanced matches against most things in 1v1 situations. It hard counters all Necro specs, all Thief specs, and DHs who lean on Trap Rune Stealth. It gets hard countered by Power Herald, Core Ranger LB/GS built for sustain, CC heavy Holos, Condi Mirage, and Fire Weaver. Sic Em Soulbeast is best played as Peeling +1 Role, as an alternative DP Daredevil. It can + team fights but it is no team fighter, and it offers no support value at all.

 

^ So you see in this case here, DPS output is all that build has. According to your OP statement, that would make this build first in line to be nerfed. But in reality, you don't see anyone in NA at least, playing builds like this except for Eurantien & myself, because you need to be a kitten who dumped all their time into Ranger over the past 10 years to actually get away with running a build like this competitively. If you were to nerf the damage on this build, like enough to bring it from S+ to just A+, it would be entirely useless and unplayable, even for middle tier. Comparably, if you were to evaluate the stats of something like a Holosmith to this build, you'd see how much higher the overall stat block is on the Holosmith, and that Holo is just far more well rounded for conquest play.

But if we were talking about WvW, this entirely changes. In WvW Soulbeast is absolutely a top 3 roam build when approaching opponents in wide open areas from extreme range. It is no zerg build though. It feels like you're doing great when you hide in a zerg and 1shot guys while you have cover, but truthfully, the ones who are really getting things done are all the zerg builds balled up rolling over stuff.

In conquest, Soulbeast builds are A+ tier maximum. In WvW they can be S+ tier roamers but only C+ zergers.

Changing 1 thing to balance a class who is OP in conquest will also effect its performance in WvW where it wasn't so good to begin with, as example. Then we get into skill splits, which are great, until we start doing too many skill splits, and then everything just starts feeling wonky and out of line. Balance changes aren't so easy to diagnose tbh.

Just something to think about.

[lightDestroyer.1265]

17 hours ago, Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

Everything that is bellow 2 seconds cast time but does big damage is just too fast, especially with quickness(reaper).

Well, 2 sec is a lot and literally every class bursts.  Also,  reaper still takes time,  and it has counters. 

[Genesis.5169]

 

[Morwath.9817]

I think GW1 had the best PvP I ever played... and while literaly one shotting people was possible it required whole team effort.