Raid difficulty and challenge motes

[Crevox.5806]

LOL no dude. You NEED training. I don't care how much you think you know about the raids. If you have never done them, and never raided and killed a boss then you need it. There is no shortcut. And its insulting to everyone here to sit here and think because you 'think' you are a skilled player and are a vet to MMO's that somehow removes that need.

Standing in a green circle, dodging blue circles, and moving to specific sections of the arena depending on your role is baby tier compared to raids in WoW (mythic) or FFXIV (savage). Yeah, I know it's the first boss, but I also can't even get into a group for it.

Those games also do not do or need "training" runs. This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

[Brujeria.7536]

I don't think any resources should be spent to make raids or party building more accessible, really. You will always find people that want to achieve the same goal, maybe you have to invest something gear wise or look in the lfg for longer, but really, there is always a way.

As for the difficulty in raids i think the two major problems are:

1. The "speed" in the raids. Most encounters have rather few and "slow" mechanics and attacks. The mechanics are mostly tied to a few key positions, and the boss uses an ability every 10 seconds or so. This ends up to mindless skill rotation spam most of the time. Why cant bosses have quicker and more frequent mechanics and attacks? For the most part a lot of encounters are moving, spamming dps rotations and dodge every 10 seconds when mechanic X occurs. That feels like so much wasted potential

2. How the encounters are built. Most encounter introduce more mechanics, the further the health of the boss drops. In my impression, the bosses really only get "somewhat" challenging at the last 33% - 25% of life, this is where the real bossfight begins. See Sabetha, Gorseval, etc.

The overall pace here is sooooo sluggish for this wonderfull and quick combat system GW2 has in place, you dont need slow boss attacks with a 4 second visual tell, 1,5 seconds is enough. Why aren't there more random attacks in between these tells? Most bosses do a set amount of auto attacks, before using mechanic X, why cant they have a pool of 3 or 5 attacks with different patterns or mechanics they do randomly, both in number and quantity, between the main mechanics? These don't have to be oneshotting or a mechanic in itself, just to make the fight less static and predictable.

The boss fight i like the most up to date is Matthias. This is the only boss that feels kinda upredictable mechanic wise. Sure, some of the AOE effects are still too slow for my taste and the attacks feel too scripted, but its still the most fun encounters.

I think raid's for the most part are still in children's shoes based on whats theoreticly possible and i hope ANET will start to introduce real quallenging and quicker encounters somewhere in the future.

[Lakemine.3014]

@"That Guy.5704" said:I completely understand ANet's position. I really do. If it means that more raids can be put out when they dont have to worry about different difficulties, then absolutely focus on new content.

On the other hand, I also completely understand that while raid encounters are not meant to be accessible by everyone, more people would like to get in and get a taste of the general encounters and see the story and I know that nearly all the story is outside of the encounters. I know that the following wont happen, but just going to leave it here as an "if I could" idea.

Easy mote: Increases outgoing damage and condition damage by 33%, decreases incoming damage and condition damage by 33%. Encounters remain the same. Maybe even bigger damage increase/reduction numbers, whatever. Rewards per boss: 2 champ bags 2 bags of gear once a week. Thats it. This wouldnt be something anyone should want to repeat, but would let most people get the encounters done to see whats going on without actually giving them access to any meaningful rewards apart from the story. Doing something like this would allow more core stories to be told. As I remember the Saul story almost didnt make it because it may have been too "core". Also, easy mode shouldnt be available in the newest wing and should only show up once the following wing is released so that first kills are completed on normal mode.

^^^ This. Similar to my idea, but just slightly better I think. And yes agreed about new raids, there should not be a reduction to it when it has the extra gold buff, until its removed and placed on the new one.

[That Guy.5704]

@Pingu.8431 said:I mean nothing is stopping them from currently "getting a taste of the general encounters and seeing the story". All they need to do is watch a few videos, fix their build and ask for help which people are more than happy to do. It generates discussion and gives purpose. All it really takes is some initiative and an open mind.

Your're right, and thats typically the answer I give to people that complain raids are too hard primarily because there is no better option. I personally dont need an easy mode. I am 4 insights from enough for my 18th piece of legendary armor. My group would do CMs repeatedly if we had a reason to. But looking at it from the other side, I think it does warrant more consideration than alot of people on the forums and reddit are willing to give it (not ANet, specifically because I am sure they have considered it). My specific suggestion doesnt ask to rebalance the actual encounter and has nearly no physical reward, so even if it does somehow result in a bad balance, its not something that is really exploitable for anything meaningful (you would get more out of fractal 40). I'd personally like to see those 10 people who never wanted to get into real raids for whatever reason try the easy mode for the story and then say "hey, that was fun, want to try some other ones?" and later "anyone want to try them on normal?". basically nudging them into real raids. But again, if it doesnt happen and this would take too much away from real raid dev time, thats fine with me.

[meeflak.9714]

@Crevox.5806 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Crevox.5806 said:As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

This mindset of "I'm better then learning" or" I shouldn't have to" is what keeps people from getting into raiding.You do have to. I had to. Everyone who has killed a raid had to. You need the motivation to learn.

[Lakemine.3014]

@meeflak.9714 said:I really just dislike the idea of challenge motes all together. Translating new mechanics into a raid that could have been there to Begin with feels really restrictive from a design point of view. Why try balancing the difficulty of two separate pieces, and leaving out mechanics you obviously care enough about, just to make another tier of difficulty with those mechanics? It seems alittle redundant to make a CM for every encounter in a wing. A few here and there seems good but not a whole wing

To add challenge for the people who want it. I think its a good thing, even if I can't do them now or for another year, I will hopefully get there. Also, they should make them repeatable, like Nightmare mode in SWTOR.

[Chameleon Dude.1564]

Well, it's good to see a post on this - even if I disagree.

I've played consistently since launch, I have multiple characters kitted out in ascended gear and know my way around both combat in this game and raids encounters in others. However, around HoT release, I was unable to devote a large amount of uninterrupted time to raiding. Even to this day, I can't promise that I'll be on at a certain time on a certain day. And while I am a capable player, my friends are either not skilled enough or not interested in this game's raids. All together, this means that I don't have a stash of LIs to get into PUGs, I'm not suitable for a static group and I can't just gather up some friends/guildies and tackle a raid whenever we feel like it. I've joined training guilds, only for the other trainees to fail mechanics or output so little dps that the trainers give up and let the guild die. I've tried.

I'm a skilled enough player who would love to do some raiding, but can't. No, this isn't a "woe is me" kind of post - these things happen and it sucks. However, when raid design was being discussed with Anet on the old forums, there were constant warnings about gating (either by the game's systems or the playerbase) and the toxicity/elitism that can occur; we did ask Anet to consider ways to reduce these if at all possible. Here we are now with an item, LIs, which exist as a gating mechanism for the playerbase and no real tools to help people get into the scene. We rely purely on the kindness of a few players who try to teach and help groups to form, but the demand far exceeds the supply.

If a player wants to start raiding today, it's down to pot luck or connections whether they can even have a realistic chance to succeed down the line. I'm not talking about killing the boss on the first attempt - I just mean about being able to be a part of the raiding community. Even if a group of newbies tries and tries for that first kill... that one LI won't get them into groups. Twenty won't. They'll struggle at fifty. There's other things such as build diversity and balance which is also far from perfect, but that's not really what this thread is about so I'll leave it there as a mention. At any rate; I, personally, wouldn't mind slower development on content if it meant that tools/systems were put in place to help more people experience that content. To established raiders, this means less content for them - that's not great for them and I appreciate that. However, for the rest of us, it means we go from zero raid content to... well... raid content. The developers' future content will be experienced by even more players and be even more worthwhile to the game.

Anyway, that's enough rambling from me. On other games, I was the kind of person who'd help train up entire clans/guilds/whatevers to get into end game content. Here I'm just another scrub who needs to git gud because raids must be too difficult for me.

[Blaeys.3102]

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@"Crystal Reid.2481" said:New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

That is disappointing - and something I feel confident you will, even if you oppose the idea of, eventually have to reconsider.

With your comments in mind, however, you need to be very mindful of lore and story/narrative. Designing fights that are meant for a smaller group is bad enough. Locking interesting story or lore behind that design (even if you try to call it a side story) is a very bad direction to go - and something that will alienate a lot of people from not just raids, but GW2 as a whole.

This just isn't true. They are side stories. They have said from the start what the direction on raids is and will be, they did not make them to be accessible without effort.But that's not to say that these stories are not accessible to any one and everyone? Assuming you do not raid, what steps have you taken to get into raiding ? All of us were beginners at some point. All it takes is alittle motivation and effort and you can jump into a training run, get the experience and then get your first kill. All it takes is for people to apply themselves. Raids are really much more accessible then people imagine. Arenanet designed them so those that want to apply themselves can, and those that don't want to can choose not to.

There is no such thing as a "side story" in a game like this. It is a semantic term they use to make you think it is something people interested in the "main story" would not find interesting - which, of course, is nonsense. Using the same logic, you could call the Balthazar arc a side story to the fight against the dragons, or the season one conflict with Scarlett or the upcoming arcs associated with the necromancer in the desert.

MMOs are not linear storytelling devices. They are meant to be living breathing worlds with the many conflicts and stories you find in such a world.

As far as accessibility, the thing that people like to forget is that difficulty is subjective - and when you add in preferred playstyles, unique builds (that may stray significantly from the meta but that people may still enjoy), it becomes even more subjective. Creating difficult content doesn't just make that content difficulty in a game like this - it pretty much says "play this way or you will either fail or, at best, find the experience extremely frustrating (and by default, make it frustrating for others at the same time").

the resource issue is a fair one, but the use of challenge motes proves that they can develop two difficulties for the same fight with the effort put into wing four (with Crystal even admitting that she was happy with the harder difficulty). Simply make the CM repeatable in cases like that and the issue is resolved.

[Crevox.5806]

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Crevox.5806 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Crevox.5806 said:As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

This mindset of "I'm better then learning" or" I shouldn't have to" is what keeps people from getting into raiding.You do have to. I had to. Everyone who has killed a raid had to. You need the motivation to learn.

I did learn. Stacking in green circles and dodging blue aoes that occur infrequently is not difficult, nor are the rest of the mechanics of the fight. I know most of this game is casual and easy, but concepts and mechanics like this are not difficult to me. Throw me into a run to give it a try and I'll execute it without issue. I don't even care if I have to do a training run, but like I said, there are hundreds of people trying to get into "training runs" and very few people actually putting them together.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@Crevox.5806 said:

LOL no dude. You NEED training. I don't care how much you think you know about the raids. If you have never done them, and never raided and killed a boss then you need it. There is no shortcut. And its insulting to everyone here to sit here and think because you 'think' you are a skilled player and are a vet to MMO's that somehow removes that need.

Standing in a green circle, dodging blue circles, and moving to specific sections of the arena depending on your role is baby tier compared to raids in WoW (mythic) or FFXIV (savage). Yeah, I know it's the first boss, but I also can't even get into a group for it.

Those aren't the only mechanics of the fight dude. There are VG groups all the time. If you can't find a group, there is a reason for it. I get kicked from training groups for being too experienced...that's just how many groups there are.

You are trying to put the cart before the horse, and the simple fact you are here trying to tell me how simple the fight is, rather than going out there and doing that is what i mean. I am not the one you need to be proving yourself to, the raid groups are. But you don't want to do that. Which is why you are here instead of raiding.

EDIT: Also you claim to know the mechanics....Whats stopping you from putting your own run together? You know the mechanics...or so you claim.

[That Guy.5704]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

If you had done the actual raids....

lul

I guess I should edit this..... My 746 insights says I have done them once or twice

[Crevox.5806]

You are trying to put the cart before the horse, and the simple fact you are here trying to tell me how simple the fight is, rather than going out there and doing that is what i mean. I am not the one you need to be proving yourself to, the raid groups are. But you don't want to do that. Which is why you are here instead of raiding.

Can't find a group. I'm staring at LFG all day, there are no training groups. The training discords have hundreds of people with very few actually leading the runs. I don't even care if I have to do a "training run" which is some weird rite of passage this community has created (and NO OTHER MMORPG DOES), but that opportunity is still extremely difficult to come by.

[meeflak.9714]

@Crevox.5806 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Crevox.5806 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Crevox.5806 said:As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

This mindset of "I'm better then learning" or" I shouldn't have to" is what keeps people from getting into raiding.You do have to. I had to. Everyone who has killed a raid had to. You need the motivation to learn.

I did learn. Stacking in green circles and dodging blue aoes that occur infrequently is not difficult, nor are the rest of the mechanics of the fight. I know most of this game is casual and easy, but concepts and mechanics like this are not difficult to me. Throw me into a run to give it a try and I'll execute it without issue. I don't even care if I have to do a training run, but like I said, there are hundreds of people trying to get into "training runs" and very few people actually putting them together.

You have my account name. I'm doing VG tomorrow.add me and come prove yourself

Edit to say training run

[maddoctor.2738]

First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

[Razor.6392]

I disagree! Let the raiders enjoy their challenging content. PVP, WVW, Raids, Fractals should not be modified just to shelter the casual player IMHO. Different activities for different tastes. Can't have them all!

-Signed, someone who has never done a raid.

[Mireles Lore.5942]

@"Crystal Reid.2481" said:New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

Big fan of your work.

Would you care to comment on repeatable rewards for challenge motes?

I know that it was said in the past they are intended to be a side challenge and that it was not desirable to split the community based on them. I was wondering if that has changed given some of the communities opinions?

[Blaeys.3102]

@maddoctor.2738 said:First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

There is definitely still a point in discussing it.

It was good of Crystal to come in and clarify their current direction, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of differing opinions on this topic - nor does it change the fact that many, myself included, feel a change is needed.

As to the argument that they wont continue if they find it doesn't work - just because there are people doing the content (I raid every week, for example), doesn't mean those people wouldn't prefer this kind of change. And, while the raid subforum is going to naturally skew to one side based on who actually comes here in the first place, it is still the best place to have this conversation.

[SirMoogie.9263]

@Fatalyz.7168 said:

They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate

Then what is that rate? She never said, just that they'd like to get them out as fast as possible, which I'm guessing would still be the case if they had challenge motes. I presume it was also the case when they added challenge motes to the fourth raid. This goal will not change no matter what they choose to do. Their goal for rate of release is unclear as it was two months between one and two, five between two and three and seven between three and four. Either way we have no idea how long the challenge motes added to the design time, and it seems it's something they are happy putting time into, even if it adds to the schedule.

At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

Of course I'm a bit bitter. I've been playing and experiencing the lore in this series since 2007 and have not been able to see (in character) the culmination of some stories I'd like to. I do not have to "accept" anything, if by that you mean "shut up and stop voicing a contrary opinion". Minds don't change through inaction.

[Fatalyz.7168]

@Crevox.5806 said:....This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids. Other games have at least a gear score, so you at least know that that person was invested enough to gear up (I would assume, I didn't play those games). This game, you can have random people showing up in whatever they happen to have (ex - wearing soldiers stats while trying to fill a dps role, or wearing rare/exotics of differing stats). The only way groups have of determining someone's willingness to invest, is in the number of LI that others have accrued (or any other arbitrary means, like the AP requirements in prev dungeon running days). Whether right or wrong, it is the method that the community adopted, to at least filter out those that were not invested.

Something to consider about training runs, they can end up being like auditions. The reason for this is because a lot of the experienced community gives back by helping to run these. You do a training run, even if it gets nowhere, you can still get noticed and invited to a guild. I understand if you don't want to do them, I refused to do them myself, but it took me a much longer time to get into raiding, than it had to.

[DoM.8396]

@"Crystal Reid.2481" said:... Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really...

I think this issue is more important than new content, after the next raid release. I know many people who rarely experience raids because they have tried in the past but had one too many bad experiences due to over achieving leaders and haven't tried again since.

I get tons of emails on qtfy's website from players that want to be accepted more into raids and don't know what their doing wrong and just want help figuring out why they aren't wanted. It's crushing to these players who get kicked out of raids for doing 5-15% less damage than the other DPS players in the raid; even with a boss kill.

A proper LFG system to pair players together that resembles other popular MMO LFG systems would do wonders for the more "casual" community that are looking to raid and understand how to play their profession. It will also allow raiders to quickly get paired up and get their kills without needing to be apart of a static raid group that follows a raiding schedule. You already have ways to "measure" player experience in raids and you can put those to use when pairing people together if that is a design choice ArenaNet would want to take.

This has been something I personally look forward to in future QoL changes along with build templates and I hope it goes into development sooner than later =)

[meeflak.9714]

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

There is definitely still a point in discussing it.

It was good of Crystal to come in and clarify their current direction, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of differing opinions on this topic - nor does it change the fact that many, myself included, feel a change is needed.

As to the argument that they wont continue if they find it doesn't work - just because there are people doing the content (I raid every week, for example), doesn't mean those people wouldn't prefer this kind of change. And, while the raid subforum is going to naturally skew to one side based on who actually comes here in the first place, it is still the best place to have this conversation.

Have you ever tried raiding?

[Sarat Roy.1935]

I almost spat my drink out reading OPs post. T1/T2 fractals?? The day that raids come anywhere near that level is the day raids will die/the community will just quit. Raids have been the only thing keeping me interested in the game, especially the CMs when W4 came out. If the bar for raids is dropped to casual level i'll be saying goodbye too. Sure the high level fractals are fun, but for me that's not enough instanced content.

Many raid bosses are already easily clear-able by pug groups, I formed squads for every CM with 9 pugs and killed every W4 boss apart from Samrog without raiding with my guild. In my opinion, with how easy it is to get ascended gear (too many methods to list to be honest) the bar for raids is EXTREMELY low as it is, with good groups consistently killing the boss in half the enrage timer.

[Blaeys.3102]

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

There is definitely still a point in discussing it.

It was good of Crystal to come in and clarify their current direction, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of differing opinions on this topic - nor does it change the fact that many, myself included, feel a change is needed.

As to the argument that they wont continue if they find it doesn't work - just because there are people doing the content (I raid every week, for example), doesn't mean those people wouldn't prefer this kind of change. And, while the raid subforum is going to naturally skew to one side based on who actually comes here in the first place, it is still the best place to have this conversation.

Have you ever tried raiding?

I answer your question in the first sentence of the third paragraph of the post you just quoted.

[Fatalyz.7168]

@SirMoogie.9263 said:

@Fatalyz.7168 said:

They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate

Then what is that rate? She never said, just that they'd like to get them out as fast as possible, which I'm guessing would still be the case if they had challenge motes. I presume it was also the case when they added challenge motes to the fourth raid. This goal will not change no matter what they choose to do. Their goal for rate of release is unclear as it was two months between one and two, five between two and three and seven between three and four. Either way we have no idea how long the challenge motes added to the design time, and it seems it's something they are happy putting time into, even if it adds to the schedule.

At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

Of course I'm a bit bitter. I've been playing and experiencing the lore in this series since 2007 and have not been able to see (in character) the culmination of some stories I'd like to. I do not have to "accept" anything, if by that you mean "shut up and stop voicing a contrary opinion". Minds don't change through inaction.

I did not mean it as "shut up and stop voicing a contrary opinion". I mean it quite literally about the being bitter part. Being bitter is not good for you. By all means, if you wish to go on and continue being bitter, be bitter.

It's not about minds changing, it's about minds accepting that they are not going to get the change that they want and learning to accept that or move on. That part usually happens around the time someone gets tired of being bitter about something in a video game, and different for every person.

[Crevox.5806]

I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids.

I agree with you that this is (at least partially) where it stems from. A lot of the content in this game is very easy and people have no benchmark for themselves or others to determine how good they are. I've seen it myself in the hundreds of fractals I've run: player quality is ALL OVER the place. Not only is there no way for any individual to determine ahead of time if you know what you're doing, but a lot of players themselves don't even know if they're performing well, because the game gives so little feedback on that fact for you to form an understanding. Refining my gameplay and build/etc has gotten much easier thanks to having a DPS meter, but due to the nature of this game, I highly doubt the majority of players take that effort. I just started doing T4 fractals last night and the player quality so far has not improved from doing T1-T3 pugs; the bosses just take longer. I would say 99% of the players I've partied with would not be ready for a raid just by looking at their DPS, let alone their ability to handle their mechanics. That's totally fine, raids aren't for everyone and not everyone has to perform at that level, but when these players want to actually do raids, they hold back the groups because they aren't prepared (and I'm not saying that is their fault either).

And look, I don't mean to sound egotistical; I just know where I stand, and took the effort to figure that out as well. There are players like me out there that want to get into raids and are confident in doing so. However, there is no avenue for us to take to get going. Everyone says to just do the "training runs"; which, like you said, is basically an audition. And yeah, sure, maybe that's the way to go, but that's currently 1000 players trying to fit through a door with 3 people leading them through it, PER BOSS. It's a long line of waiting and most people probably aren't ready for it. I've seen the discords come back and say the training groups failed the VG runs, and while I've never done VG (so this may be presumptuous), I find it difficult to believe that he did not die. Even if I finally get into the mythical unicorn "VG training run", what's next? Another 1000 hours of searching for the next boss "training run?" And so on? I just came back to the game, I haven't done any of the bosses, and sure seems like there's quite a few.

So yeah, while I understand the community's concern, this still leads to a situation where you have these fancy tight knit groups doing all the fun and difficult content, and anyone else is struggling to get into this fancy "elite" groups to do the content, while they sometimes decide to take a couple players to "train" them. I am looking for a better way to get going and hoping ArenaNet does something to facilitate this.