Condition Damage vs Expertise. Which is better? (Domination/Midnight)

[HuskyKurai.7324]

I've seen too many posts saying Expertise was better then Condition Damage but in-game toggling the Mesmer's Signet of Midnight and Signet of Domination, the 180 Condition Damage is showing more damage then the 180 Expertise duration boost. Is Condition Damage actually stronger then Condition Duration or is there some hidden stat that I was overlooking and people talking about it never mention?

 

[Logos.3042]

General rule of thumb is that for burst, Condi Dmg is better; if a longer fight, Expertise.

Expertise affects all conditions and lets them tick longer and longer which is really good for kiting and situations where you are doing defensive or mobility actions and cant be applying conditions.  

My goal is to max Expertise, then stack Condi because I also value cripples, daze, vulnerability, etc, all lasting longer, which you dont necessarily get in a DPS calculation.  

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

There's a breakpoint.  It's listed here.

[HuskyKurai.7324]

11 minutes ago, Logos.3042 said:

General rule of thumb is that for burst, Condi Dmg is better; if a longer fight, Expertise.

Expertise affects all conditions and lets them tick longer and longer which is really good for kiting and situations where you are doing defensive or mobility actions and cant be applying conditions.  

My goal is to max Expertise, then stack Condi because I also value cripples, daze, vulnerability, etc, all lasting longer, which you dont necessarily get in a DPS calculation.  

I wasn't thinking about the non damaging conditions at all so that's a good alternative effect for Expertise.


Still gotta figure out where the 'duration > damage' logic comes from.

[Pie.2167]

Expertise affects non damaging conditions, too.

Edited October 4, 2022 by For The Love Of Pie.3240

[HuskyKurai.7324]

8 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

There's a breakpoint.  It's listed here.

Problem with that breakpoint.
When 180 Condition Damage says it makes your skills do more damage then 180 Expertise does for damage, raising the number higher won't make it any more effective in terms of DPS.

Actual in-game numbers atm:

180 Condition damage

Torment 8s   262/384

Bleed 8s   262

Confusion 8s    131/67

 

180 Expertise

Torment 9s     197/284

Bleed 9s     197

Confusion 9s       98/49

 

If Condition Damage has a degrading scaling effect to it, like Toughness does (while Vitality, which it gets compared with is always a flat 1 VIT to 10 HP) then I can see where the 'breakpoint' has value but I haven't seen anyone mention anything about diminishing returns when it comes to Condition Damage.

[Salt Mode.3780]

In a PvP scenario condi damage will always be better then expertise purely because of how many condi cleanses there are out there. 

You rather get that 1 second of high damage then hoping that you can get the higher damage from the full duration. 

[HuskyKurai.7324]

9 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

In a PvP scenario condi damage will always be better then expertise purely because of how many condi cleanses there are out there. 

You rather get that 1 second of high damage then hoping that you can get the higher damage from the full duration. 

Problem.
You don't have "higher damage from the full duration. " It's less damage with a longer duration attached to it. In PvP that would make it twice as bad. Either they can survive with a heal because the DPS was weaker with this 'extended duration' OR they don't go down because the total damage is weaker even though it lasted longer and you'd think more duration means more damage total.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

21 minutes ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

Problem with that breakpoint.
When 180 Condition Damage says it makes your skills do more damage then 180 Expertise does for damage, raising the number higher won't make it any more effective in terms of DPS.

Actual in-game numbers atm:

180 Condition damage

Torment 8s   262/384

Bleed 8s   262

Confusion 8s    131/67

 

180 Expertise

Torment 9s     197/284

Bleed 9s     197

Confusion 9s       98/49

 

If Condition Damage has a degrading scaling effect to it, like Toughness does (while Vitality, which it gets compared with is always a flat 1 VIT to 10 HP) then I can see where the 'breakpoint' has value but I haven't seen anyone mention anything about diminishing returns when it comes to Condition Damage.

Yeah... the problem is with you not the numbers.  Those listed breakpoints are where condition damage and condition duration have the same effect on DPS, thus should be raised at the same relative rate.  In a freeform system, you'd obtain maximum DPS by investing condition damage until you reach the breakpoint, then investing the remaining stats evenly into expertise and condition damage.  Though we don't have a freeform system, so the best thing to do is equip Viper Gear (which has more total stats) until you reach the condition duration cap for your desired condition, then replace the remaining pieces with sinister.  

[Salt Mode.3780]

9 minutes ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

Problem.
You don't have "higher damage from the full duration. " It's less damage with a longer duration attached to it. In PvP that would make it twice as bad. Either they can survive with a heal because the DPS was weaker with this 'extended duration' OR they don't go down because the total damage is weaker even though it lasted longer and you'd think more duration means more damage total.

What im saying is, let say burn does 3k a tick for 2 seconds vs burn that does 2k per tick but lasts 4 seconds. Difference is you get a higher immediate damage from the 3k but only 6k total damage vs the 2k per tick but 8k total damage. 

In PvE where bosses don't cleanse duration is better due to condis that can stack vs in PvP you always want that immediate damage because it can be cleansed off right away before the full duration.

In which case condi is better then expertise in a PvP scenario.

[mungozen.2379]

23 minutes ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

Problem.
You don't have "higher damage from the full duration. " It's less damage with a longer duration attached to it. In PvP that would make it twice as bad. Either they can survive with a heal because the DPS was weaker with this 'extended duration' OR they don't go down because the total damage is weaker even though it lasted longer and you'd think more duration means more damage total.

Ehhh it sounds like you may be mistaken on how Condi Duration works in GW2.

Condi Duration adds time at the same current Damage Per Tick.  If you add 10% Condi Duration, each application of a Condition will do 10% more damage, assuming that your Condition lasts the full duration**.  It doesn't make the Damage Per Tick weaker in any way, you are simply getting more backloaded DPS at the same rate.

GW2 Wiki Condi Duration

** Do read the article as it best explains the math behind this.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[HuskyKurai.7324]

8 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Yeah... the problem is with you not the numbers.  Those listed breakpoints are where condition damage and condition duration have the same effect on DPS, thus should be raised at the same relative rate.  In a freeform system, you'd obtain maximum DPS by investing condition damage until you reach the breakpoint, then investing the remaining stats evenly into expertise and condition damage.  Though we don't have a freeform system, so the best thing to do is equip Viper Gear (which has more total stats) until you reach the condition duration cap for your desired condition, then replace the remaining pieces with sinister.  

I'm giving you what the game is giving me. When the game is telling me and even SHOWING ME THROUGH COMBAT that 180 Expertise will do less damage then 180 Condition Damage, you can't say it's wrong because the game is literally showing it isn't. 

I just checked the difference between both as the only benefiting stat on a golem and it told me that over a duration of 10 minutes on both, Condition Damage did more % damage overall then Expertise.

The breakpoints can say all they want to say but if Condition Damage is a flat scaling number without DIMINISHING RETURNS, then I see that Condition Damage is just better then Expertise.

OR maybe LIKE I ASKED INITIALLY:

2 hours ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

is there some hidden stat that I was overlooking and people talking about it never mention?

The first one to bring this up was Logos. Now if there's SOMETHING ELSE I'M OVERLOOKING THAT ISN'T JUST 'BREAKPOINT SAYS THESE NUMBERS SO I'M GOING TO BELIEVE IT WITHOUT A REASON WHY' then I'd like to know just as I asked for to begin with.

[mungozen.2379]

2 minutes ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

The first one to bring this up was Logos. Now if there's SOMETHING ELSE I'M OVERLOOKING THAT ISN'T JUST 'BREAKPOINT SAYS THESE NUMBERS SO I'M GOING TO BELIEVE IT WITHOUT A REASON WHY' then I'd like to know just as I asked for to begin with.

Calculating Breakpoints

A wiki article on the subject that should explain the topic well enough for you.

 

[HuskyKurai.7324]

18 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

What im saying is, let say burn does 3k a tick for 2 seconds vs burn that does 2k per tick but lasts 4 seconds. Difference is you get a higher immediate damage from the 3k but only 6k total damage vs the 2k per tick but 8k total damage. 

In PvE where bosses don't cleanse duration is better due to condis that can stack vs in PvP you always want that immediate damage because it can be cleansed off right away before the full duration.

In which case condi is better then expertise in a PvP scenario.

I get the idea of the concept for 3k to 2 and 2k to 4 but it's just numbers you made up but compared to what the game is giving, it doesn't resemble that. From the numbers I have the difference with Bleed for example:

Bleed 8s     262

Bleed 9s     197

It may last one extra second but it's total damage is worse. 262 vs 197. Why would you want a 9 second bleed that only does 197 total damage when there's a bleed that lasts 8 seconds and does 262 total damage?

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 minutes ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

I get the idea of the concept for 3k to 2 and 2k to 4 but it's just numbers you made up but compared to what the game is giving, it doesn't resemble that. From the numbers I have the difference with Bleed for example:

Bleed 8s     262

Bleed 9s     197

It may last one extra second but it's total damage is worse. 262 vs 197. Why would you want a 9 second bleed that only does 197 total damage when there's a bleed that lasts 8 seconds and does 262 total damage?

The numbers between 262 and 197 is a huge flat condi stat difference. As I have stated before duration is more important in a PvE scenario then it is in a PvP scenario. Classes that rely on condi damage in a PvE scenario once their stacks fall off their dps goes down the drain for the purpose of synergy with traits. 

I simply stated that duration is more important in PvE scenario not PvP scenario. Again mobs/bosses cant cleanse whereas players can.

[HuskyKurai.7324]

7 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

The numbers between 262 and 197 is a huge flat condi stat difference. As I have stated before duration is more important in a PvE scenario then it is in a PvP scenario. Classes that rely on condi damage in a PvE scenario once their stacks fall off their dps goes down the drain for the purpose of synergy with traits. 

I simply stated that duration is more important in PvE scenario not PvP scenario. Again mobs/bosses cant cleanse whereas players can.

If it's Trait synergy that's a reason to have Expertise, then you should have said that before because all you said before was 'CD for PVP because clense and EXP for PvE because no-clense.' I can see how extended duration's can help for the Specializations like Guardian requiring an 'enemy with 3 stacks of burn for more strike damage' while the burn duration they can apply is like 2 seconds at a time. I'm looking for why people are heavily set on the duration over damage while nobody was ever really saying why this extended duration was better.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

If it's Trait synergy that's a reason to have Expertise, then you should have said that before because all you said before was 'CD for PVP because clense and EXP for PvE because no-clense.' I can see how extended duration's can help for the Specializations like Guardian requiring an 'enemy with 3 stacks of burn for more strike damage' while the burn duration they can apply is like 2 seconds at a time. I'm looking for why people are heavily set on the duration over damage while nobody was ever really saying why this extended duration was better.

Its because condition damage can be stacked, if you are stacking burn for example wouldnt it be better to stack burns on a 6 second duration rather then a 2 second duration even if you lose like 1k damage per tick compared to the 2 second duration?

Because of how condi works duration ends up being better in a long fight because you are stacking damage. This is never the case in a PvP scenario.

[HuskyKurai.7324]

This was such a simple post that needed such a simple answer.........................

 

[[[   Condition Damage - More damage per stack, less stacks on the target at a time.       (100 damage x 5 stacks)    ]]]

[[[   Expertise Duration - Less damage per stack, more stacks on the target at a time.       (50  damage x 10 stacks)   ]]]

this bit here ^^^ this was not a hard thing to type. Why did it take this long for anyone to reference this factor even a little?

 

Instead, I get a,

1 and done comment with actual benefits,

a 1 and done copy paste of the already mentioned 'benefits' aka the Llama didn't read,

a double quote post of the Wiki page because not being replied to at all means you should try it again,

a consistent 'the Breakpoint is correct because it is numbers and you aren't correct because you are not numbers so I shall quote your numbers but not bring them up and instead keep saying how Breakpoint is correct and you should just do what it says on the basis that you should just do it',

and finally a mix of number examples of duration over damage implying a singular stack with number values that are too obscure to make a proper non-biased example out of (compared to the basic 100/5/50/10 I did above) while also replying with my own numbers that could be used as the example only to get ignored while continuing to reference more PvP as a factor that was not initially asked about nor was it attempted to show any interest in it's factoring into figure out the difference between Condition Damage and Expertise.

 

I hate the fact that I decided I wasn't going to add a line saying how I don't need links or comments saying 'follow the charts other people already made' or 'this one is better and that's why we use it and I don't need to explain why because we know it is'. I assumed it was too snarky but it seems I needed to do that.

[Eponet.4829]

3 hours ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

The breakpoints can say all they want to say but if Condition Damage is a flat scaling number without DIMINISHING RETURNS, then I see that Condition Damage is just better then Expertise.

 

 

There's no diminishing returns. Instead, the two stats have appreciating returns with each other.

The full formula for overall damage is (1+0.00067(expertise))*(Condition base damage + Condition damage coefficient(Condition Damage))

 

To illustrate,
Assume that a given skill inflicts 10 seconds of burning.
0 bonus condition duration or damage from other sources.

 

Burning does 131 + 0.155(Condition Damage) per second making the formula for the skill's damage 1310+1.55(Condition Damage) over the full duration.

 

Each point of condition damage adds exactly 1.55 to the total damage no matter how much you currently have.

 

Conversely, expertise adds ~0.00067% duration per point. So with 0 condition damage, it will be adding (0.00067*1310) damage per point, or 0.873 points of damage per point of expertise.

 

By that logic, condition damage should be significantly stronger. However, consider another scenario where you already have 1000 condition damage and 0 burn duration.

 

The formula instead becomes (1+0.00067(additional expertise))(2860+1.55(Additional Condition Damage)).

 

 

Adding an extra point of condition damage continues adding 1.55 damage per use of the skill.

However, adding an extra point of expertise now adds 0.00067*2860 = 1.9162 damage per skill use.

 

It's basically the same deal as with power, crit and ferocity. The more you have of one, the more valuable the other stat becomes.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Eponet.4829

[mungozen.2379]

1 hour ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

a double quote post of the Wiki page because not being replied to at all means you should try it again,

You have posted in this thread incorrect information about how Condi Damage and Condi Duration work.  You also dismissed poster responses about how it works and used all caps to show how you didn't believe other posters here.  In fact, knowing that Salt Mode tends to be a bit abrasive I was actually trying to give you access to all of the information you needed before you well, started ranting incorrectly and potentially incoherently.

You get the Wiki links as they are publicly curated and well baked information that is fairly hard to dispute.  The second link directs specifically to understanding what the breakpoints are and how they are calculated, in response to you clearly showing that you do not understand the information that was being discussed in this thread and using all caps to ask for more information.

For real though, no one here is out to make your life harder.  You asked a question and we tried to help.  That you didn't appreciate the help, meh, I hope you enjoy the game.

[HuskyKurai.7324]

2 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

You have posted in this thread incorrect information about how Condi Damage and Condi Duration work.  You also dismissed poster responses about how it works and used all caps to show how you didn't believe other posters here.  In fact, knowing that Salt Mode tends to be a bit abrasive I was actually trying to give you access to all of the information you needed before you well, started ranting incorrectly and potentially incoherently.

You get the Wiki links as they are publicly curated and well baked information that is fairly hard to dispute.  The second link directs specifically to understanding what the breakpoints are and how they are calculated, in response to you clearly showing that you do not understand the information that was being discussed in this thread and using all caps to ask for more information.

For real though, no one here is out to make your life harder.  You asked a question and we tried to help.  That you didn't appreciate the help, meh, I hope you enjoy the game.

If only that was true. What was it I was saying again? Lets see:

"Is Condition Damage actually stronger then Condition Duration or is there some hidden stat that I was overlooking"

"Still gotta figure out where the 'duration > damage' logic comes from. "

"If Condition Damage has a degrading scaling effect to it...  then I can see where the 'breakpoint' has value but I haven't seen anyone mention anything about diminishing returns when it comes to Condition Damage."

"I'm giving you what the game is giving me. When the game is telling me and even SHOWING ME THROUGH COMBAT that 180 Expertise will do less damage then 180 Condition Damage, you can't say it's wrong because the game is literally showing it isn't.

I just checked the difference between both as the only benefiting stat on a golem and it told me that over a duration of 10 minutes on both, Condition Damage did more % damage overall then Expertise."

"From the numbers I have the difference with Bleed for example:

Bleed 8s     262

Bleed 9s     197

It may last one extra second but it's total damage is worse. 262 vs 197. Why would you want a 9 second bleed that only does 197 total damage when there's a bleed that lasts 8 seconds and does 262 total damage?"

Looks like it was a lot of 'how does it work, does it have a stat drop of some kind, here's the damage numbers the game is displaying for me when adding these specific numbers to my stats, here's how different the damage was in combat.' So no. I wasn't giving incorrect info. I wasn't getting the info I kept asking for and kept bringing up.

But I bet I was dismissive with CAPS trying to use them to FOCUS ON THE RESULT I WAS ASKING FOR.

" Now if there's SOMETHING ELSE I'M OVERLOOKING THAT ISN'T JUST 'BREAKPOINT SAYS THESE NUMBERS SO I'M GOING TO BELIEVE IT WITHOUT A REASON WHY' then I'd like to know just as I asked for to begin with. "

But what was it they happen to say that made me use CAPS for it?

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Yeah... the problem is with you not the numbers.  Those listed breakpoints are where condition damage and condition duration have the same effect on DPS, thus should be raised at the same relative rate.  In a freeform system, you'd obtain maximum DPS by investing condition damage until you reach the breakpoint, then investing the remaining stats evenly into expertise and condition damage.  Though we don't have a freeform system, so the best thing to do is equip Viper Gear (which has more total stats) until you reach the condition duration cap for your desired condition, then replace the remaining pieces with sinister.  

So first they say 'I'm the problem' which sounds really POLITE and then proceed to explain how much factual info in this?...... Breakpoints got balancing CD/EXP numbers in it.... freeform talk..... saying how we don't have freeform anyway.... says Viper is better and to then get some Sinister after because..... hmm..... There's a lack of explaining why the breakpoint should work besides 'IT'S BALANCED NUMBERS BECAUSE THEY ARE.' This clearly must be the FIRST time they reference a breakpoint without info to explain the breakpoint right?.....

 

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

There's a breakpoint.  It's listed here.

...... ohhh.
 

It's not your job to handle the posts of other people. Salt can say what he wants and if I reply to him I reply to him.
Saying I,

42 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

started ranting incorrectly and potentially incoherently.

and not quoting anything doesn't prove the point.

Didn't dispute the wiki, though I don't know why I started with 'Problem' but did proceed to talk about some numbers with an 'IF' to look for a reply with 'yes or no' to diminishing returns being a thing. Didn't get that answer though.

5 hours ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

If Condition Damage has a degrading scaling effect to it

The second wiki link doesn't 'clear misunderstandings' since the only explanation of the breakpoint I was given was.... well.... the 'it works because the numbers said so and also freeform....' The second link helped by being the only actual explanation of breakpoint besides the mentioning of breakpoint being a 'something that has numbers which means you should use Viper gear.'

 

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

used all caps to show how you didn't believe other posters here.

 

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

using all caps to ask for more information.

I'd say this is flip-flopping but it's more of a 'side-flopping'. Considering I'd ask for a reply and then have to repeat myself, adding CAPS kinda gives the NOTABLE EFFECT that would be nice to have someone PAY ATTENTION TO when they OVERLOOK IT THE FIRST TIME.

 

There's not really a,

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

we tried to help

when you're saying,

 

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

that Salt Mode tends to be a bit abrasive I was actually trying to give you access to all of the information you needed

All you did was link two wiki pages, assume I didn't understand Condition Duration while it looks like you missed the part where numbers were displayed with the difference in total damage between 180 of Expertise and Condition Damage, which lead to the mentioning of PvP difference (I don't know why PvP was getting brought up) between both stat boosts, which YOU mistook as 'MY lack of understanding' when it was actually YOUR lack of not keeping up with the context that was presented beforehand.

I appreciate the people who ACTUALLY helped. unless you didn't read the post right about yours

3 hours ago, HuskyKurai.7324 said:

1 and done comment with actual benefits,

Salt and Logos are the only two who had the actual information I was asking for. Yes, Salt had some thing's I wasn't after but they helped in the end. Despite what you may think tossing a couple links may do, it's on par with tossing a class build at someone and simply saying 'use this' though thinking about it, that kinda matches the same logic as the 'this is a breakpoint and that's the only explanation it needs'.

If I have more posts to make down the road, please don't comment on them. I don't want information that is not related to the post I make.