Renegade, Kalla, and the shortbow.. why all those are useless in WvW (atm imo)

[ZeZerT.4068]

Hello,

After trying out the Renegade in all possible ways, here are my thoughts on why it has no use in WvW as of right now.The possible ways i mention are the orientation around Power, Condition, and Hybrid damages. Here are the problems i found in all those cases.All this is considering the last update, the first post-pof balance.

• Power :For the record, stuff was some valkyrie + cavalier mix in a first time, then a marauder + zerk mixPlaying Power renegade immediately implies staff + hammer or bow, with invocations as Kalla, Shiro, Mallyx or Dwarf.Lets first see the possible weapons before invocations.So i tried out the bow first, in order to explore all possibilities. With a full power build, the auto attack is very interesting, as well as the 4th skill; the 5th isn't bad either, but mostly for the 2s knockdown and the fact that it isn't a projectile. But, its actual damage output was nowhere near the hammer.The hammer's resource consumption is way too high to use Kalla, and the damage orientation + the necessary stuff kinda takes out Mallyx. The dwarf still is in the race, but it doesn't offer much : break stun for 50 resource, one taunt and the heal. Lets not talk about the stability, as a DPS, its not the build's design to grant stability, especially when it costs 35.Kalla isn't usable either because of its design that favorites attacks per second instead of the slow, bursting attacks that provide the hammer.

But hey, we never know, lets try it ! Hammer shiro dwarf, hammer shiro kalla, hammer shiro mallyx.. nothing close to the herald hammer build. The fury given was decent, but not as good as the perma fury given by the herald, or the invul it gives. The energy management is pretty easy tho : use whether hammer or utility, since both is impossible. Going like that, why even go renegade, since herald that that much better.

• Condi :Stuff was full Dire.The bow kinda has some conditions in its kit, so it was normal to go with it.Based on my full torment build, i swapped to renegade, first with the bow instead of the staff. The bow damage output is so meh, even with full endurance so when profiting the +33% crit chance, going to 37% since i have no precision on this armor. Bleeding does nothing even with almost 2k in the condi stat + the trait that increases bleeding dmg by 25%, the torment source (bow 3) is worthless, and again, only skills 1 4 5 are usable.The Kalla invocation had here a chance since both the bow and the mace+axe set don't require that much energy to work. This is when i realized that Kalla itself is complete trash in WvW. (see below).

So here again, the herald version is way better than anything the renegade can pretend to do.

• Hybrid :Stuff : full celestial with viper bow, then celestial armor + viper trinkets & bow. Rune berserker fyi.Invocations were Mallyx + dwarf, since i was using a bow, energy consumption was limited and i could give resistance to allies while still doing something with my weapon. I tried kalla here again but hey, you know what i think about her and her crew already.. Shiro was a good option, instead of dwarf.Everything in the renegade indicates a hybrid build, based both on power and conditions to give the best. With full celestial, i could finally win a few duels, but let's be honest, it was based on opponents making too many mistakes. But still. Yet, in bus, i was nearly useless : due to all the anti projectiles, pirateship meta taking over, and such, on my 20- raid party, i could never go higher than 12th first dps, sometimes even full minstrel guards did more damage than me thanks to their F1. There, i swapped to full viper trinkets. Damage output was better, but not that significantly, and i was nowhere near my full dire torment herald, talking about either damage, tanking, or usefulness to the team.

And yeah, that build went to the trash as well.

Let's be constructive (with constructive title) and see why Kalla and the bow are so bad / meh in WvW.

• Kalla invocations are worthless :Invocations have no hit points at all, you can't summon them in the ennemie ball, they won't even have time to do anything; yes even the one that dazes.Their effects are unnoticeable and cost too much for that they do.Like cmon dude, 5 allies inflict 2s of bleeding and this costs 25 energy ? How is that even a skill ? Razorclaw must feel so sad doing so few, give him something, he's crying.The damage + cripple + vulnera is ok, but once again it is unusable since it dies whenever an enemy glances too aggressively at it.The invocation that dazes every second.. well this one, i can get that it dies rather quickly since its effect is pretty strong. But it does not survive even long enough to cast one single daze, so...The elite now, i can't say it's bad since i have no actual data to know if its really usefull : i have no possible record on what the invocation did. The damage addition given to allies (me excluded) by this skill appear nowhere ingame, so i can't say its damages are good, or it's healing is sufficient, since i can't know.Healing skill is not bad, giving a condi damage reduction, but it means that we have nothing against "inhibiting conditions" (as they say in the weaver traits), so if i'm caught and crippled while in Kalla, my only options are having my staff up or my f1 up so i can try to escape using another invocation. Nothing really viable.

• What could be done to make Kalla usable :

  1. Give invocations either more health, allowing them not to die at the first mean look;
  2. No health at all, making them unkillable, but then lowering the time they are invoked;
  3. An invul for 1 or 2 seconds (as with the blueprints). Maybe even putting it in a trait (instead of the Sudden Reversal for example, this trait is pure garbage)
  4. With same health, make their effects more powerful : invocations that buff allies could target 10 of them, Razerclaw could give longer bleeding or a second condition along the bleeding..
  5. Give them charges ? with lower cost, same health, invocations could have 2 maybe 3 charges. This only would make Razerclaw, Icerazor and Darkrazor viable imo. Elite doesn't need it, heal idk.
  6. Reduce casting time to 1/2 or even 1/4. (3/4 right now)

• Bow is useless :Spam 1 is good, but you can't only rely on that. Bleeding could be longer.While writing this, i'm still wondering why skill 2 even exists. It does less than the auto attack in the same casting time, if the target is moving then not a single shot hits, and if you count on the piercing projectiles to hit enemies around the target, LOL. those never hit.Skill 3 is near impossible to use at 900, it becomes good at 400~700 range where at least 2 projectiles hit, but it's frustrating to shot 7 and hope that at least 2 hit. At 900, hoping that all 7 will hit with the cast time, considering our own and enemy's movements, as well as terrain... requires years of training.Skill 4 is good, even considering the delay between the end of cast and the moment the field actually is here. Both the burning and the brut damage are ok; it is also nice that it isn't a projectile, meaning we have something against all those war bubbles popping in fights.Skill 5 is good, same as skill 4, except that you shouldn't count on its damage but more on its 2s knockdown on 5 targets.Overall, cooldowns are ok to me, could be better of course, but could be far worse.

• What could be done to make the bow a bit better :

  1. Give skill slot 2 a real attack, something usable. Start by making projectiles come by a plane angle, those shots coming from above only make them avoidable with a side step, not even a dodge. Up its damage and/or its bleeding duration, add some stacks of it maybe, or another condition as poison or chill. Right now, using this skill is a misplay whatever is the situation.
  2. Skill 3 could use a lower cast time, or making a few of the 7 projectiles unblockable (all of them would be too much i guess), making them faster so that aiming this does not require an engineer diploma and 3hours of calculations every time, have "archers" closer from each other so that shots aren't too wildly dispersed.
  3. Not necessarily, but skill 4 and 5 could use some longer burning duration or shorted cast time (especially skill 4's delay)

Traits + F2 F3 F4 are pretty good tho to my opinion. Maybe F3 could have a reduced casting time and a longer burning duration. F2 and F4 are perfect, especially now with the last update.Ashen Demeanor has a too long CD to be used in WvW, but the two other possible traits are good enough anyway. This trait without cooldown would be insane because of Darkrazor, but while Kalla's invocations are so trash, all other invocations could use this trait without cooldown without being too powerful, same for the weapons.

Almost forgot : F4 giving Alacrity to 5 allies including us, but i still don't get the point of having alacrity as Revenant, cooldowns are already short enough or almost non existing, maybe Alacrity could improve the energy regeneration rate, not with another tick of regen, but by reducing the time each tick increase energy by the 33% giving in the alacrity description.

TL;DR : Well i feel you bro, i wrote quite a lot here, but can't sum it up in 1 sentence.

[otto.5684]

I will sound anti climatic, but sadly we know this ?

SB primary damage skills cannot reliably hit. Renegade lacks sustainability, and is even more susceptible to condi damage than herald.

There is no game mode where SB is viable. Renegade works in PvE as dps upgrade to pre PoF condi build. Not much there otherwise.

[ZeZerT.4068]

I felt the need to say all that :'( i'm sad because renegade has a lot of potential, mechanics given are interesting and could easily be viable or even good, at least in WvW. In PvE, I always feel like things will become too powerful.

But yeah i checked afterwards and we are many to say that kind of things. Some go a bit too far saying energy should be removed and all, but the idea is here.

[GottFaust.5297]

For zerg-play: maybe try Staff/SB Kalla/Vent in Celestial as a midline support with some damage pressure. One of the people I know whose been trying to make renegade work says he's having pretty good success running that setup. Not sure how it stacks up against Firebrand though.

[ZeZerT.4068]

Thanks Gott i'll try that, its true that full celestial allow some healing.

[Jthug.9506]

I have been having a good time playing trailblazer kalla/ventari in WvW, I get to do some clutch healing and projectile reflect, as well as life steal and 50% condi redux, meanwhile in zerg v zerg combat most of the problems with shortbow actually become benefits. 7shot with piercing is pure troll into a big group and the sb2 can go ahead and miss my target but it's gonna hit a lot of ppl anyhow. Plus the F skills all get mad use in WvW, there is never enough alacrity or might and dropping in a big bunch of flaming arrows from another dimension on a zerg is a most satisfying experience. Also being in trailblazer gear makes you pretty kitten tough, and you get that nice little bonus to healing power from the armor.

[Arkaile.5604]

@Jthug.9506 said:I have been having a good time playing trailblazer kalla/ventari in WvW, I get to do some clutch healing

You're going to have to explain that to me. If you're running around using only trailblazer gear, the only healing power you'll have, not counting consumables, will come from Hardened Foundation converting 7% of your toughness into healing power; you won't be doing any "clutch healing" with only 160 healing power, even with salvation's bonuses to outgoing healing.

[Jthug.9506]

Clutch as in secondary top off, but it actually matters in heavy zergs, although the primary reason for spamming those heals is to put out alacrity, but it doesn't hurt to be doing 5-8k heals while I am at it. I was thinking of clutch as that heal you get when you are low that tides you over while you wait for the next big heal.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

What other weapons besides the shortbow did you use in the condi builds?

[ZeZerT.4068]

It was mace / axe, since no other viable melee or ranged weapons are available. Usually with a staff switch, for the defensive option while being melee.

[Blueraz.2416]

Ive been using hammer and swords or hammer and staff in WvW on my renegade. I am actually passing normal herrald damage at times or coming close to the pro herrald players. Dont use renegade skills at all since its useless in WvW. Also currently roam on renegade also. condi as said before is useless in WvW unless your hybrd or full power renegade wont work.