About the Pale Tree and the Sylvari (EoD Spoilers)

[Nayukhuut.4269]

After I finished the story I went back the the Grove to talk the Pale Tree. I was kinda hoping she would weigh in. After finishing the story in FF14 a lot of old pertinent NPCs were given new dialogue to reflect events, and I know Anet sometimes does the same. It was worth a shot. I saw nothing new though, which made me kinda sad. I was kinda hoping she would shed light on some things I had been wondering about during and after the story.

Okay, so I might as well just get into it. The Pale Tree and the Sylvari are dragon minions. Pale Tree, while purified, was created by Mordremoth to originally just be another Blighting Tree. That the Sylvari have free thought, individuality, and free will, are all because the Pale Tree in her purified form wanted to make life, not servants. She protected them from any dragon influence in the Dream, and while the race share a sort of empathic psychic bond with each other, they all all very much their own people. It still remains though that both the Sylvari and the Pale Tree exist because we are Mordremoth's creation of a sort. With that in mind, I have the following questions.

What becomes of them now that we know of the existence of the Void? Technically these two are the last vestiges of active Dragon Magic in Tyria save for Aurene herself. Did the Pale Tree being purified cut them off from that completely? In HoT it was shown that Mordemoth did still have influence over her and her children, although it was much slighter due to their altered state. Does the Pale Tree absorb magic like the other dragon champions had? If she does, is the process difference enough due to the changes in her, or will the Void become a problem for her and her children eventually too?

Also, not related to the question but just a thought I had... I felt so bad for Soo-Won after the meta. She was lamenting losing her children, and I just wanted to give her a hug and tell her that while they may be gone, her legacy still lives on in Aurene, the Pale Tree, and Sylvari. Heh, and I find it amusing that if Mordemoth was a sort of pseudo grandfather to the Sylvari, in a sense Soo-Won is basically our great grandmother.. :P

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Nayukhuut.4269 said:

What becomes of them now that we know of the existence of the Void?

Should just be nothing.

Granted that I've not delved into all EoD lore so I may be wrong here, but my understanding of the Void is that it isn't the corruption directly. It's just all magic combined into one. A non-malicious constant that breaks down and combines all things. From the perspective of the world, it's "chaotic" and "into nothing" because it breaks apart the rules of the world, but it's the exact opposite - it's perfect order and everything. Similar to the Mists' protomatter, it is the original state of what became the world.

The issue is that Soo-Won couldn't hold the Void from returning to its natural state on her own so she created the other Elder Dragons and split the burden. By doing this with beings who couldn't withstand the burden over 30,000+ years (we don't know how long ago Soo-Won created the Elder Dragons, afaik, but jotun records mention "multiple" world ending dragonrises prior to the previous one that caused their civilization's fall, indicating at least 2 before, or 20,000 years before the one 10,000 years ago), the Elder Dragons became corrupted by mixing magic beyond their domain (consuming the ley-lines, etc.), and their own personalities and actions influenced the Void to give birth to the Dragonvoid, the warped personality made of Void, once all six forms of magic joined together in Soo-Won.

What this is to say is that since the Pale Tree was cleansed and she and sylvari do not mix domains of magic beyond their ability, they should be unaffected by the Void even if they're using dragon magic alongside Aurene, the unchained, remnant destroyers, and remaining mordrem.

 

Additionally, there is no indication of change to the Unchained in Old Kaineng after the events of The Only One, so it would seem that old dragon minions - especially those largely of one domain - are unaffected by the Void and Dragonvoid.

This does raise the question about Subject Alpha and Kuda's continued experiments in that vein, though. In every path of CoE, one of Alpha's Essences survive (goes invulnerable and escapes), so Subject Alpha is technically still alive out there somewhere. And it was made using magic from five different dragon magics. One step away from reforming the Void.

11 hours ago, Nayukhuut.4269 said:

In HoT it was shown that Mordemoth did still have influence over her and her children, although it was much slighter due to their altered state.

Hmm, yes and no here.

By all indication, Mordremoth did not have proper "dragon minion" influence. Dragon corruption is indomitable. You cannot fight it, as said and shown time and time throughout GW2 - in Sea of Sorrows novel, core story, and Dragonfall ambient dialogue among Mist Wardens in particular. Braham is a unique situation because of the Spirits of the Wild, but other than that? Once corrupted, you're a slave with no will of your own. Sylvari were capable of fighting back, and Mordrem Guard could even potentially revert just by distancing themsleves from Mordremoth's Whispers as seen in the Rata Novus instance.

This means that what Mordremoth did was more akin to Jormag's 'persuasion' we see in IBS, but a bit more brute forceful given the descriptions by Canach and others. He didn't corrupt them or have proper influence. He just whispered in their minds until they gave in and followed his commands.

Were more non-sylvari than just the White Stag connected to the Dream, he'd be doing the same to non-sylvari too, I imagine.

11 hours ago, Nayukhuut.4269 said:

I find it amusing that if Mordemoth was a sort of pseudo grandfather to the Sylvari, in a sense Soo-Won is basically our great grandmother.. 😛

IIRC, there is one moment where the sylvari PC does call Mordremoth their grandfather. So yeah, Soo-Won is the sylvari PC's great-grandmother.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

It's kinda wierd to think that Caithe and Aurene are technically related. 

Plus Caithe being Aurenes Step Mom (somewhat). 

 

 

[Desh.7028]

8 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

It's kinda wierd to think that Caithe and Aurene are technically related. 

Plus Caithe being Aurenes Step Mom (somewhat). 

 

There are aunts or even older siblings raising children IRL. It's not that weird in the case of absentee or dead parents.

One might actually figure out how they are related:

Mordremoth and Kralkatorik are brothers. Caithe and Aurene are their respective grand children.

Which makes them cousins once removed afaik.

So it's an older cousin playing mom for her baby niece. Unlike the player character Sylvari who's in canon 9 years old, Caithe is actually in her 30s.

 

On 3/17/2022 at 7:54 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Braham is a unique situation because of the Spirits of the Wild, but other than that?

 

That or pure world building. The spirits were actually not with him at that point but busy with Primordus.

 

On 3/17/2022 at 7:54 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

a bit more brute forceful given the descriptions by Canach and others

 

Sylvari characters experience some of the HoT story differently and distance is a big factor when it comes to Mordremoth's influence. To the dragon it was about eroding resistance not persuading the Sylvari to join the hivemind.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Desh.7028 said:

That or pure world building. The spirits were actually not with him at that point but busy with Primordus.

They were not physically with Braham, but it was made abundantly clear in Champions: Power that the Spirits of the Wild held a connection to Braham which is what allowed Braham to both retain his individuality at first, as well as what gave the Spirits a chance at controlling Primordus when Braham was corrupted.

And at the end when asked why Braham was okay, the only posited possibility was the Spirits protecting him, though that remains unclear.

2 hours ago, Desh.7028 said:

Sylvari characters experience some of the HoT story differently and distance is a big factor when it comes to Mordremoth's influence. To the dragon it was about eroding resistance not persuading the Sylvari to join the hivemind.

The PC experience is very limited, however, compared to what NPCs like Canach, Occam, Aerin, Caithe, and Scarlet talk about.

Based on all their - and other sylvari - descriptions of Mordremoth's mind manipulations, he had three stages of "convincing":

1. First he'd slip whispers in their mind that was designed to heard like their own, or their own Wyld Hunts. This is very similar to Jormag's method in Bjora Marches.

2. When that didn't work, he'd resort to direct telepathy, "casual" discussion in their minds telling them their origins and what they should do. Jormag did this a bit to the Commander (and, seemingly, only the Commander and Bangar?). This is what the players get to hear throughout HoT.

3. Then, especially when closer to him, his telepathy is a booming voice that attempts to drown out all other thought to force the sylvari into submission. Though we don't get to hear the "booming voice" part, in Bitter Harvest, sylvari PCs do have a moment where they get overhwhelmed by the pressure of Mordremoth's voice.

 

Some examples of sylvari describing these things:

<Character name>: It's Mordremoth. The dragon's influence turns some sylvari bad.

Occam: That explains the terrible voice I hear and the strange thoughts I've been having. But I know who I am, and I swear to you—I am not some Mordrem thrall.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prisoners_of_the_Dragon

Caithe: I can't take back what happened, but I can tell you I know what I did was wrong and I'm sorry.

Caithe: My Wyld Hunt, Mordremoth's voice...they were tearing at each other and sometimes I didn't know which was which.

Caithe: I was very confused, and I felt like the only person I could trust was me.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Shadow's_Deeds#In_the_instance

Canach: I noted that as well. Mordremoth's voice was growing to a great bellow as we drew closer.

Canach: Here, it's a whisper. It's a welcome respite.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Buried_Insight

 

There's many, many more of course. But it shows how Mordremoth's actions changed from subtle manipulation to brute force oppressiveness.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

I'll have to post my dragon minions thing later, as it relates to why Braham is alive still lol.