June 28 Balance Patch [Feedback]

[saerni.2584]

1 hour ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

Why would anyone already be in stealth before they steal playing OH dagger and using SA?  If you're already in stealth, you just run at them with superspeed and simply use CnD at the end of the cast, since CnD with the current iteration of SA is already initiative-positive.  This saves steal for its most meaningful instant interrupt and mobility which D/D will heavily rely on to maintain pressure and stay alive.

Stealth on steal denying CnD for D/D power creates a worse version of D/P considering Steal->Backstab->Shadow Shot->HS is strictly better than Steal->(wait)->CnD->Backstab->HS from both a damage and utility perspective while giving players more chances to counterplay D/D than it already provides.  Plus slowing down D/D means less usage of major benefits like boons from ToTC and Twin Fangs, as being brought below 90% during the "Idle in stealth" phase of the purported combo is extremely likely.

Condi P/D is the only real direct beneficiary here, as it does not use CnD specifically as a major source of damage unlike D/D since the backstab nerf, and it has its Shadow Strike/Repeater combo available outside of stealth during the revealed timer.

It makes no sense for the kit with the lowest amount of control and utility and already-struggling burst to have its damage slowed down, and other kits' burst damage access increased with safer play conditions (I.E. reliable, no-counter stealth from range) needing to burn fewer resources to do so.

The fact is that Stealth on Steal was not in any way essential to any kit combination, and actively makes it harder to play another.

I disagree that Stealth on Steal doesn't make sense for various kits. It naturally doesn't make sense to play them the same way as before. But that won't mean you can't use your other weapon skills and then deliver a finishing blow with steal into a Backstab in an effective manner. The benefit of D/D over D/P is having Dancing Daggers and an evade built into the kit. D/P needs the gap closer whereas D/D has options to close in and cripple the target before vanishing into Stealth for a quick backstab. 
 

Would your preference then be to have the current Hidden Thief (weakness on stealth attack and a blind on steal) moved to the Minor trait, and have Stealth on Steal restored to where it was? I'm not opposed to that alternative, but my question is whether that is weak enough for a Minor, and also whether what I just described actually reflects your thinking on what makes sense for the actual trait implementation.

[saerni.2584]

I'd like to make a response to the release of the Design Philosophy for the June 28 patch. 
 

There is nothing surprising in the Design Philosophy statement for Thief. They indicated they wanted to move away from traits that involved camping in Stealth. But that was obvious already from the patch itself. 
 

They also indicated they wanted to move away from high stealth uptime gameplay and indicated that was the reason they eliminated several traits that granted stealth. However, they basically got rid of ALL of the traits when they stated that the problem was when all the traits were "compounded" together. So they admitted they didn't try to find a balance with those traits and instead got rid of everything. 
 

My response is that they should realize their patch was 1) good as far as the changes to traits promoting enter/exit stealth, 2) neutral as far as adding effective support traits (one of their proposed reasons for changing the SA specialization, but less strong than necessary to make it a good choice), 3) bad insofar as they already made many changes to stealth bonuses that would encourage weaving in/out of stealth, but also removed stealth access to use those bonuses (basically, this was bad because they overnerfed and didn't give themselves the chance to evaluate the enter/exit stealth changes in isolation). 

[nopoet.2960]

On 7/9/2022 at 10:03 AM, saerni.2584 said:

..., 2) neutral as far as adding effective support traits (one of their proposed reasons for changing the SA specialization, but less strong than necessary to make it a good choice)..

I think they want people to slot blinding powder and shadow refuge to trigger Panakau's Ambition and the changes in SA but if you are running a support specter you really want to bring your wells.  I was thinking that well of bounty should stealth the thief but now I think it really it should also just provide stealth to everyone.  That would take it from being kind of bad to tying specter and SA in a real way.

Also not sure if Shadstep siphon triggers merciful ambush but if not it really should.  Never mind they changed merciful ambush.

Edited July 12, 2022 by nopoet.2960

[kash.9213]

54 minutes ago, nopoet.2960 said:

I think they want people to slot blinding powder and shadow refuge to trigger Panakau's Ambition and the changes in SA but if you are running a support specter you really want to bring your wells.  I was thinking that well of bounty should stealth the thief but now I think it really it should also just provide stealth to everyone.  That would take it from being kind of bad to tying specter and SA in a real way.

Also not sure if Shadstep siphon triggers merciful ambush but if not it really should.  Never mind they changed merciful ambush.

If it's just a quick in and out of stealth for everyone to kick off Panakau's Ambition I'd use it, but I kind of want everyone to do as much as they can while under the boon lineup from WoB instead of idle in Stealth for a few seconds. I still like pistol 5 and blast from Shroud before I know everyone is about to crash into each other or before a shootout, but I agree with you, there should be a more fundamental way for the broad spectrum of players to think about their build and trait synergy as long as it's in there. I also agree that I'd rather bring wells over those at this point, they feel good walking with a fight. 

[nopoet.2960]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

If it's just a quick in and out of stealth for everyone to kick off Panakau's Ambition I'd use it...

For sure! I'd expect my teammates to break stealth immediately.  It's just something to trigger the on stealth traits.  If you need something longer I'd bring refuge or get a mesmer or engi to do it.    

[BobbyT.7192]

On 7/9/2022 at 11:03 AM, saerni.2584 said:

They also indicated they wanted to move away from high stealth uptime gameplay and indicated that was the reason they eliminated several traits that granted stealth. However, they basically got rid of ALL of the traits when they stated that the problem was when all the traits were "compounded" together. So they admitted they didn't try to find a balance with those traits and instead got rid of everything

My hope is from this is that it leads to buffs down the road to help compensate for the lack of stealth access. Like cool-down reduction on deception skills or buff to stealth attacks to promotes the aggressive play-style the devs seems to want to encourage.  

[wesly.6497]

Can you fix Coalescence of Ruin (Hammer skill 2 Rev) it is impossible to hit someone up-close. The gap between you and the target is too big, skill is unusable in melee.

Edited November 12, 2022 by wesly.6497

[wesly.6497]

6 hours ago, wesly.6497 said:

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by wesly.6497

[wesly.6497]

7 hours ago, wesly.6497 said:

Can you fix Coalescence of Ruin (Hammer skill 2 Rev) it is impossible to hit someone up-close. The gap between you and the target is too big, skill is unusable in melee.

  well, what can I say, it took them 10 years to make a dragon tooth cool and a box of nails well, at least now you can click well done keep it up