If Anet is nerfing Firebrand, what do you think about this?

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Making your proposal even do the thing you want it to just requires throwing out too many babies with the bathwater, and like many such proposals, you're not considering how the meta would react or how it would affect other areas of the game.

Considering this games the only game which doesn't have some form of hybrid tax I'd honestly say there's a reason for it. 

Hybrid builds completely dominate the field realistically and they shouldnt be. 

The idea is u trade personal DPS for raid DPS at a balanced measure effectively.

Firebrand doing 30k DPS won't change its meta position it just means it isn't the answer to absolutely everything anymore. Instead of just gutting it down. 

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Considering this games the only game which doesn't have some form of hybrid tax I'd honestly say there's a reason for it. 

Hybrid builds completely dominate the field realistically and they shouldnt be. 

The idea is u trade personal DPS for raid DPS at a balanced measure effectively.

Firebrand doing 30k DPS won't change its meta position it just means it isn't the answer to absolutely everything anymore. Instead of just gutting it down. 

Which firebrand are you talking about doing 30k DPS?

 

For healbrand, that'd be a gamebreakingly huge buff. I presume that's not what you're suggesting.

 

For pure DPS firebrand, it'd be gone because without quickness it's just not going to justify a spot at 30K DPS regardless of the tomes, and if you gut pure DPS firebrand that much, I can assure you that any firebrand build that isn't a healbrand would ALSO be gone, because you can't do much below 30K and still be considered viable as a hybrid DPS/support. If a 25% damage nerf to pure DPS firebrand carried over to condi quickbrand, that'd put condi quickbrand at ~23.5k DPS. For comparison, power quickness chrono does ~27k DPS and power quickness scrapper does ~29kDPS, and neither of those are lacking in additional utility. 

 

For condi quickbrand... that's about what the result of what I'm proposing would be. Condi quickbrands would need to take less offensive stats, which would reduce their damage. Condition quickbrand is already at ~32K, so to achieve a target of 30k would be less than a 10% reduction (and would still leave it with higher DPS than the competitors).

 

So to even judge what you're suggesting, you'll need to commit to either essentially agreeing with my end result even if you disagree with the method (option 3) or to essentially wanting non-healbrand firebrand to become completely uncompetitive (option 2).

 

But hey, let's look at comparisons with DPS condi firebrand. The eight page version benches at 39k. That's not top by any means, it requires idling in tome while skills 4 and 5 recharge which cuts into your opportunity to use that utility you seem to be talking about, and I'd argue that there are other builds up there that also offer utility beyond damage, but let's, for the sake of argument, say that this puts it into pure DPS and it shouldn't be because it offers other utility. If we cut it by, say, 10%, that would put it close to banners territory (~34.5k for condi banners, ~33.5k for power strength banners). Sure, a clutch Tome of Resolve or Courage might help a less experienced group survive a crisis moment, but are you really going to claim that the utility on this build (keeping in mind that this is a benchmark for a DPS firebrand that doesn't provide quickness, once you need to provide quickness as well that drops to 32k or below) deserves a greater "hybrid tax" to banners?

 

So maybe you could argue for about a 10% reduction on damage, but no more than that. The 25% you seem to be arguing for would kill everything except healbrand. 

 

My suggestion, though, also opens up more options outside of group play as well. At the moment, if you're playing solo on firebrand, you pretty much want to be running a quickness hybrid build anyway, since if you can't assume someone else is giving you quickness, giving yourself quickness is probably the single most effective means of boosting your DPS (even if running solo means you might not be able to 100% it since you don't have alacrity). Leaving non-quickness firebrand alone while reducing the base quickness uptimes, though, would increase the relative viability of builds that don't have quickness application nailed to their bar.

[supporthero.4520]

Just nerf base quickness of Firebrand traits forcing qFB to invest more stats into maintaining a healthy quickness uptime.
Heal and hybrid builds won't be affected by this because their job is also to help with might generation, so they run a much higher boon duration anyway. 
qFB's DPS would go down to 30k and back in line with power quickness builds like chrono and scrapper.

 

I don't think the DPS of my 8 pages rotation is problematic compared to builds like cRen that deal 43k DPS with allies. You can't run Liberator's Vow to give quickness because of the 8 Pages trait and you also can't really stack several 8 Pages cFB's in the same subgroup because of the way Ashes of the Just works.
But if you wanted to change anything about cFB, you would need to rework Ashes of the Just and balance cFB's DPS from there.

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, supporthero.4520 said:

Just nerf base quickness of Firebrand traits forcing qFB to invest more stats into maintaining a healthy quickness uptime.
Heal and hybrid builds won't be affected by this because their job is also to help with might generation, so they run a much higher boon duration anyway. 
qFB's DPS would go down to 30k and back in line with power quickness builds like chrono and scrapper

This sorta fix just basically creates dead buttons, your specc shouldn't be a listed format of builds which allow a different 7 buttons to be viable.

The proffession should be balanced in a sense that every ability it has is always used. People sadly have a fixation on every build having super high DPS. 

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which firebrand are you talking about doing 30k DPS?

 

For healbrand, that'd be a gamebreakingly huge buff. I presume that's not what you're suggesting

No 😂 i ment as in its highest dps. I think the game is in need of hybrid tax. Hybrid proffessions currently basically make pure DPS options worthless currently. 

Healbrand would have to lose more damage effectively. And offensive support builds being closer. 

Pure DPS options such as weaver only have a place in pve content if being a hybrid has a cut on the DPS output. 

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

For pure DPS firebrand, it'd be gone because without quickness it's just not going to justify a spot at 30K DPS regardless of the tomes

But firebrand isn't susposed to be a pure DPS. Things like weaver are. Why should firebrand do DPS as high as a weaver while also being capable of hybridizing in multiple ways while weaver has no option. 

Problem is the game has decided to make pure.dps speccs with 0 options outside of only pure DPS. Then make hybrids with access to builds that do the same level of DPS. 

This is massively contradicting. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, supporthero.4520 said:

Just nerf base quickness of Firebrand traits forcing qFB to invest more stats into maintaining a healthy quickness uptime.
Heal and hybrid builds won't be affected by this because their job is also to help with might generation, so they run a much higher boon duration anyway. 
qFB's DPS would go down to 30k and back in line with power quickness builds like chrono and scrapper.

 

I don't think the DPS of my 8 pages rotation is problematic compared to builds like cRen that deal 43k DPS with allies. You can't run Liberator's Vow to give quickness because of the 8 Pages trait and you also can't really stack several 8 Pages cFB's in the same subgroup because of the way Ashes of the Just works.
But if you wanted to change anything about cFB, you would need to rework Ashes of the Just and balance cFB's DPS from there.

cFB does 34K or so solo if you are 5 page or 8 page, it isn't just Ashes of the Just that is impacting the damage numbers.
That isn't even including F1 resets (which don't happen on a golem) or any additional damage triggers when Permeating Wrath hits more than one target (also doesn't happen on a golem).

Quickness scrapper right now is ~27-29K depending on boon duration (i.e. if you run the 25% gear boon duration from before Kinetic Accelerators buff it's 26.6K or so) and StM chrono is ~28K at best (without additional boon durations). Neither are cDPS so they're already at a massive disadvantage from the start for fractals after exposed changes. The current meta firebrand for raiding uses firebrand runes which gives you a massive leeway for quickness as 40% is nearly double the required 25% boon duration.

Even alacrity renegade is sort of an offender here, it used to be 24-27K or so, now it is pushing close to 28K DPS (30K with allies for cele condi). Really condi ren should be reverted to the damage it was before devastation changes as well as torment patch at a minimum (~33K condi RR , ~37K full cDPS). You cannot point to renegade , a recently overtuned build which uses 2 legends and 2 weapons, and compare it with firebrand which uses 2 weaponsets and a tome that instantly resets when there are adds (i.e. Slothasor or most fractals with added mobs).

Given the 2s burning on Virtue of Justice passive , perhaps Ashes of the Just could be cut in as far as base burning duration (rather than the 3s it has now which nearly in line with Virtue of Justice active) especially since it has 3 stacks of the buff. That would reduce the variance between solo and with allies as well.

-----

P.S. let it be known that I disagree with draxynnic.3719.

Mantra of Potence should not be hit at all in terms of quickness. Instead the quickness/aegis of mantra of solace should be changed to have higher cooldown if you don't trait mantra cooldowns. The reason is because you can take mantra of solace without penalty on a condi DPS build. If you take mantra of potence you automatically give up damage as the utilities on CFB all provide damage directly (Purging Flames , Mantra of Flame) and Signet of Wrath indirectly. Even on the older variant with Sword of Justice instead of Purging Flames , it's the same type of impact. It also means you can't take an additional utility such as "Stand Your Ground" without severe damage loss.

39K is basically top damage right now, I don't know why there is this denial. How often do you see rifle deadeye outside QtP for example ; condi daredevil with allies ; condi weaver (which needs to be played perfectly and is "just DPS" but also boon reliant) , and condi axe mirage (which essentially has little utility)? Condi ren is the other overtuned spec after torment changes. Firebrand cDPS doing 29K solo and 35K in a group probably would not be as problematic especially if the mantra of solace wasn't readily available to aegis everyone; same goes for if cQB with 5 pages were doing 25K solo and 28K in a group. Right now it's ~39.6K for 8 page CFB (~33.6K solo) , 37.7K 5 page with allies (~34.8K solo with scepter). Banners has nothing to save a wipe whatsoever, unless it is CC on Samarog or something like that. The way I see it is the spec with most utility (if you don't think converting 5 condis to boons and putting out +33% healing effectiveness can save you , or a reflect , 4s of pulsing resistance, or aegis + stab + protection with +300 toughness I don't know what to say) should have lowest DPS. Just have a look at reaper or scrapper, those have in built utility (superspeed gyros/ function gyro or boon rips) and they are 34K as full DPS.

Power quickbrand was ~24K DPS at best sustained DPS so it's really condi that's the problem. With the changes to exposed, people don't even run it in fractals anymore unless in an extreme speedclear. Even on a power boss such as KC or VG where StM chrono / quick scrapper would be better , it would struggle to keep up with cQB. No pQB is taking a spot of a DPS.

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

This sorta fix just basically creates dead buttons, your specc shouldn't be a listed format of builds which allow a different 7 buttons to be viable.

The proffession should be balanced in a sense that every ability it has is always used. People sadly have a fixation on every build having super high DPS. 

That's wrong on four levels.

 

First, because nerfing the base group quickness of firebrand doesn't create dead buttons in the first place. Firebrand isn't forced to take area quickness. It comes out of an optional skill (Mantra of Potence) and a couple of optional traits (the quickness on minor traits only affects the firebrand themselves). If you're not intending to be the quickness applier of your group, you don't take those skills and traits and have no so-called "dead buttons". Simple.

 

Second, because even if F2 and F3 was impacted, getting a little extra healing or protection is still useful, even if a DPS firebrand is less likely to use those buttons than others. And those are the only so-called "dead buttons" on a pure DPS build, since such a build would have weapons and slot skills oriented towards DPS.

 

Third, because ArenaNet's design principles disagree with you. Profession design on the whole has a lot of skills where the value of a particular skill depends on your build and your situation. Consider mesmers, for instance - you're always going to have F1 and F2 regardless of whether your build is power or condi, but a power build is going to want to favour F1, and a condi build is likely to favour F2. Revenants often have a few legend skills that they actually use and some that aren't suited to their build and/or the mode they're playing. Any boon removal skill is going to be less useful if the enemy doesn't have boons. I could probably keep going, but the point is that it's okay to have some skills that are more or less useful depending on build.

 

Fourth, because your own proposal would turn F1 into a dead button. If firebrands can't do damage, what's the point of a damage-oriented ability?

 

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No 😂 i ment as in its highest dps. I think the game is in need of hybrid tax. Hybrid proffessions currently basically make pure DPS options worthless currently. 

Healbrand would have to lose more damage effectively. And offensive support builds being closer. 

So you're committing to destroying every firebrand build except healbrand, then. 30K DPS is not competitive for a DPS build, and being able to pop F2 or F3 tomes to provide a bit of healing and protection for emergencies is not going to offset that in any organised team environment. The 23-24k DPS that this would reduce quickbrand to is also not competitive against other DPS+quickness hybrid builds.

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Pure DPS options such as weaver only have a place in pve content if being a hybrid has a cut on the DPS output. 

But firebrand isn't susposed to be a pure DPS. Things like weaver are. Why should firebrand do DPS as high as a weaver while also being capable of hybridizing in multiple ways while weaver has no option. 

Problem is the game has decided to make pure.dps speccs with 0 options outside of only pure DPS. Then make hybrids with access to builds that do the same level of DPS. 

This is massively contradicting. 

I've seen you beating this drum on other subforums, but your philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Part of the charm of Guild Wars 2 is that your role relies more on your build than on your profession or even specialisation. If you had two builds that were of one specialisation, one oriented towards damage, and one oriented towards support, but they have literally nothing in common with each other apart from the elite specialisation minor traits (using different minor traits, different core traitlines, different weapons, and different slot skills) then why should one of those builds be punished just because the other exists?

 

Specialisations don't have roles, builds do. The weaver that you tout as "pure DPS" can also be played as a sustainy tank (but that isn't really required in PvE) or even a healer (although it's outperformed by heal tempest... but hey, DPS builds for tempest exist too). Builds should be addressed on their own, not due to the existence of some other build that does something different to the one being considered. The pure DPS firebrand has four support elements that it could arguably have to pay a "hybrid tax" for: Tome of Resolve, Tome of Courage, the area effect of Mantra of Solace, and the condition cleansing of Purging Flames. And as I showed, a nerf of 10% to damage brings pure DPS firebrand to banner warrior territory. So, I repeat: are you claiming that these supportive elements are equivalent or greater in value to warrior banners? Because I'm pretty sure that most people would say they're not.

 

Fundamentally, firebrand has two roles: condition damage, and support. It has a build that goes for maximum condition damage with a little support, a build that goes full support with negligible damage, and a build that sits in the middle ground between the two.

 

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

P.S. let it be known that I disagree with draxynnic.3719.

Mantra of Potence should not be hit at all in terms of quickness. Instead the quickness/aegis of mantra of solace should be changed to have higher cooldown if you don't trait mantra cooldowns. The reason is because you can take mantra of solace without penalty on a condi DPS build. If you take mantra of potence you automatically give up damage as the utilities on CFB all provide damage directly (Purging Flames , Mantra of Flame) and Signet of Wrath indirectly. Even on the older variant with Sword of Justice instead of Purging Flames , it's the same type of impact. It also means you can't take an additional utility such as "Stand Your Ground" without severe damage loss.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting as an alternative here - nerfing the count recharge of Mantra of Solace, the effectiveness of Liberator's Vow and Stalwart Speed, or both?

 

However, I'm inclined to disagree here. You're right in that taking Mantra of Potence is a DPS loss - this is part of why condi quickbrand does less damage than pure DPS firebrand, after all - but what you're missing is that the other aspects also require DPS losses. Taking the traits that convert Mantra of Solace into quickness means that you're not taking traits that contribute to damage on a pure DPS firebrand, and therefore, they're also a DPS loss (assuming the group has quickness covered). The only thing that Mantra of Solace provides without traits is a bit of group aegis - which could be very useful if timed well to block a dangerous attack, but that's about all. Pure condi firebrand doesn't have any of the traits that trigger off aegis.

 

You could argue that taking the traits does provide more quickness for less DPS loss, so maybe the traits are the initial target - I haven't done the numbers in that detail. But the general proposal I was making was "nerf group quickness uptime so a quickbrand can't 100% it in full Viper's". I'm indifferent as to precisely how that happens, just that the source of that quickness is Potence, the two traits, and how those traits interact with Solace.

Quote

39K is basically top damage right now, I don't know why there is this denial. How often do you see rifle deadeye outside QtP for example ; condi daredevil with allies ; condi weaver (which needs to be played perfectly and is "just DPS" but also boon reliant) , and condi axe mirage (which essentially has little utility)? Condi ren is the other overtuned spec after torment changes. Firebrand cDPS doing 29K solo and 35K in a group probably would not be as problematic especially if the mantra of solace wasn't readily available to aegis everyone; same goes for if cQB with 5 pages were doing 25K solo and 28K in a group. Right now it's ~39.6K for 8 page CFB (~33.6K solo) , 37.7K 5 page with allies (~34.8K solo with scepter). Banners has nothing to save a wipe whatsoever, unless it is CC on Samarog or something like that. The way I see it is the spec with most utility (if you don't think converting 5 condis to boons and putting out +33% healing effectiveness can save you , or a reflect , 4s of pulsing resistance, or aegis + stab + protection with +300 toughness I don't know what to say) should have lowest DPS. Just have a look at reaper or scrapper, those have in built utility (superspeed gyros/ function gyro or boon rips) and they are 34K as full DPS.

Top DPS is over 40k, but I'll entertain the notion that those are either outliers that should also get nerfed down, or overly sensitive to mechanics and don't often achieve that in practice.

 

My litmus test, however, as noted above, is banners. Sure, banners won't save a wipe, but on the other hand, you're only threatened with a wipe if something goes wrong. So if you're going to demand that the pure condi firebrand gets its damage nerfed to below banner warrior level, then you need to justify that Tome of Resolve, Tome of Courage, a bit of condi cleanse, and a bit of aegis is equivalent to banners. And maybe they are, if you have an experienced firebrand player saving a less experienced group - but I'd argue that if the build is only really useful for experienced players who run with less experienced players, that's a little too niche. Saving a wipe with firebrand requires a reasonably experienced player, and players capable of reliably doing that will likely either be playing with players experienced enough that they're less likely to do that, or they're effectively there to train up less experienced players (whether that's what they signed up for or not). Frankly, if anything, I think it's beneficial to the health of the endgame to have a build that happens to be really good for training, but if the build gets nerfed by 10% or more than I expect it will disappear from everything else.

 

The examples of power reaper and power scrapper are, I think, examples of builds that technically exist, but where the utility they provide is not worth the damage they offer. They're generally not taken, and with good reason. Power reaper doesn't even have the utility you claim without further DPS loss... but condi reaper does, at a 37k benchmark, and helps provide Might with Blood is Power as well. For full power scrapper... honestly, that seems to be pretty much there as a beginner-friendly build, with more experienced engineer players expected to switch to holosmith. I don't think a bit of superspeed is worth giving up that much DPS, but what scrapper brings is an easy rotation that's unlikely to be disrupted and a tough build that might survive things that would kill other DPS builds.

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Power quickbrand was ~24K DPS at best sustained DPS so it's really condi that's the problem. With the changes to exposed, people don't even run it in fractals anymore unless in an extreme speedclear. Even on a power boss such as KC or VG where StM chrono / quick scrapper would be better , it would struggle to keep up with cQB. No pQB is taking a spot of a DPS.

Okay, so the proposal to nerf condi firebrand damage by close to 25% would just go straight to killing every firebrand build except healbrand, then. 

PS The general point I was making, though, is that the builds still draw on core stuff for a lot of their damage. I don't think condi firebrand can be nerfed to 30K without either heavily nerfing the components that come from core (torch, signet, Purging Flames, Radiance and Virtues traits) or nerfing Tome of Justice so hard that it's just no longer worth using (when the advocate for that nerf is trying to claim a moral high ground over avoiding "dead buttons"). 

Edited November 23, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

irst, because nerfing the base group quickness of firebrand doesn't create dead buttons in the first place. Firebrand isn't forced to take area quickness. It comes out of an optional skill (Mantra of Potence) and a couple of optional traits (the quickness on minor traits only affects the firebrand themselves). If you're not intending to be the quickness applier of your group, you don't take those skills and traits and have no so-called "dead buttons". Simple.

one example.. yet u ignore the fact DPS Firebrand Completely ignores 2/3 Tomes entirely, I.E 10 Dead buttons.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Fourth, because your own proposal would turn F1 into a dead button. If firebrands can't do damage, what's the point of a damage-oriented ability?

I didnt say "make firebrand do litterally 0 DPS" i said It shouldnt be doing DPS Equal to a Pure DPS.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I've seen you beating this drum on other subforums, but your philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Part of the charm of Guild Wars 2 is that your role relies more on your build than on your profession or even specialisation. If you had two builds that were of one specialisation, one oriented towards damage, and one oriented towards support, but they have literally nothing in common with each other apart from the elite specialisation minor traits (using different minor traits, different core traitlines, different weapons, and different slot skills) then why should one of those builds be punished just because the other exists

it doesnt remove the fact it quite litterally does conflict with itself.

Why make "Pure DPS" With no access to utility / Support.. to then make Support builds access higher DPS BUilds.. it fundamentally is flawed in Design.. not my Philosphy. The game Contradicts itself via doing this.

if a Pure DPS Cant access Utility.

Why can a Utility Specc access DPS?

your Even statement States this "Guild wars 2 is that your role relies more on your build then your proffession".. Well guess what?.. Weaver CANNOT fill any other role Regardless of their build effectively.. it has no Options.

I,E your hybrid proffessions become Insanely Strong and Overpowered So we see these proffessions Gutted down for the sake of balancing because the mechanic is So blindingly Overpowered, hybrid Tax Does need to exist if ur going to create Pure DPS Options otherwise u make them redundent.

Theres 0 Reason to bring a Weaver when ur Firebrand can do the same DPS with far more Options.

Their Philosphy doesnt support the existance of Pure DPS Options.. so maybe its about time They actually made their  mind up on it.. Dont Put Pure DPS Options in the game if u intend hybrid Choices to equalise them in DPS without any down Fall.

Renegade / Firebrand / Scourge Dominant Every other choice in this game Because of this.

if FIrebrands allowed to do 38k DPS. Give Weaver access to the same Utilities and Supportive Capabilities to the same Level. Draw a Line and Retain it, Dont create absolutely worthless Jokes of a Concept and Leave the proffession in a bin somewhere for 4 years because of it.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Specialisations don't have roles, builds do. The weaver that you tout as "pure DPS" can also be played as a sustainy tank (but that isn't really required in PvE) or even a healer (although it's outperformed by heal tempest... but hey, DPS builds for tempest exist too). Builds should be addressed on their own, not due to the existence of some other build that does something different to the one being considered. The pure DPS firebrand has four support elements that it could arguably have to pay a "hybrid tax" for: Tome of Resolve, Tome of Courage, the area effect of Mantra of Solace, and the condition cleansing of Purging Flames. And as I showed, a nerf of 10% to damage brings pure DPS firebrand to banner warrior territory. So, I repeat: are you claiming that these supportive elements are equivalent or greater in value to warrior banners? Because I'm pretty sure that most people would say they're not.

Yah. u could make ur Weaver tank. however why?.

Firebrand Brings a Top Line support. a Top Line DPS Option and one of the best boon suppliers for Quickness.

Tempest brings a Mediocre DPS option which is only Realistic because of how power crept the game is.. and Weavers "tanking" is Mediocre at best.

their design isnt Consistent. if they want every build to be able to do everything Via Changing traits. Run the rule across the board .

Edited November 23, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Infusion.7149]

@draxynnic.3719:
What you're forgetting is if you need even 100% boon duration you can run two CFBs. Therefore so long as mantra of solace (and to a lesser extent FMW elite shout) can provide a substantial amount of quickness you don't lose as much DPS as you think (although ideally you stagger tome of justice ashes). People are able to run near full plaguedoctor CQB (far less glass than firebrand rune) currently and still pull 29K.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqJSw_9i1g8

Being able to convert 5 condis is a huge impact on Sloth / Matthias / Soulless Horror for starters so it isn't just for inexp groups , it's for non-perfect reality. Being able to reflect on Matthias is needed to actually kill it.

Honestly I stand by my comment it would be far healthier for the game if CFB were ~34-35K DPS in group and ~29-30K solo. Even if you are talking about guardian in general , when you aren't able to abuse aegis for Unscathed Contender , Radiance DH does ~36K. Keep in mind if your swiftness uptime is poor or not flanking berserker loses 10% DPS.

P.S. Reaper boon rips on GS4 and Axe 3

Edited November 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[draxynnic.3719]

42 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

@draxynnic.3719:
What you're forgetting is if you need even 100% boon duration you can run two CFBs. Therefore so long as mantra of solace (and to a lesser extent FMW elite shout) can provide a substantial amount of quickness you don't lose as much DPS as you think. People are able to run near full plaguedoctor CQB (far less glass than firebrand rune) currently and still pull 29K.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqJSw_9i1g8

You're still giving up DPS if you're getting quickness out of the CFB. If you're doing it with Mantra of Solace, you're giving up the extra pages from Archivist of Whispers, the extra burning from Legendary Lore, or both. And if you're running FMW instead of Renewed Focus, you're giving up an extra tome activation every 90s. I'm not sure how much of a DPS loss that is overall, but it is certainly not going to be pulling 39k after those sacrifices. At that point, you're closer to running CQB with Mantra of Flame instead of Potence then you are to running CFB.

What you seem to be forgetting is that on the CFB that's pulling 39k, there is no quickness from Mantra of Solace. Zip. Zero. Nada. Mantra of Solace only generates Quickness if you're running traits to do so, and the CFB that's pulling 39k isn't running those traits. (PS I think another consideration is that eight-page CFB has something of an awkward rotation, which possibly does justify having a slightly higher DPS than simpler rotations. YMMV, but the build does involves periods of waiting for ToJ skills 4 and 5 to come off cooldown, which might end up being lost DPS if that waiting means that a burn phase ends or something like that.)

If you're needing two firebrands to do a job that you'd normally do with one, and we considered 39k to be the benchmark for a DPS build and 28k to be the benchmark for a party quickness build (that's what chronomancers and scrappers bench at with quickness builds), then your two-CFBs-with-quickness-between-them would have to be still doing at least 33.5k each to make up for the DPS slot you've given up to have a second quickness slot. And maybe they do - I haven't seen the numbers for that build, and 33.5k isn't that much higher than regular CQB - but I hope we can both agree that the proposal to cut firebrand damage by 25% would be overly heavy-handed, no?

Edited November 23, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You're still giving up DPS if you're getting quickness out of the CFB. If you're doing it with Mantra of Solace, you're giving up the extra pages from Archivist of Whispers, the extra burning from Legendary Lore, or both. And if you're running FMW instead of Renewed Focus, you're giving up an extra tome activation every 90s. I'm not sure how much of a DPS loss that is overall, but it is certainly not going to be pulling 39k after those sacrifices. At that point, you're closer to running CQB with Mantra of Flame instead of Potence then you are to running CFB.

What you seem to be forgetting is that on the CFB that's pulling 39k, there is no quickness from Mantra of Solace. Zip. Zero. Nada. Mantra of Solace only generates Quickness if you're running traits to do so, and the CFB that's pulling 39k isn't running those traits. (PS I think another consideration is that eight-page CFB has something of an awkward rotation, which possibly does justify having a slightly higher DPS than simpler rotations. YMMV, but the build does involves periods of waiting for ToJ skills 4 and 5 to come off cooldown, which might end up being lost DPS if that waiting means that a burn phase ends or something like that.)

If you're needing two firebrands to do a job that you'd normally do with one, and we considered 39k to be the benchmark for a DPS build and 28k to be the benchmark for a party quickness build (that's what chronomancers and scrappers bench at with quickness builds), then your two-CFBs-with-quickness-between-them would have to be still doing at least 33.5k each to make up for the DPS slot you've given up to have a second quickness slot. And maybe they do - I haven't seen the numbers for that build, and 33.5k isn't that much higher than regular CQB - but I hope we can both agree that the proposal to cut firebrand damage by 25% would be overly heavy-handed, no?

I've seen calls by Teapot for CQB ,and scourge DPS to be 25K... which is pretty ludicrous. Alac ren, a class that used to be ~
24K before they buffed devastation to include lifesteal affects 10 targets with alac and puts out prot. Strongest support should be <30K though, especially things like cele or seraph FB which also heal.

33K for 2 cFBs if they share mantra of potence seems about right to me, since condi RR is basically that (at least it was before torment changes so it should be readjusted as well). Generally speaking the first skill you drop on CQB for "Stand your ground" or sanctuary is signet of wrath. On 8 page CFB with full boons and banners Purging Flames is ~50K damage with 16 cooldown under alac which should be ~3K DPS, Mantra of Flame is ~7K damage on 12s ammo cooldown = <600 DPS. Dropping signet means burn does ~715 instead of ~750 aka > 95% of burning is retained (burning makes up 81% of damage): if a 8 page build can run mantra of potence it would still push close to 37-38K DPS which is problematic.

If you look at the bench with 5 pages (~37.7K)  dated July 2021 Renewed Focus is not used.

If you go back a year to July 2020, the benchmark for CFB was 33K without allies (37K with allies) so it isn't an insane proposition to cut everything 10%. For the longest time 8 page was only shown on LuckyNoobs so it fell under the radar.
https://web.archive.org/web/20201113181457/https://www.snowcrows.com/benchmarks/
https://web.archive.org/web/20201128130136/https://lucky-noobs.com/benchmarks
https://web.archive.org/web/20200719181941/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

2019 it was 28K solo and 33K with allies but just about every DPS build gained ~2-3K in 2020
https://web.archive.org/web/2019011517K DPS)23541/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/


Just so you know, mantra of solace is indeed the primary problem, see https://discretize.eu/builds/guardian/condi-firebrand/

Quote

Multiple DPS Firebrands

This build assumes you are playing in a comp with multiple Condi Firebrands and allows Legendary Lore and Renewed Focus to be played for more DPS and an additional Tome reset.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I've seen calls by Teapot for CQB ,and scourge DPS to be 25K... which is pretty ludicrous. Alac ren, a class that used to be ~
24K before they buffed devastation to include lifesteal affects 10 targets with alac and puts out prot. Strongest support should be <30K though, especially things like cele or seraph FB which also heal.

Yeah, I'm not saying that Teapot and his group's analysis of the strength of CQB and Scourge is wrong, but I do think they overrate "good at preventing wipes" a little too much, because they spend more time in training raids and/or PUG raids than most raiders do. IMO, having builds that are good at helping less experienced players get through raids is good for the game, and it's a little inconsistent that Teapot et al is calling for those builds to be nerfed hard while also trying to encourage more people to get into raids. There is a valid case to be made that there's a problem when the "good at preventing wipes" builds are the same as the optimum speedrun builds, but I don't think "good at preventing wipes" should really be considered something that's worth offsetting too much DPS.

 

Which is kinda the problem with herald. Teapot's right in that the boons and boon duration extension that herald provides is underrated... but I'm not sure that it's worth ~10K DPS, particularly not for experienced groups. Damage isn't everything, but it does help prevent wipes due to DPS checks or just making the fight shorter so there's less opportunity for someone to make a critical mistake.

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

33K for 2 cFBs if they share mantra of potence seems about right to me, since condi RR is basically that (at least it was before torment changes so it should be readjusted as well). Generally speaking the first skill you drop on CQB for "Stand your ground" or sanctuary is signet of wrath. On 8 page CFB with full boons and banners Purging Flames is ~50K damage with 16 cooldown under alac which should be ~3K DPS, Mantra of Flame is ~7K damage on 12s ammo cooldown = <600 DPS. Dropping signet means burn does ~715 instead of ~750 aka > 95% of burning is retained (burning makes up 81% of damage): if a 8 page build can run mantra of potence it would still push close to 37-38K DPS which is problematic.

I think the distinguishing factor here is that condi RR is 10-target while firebrand quickness is 5-target, so if you split it up between two, that means that in 10-man situations your alacrity is still coming from two sources rather than four. Although I'd argue there that taking two hybrid condi alacrigades over one full alacrigade and one full condi renegade is a DPS loss - alacrigade sits at ~28k for both power and condi variants, full condi renegade does ~40k, so averaging them out taking two hybrid condi alacrigades to do the job of one full alacrigade would require ~34k DPS each. Noting here that renegede brings some additional utility to the table as well, although possibly not as much as firebrand does without switching a legend.

 

Honestly, that's sounding like it's coming back to MoP actually being a valid target, since by your numbers it looks to be a relatively minor DPS loss to take. I would note that under organised play conditions, though, we can probably expect Alacrity to be in play, so Mantra of Flame would be closer to a 9s cooldown than 12s, so it would be closer to contributing a little under 800DPS. That's a pretty minor nitpick, though.

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you look at the bench with 5 pages (~37.7K)  dated July 2021 Renewed Focus is not used.

If you go back a year to July 2020, the benchmark for CFB was 33K without allies (37K with allies) so it isn't an insane proposition to cut everything 10%. For the longest time 8 page was only shown on LuckyNoobs so it fell under the radar.
https://web.archive.org/web/20201113181457/https://www.snowcrows.com/benchmarks/
https://web.archive.org/web/20201128130136/https://lucky-noobs.com/benchmarks
https://web.archive.org/web/20200719181941/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

2019 it was 28K solo and 33K with allies but just about every DPS build gained ~2-3K in 2020
https://web.archive.org/web/2019011517K DPS)23541/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Yeah, 10% is not unreasonable if looking at CQB and 8-page CFB, although I'm concerned about assuming that 8-page is the default. I'll admit I haven't tried it myself (my group has been in hiatus for a few months), but I get the impression that it's a "benches higher against golem, not necessarily in real conditions" build. Looking at 5-page, a 10% nerf would bring it to around 33.75k. That's something I'm concerned might be a little too little to get taken.

 

5% would bring 5-page to ~35.5, and 10-page to ~37. Those numbers seem reasonable to me. That would, however, leave CQB at ~30k, which is still a tad higher than the equivalents on other professions. That said, power scrapper at ~34k could do with a buff, so if power scrapper was also buffed by 5%, then PQS would meet CQB in the middle at around 30k, while power scrapper would meet 5-page at ~35.5. That would leave power quickness chrono a little behind, and I'm a little concerned about simply buffing chrono damage to close the difference when pure power DPS chrono is already up there. It'd have to be targeted carefully, although to be honest, personally I'd rather see chrono regaining the ability to go all in on support and offer both quickness and alacrity again, at a suitable DPS loss to account for that role compression.

[Infusion.7149]

@draxynnic.3719
Note that is why I wrote condi RR needs to be cut down to pre torment changes as well ; as it was a torment change related increase in DPS it isn't out of line (see sevenshot and Embrace the Darkness changes after torment changes). Oftentimes the "good at preventing wipes" part also translates into lowman scenarios, where you see renegades and firebrands dominate as well.

Benchmarks don't reflect tome resets nor permeating wrath triggering on every hit when hitting 3 targets as I mentioned earlier, which is more relevant for fractals and raids with added mobs. If only the burning is nerfed from 15% modifier on Amplified Wrath to 10% for example, that only affects 70-80% of the damage since not all damage is burning. It would be nowhere near a 10% nerf but at the very least rein in scenarios where it is incredibly far ahead just due to cleaving. The DPS I mentioned above from utilities doesn't factor in vuln which is another 25% bonus.

I think supporthero's post above illustrates a point that hasn't been discussed which is ashes of the just causes too much variance in damage. A single cast if you have 5 people affected is 5 stacks of burning per second totaling 15 stacks after all 3 triggers happen.

Another large problem with the current iteration of mantra of solace is it basically pushes "Advance" and shield offhand into irrelevance if you have one DPS guardian and one healbrand.

The issue with herald as a support currently is lack of power burst  , slow might stacking (renegade can stack 10 might at a time), and lack of role compression. If you wanted role compression you can use tempest which has 10 man healing and "rebound" (which actually can save a wipe as you like to mention), unlike druid which only heals 5 at a time.

For fractals in particular since scrapper doesn't have much might output and fury output isn't even remotely realistic , firebrand is so far ahead due to exposed. Not to mention a scrapper on med kit does literally 0 DPS so it would only be used as a quickness source in 5 man content unless you are replacing a full on healbrand (as opposed to a hybrid cele or seraph build which can do ~20-24K). I was actually surprised power scrapper was buffed from ~32.5 to 34K to be honest : you have to keep in mind that short of some builds with thief runes the scholar uptime with 5% damage bonus is going to be far higher than builds without passive regeneration to mitigate damage. Scrapper is currently strong when you have a power fight with damage incoming such as on VG / KC (you can function gyro people who down) as well as on Conjured Amalgamate as superspeed helps people to do sword/shield if you aren't yourself. The heal variant is quite good on Matthias and Soulless Horror as mobility and condi clear are useful.
 

[draxynnic.3719]

Tome resets and extra Justice passive procs from cleaves are niche situations.

 

An observation I've made is that these arguments have a tendency to boil down to fractals, and I think part of the problem is that these tend to favour firebrands. The exposed changes were a relative buff to firebrands - IMO, though, that should be addressed by reducing how effective burst conditions are with exposed. Fractals are also more likely than raids or strikes to have adds to trigger traits (and for a number of reasons, people are generally more amenable to switch characters for specific raids and strikes than fractals). I'm concerned, though, that if firebrand gets balanced according to where it performs best, it will end up mediocre everywhere else - including bosses that don't have exposed or adds as significant parts of the fight, and for people who want to use it outside of group content.

 

Generally speaking, as long as it isn't the general consensus that the content is too easy and that everything needs to be nerfed to make things harder (which, considering that top-end PvE is already struggling to maintain a high enough population to justify the dev time it takes to make, seems counterproductive), I'm more in favour of dealing with actual or perceived monopolies by buffing the competition. Power quickness scrapper doesn't hold up to condi quickbrand? Well, maybe it should. 

 

Incidentally, I disagree on MoS making shield and Advance irrelevant. Shield is definitely still useful on support (it's extra aegis, a good burst of protection, and SoA is practically three skills in one), and you'd need to work hard to make Advance something you'd really want to take unless you also wanted the Swiftness. People didn't take guardians for aegis pre-firebrand, at least not in my experience, it's just something that people have come to appreciate if the guardian is going to be there anyway.

 

I also disagree with your analysis of Herald - I don't think faster Might generation would help much as long as it has the current cap on how much it can generate, I don't think power herald lacks burst capability so much as having low damage generally in high-end PvE situations, and the lack of role compression is more that it doesn't really fill a role apart from filling the gaps left by others (which is good for carrying a weaker group who would otherwise have gaps, but if there are no gaps to fill). But that's a separate discussion.