kaesebrezen.3104 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 (edited) TL:DR: The bosses random attack pattern can add anywhere from two to four, five, minutes to the fight. I went through several youtube videos on the Jade Sea meta to get a picture on how significantly the RNG attack pattern can affect the duration of each boss phase (excluding add phases, as they don't have pattern). While we generally lack the exact DPS - P1 and add phase duration usually gives some hint on the groups output. (and some have dps meters) The videos in question feature the following kill times per phase (100 - 80% | 80 - 60% | 60 - 40% | 40 - 20% | 20 - 0%) Video 1: 50s | 60s | 60s | 120s | 80s Video 2: 40s | 120s | 50s | 120s | 130s Video 3: 40s | 130s | 50s | 120s | 130s Video 4: 45s | 150s | 90s | 180s | 180s Video 5: 70s | 110s | 70s | 130s | 250s Video 1 is probably the single most lucky kill on youtube. With a a single tail spawn and just 4 side swaps, all phases last for a very short time. Also noteworthy, in comparison to all other videos, is the very early break bar in p5. Video 2 and 3 feature the highest dps comps (as seen in p1 and p3), yet noteworthy here, in comparison to video 1 are the significantly longer phases 2 and 5. There are two primary causes here: A Tail spawned, and the boss swapped sides several times or decided to do a tail smash when the tail was active. In Video 2 we have 4 tail spawns and 8 side swaps. In Video 3 we have 4 tails and 11 side swaps. Video 4 shows a hideous 3 minute phase 4 for the lovely reason of two tails and 6 side swaps in a single phase. Phase 5 isn't much better, with an additional 7 side swaps. That is more then video 1 got over all phases. Fun additional fact: This group only took 45 in p1 -without- a break bar. Video 5 generally seemed to have lower dps compared to the other teams (but was done when wisp phase could be skipped completely). Phase 5 here though has about the single most aweful attack pattern that can happen in this fight: Side Swap -> Tail -> Side Swap -> Side Swap -> Side Swap -> Tail ->Tidal Wave -> Side Swap -> Side swap -> Front Smash which is close to as minimal of an uptime you can get in this phase. The randomness of the bosses attack pattern have a massive impact on the kill time anywhere from two to four, maybe even five minute. And this timer is completely out of control of the players. This simple is abyssmal game design. Nothing more, and nothing less. The biggest impact is the side swap for several reasons. Not only does i make the boss immune for roughly 10 seconds, it also drops all conditions (edit: due to being away for 10 seconds), and likely several buffs from your group (edit: from you not attacking, but running). The impact one invidivual side swap of the boss has on the kill time is massive, and the mechanic should either be significantly more rare - or imo - just flat out removed. I don't even want to comment further than that... but i seriously question how this even made it past the drawing board. Videos in question: Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOm-BGR1ka0 Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O1YPomQHEw Video 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayZMmz8r17Q Video 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ho8nlftAw Video 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfno6zioNZc&t=858s Edited March 5, 2022 by kaesebrezen.3104 6 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necrosian.1359 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 buT it's cHaLlenGING! PEOPLe Wil learN! /s 6 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranberry.5849 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Yes and the fact that we have to risk spending 2 HOURS to just get a good RNG during boss stage is what really pissing me off 4 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nubilus.9156 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 I knew the RNG aspect was bad before reading your post. But it being THAT BAD as in up to 5!!! whole minutes of combat needed to make up for it just screams bad design. I get they want a "challenging" end-meta but its just so frustrating and gated behind 1,5 hours of prep. Either get rid of the RNG and make it %HP/Time related or get rid of the cleanse and invulnerability. 2 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaWolvesGamer.5790 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 I don't think its a cleanse. I think the animation is literally just that long that the Condi's naturally fall off by the time you can retarget her. Which is just as bad, if not worse. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keramatzmode.1906 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 (edited) How they even thought of delivering this meta for public participation and call it "challenging", baffles me. This one time, I ran with a goated DPS pugs, we CC'd her, and IMMEDIATELY, she does the death circle. We peaced out and get ready to close in, only for her to swap place immediately after, and a tail phase, undoing whatever exposed debuff duration we should have gotten. Did they even run, or heck, even have QA staff for this content? Edited March 5, 2022 by keramatzmode.1906 12 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleckohol.4739 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 I have tried this meta atleast 10 times now, getting anywhere from a solid 30% to just a few % away from completing it. It has mostly been extremely organized pugs with mostly meta builds doing the best they can and falling short. This is my first post ever because I felt the need to be part of this discussion and share just how dreadfully discouraging this has been. I'm absolutely positive that the content is very doable with sweaty guilds working in VC together who already have good synergy and highly organized groups split in to the perfect meta build categories. Sadly, this is not the type of gameplay that is available to the average player, and certainly not what you would expect to find in a map event pug. At this point even if it is nerfed again and again and again until I am finally lucky enough to complete it, I can absolutely promise that when I complete it, it will be the LAST TIME I EVER DO IT AGAIN, EVER. And that is a HUGE shame. It's just an entire map that is absolute garbage for me now, filled with bad memories and unhappiness. The story of the meta is great, the idea of the battle is great, it's visually appealing, and it's an interesting concept for a map meta, but I have been SO annoyed and discouraged by it. I have spent SO much time doing the painfully long pre-events that lead up to it, I have been SO close, screwed by the RNG over and over and over again. I love gw2 and I do really enjoy the new expansion but I am truly disappointed by the prospect of having an entire map that I will never want to visit again after I finally complete the meta on it. 9 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevens.9452 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 5 hours ago, kaesebrezen.3104 said: The randomness of the bosses attack pattern have a massive impact on the kill time anywhere from two to four, maybe even five minute. And this timer is completely out of control of the players. This simple is abyssmal game design. Nothing more, and nothing less. so in theory, we should all be able to do it even with bad rng? we just need to play better? 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrian.7420 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 (edited) Im watching the run that the group I was in did a little bit ago beside Video 1. We're a few percent behind their group on the 100%-80% phase when their group phased it. The difference is they got a break bar 14s into the fight. We didn't get ours until 54s when she had 2% left until phase and after his group had already phased it. The 80%-60% phase they had 5 mechanics which were. Swipe , Tail Slam, Hand slam, Swipe, Tail Slam all of which they could DPS through. Our first 5 were Switch (movement and invuln), Tail (damage reduction), Tsunami, Tsunami Switch(movement and invuln) and it continues like that. 60%-40% phase They get Hand Slam, Poison, Breakbar (20s into it) Swipe We got Swipe, Tail Slam, Tail(damage reduction), Hand Slam, Switch(movement and invuln) ect. After a some more switches and another tail we got a break bar right at the end of the phase 110s into it and we took off the last couple of % of hp. Our splits where we killed the 2-3 bosses were faster but it continues in this pattern for the next couple of phases until we fail in the final phase. Edited March 6, 2022 by Tyrian.7420 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark.2068 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 Having luckiest map and thinking u are a pro or something? xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Roy.2514 Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 On 3/5/2022 at 12:49 PM, kaesebrezen.3104 said: TL:DR: The bosses random attack pattern can add anywhere from two to four, five, minutes to the fight. I went through several youtube videos on the Jade Sea meta to get a picture on how significantly the RNG attack pattern can affect the duration of each boss phase (excluding add phases, as they don't have pattern). While we generally lack the exact DPS - P1 and add phase duration usually gives some hint on the groups output. (and some have dps meters) The videos in question feature the following kill times per phase (100 - 80% | 80 - 60% | 60 - 40% | 40 - 20% | 20 - 0%) Video 1: 50s | 60s | 60s | 120s | 80s Video 2: 40s | 120s | 50s | 120s | 130s Video 3: 40s | 130s | 50s | 120s | 130s Video 4: 45s | 150s | 90s | 180s | 180s Video 5: 70s | 110s | 70s | 130s | 250s Video 1 is probably the single most lucky kill on youtube. With a a single tail spawn and just 4 side swaps, all phases last for a very short time. Also noteworthy, in comparison to all other videos, is the very early break bar in p5. Video 2 and 3 feature the highest dps comps (as seen in p1 and p3), yet noteworthy here, in comparison to video 1 are the significantly longer phases 2 and 5. There are two primary causes here: A Tail spawned, and the boss swapped sides several times or decided to do a tail smash when the tail was active. In Video 2 we have 4 tail spawns and 8 side swaps. In Video 3 we have 4 tails and 11 side swaps. Video 4 shows a hideous 3 minute phase 4 for the lovely reason of two tails and 6 side swaps in a single phase. Phase 5 isn't much better, with an additional 7 side swaps. That is more then video 1 got over all phases. Fun additional fact: This group only took 45 in p1 -without- a break bar. Video 5 generally seemed to have lower dps compared to the other teams (but was done when wisp phase could be skipped completely). Phase 5 here though has about the single most aweful attack pattern that can happen in this fight: Side Swap -> Tail -> Side Swap -> Side Swap -> Side Swap -> Tail ->Tidal Wave -> Side Swap -> Side swap -> Front Smash which is close to as minimal of an uptime you can get in this phase. The randomness of the bosses attack pattern have a massive impact on the kill time anywhere from two to four, maybe even five minute. And this timer is completely out of control of the players. This simple is abyssmal game design. Nothing more, and nothing less. The biggest impact is the side swap for several reasons. Not only does i make the boss immune for roughly 10 seconds, it also drops all conditions (edit: due to being away for 10 seconds), and likely several buffs from your group (edit: from you not attacking, but running). The impact one invidivual side swap of the boss has on the kill time is massive, and the mechanic should either be significantly more rare - or imo - just flat out removed. I don't even want to comment further than that... but i seriously question how this even made it past the drawing board. Videos in question: Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOm-BGR1ka0 Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O1YPomQHEw Video 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayZMmz8r17Q Video 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ho8nlftAw Video 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfno6zioNZc&t=858s Generally agree, been in several groups where throughout multiple phases she will do several back to back side swaps and completely dump on DPS. I feel like the side swap itself (along with the tail phase, has similar pros and cons) is fine, mechanically it makes the fight more interesting than just "stand in this one spot and keep cleaving forever" like the way the Shatterer is. That being said, they HAVE to integrate a pattern to this and make it so that she can't spam it constantly. The fight will still be challenging regardless, but some runs are basically unwinnable by anyone depending on what she does. It's been a similar problem to the chak gerent upon HoT release, which makes me think (especially with the level of feedback) that they'll fix it pretty quick. Just a waiting game now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sila.6748 Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 (edited) I've started recording our own runs. Each time we're doing everything "right" and still falling short because of mechanics. I do'nt have the energy or willpower to sit through them all and count how many skills she does in a period of time, after my 12th failure in a row. But something has to change at this point. We're all running meta builds, we have our group set up split between 3 commander squads and subgroups of 5 with everything right. We have plenty of CC, mechanics are done well, and we're still failing short. Anywhere from 5% or less left. Most of the time with only one single CC phase in the beginning too. Waste of time at the moment. And I'm someone who loves meta events and primarily only does open world content too. (As of time of posting, 4th video is still uploading) Edited March 7, 2022 by Sila.6748 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ailidh.5680 Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 (edited) On 3/5/2022 at 12:35 PM, AlphaWolvesGamer.5790 said: I don't think its a cleanse. I think the animation is literally just that long that the Condi's naturally fall off by the time you can retarget her. Which is just as bad, if not worse. It's definitely a cleanse. My ele has multiple ~20sec burns with my condi build, and they're all gone after she becomes retargetable after 10sec. Many conditions last a lot longer than that with full condition duration. at least if the condi ticked while she was moving, even if they all ran out by the end of the swap, you'd get the full dmg out of your DoTs. Edited March 7, 2022 by amberpai.8531 a word missing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorem.8104 Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 Visual proof too on the fights RNG even with groups that had the dps to do it. Imagine if you wanted to fish in the last zone... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeightTrainer.3219 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 On 3/5/2022 at 12:49 PM, kaesebrezen.3104 said: TL:DR: The bosses random attack pattern can add anywhere from two to four, five, minutes to the fight. I went through several youtube videos on the Jade Sea meta to get a picture on how significantly the RNG attack pattern can affect the duration of each boss phase (excluding add phases, as they don't have pattern). While we generally lack the exact DPS - P1 and add phase duration usually gives some hint on the groups output. (and some have dps meters) The videos in question feature the following kill times per phase (100 - 80% | 80 - 60% | 60 - 40% | 40 - 20% | 20 - 0%) Video 1: 50s | 60s | 60s | 120s | 80s Video 2: 40s | 120s | 50s | 120s | 130s Video 3: 40s | 130s | 50s | 120s | 130s Video 4: 45s | 150s | 90s | 180s | 180s Video 5: 70s | 110s | 70s | 130s | 250s Video 1 is probably the single most lucky kill on youtube. With a a single tail spawn and just 4 side swaps, all phases last for a very short time. Also noteworthy, in comparison to all other videos, is the very early break bar in p5. Video 2 and 3 feature the highest dps comps (as seen in p1 and p3), yet noteworthy here, in comparison to video 1 are the significantly longer phases 2 and 5. There are two primary causes here: A Tail spawned, and the boss swapped sides several times or decided to do a tail smash when the tail was active. In Video 2 we have 4 tail spawns and 8 side swaps. In Video 3 we have 4 tails and 11 side swaps. Video 4 shows a hideous 3 minute phase 4 for the lovely reason of two tails and 6 side swaps in a single phase. Phase 5 isn't much better, with an additional 7 side swaps. That is more then video 1 got over all phases. Fun additional fact: This group only took 45 in p1 -without- a break bar. Video 5 generally seemed to have lower dps compared to the other teams (but was done when wisp phase could be skipped completely). Phase 5 here though has about the single most aweful attack pattern that can happen in this fight: Side Swap -> Tail -> Side Swap -> Side Swap -> Side Swap -> Tail ->Tidal Wave -> Side Swap -> Side swap -> Front Smash which is close to as minimal of an uptime you can get in this phase. The randomness of the bosses attack pattern have a massive impact on the kill time anywhere from two to four, maybe even five minute. And this timer is completely out of control of the players. This simple is abyssmal game design. Nothing more, and nothing less. The biggest impact is the side swap for several reasons. Not only does i make the boss immune for roughly 10 seconds, it also drops all conditions (edit: due to being away for 10 seconds), and likely several buffs from your group (edit: from you not attacking, but running). The impact one invidivual side swap of the boss has on the kill time is massive, and the mechanic should either be significantly more rare - or imo - just flat out removed. I don't even want to comment further than that... but i seriously question how this even made it past the drawing board. Videos in question: Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOm-BGR1ka0 Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O1YPomQHEw Video 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayZMmz8r17Q Video 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ho8nlftAw Video 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfno6zioNZc&t=858s In Video 1 did anyone else notice the arenanet guild tags in squad helping the group complete the meta? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyousa.5609 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Have had two runs fail with good groups now because we get a phase with 3 tails that are timed in the worst way possible. Feels like such an awful way to fail, especially since one of the runs we were in the last phase when we got 3 tails without ever seeing a breakbar and ran out of time at 5% when we went into the last phase with a huuuuuge lead on the timer. I really hope we see some kind of rate limit to the tail, it feels like the single most overwhelming factor in how long each phase takes when you get back to back spawns. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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