Suggestions from a Support Vindicator Player

[Ausar.9542]

I like the Vindicator. It grew on me. But there is still some major design flaws that were overlooked.

I wanted to start a discussion on these, specific to Support Vindicators.

 

Saint's Shield and the Dodge in General:

the Dodge mechanic was something new in general to the vindicator, but in Beta we had multiple dodges for the Support grand master. This was toned down without much compensation. Its now the same dodge as the DPS vindicator. But this becomes a more of a problem when you consider the rest of the flaws in the Support Vindicator.  

 

Lets look into the Legend.

 

The Elite- Urn of Saint Viktor:

This elite skill is flawed in its design. I can understand it as a concept. But since the multiple dodges for Support was removed, the side effect for this skill need to be adjusted. It doesnt need both the

*No Incoming Healing

and

*Self Damage while Upkeep

During the beta, we at least had the multi dodge as a self defense mechanism to counter the additional sacrifices we have.  But now thats removed, this elite isnt that good anymore, especially in WvW setting which has massive incoming damage coming from all sorts of sources. We have limited self defense utility compared to other mainstream support classes. This elite doesnt need both these trade offs as long as we are stuck with one dodge of this flawed dodge mechanic. 

 

Awakening: 

This skill is also flawed in its design for gameplay like WvW. The cast time, usually makes it actual hard to land this for group support in WvW. Reduce the cast time.  This ability can act up when using the Dodge mechanic as well. Which will prevent the Protection from triggering. 

 

Tree Song:

This ability can straight up be sent on cooldown and easily interrupted by dodge and sent on cooldown. It also bugs out and wont cleanse conditions on cast. 

 

Battle Dance:

This ability is flawed. What purpose does it serve? This should have been like Shiro's similar ability but with the support aspect of it added on. This Skill cant break stuns or movement limiting effects. So kind of defeats the purpose of this for self defense.  Right now I use this only for the support, because of how bad this is for self defense.  But even that is problematic since its a movement skill that can put you in bad positions away from the tag in a strategic fight. 

 

Back to the Dodge Again:

The Leap Dodge mechanic, is very flawed in general. It can be interrupted. Which defeats the purpose of this being defensive.  You can still be hit with roots and CC mid air. Not sure if this was intentional. This totally shuts down my self defense in fights and my best support effect of Saint's Shield. 

 

Some ideas and thoughts that I want to pass on to the community:

What if Energy Meld had a unique effect added to it based on the Vindicator Grandmaster trait you are using?

Whats some ideas for making Staff Vigor orbs more consistent for Support Revenants in general?

 

[Tulkas.2576]

Here is my list of complaints with vindicator. Overall I really enjoy it, particularly with Shiro/Jalis.

 

Energy meld should be instant or free and should have some extra effects like you suggested. It could literally be core rev f2 but with endurance gained instead of energy. As of now, you could basically forget about it and be 99.9% as effective.

 

Tier 1 traits are ok. I wish amnesty of shiny Jae worked with all legend abilities. I wish redemptors sermon wasn’t a proc based ability. Maybe a cleanse on dodge or something to augment energy meld. 
 

Tier 2 traits are weak. I’ve never taken anything other than Song of Arboreum and have never seen the other two even recommended for anything. Could definitely use some reworks here. I like the idea of it affecting endurance recovery but I wish there was some options. Also, if they all only affect how quickly you can dodge, then there never will be a choice,l because the one that allows for the most dodges will win. 
 

Tier 3 traits are good. I wish vassals was just a bit stronger to make it a bit more competitive.

 

I don’t like alliance legend very much. I’d rather just have the option to pick from the 10 abilities to build your action bar how you want, which would be a novelty for rev. You’d have the choice of 2 heals, 6 skills and 2 elites. Pick the skills you want and no ability to switch between the action bars. Honestly though, I still probably wouldn’t play it. Shiro/Jalis is just too fun. 
As for the actual alliance skills:

the heals for both feel pretty weak, but I guess you get two of them. They shouldn’t be channeled. Often I start casting them while taking damage and all they seem to do is heal the damage I’m currently taking so I end up with the same HP after I’ve healed. I’d rather have a cast time and then a pulsing heal afterwards. 

battle dance is weak. You can’t use it while jumping so jump->about face->battle dance doesn’t work which feels bad compared to the Shiro evade. Yes you can still about face->battle dance, but it’s not as smooth when you can’t jump.
I’d rather scavenger burst just be around the player or around the target. Or it could be more like Facet of Elements and drop a little aoe field or pulse damage or something. It feels a little off currently. 

Spear of Archemorus is ok. The torment is weird. I wish Arche stayed with the player or you could place his position. Currently it’s so easy to LoS and happens all the time by accident whether you’re trying to or not. 
Urn feels too punishing to use with the damage taken as well as the no healing. Not sure how I would change it.

Awakening, I have the same issues with it as OP does. 

I like reavers rage.

I like Nomads advance.

I like treesong.

[Shao.7236]

Have you played anything than Herald on Revenant before? Stunbreaks with cast times are common with Revenant due to how the class can in theory do as much has it has energy, nothing wrong with that as much of what you do as it has to be thought ahead of time reactive gameplay only can do so much.

 

2 hours ago, Ausar.9542 said:

The Elite- Urn of Saint Viktor

 

Is meant to be used at low health / halving bursts instantly. If you want to be a dedicated healer with it then unfortunately it's as good as it's gonna get. Not losing any energy as a trade of to health is a good mechanic to provide constant support, not only that but it allows for not being energy starved if switching to Arch which you'll inevitably have to do if you want to maximize survival, besides at half HP you get to heal more as well, losing health isn't so bad when technically if you have 20k then using urn means you have 40k while it's active and it's burst of healing is good to bounce back, it's a high risk high reward.

 

One thing they could do is lower the damage if using Steadfast Rejuvenation but that's the only thing I"d suggest.

 

2 hours ago, Ausar.9542 said:

Awakening: 

 

Team stunbreaks are already pretty rare, being able to do it so often can be a gamechanger. It's on the players ability to know when to have it on. Nothing stops you from going on Reaver's Rage if you feel Awakening to be no use, besides it's still possible to double stunbreak if needed. It's not a bad habit to switch skills before legend swapping. It's instant.

 

2 hours ago, Ausar.9542 said:

Battle Dance:

Resistance is easily applied around and whether you're damage or support. It helps fighting back against the recent condi spam, it might be 3 seconds but it can be extended too. I don't get why you think it's a bad skill, it's reactive sustain. You can always chain it after an evade if needed.

 

What they do need to fix is the fact that it doesn't count as a mobility skill for Aggressive Agility.

 

2 hours ago, Ausar.9542 said:

Back to the Dodge Again:

You have the tools to make up for the weaknesses it introduces, the effects of the dodge are really good even after the nerf. So much so that with a constant well executed rotation you never need to use other legend heals, much like it is with Ventari as you want to always maximize your dependence on it since the healing is big and it's all you can do if you pick it.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Aeolus.3615]

On 5/30/2022 at 12:14 AM, Shao.7236 said:

(snip)

 

You have the tools to make up for the weaknesses it introduces, the effects of the dodge are really good even after the nerf. So much so that with a constant well executed rotation you never need to use other legend heals, much like it is with Ventari as you want to always maximize your dependence on it since the healing is big and it's all you can do if you pick it.

This is very accurate IDK why the confuses. altough on ventari  imo personaly i would not take it if playing aliance, playing noodle Alliance is already handicap(assuming every one is playing minstrell victor..... for rev support).

Edited May 31, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

This is very accurate IDK why the confuses. altough on ventari  imo personaly i would not take it if playing aliance, playing noodle Alliance is already handicap(assuming every one is playing minstrell victor..... for rev support).

I agree, Ventari is in need of some love but yes, in principle when playing support as Revenant you should in most cases almost never have to use your healing skill that's not part of the support stance since as someone who have a lot of healing one stance it should be enough while the other is the back up under critical circumstances.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I agree, Ventari is in need of some love but yes, in principle when playing support as Revenant you should in most cases almost never have to use your healing skill that's not part of the support stance since as someone who have a lot of healing one stance it should be enough while the other is the back up under critical circumstances.

That's why i recomend always for others to use Jalis rather than ventari or shiro, rather than have "3 smoll pipi healings if shiro is sloted" wich most fail to manage, jalis heal also cleanses 5 condis if i reccall  while also being a  strong heal, and they can also have another team damage reducer, and stability carpet.

Fun fact, the diference between healing power on zealots from minstrell is arround 200 stats, while zealots can reach close to 2.8k power and close to 50% critm with so many passive damage reducers imo this would be how vindicators should be suporting, but a zerg of perma quickness  + alacrity full of minstrells and condi bunkers is far easy to get carried, and less effort is needed.... and Anet talks on bringing the player not the class rofl!.

Sadly most players only know how to support with potato minstrell stats.... 

 

 

On 5/29/2022 at 9:26 PM, Ausar.9542 said:

(snip)

Some ideas and thoughts that I want to pass on to the community:

Whats some ideas for making Staff Vigor orbs more consistent for Support Revenants in general?

 

Acumulative Orbs arround the caster, that when touching alies would heal them similiar to how catalyst have the elemental skills floating arround, let say 10 orbs would be the max to hold, staff 5 would be an amazing push.

Orbs could also be a resource to be detonated when reaching max or when player would choose?

Edited May 31, 2022 by Aeolus.3615