Don't Nerf, Just buff

[Carnifex.3275]

Yup.. i always said that it's time to stop nerfing and time to balance out classes by lifting it. You can always just keep toning down and toning down. But that's terrible in the long run, classes become less fun. So instead you can just tone up other classes to reach equal balance. And if it becomes too powercreeped just tone down the damage overall (like they did in the past). But stop messing with traits/skills. People buy expansions to play specific class. And by the end of the expansion you can barely recognize your class..

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

First of all, at least 2 meta builds per profession actually sounds pretty dope. We haven't had anything remotely close to that in 2 years because nerfing and removing build options is objectively detrimental to build diversity. 

Really, the entire concept of 'balance' is the antithesis to build diversity and creativity itself because 'balancing' entails making everything more 'fair' and samey.

We haven't? I'm pretty sure the last 2 years till Gold 3(80%+ of the playerbase) you saw 2 specs of most professions(rip warriors/ele) pretty regularly. That stops in plat and Amt not because there are no viable meta builds, but because at that level people go for the absolute best. In the last 2 years you could play basically everything below plat. The only thing stopping you right now are OP Willbender and harbringer outpowering everything else not your own class weakness.

 

Even with your changes that are reasonable and fair I don't see thief on the same power level as willbender. But I do taste the silver tears when venom gets back to 6 stacks^^.
I Struggle to think why nerfing willbender and harbringer is a bad idea.  I never thought my profession is to weak. It is mostly some outliers being absurd and people flocking to them. I have all the tools i need, willbender is just broken. I of course would like to be even faster(thank you for less imitative cost arrow change) but that would just me being selfish and not because it is needed or balanced.

That said: Some things needs to be looked at. Mainly stuff that got nerfed thanks to the willbenders of the past and didn't get reverted when the actual problem got taken care of. the ugly 300 cds have to go too.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

We haven't? I'm pretty sure the last 2 years till Gold 3(80%+ of the playerbase) you saw 2 specs of most professions(rip warriors/ele) pretty regularly. That stops in plat and Amt not because there are no viable meta builds, but because at that level people go for the absolute best. In the last 2 years you could play basically everything below plat. The only thing stopping you right now are OP Willbender and harbringer outpowering everything else not your own class weakness.

 

Even with your changes that are reasonable and fair I don't see thief on the same power level as willbender. But I do taste the silver tears when venom gets back to 6 stacks^^.
I Struggle to think why nerfing willbender and harbringer is a bad idea.  I never thought my profession is to weak. It is mostly some outliers being absurd and people flocking to them. I have all the tools i need, willbender is just broken. I of course would like to be even faster(thank you for less imitative cost arrow change) but that would just me being selfish and not because it is needed or balanced.

That said: Some things needs to be looked at. Mainly stuff that got nerfed thanks to the willbenders of the past and didn't get reverted when the actual problem got taken care of. the ugly 300 cds have to go too.

What Anet needs to do is spend more time overhauling things not just doing bandaid fix nerf gutting it leaving a trail of dead specs and dead elites.

[ladybug.3641]

The most enjoyable patch is always when they have changed a leg trait line completely to a different direction that has always changed the meta and always felt like an expansion. 

If they looked at things like dru Erker war fb. And completely changed them to a solid role play in pvp it was be very exciting 

[Axl.8924]

You know that saying what goes around comes around? well its true say your a thief main and thief got nerfed so he wishes everyone to get nerfed well sooner or later the nerf will be his turn again and he will get to enjoy his class feeling  like trash and wrecked and in the end everyone loses, which is better to have attention to detail on fixing the problems.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

 First, I appreciate you being cool, calm, and collected. Props 👍

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

We haven't? I'm pretty sure the last 2 years till Gold 3(80%+ of the playerbase) you saw 2 specs of most professions(rip warriors/ele) pretty regularly. That stops in plat and Amt not because there are no viable meta builds, but because at that level people go for the absolute best. In the last 2 years you could play basically everything below plat. The only thing stopping you right now are OP Willbender and harbringer outpowering everything else not your own class weakness.

Just to clarify when I said meta builds for every profession that would mean meta builds for every profession.

To really be a meta build, it can't only perform well at the lower skill levels. It has to do well in all of them.

If these past 2 years had been the utopia we're both hoping for, then we wouldn't be saying things like "rip ele/warrior" 

 

Has there been times where every class has had a meta build? Yes actually.

Before the first lesser nerf incursion in Summer of 2017, all 9 professions had at least 1 meta build. I actually managed to dig up an ancient screenshot of the metabattle page from then to show, but mind you this was very hard to dig up on some random youtube video. As a result, support tempest and greataxe zerker are cropped out so I am unable to prove that those 2 professions were in the meta, but you can take my word as a warrior main that warrior was actually fun to play back then and was pretty good especially when compared to now.

https://prnt.sc/V-IlKcQ9m6zj | Screenshot

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Even with your changes that are reasonable and fair I don't see thief on the same power level as willbender. But I do taste the silver tears when venom gets back to 6 stacks^^.
I Struggle to think why nerfing willbender and harbringer is a bad idea. 

I'm glad you liked them, but really all I did there was look at the wiki for changes to thief/DD in the past 2 years and undid a small handful of crippling nerfs they got in that time.

It felt good, didn't it? Simply undoing those silly, silly nerfs makes the game and at least 1 profession therein sound more appealing.

 

That should be pretty telling, no? Going back to the aforementioned meta utopia, it was nerfs that killed that off. Not buffs, not new elite specs(because there were none yet) but it was nerfs. 

These nerfs

 

Like I said, its a slippery slope to go down. Nerfs not only feel bad, but are sometimes the root cause of imbalances themselves.

That could very well be the case for willis and harb. They could just be the best of the worst after all the nerfs everyone has endured since the nerf father's arrival.

I fought a couple willisisies and at least 1 harbs in a video I made over at 

and idk they didn't seem as violent as everyone makes them out to be. I had to speed the fights up by 125% because they were taking too long.

The thought of this being possible and effective scares me more than buffs, being honest.

[SlayerXX.7138]

7 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

What Anet needs to do is spend more time<...>

On PvP in general. But they don't. So stuff like reworking whole trait lines while nice probably wont happen ever again. Maybe if the PvP base gets a boost with steam?

 

5 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

To really be a meta build, it can't only perform well at the lower skill levels. It has to do well in all of them.

Way to diss 80+% of the player base. Little reminder for you and people on the PvP forums in general. GW 2 PvP is hard. Gold is a high level of skill. Just because you and other veteran player do make them look like literal children doesn't mean a gold 3 player isn't good. Stuff needs to be balanced around high tier but designed around the average. If the game gets designed and buffed around what the top 250 player can do, the game mode just gonna die(quicker). Starting at plat you need reflexes, multitasking and finger dexterity on a level some people just don't have or wouldn't get even with training.

 

5 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

It felt good, didn't it? Simply undoing those silly, silly nerfs makes the game and at least 1 profession therein sound more appealing.

Not really. Thief is in a good spot IMO. That are things that would be nice to have but not needed. If thief ever gets underpowered that would be changes to start on. Maybe give me 4 venom stack right now but otherwise thief is fine. So are most Professions in one spec at least. They are not weak. Good warri reks me any day of the week. But so does an average willbender while also being fast and more effective in team fights. These professions are not weak they are just outclassed by stronger, more versatile options. Obviously some profession need minor buffs. But the biggest problem right now is Willbender and harbringer invalidating all other options. Even if i would be in favor for general buffs across the board i wouldn't trust the gw 2 team to not f it up. 

 

Thief and most profession have all the tools they need . Willbender just has the whole garage + a catapult to throw them at people.

Edit: Also Harbringer and Willbender are both more mobile, more dps spec on very tanky core classes without a real tradeoff, which is just bad game desgin.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

Way to diss 80+% of the player base. Little reminder for you and people on the PvP forums in general. GW 2 PvP is hard. Gold is a high level of skill. Just because you and other veteran player do make them look like literal children doesn't mean a gold 3 player isn't good. Stuff needs to be balanced around high tier but designed around the average. If the game gets designed and buffed around what the top 250 player can do, the game mode just gonna die(quicker). Starting at plat you need reflexes, multitasking and finger dexterity on a level some people just don't have or wouldn't get even with training.

😦💔

 

Wasn't trying to diss anyone at all, was just pointing out that gold is indeed lower than plat on our lovely arbitrary dopamine meters(Rating ladder). As it is higher than silver and bronze, and plat itself is lower than Legend. 

 

If a build isn't effective at all levels of play then it is not the Most Effective Tactic Available(or meta) and that is neither the fault of gold players, old players, any sort of players. The fault there would lie with our benefactors. To be meta at every level of competitive play would require more thought and effort beyond just power coefficient decreases and CD increases.

Something like buffs and reworks, rather than shining up dukey with words and then calling it gold.(This is only a metaphor)

[SlayerXX.7138]

15 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Wasn't trying to diss anyone at all, was just pointing out that gold is indeed lower than plat on our lovely arbitrary dopamine meters(Rating ladder). As it is higher than silver and bronze, and plat itself is lower than Legend. 

Didn't think so, just found it funny you describe the majority as lower skilled^^. Also Legend isn't a tier, it is the same 5 sweaty guys, at least on my server:).

 

20 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

If a build isn't effective at all levels of play then it is not the Most Effective Tactic Available(or meta) 

Yes i know. Just pointing out if you  give out the buff wave with a meta lens you gonna risk ruining the game for the other 80+%. And halt any possible innovation. In my opinion at least.

 

If you want to buff instead of nerf you have to make every profession a different flavor of a high dps, high tankyness,  high mobility,  self buff accumulation.  Which is just lame. Or you need to put stuff  like tankyness, mobility or dps to the next level to compensate the fact they don't have 5/5 stars in every other category. A thief with significant more mobility? A rev with significant more damage. That doesn't seem like fun at all.