How do ANet address Elementalist identity issues going forward?

[Psytharsis.9087]

Hi all. I've been pondering this question for a while now while I've been lurking in the forum's reading all the reactions toward the new expac and the catalyst. While I am enjoying the catalyst and hammer, I agree with a lot of the posts that suggest the Elementalist has an identity issue - especially with this spec.

 

Looking at the other specs, they seem to be in line with what is expected of a new elite spec (an alternative way to play the core mechanics of the class). For example, mesmer got their clones taken away and replaced, ranger have an interaction skill between their pet and themselves that changes all weapon skills depending on the current target of the mechanic, revenants get a new dodge and a duel legend that performs differently depending on which is invoked. 

 

It doesn't seem the Elementalist got the same treatment this time around, which may be understandable given that weaver was a lot of work, needing to add way more extra skills than any other profession. But our core mechanic never changed, we got an extra feature and a new weapon; without playing catalyst with a hammer, the spec does not feel 'elite' rather an addition to the regular trait lines that adds an extra functionality to the class.

 

Whereas other classes and the Elementalist's previous specs got changes to their core mechanics, Ele's didn't, which obviously contributes to the identity crisis when using this spec with other weapons, and also poses the problem of balancing when trying to give specs a trade-off so playing core is still a viable option, when catalyst just feels like a direct upgrade as little has changed.

 

This isn't a complaint post; designing new specs is likely hard to do, especially when the class inherently has more weapon skills than any other profession. But what can ANet do going forward to solve this for Ele's, without forcing them to add new skills to each weapon like the weaver, to avoid extra work and to prevent it being too similar to the weaver? I want to encourage discussion about the future specs for ele and how they can maintain their identity while providing a substantially alternative way to play.

 

Options I've been thinking of is the ability to attune to 1 or 2 attunements only outside of combat (similar to how weapon swap works for Ele's now) and give us the ability to swap weapons in combat. Another alternative i was thinking was perhaps an avatar system where the ele builds up elemental energy during combat which can then be used to turn into an avatar of that element (similar to necro shroud) with unique skills.

 

It's difficult to come up with ideas though that don't start to share identity with other classes (necro shroud) or give Ele's a unique identity in the spec without adding a shed load of new skills; the avatar idea would face a similar issue to catalyst; without whatever new weapon that gets added, it would just be core, with an extra feature. An obvious option would be to add a new element (void?), but that would give the ele even more of a skillset compared to other classes. Okay, so we allow the ele to swap elements outside of combat similar the the weapon swap idea, but then are we delving into other classes too much (rev legend swapping).

 

This is the problem I'm curious about and wondered what everyone else thinks going forward?

 

As a side note, I would personally like to see new specs less focused on elements (ironic given the topic of this post) and more on the arcane side of things; necros are getting elixirs, rangers got spell casting with less focus on pets with druid; can't Ele's get a new quirky spec without disrupting identity too much, other spell schools that can be enhanced with the elemental mechanic?

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Psytharsis.9087
Typo

[draxynnic.3719]

I wouldn't worry too much about cribbing ideas from other professions. There's a lot of that already going around, and I don't see why an elementalist take on, say, a shroud mechanic would be any less distinct than a thief take (and, arguably, ranger and engineer takes). Heck, Unleashed could be seen as a ranger take on attunements, except that it only fully switches skills with a specific weapon.

So I don't see why 'avatar mode' would be off the table. Would probably be a more efficient way to introduce a fifth element without requiring every core weapon to have a fifth set of skills.

Elementalist is a bit limited in that there's only space for one more function key unless it also loses an attunement or two - but it could use the tempest approach if the new ability was linked to the attunement, and if you ask me it could be really interesting to see an elementalist equivalent to some of the existing single-button mechanics.

[Psytharsis.9087]

I think you're right, and I don't think there are too many options left for Ele specs that don't somewhat resemble another class or spec. 

I feel that going forward they will start to design Ele specs similar to the tempest or by reducing the mechanics like you say. I don't think Ele's will get a weapon swap but I do think new element(s) will be introduced, possibly void as a kind of 'ultimate' element like you say. It's tough though; I do hope they manage to bring some of the identity back in the next spec. Like I said, I am enjoying the Catalyst but I have no motivation to play it with other weapons right now. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Psytharsis.9087

[Downstate.4697]

Anet needs to worry less about class identity and focus on making the elite feel different. They shot themselves in the foot not giving earth jade sphere a smike field. That alone would of made it interesting.

[lLobo.7960]

The thing is Ele is very versatile (in terms of defense, condi dmg, power dmg, heal) due to the 4 attunements and 4 elemental traitlines.

If elite specs just focus on one aspect (this is the power dmg spec, that is the condi spec, etc) it just becomes "mandatory" instead of a different way to play it. We usually have this problem when specs are new and overtuned (why play power dps-weaver or core-dps-staff if catalyst does so much more dmg?).

IMO, Ele elites need to be kept versatile, and just change the way you do things.

Tempest focus on larger AoE (shouts, overloads) and staying longer in attunements to overload them. 

Weaver focus on fast constant rotations to maintain buffs, boons, barrier, and using dual elemental skills.

Catalyst focus on combos, using the sphere to provide extra fields, with each combo improving the catalyst through unique buffs (elemental empower, auras, boons/heals from blasts).

For example: If you want to focus on condi dmg, particularly burn, you can play fire/arcane/tempest, camp fire attunement (swapping only for utility/heal/defense) and use scepter/warhorn along with overloads to build a lot of might and lots of burns in an area around you. Or you can play fire/arcane/weaver and focus on swapping attunements constantly ("weaving fire with the other 3) to maintain condi dmg buffs and maximize sunspot while using all fire dual skills to maximize burn application.

I've suggested a new elite spec concept based on loosing elemental skills while gaining in combat weapon swap, making a mobile martial artist fighter that uses elements to imbue its attacks. The Disciple 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by lLobo.7960

[Psytharsis.9087]

34 minutes ago, lLobo.7960 said:

The thing is Ele is very versatile (in terms of defense, condi dmg, power dmg, heal) due to the 4 attunements and 4 elemental traitlines.

If elite specs just focus on one aspect (this is the power dmg spec, that is the condi spec, etc) it just becomes "mandatory" instead of a different way to play it. We usually have this problem when specs are new and overtuned (why play power dps-weaver or core-dps-staff if catalyst does so much more dmg?).

IMO, Ele elites need to be kept versatile, and just change the way you do things.

Tempest focus on larger AoE (shouts, overloads) and staying longer in attunements to overload them. 

Weaver focus on fast constant rotations to maintain buffs, boons, barrier, and using dual elemental skills.

Catalyst focus on combos, using the sphere to provide extra fields, with each combo improving the catalyst through unique buffs (elemental empower, auras, boons/heals from blasts).

For example: If you want to focus on condi dmg, particularly burn, you can play fire/arcane/tempest, camp fire attunement (swapping only for utility/heal/defense) and use scepter/warhorn along with overloads to build a lot of might and lots of burns in an area around you. Or you can play fire/arcane/weaver and focus on swapping attunements constantly ("weaving fire with the other 3) to maintain condi dmg buffs and maximize sunspot while using all fire dual skills to maximize burn application.

I've suggested a new elite spec concept based on loosing elemental skills while gaining in combat weapon swap, making a mobile martial artist fighter that uses elements to imbue its attacks. The Disciple 

 

That's true, and part of the reason I main an ele. I agree with everything you've said, I just hope that the playstyle introduced by the specs make gameplay different enough with multiple weapons to make it distinct from core & fun to play. Weaver and tempest were great for me personally, as tempest gave me a more support role to play in the group, which I have always historically been in MMO's, and weaver was frantic piano play which I also loved. Catalyst is fun in its own right, but It fell off a lot when trying it with core weapons, for me at least.

That spec you proposed seems super interesting though, I'd love to see ele get an actual weapon swap at some point, and i'd be interested to see how they do it (if they do)

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Psytharsis.9087

[Ruisen.9471]

22 hours ago, Psytharsis.9087 said:

I think you're right, and I don't think there are too many options left for Ele specs that don't somewhat resemble another class or spec. 

I feel that going forward they will start to design Ele specs similar to the tempest or by reducing the mechanics like you say. I don't think Ele's will get a weapon swap but I do think new element(s) will be introduced, possibly void as a kind of 'ultimate' element like you say. It's tough though; I do hope they manage to bring some of the identity back in the next spec. Like I said, I am enjoying the Catalyst but I have no motivation to play it with other weapons right now. 

I remember in core story, there was a story mission where you had a special action key which turned you into a fire god or something, and you had 5 new skills to throw big fire AoE nukes everywhere.

That was so much fun, I wish we got something like that as an elite spec, as a pyromancer.

 

I don't see why an elite "specialization" can't be a specialization of an existing trait.

[Psytharsis.9087]

15 hours ago, Ruisen.9471 said:

I remember in core story, there was a story mission where you had a special action key which turned you into a fire god or something, and you had 5 new skills to throw big fire AoE nukes everywhere.

That was so much fun, I wish we got something like that as an elite spec, as a pyromancer.

 

I don't see why an elite "specialization" can't be a specialization of an existing trait.

I remember that too, it was very satisfying to play, and would like to see something like that in the future maybe. I also hope that ANet stop shying away from giving Ele more utility; I understand that Ele's are the jack-of-all-trades class, but it's a shame to not have access to things other classes do because of this (I distinctly remember in one of the spec showcases that a dev said they thought about a smoke cloud for earth sphere but where quickly like 'No way, we can't give ele invisibility too' or something like that). I understand why perhaps with balancing but I'd rather them give us more options and nerf others in new specs rather than be stuck with the same old tools. Catalyst gave us quickness and some others we haven't been able to offer which is a step in the right direction, I just hope it continues; you'd think "spellcasters that command primal forces" would have more than a few tricks up their sleeve 😛 

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

Well Elementalist main theme was dmg and buffs. I'm not sure in which direction it now goes.

With Tempest they did cover in it prime both . Weaver when it came out was so long it used staff a bit like this :

But after several nerfs only the down sides remained. After initially not liking  going from Tempest to Weaver. I loved to play my Weaver . Yeah I know condi is in theory still best but this has similar issues like Catalyst and a very long ramp up time for weave-self.

 

It is not very fun.(by the way I don't play this game in the video).

The reason is more like maybe some devs come around and remembers what Ele was and why it was this way.

Oh I checked played my Ele over 7k and my AC is near the 10k h..

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Lord of the Fire.6870

[Puck.3697]

Imho, elementalists defining feature is how hybridized they are naturally. Every weapon set providing healing, Condi, power and defense realistically means Its hybridized permantly. 

I think this conflicts with designs that try to push it into a single role (i.e weaver as a pure DPS). It feels weird to see a build which by nature is 50% condi 50% power using berserker sets. 

I feel like grieving and stats like celestial is kinda what elementalists should be using, but they're shoehorned into berserker and viper builds. 

My favourite eras of ele is D/D cele ele and hybrid weaver. 

Because these builds made every ability feel effective instead of ignoring large amounts of its buttons due to this strict devide. 

[Ruisen.9471]

Now that druids aren't dominant, Tempest could see play as a heal support.    Tempest could also be made into a boon support DPS that gives out one of the important boons needed in raids.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Ruisen.9471