Dragon's End Meta Discussion - Possible Solutions to Hot Debate

[jaymin.1785]

Hello all!

 

The goal of this post is to respectfully talk about the Battle for the Jade Sea meta and possible solutions/compromises for the community.

 

First of all, I'd like to thank the developers for putting so much work into producing such an amazing open world boss fight. I personally LOVE the fight and it's intent to make it actually feel  like there are stakes at play while fighting 

Spoiler

an elder dragon.

To be quite frank, all other encounters dealing with that has been a little lackluster, always feeling a little underwhelming for the buildup of how powerful of a presence they hype them up to be. This meta is the epitome of all others and as such, there should be some difficulty otherwise it holds no meaning. 

 

Personal opinion aside, the community has shown a lot of divide over the meta and its difficulty. Again, the intent of this post is to constructively and respectfully discuss solutions to compromise with as many player-bases as possible. 

 

My best proposition would be to have 2 different difficulties for the meta through open world meta and instanced meta: 

 

 ---The open world meta would be nerfed in difficulty by adding more time to the meta before a "fail" (ex: 5 minutes) and providing some rewards even if it fails. Spending 1-2hours in a map on a meta event to get 30 copper feels really bad for everyone involved (aside from drops along the way). 

 

---The instanced meta would function like the Dragonstorm meta where a squad could create a private instance. This instance's difficulty should not be changed to provide the level of difficulty intended and provide that feel of the fight that a lot of players have grown to love. Completing a harder encounter gives more pleasure as more stakes are needed. 

 

This solution would allow Anet to make any possible nerfs "necessary" to allow a larger population to complete the meta (at whatever rate they deem appropriate) while still keeping the original fight as is for those that enjoy the feel/difficulty of it. This solution also helps keep the intent of bridging the gap in difficulty of content throughout the game. The difference between "unfailable" open world metas to other content (strikes, raids, PVP, etc.) is too steep and this meta forces the playerbase to interact the the core game mechanics.

 

Overall, I think we would all agree that the rewards for the meta should reflect the work necessary to complete it and to address this, the open world meta can still have the turtle mount as a reward for the first time, but subsequent rewards could include drops such as an infusion (who knows, there might be one there already), more rewards in general for progress like Drizzlewood Coast, etc. 

 

As for the instanced version, the rewards should reflect the harder difficulty as well and maybe could reward players with legendary components, a turtle skin chance, etc.

 

There is also the inherent issue with the future of this meta as is with the current rewards. After, lets say a month, most people willing to cooperate, join discords, etc. will have completed this meta and not do it as much anymore, meaning the re-playability will suffer. Coupled with the fact that most people unable to complete it now just want to beat it once for the turtle and never do it again which also causes the re-playability to suffer. Separating an open world or "public" meta vs an instanced private squad will help re-playability in the future and allow groups to form whenever they want to, rather than on a specific timetable.

 

Please remember to be respectful and constructive in your discussion. 

 

[castlemanic.3198]

this is essentially what WP said in his video and i agree with it. it doesn't tackle the strike mission issue but that's a different discussion going on.

 

i don't know why they didn't do this initially. they have the technology to do it because they already did it with dragon storm, so why they didn't is beyond me.

 

this would be the perfect solution honestly, the hardcore people get content for them that's separate from the content for casual players and everyone ends up happy. don't see why anyone would disagree with this since it gives everyone what they want.

[Drakth.1875]

2 hours ago, jaymin.1785 said:

Hello all!

 

The goal of this post is to respectfully talk about the Battle for the Jade Sea meta and possible solutions/compromises for the community.

 

First of all, I'd like to thank the developers for putting so much work into producing such an amazing open world boss fight. I personally LOVE the fight and it's intent to make it actually feel  like there are stakes at play while fighting 

  Hide contents

an elder dragon.

To be quite frank, all other encounters dealing with that has been a little lackluster, always feeling a little underwhelming for the buildup of how powerful of a presence they hype them up to be. This meta is the epitome of all others and as such, there should be some difficulty otherwise it holds no meaning. 

 

Personal opinion aside, the community has shown a lot of divide over the meta and its difficulty. Again, the intent of this post is to constructively and respectfully discuss solutions to compromise with as many player-bases as possible. 

 

My best proposition would be to have 2 different difficulties for the meta through open world meta and instanced meta: 

 

 ---The open world meta would be nerfed in difficulty by adding more time to the meta before a "fail" (ex: 5 minutes) and providing some rewards even if it fails. Spending 1-2hours in a map on a meta event to get 30 copper feels really bad for everyone involved (aside from drops along the way). 

 

---The instanced meta would function like the Dragonstorm meta where a squad could create a private instance. This instance's difficulty should not be changed to provide the level of difficulty intended and provide that feel of the fight that a lot of players have grown to love. Completing a harder encounter gives more pleasure as more stakes are needed. 

 

This solution would allow Anet to make any possible nerfs "necessary" to allow a larger population to complete the meta (at whatever rate they deem appropriate) while still keeping the original fight as is for those that enjoy the feel/difficulty of it. This solution also helps keep the intent of bridging the gap in difficulty of content throughout the game. The difference between "unfailable" open world metas to other content (strikes, raids, PVP, etc.) is too steep and this meta forces the playerbase to interact the the core game mechanics.

 

Overall, I think we would all agree that the rewards for the meta should reflect the work necessary to complete it and to address this, the open world meta can still have the turtle mount as a reward for the first time, but subsequent rewards could include drops such as an infusion (who knows, there might be one there already), more rewards in general for progress like Drizzlewood Coast, etc. 

 

As for the instanced version, the rewards should reflect the harder difficulty as well and maybe could reward players with legendary components, a turtle skin chance, etc.

 

There is also the inherent issue with the future of this meta as is with the current rewards. After, lets say a month, most people willing to cooperate, join discords, etc. will have completed this meta and not do it as much anymore, meaning the re-playability will suffer. Coupled with the fact that most people unable to complete it now just want to beat it once for the turtle and never do it again which also causes the re-playability to suffer. Separating an open world or "public" meta vs an instanced private squad will help re-playability in the future and allow groups to form whenever they want to, rather than on a specific timetable.

 

Please remember to be respectful and constructive in your discussion. 

 

IMO the best solution is to remove the turtle from the meta and leave the difficulty as is.

[ugrakarma.9416]

No one asked for "better metas", the metas on game are always full and noboby complained about it. Even incredible older ones like

The most common and older complain about meta is excessive flashy effects. 

older ones like DragonFall always have groups. Now just compare to "hard ones" like marionette, basically rarely niche groups/guilds try organize it.

I wonder where they get this of "50 man raid". the last time see that was on raid subforum.

Just leave it as any "normal" Dragon Meta: DragonFall, DragonStand, DragonStorm.

Remove it as requirment for turtle, leave it as loot map. 

make Turtle like Griffon/Skycale, a scavenger hunt in previous maps.

2 hours ago, jaymin.1785 said:

There is also the inherent issue with the future of this meta as is with the current rewards. After, lets say a month, most people willing to cooperate, join discords, etc. will have completed this meta and not do it as much anymore, meaning the re-playability will suffer. Coupled with the fact that most people unable to complete it now just want to beat it once for the turtle and never do it again which also causes the re-playability to suffer. Separating an open world or "public" meta vs an instanced private squad will help re-playability in the future and allow groups to form whenever they want to, rather than on a specific timetable.

 

Please remember to be respectful and constructive in your discussion. 

 

They will sell kill runs for gold. I play on NA, i can count on fingers groups that made 50 man content over-organized. is basically TTS group for Triple-Trouble, or the guild that love kill chack gerent(i forget which name).

Edited March 8, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[nutri.1385]

16 hours ago, Drakth.1875 said:

IMO the best solution is to remove the turtle from the meta and leave the difficulty as is.

 

The turtle is not the only reason for doing this meta. I completed it on first run (pure luck, I got into a raid squad and we had a few seconds left on the timer), but I want to access the successful map again for achievements and since this first good run I haven't been able to do it since. 😐

[Murelax.6398]

DE Meta probably will be Nerfed soon , or the mount will be just rewarded somewhere else.

May be some side collection or achievements.

If people cant get the mount ,who will BUY the upcoming turtle skins ? 

 

[Creo.7135]

I'm completely good with this, but my issue is that this meta is tied with the turtle mount.
You put a casual reward within a huge over tuned meta.. Hate it lol

If you want to make a hard mode for it, please do.. at least at that point we can do it with an organized  group instead of relaying on players who is more casual, but as it stands you're mixing the two types of players.  Which only causes anger and frustration.

Though making another map with the harder difficulty isn't great either being that you will have the same issue.. I would reduce the scale and make it a strike mission, or even a 30/40 man strike mission.

Also the rewards are pretty lack luster for such an over tuned event.. I'm on 15 attempts with all fails.. Friend of mine did it twice (some how) and the second time around was hardly worth the trouble.

[Peterson.5172]

22 hours ago, nutri.1385 said:

 

The turtle is not the only reason for doing this meta. I completed it on first run (pure luck, I got into a raid squad and we had a few seconds left on the timer), but I want to access the successful map again for achievements and since this first good run I haven't been able to do it since. 😐

not worth the effort unless you've gotten every other achievement really...

[Shadows Creed.3902]

If they make the green phase like teq cannons and rhe overall timer stops I think if solves the issue

[Katastroff.1045]

The meta is the ultimate ending of the dragon story line and I don't mind if its hard. Eventually, more more people will learn the fight and will get their turtle. my problem is with this:
https://ibb.co/wd84bP9

Now once enough people will have acquire their mount/done the achieve in the map, what will bring back players in Dragon's end?

[Dabuddah.4298]

33 minutes ago, Creo.7135 said:

I'm completely good with this, but my issue is that this meta is tied with the turtle mount.
You put a casual reward within a huge over tuned meta.. Hate it lol

 

On 3/7/2022 at 6:08 PM, Drakth.1875 said:

IMO the best solution is to remove the turtle from the meta and leave the difficulty as is.

My general issue for "removing Turtle from meta" is that I think they're trying to incentivize a "git gud" mentality with the meta, case and point is how they're doing minor tweaks and not focusing on big adjustments to the overall meta (Decreasing timers, focusing mainly on bug fixes, etc) and how you have to do an actual Strike Mission to get the turtle during the final collection.

I would say the best workaround to this is letting players have their cake and eat it, too. So you can have the meta rewarded Turtles also give a title because it would be much more difficult to do that, I think, than get the turtle and that way you can validate the people who have gotten it through the meta-- and also allow that to still be an avenue to obtain the turtle for those who WANT whatever the title is. Maybe like "Turtle Lord" and "Turtle Lady" or something to that affect. Just keep the meta as a way to get it.

I think the alternative route should just be "Do all the Strike Missions once" to get an egg. This still keeps a rather "git gud" mentality with getting the turtle while also giving players a much more solid amount of control over their groups. For example, it's easier to get that coordinated 10 people from your guild rather than the 60 or so for the map meta. So you can't have one really good player get kitten by the map just being bad.

That's my opinion being thrown into the ring.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Dabuddah.4298
Spacing

[Oerv.5742]

- Warning: Long comment ahead! -

 

I think, overall the event itself is quite fine. Even though all my runs have failed so far, I enjoy all the mechanics behind it. I don't even mind the fact, that the turtle is locked behind it. It makes for a great goal to work towards.

 

That said, I think there are some issues with the meta. And I don't mean to repeat the bazillion posts that have already talked about that.  Currently the forums show mostly two subgroups of players: The "git gut" brigade and the "too hard - nerf" crowd. The rest (which probably makes up the majority of players) is probably in the game right now and would like some adjustments but isn't in either of those two extreme camps. 

 

A big issues with "git gud" is this: What does it even mean to "git gud"? That every player should turn up geared in raid gear, knowing the ins and outs of their classes? 

 

This is unrealistic. I just had a DE map instance I left, because the commander kept insulting the squad members, telling them, they were "slackers" for not switching to qfb and alacrigade. He reckoned, because they had 10000+ AP, they surely had the gear and the experience with that roles, which is simply wrong. Most people turning up for the meta, spend the majority of their time in the open world. The OW has different gear requirements and is much less punishing than instanced content. Why should someone that never does CM fractals or raids spend hundreds of gold for a complete set of support equip when he probably never needs to play a supporting role during most of his playtime?

 

To me, "getting good" in the game means understanding the win conditions of a certain encounter. For raids, CM fractals and other "harder" instanced content, these win conditions are as far as I (as a non-raider) understand it:

1. understanding the most effective way you and your class can be useful for the group
2. gearing appropriately
3. learning the encounter, its mechanics and the difficulties that can arise during a fight (for both, you and your teammates)

For "challenging" open world content on the other hand (I'm talking metas like DS or Drakkar here), the win conditions so far looked more like this:

1. Turn up
2. understand the mechanics of the encounter, the role of your positioning and the timing (e.g. Tarir, Teq, Drakkar, DS etc.)
3. try not to die and make sure to get at least some damage in

This game already has some metas that are actually engaging and require the player to know what they are doing. Yes, they are not  very punishing, but if the whole squad is doing pretty much nothing or everything wrong, they are still failable. If a few players are dead weight its not to the detriment to the rest, who can carry the whole thing.

 

Now, with DE, I actually see a lot of players doing the mechanics correctly. And I also see improvements among the groups with each try. People are learning the encounter, they are dodging attacks (or at least try to), they are going for the tail, are covering behind the crystals before the tsunami during green phase, they are killing the mini bosses simultaneously. Even the breakbars (if one came  up), were pretty much melting in a few seconds each of my tries. Most of my tries had groups doing all of that and yet they still failed.

 

Why? It's simple. Because the damage output was simply too low in the short frames were the boss was vulnerable. 

 

A successful open world encounter should not rely on people bringing each and every boon under the horizon permanently for each and every other player. It should not require the casual player to min-max their DPS, when they were never forced to do so in the past. 

 

It can rely on mechanics. It's okay if there is even a certain (healthy!) amount of RNG involved for some movement variety. (Sidenote: I think they did a pretty good job with telegraphing the attacks and the sound cues provided by the NPCs.) Heck, it's okay, if the success rate is at about only 40% and not 100% or 3% like it seems to be right now.

 

So my solution would be to simply nerf the health a little. Not too much.. A boss shouldn't be brought down by auto-attacks only as is the case with world bosses. But enough that an organized and min-maxed squad with perma alacrity and quickness is not required. Enough that an average OW build is enough to enjoy the fight and its awesome mechanics.

 

A raid-level squad should be able to complete the fight in about 7 to 10 mins. An average PUG squad should be able to clear it in the given time about a third of each tries MINIMUM.  If that was the case; I'd consider the meta balanced and successful.

 

A meta should not be able to divide a community like this one, that was always heralded for its friendlyness and openness. It is sad to see, that this meta apparently was. 

 

EDIT: clarification in one sentence

Edited March 9, 2022 by Oerv.5742