Could the removal of initiative make the Thief more interesting and easier to balance? + Some ideas

[Bachi.3980]

I wonder how much the Thief initiative system is making the class hard to balance (to me it seems really hard). Moreover, I feel like the intiative system removes a lot of diversity for traits and interesting mechanics. If there are fundamental problems with this initiative design, why not do a rework? I got some ideas, but it is not a really thought out rework. Please consider it like a brainstorming.

For the weapon skills, we could have a system based on charges that reload on a cooldown (different cooldowns for each skill). That way we could still spam to some extent and keep the flexibility to react to different situations spontaneously. For example, set 1-2 charges for each weapon skill and maybe 3 charges for the dual wield attacks. Maybe a system like that would be easier to balance since Anet could tweak the number of charges and cooldown for each weapon skill. Then we could also think about traits that could get you some charges faster with steal, or other ways to generate charges.

I have another idea that could be used along or separately. Steal is the Thief's class mechanic but IMO it does not feel really impactful (for core and daredevil at least) and is usually niche or underwhelming for the stolen skills. Extending what Steal currently does, it could also give charges (max 3) for a class mechanic shadowstep (and/or other utilities?), bind to F keys: F3 could consume 1 charge for a 300 range shadowstep, F4 2 charges for a 700 range, F5 for a 1100 range. I do not think it would be OP depending on the Steal CD and would give more ways to reposition when playing ranged and using steal to counterbalance some of that forced melee range even if we have deadeye for that and daredevil's long dash. This could also open more ways to use the current traits linked to shadowstepping (endurance, heal, ...). I think it is also interesting to have different choices like "Do I want to use multiple 300 range shadowsteps to heal more, confuse the opponent, reposition, or get away by using one longer shadowstep?).

These ideas could fix the issue of the alacrity specter having to spam their utilities off cooldown with no regards to the situation: the alacrity could be put on these shadowsteps and/or on weapon skills since we would not be able to spam only 1 skill to generate tons of alacrity.

There are a lot of interactions I did not consider while thinking about that but it was fun wondering what a Thief could look like without this initative system.

Do you actually like the initiative system? What would you like to have instead if it were removed? I am looking forward to reading your feedback and ideas.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Bachi.3980
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[ASP.8093]

32 minutes ago, Bachi.3980 said:

These ideas could fix the issue of the alacrity specter having to spam their utilities off cooldown with no regards to the situation: the alacrity could be put on these shadowsteps and/or on weapon skills since we would not be able to spam only 1 skill to generate tons of alacrity.

I feel like utilities like "apply a bunch of conditions to the enemy" or "apply a bunch of boons to your party" are always gonna be used on cooldown in PvE, that's sorta how the game works: cast damaging skills off cooldown for peak DPS, spam boons for 100% uptime on all the boons you can get (with a rare "just in time" application of Aegis, Protection, or Stability).

The whole "just cast all your skills as fast as you can to trigger your one support trait that applies Quickness/Alac" is also a design problem that basically every spec has. With the possible exception of Firebrand. Firebrand. 😕

[Bachi.3980]

2 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

The whole "just cast all your skills as fast as you can to trigger your one support trait that applies Quickness/Alac" is also a design problem that basically every spec has. With the possible exception of Firebrand. Firebrand. 😕

It would be nice to have some improvements about that for every class. It is a bit sad to use utilities for a trait effect and barely for the utility effect 😞

Edited October 6, 2022 by Bachi.3980
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[kash.9213]

Removing Initiative would make thief less interesting. I don't get your take that it removes trait diversity and interesting mechanics.

If you're going to switch to ammo charges instead, whatever problems of frequency or momentum you have with thieves having Initiative doesn't get dealt with. 

After even two attempts, spending more Initiative on a skill is counter to your effort and you'll gas out, there's no reason to regulate Initiative further. 

Initiative itself isn't problematic for balancing but it's more quantifiable in strait up numbers and so it's an easy option for devs. If we moved to an ammo system, at some point you'd see those ammo charges reduced to a useable amount that would make you ask why we ever moved away from Initiative in the first place.

Edited October 6, 2022 by kash.9213

[Bachi.3980]

I think initiative prevents Anet to put some types of trait or effect on weapon skills. If a weapon skill has a really strong effect, there is the risk of Thieves spamming it depending on situations (example: CCs). Of course they can increase the initiative cost to lower the spammability of a skill (as they did), but then you use a skill twice and can only do AA for some time. IMO this part of resource management is not the most fun (more about that later).

With another type of system that does not use a shared resource, maybe they could put stronger and/or more interesting effects on some weapon skills, without the risk of it being spammable and without the inconvenience above.

If we had ammo/charges for the weapon skills, having 2 good damage abilities (with different boons and effects for example) on one set of weapons would not be irrelevant and rotations could use both. In the current situation, we only spam the best skills. Thief usually feels like "one situation = one skill to spam" to me.
For example: power daredevil which mostly use skill #2 spam for damage. The ammo system could force rotations to use multiple skills, not only the #2. The damage for the other skills would have to be tweaked accordingly but I think rotations would be more interesting if different skills were used.

Ammo also makes reacting to situations better. Let's say you play double pistols and spam unload until your initiative runs out but then you need a quick CC, you would not be able to do a headshot without waiting for your initiative to regenerate. Of course you can use quick pockets to help with that and better resource management, but the latter needs good knowledge of the encouters in PvE to know when to keep your initiative and when to use it. With ammo there will still be resource management (keep some ammo on the CC skill in case you want to be safer, keep ammo for burst phases), while potentially promoting more reactive gameplay for unexpected situations.

Overall, it seems to me that Anet would have more room and flexibility (for balance and mechanics) if each weapon skill had its own resource (ammo/charges) instead of a shared one (initiative). Decoupling things should make tweaks and balancing easier. The skill floor could be lowered a bit with an arguably simpler resource management (it will not punish less experienced players, while still providing the possibility to optimize your use of ammo if you have good knowledge of the encounters), while increasing the skill ceiling with the possibility of more complex rotations, leading to a more diverse gameplay.

[itspomf.9523]

This honestly feels like making the argument that they need to get rid of Energy from Revenant, because of ... whatever.

So no, no I don't feel that initiative needs to go away.  It's what makes Thief unique and reactive in addition to its already frenetic playstyle.  Taking that away just leaves you with a half-baked profession.

And ammo charges were a bad design from the start and their poor implementation on Bladesworn quite literally forced its elite to be a "reload," simply because the whole thing falls to pieces if it runs out of ammo -- exactly like a Thief with no Initiative.  Difference is, we've already got our own Tactical Reload.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

I do not like the idea of getting rid of initiative. Having a recharge system would just mean having you press things off of CD anyways so it wouldn't feel any different from using a different class.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

Besides initiative, one problem thieves face is boring rotations with spamming the same skills over and over. I feel like whatever solution needs to happen it needs to break that pattern.

My guild leader mentioned a concept from GW1 to me. It has some pros and cons, but what if whatever balance that was applied encouraged thieves to use different skills in order for PvE content. It could be applied to PvP/WvW, but to a lesser degree since CC might disrupt the flow of things.

Edited October 7, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415
clarity

[Bachi.3980]

11 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

This honestly feels like making the argument that they need to get rid of Energy from Revenant, because of ... whatever.

So no, no I don't feel that initiative needs to go away.  It's what makes Thief unique and reactive in addition to its already frenetic playstyle.  Taking that away just leaves you with a half-baked profession.

And ammo charges were a bad design from the start and their poor implementation on Bladesworn quite literally forced its elite to be a "reload," simply because the whole thing falls to pieces if it runs out of ammo -- exactly like a Thief with no Initiative.  Difference is, we've already got our own Tactical Reload.

I do not know Revenant a lot but I think it is quite different. You have a shared resource (energy) but you use it for skills that are channeled and/or have a CD. You do not spam like a Thief (I think?). And I have not played Bladesworn but maybe the problem lies in the implementation and not the idea.

An ammo system is only an idea to make the Thief feel less spammy (and probably help with balancing and rotation diversity) but there are other ways to do so like ZeroTheRuler.7415 said.

[Emolesbian.3170]

8 hours ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

[...]

My guild leader mentioned a concept from GW1 to me. It has some pros and cons, but what if whatever balance that was applied encouraged thieves to use different skills in order for PvE content. [...]

Hmmm...Moebius Strike my love 💚.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

6 hours ago, Emolesbian.3170 said:

Hmmm...Moebius Strike my love 💚.

One of the concepts he mentioned was Lead Attacks except he added some ideas of his own to make it fit more to the initiative system. What if weapon skill 2 + 3 = skill 2 + skill 3 dmg  as expected, but that would also trigger + X damage. This means a bigger pool of initiative would do X damage in a chain attack. It might make it easier to lower or balance some of the initiative costs along side skill damage while at the same time making rotations less boring.

Edited October 7, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Emolesbian.3170]

27 minutes ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

[...]

Oh I got it 100%. I just jumped on the occasion to talk about my sweetheart 💚.

 

I love this idea, even rough, but I think Thief mechanic is already firmly planted in the game for Anet to forecast such a deep rework.

 

Plus if, by any chance, this lovely dream comes true, it'll also start another drama: other classes will ask for the same treatment. I don't say they wouldn't be right to do so, they would because as my granny said when I was a kid:

 

"If you plan give to your friend a cookie, don't forget to bring the whole box. Or two boxes we never know."

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Emolesbian.3170

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

29 minutes ago, Emolesbian.3170 said:

Oh I got it 100%. I just jumped on the occasion to talk about my sweetheart 💚.

 

I love this idea, even rough, but I think Thief mechanic is already firmly planted in the game for Anet to forecast such a deep rework.

 

Plus if, by any chance, this lovely dream comes true, it'll also start another drama: other classes will ask for the same treatment. I don't say they wouldn't be right to do so, they would because as my granny said when I was a kid:

 

"If you plan give to your friend a cookie, don't forget to bring the whole box. Or two boxes we never know."

 

Ah, haha, I see :D.

XD true, but initiative needs special care like this whereas individual cooldown skills are easy to balance. Anyhow, yeah it's a dream.

What if it were only a few skills at the start?

Edited October 7, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Emolesbian.3170]

16 minutes ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

Ah, haha, I see :D.

XD true, but initiative needs special care like this whereas individual cooldown skills are easy to balance. Anyhow, yeah it's a dream.

What if it were only a few skills at the start?

 

Well, it's up to Anet to decide but yes. At least two for obvious reasons. But even if I understand your purpose with such a suggestion to avoid disruption and its legit, it'd be better to get a full kit ready to try out.

 

That's why...and hear me and my predecessors Anet...it'd be better if we had a PUBLIC TEST REALM HUH ?....(jk, 💚u 😁)

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Could the removal of initiative make the Thief more interesting and easier to balance?

 

No.

[Eleandra.4859]

I do not think that the concept of initiative is spammy at all, I have read this statement from some sources but I believe that people following that narrative do not really think this through:

1. It introduces a global cool down on all skills with a step size < 1. What you activate at t_n affects what you can activate at t_n+1. This is a much more challenging and skill intensive game play compared to all other classes. (example: If I want to be able to head shot someone in 3 seconds to prevent a cast, I have to plan the damage I do NOW such that I will have the necessary initiative and therefore I have to NOT spam skills). This is much easier in CD based classes, For them I can use all my skills independently from each other.
2. All classes always have "the most efficient skill for any given time" for CD based classes this is reflected by the order of skills cast. It is simply the order of efficiency in a descending order (with some side constraints), I do not see any difference between casting Thief skill 2 *2 and pressing two different keys for e.g. Necromancer, especially because of 1.
3. Thief shares initiative between weapon sets, that makes thief a class that does put weapon swap into its rotation simply to access to another set of cool downs (because it makes no sense to swap to a weapon set if you cannot executes skills due to an empty initiative pool). This is an extremely personal reason because I HATE the way other classes, in the middle of the fight just sheath their weapon and pull out another one, this makes no sense to me. Thief uses their weapons for specific reasons and switches based on the scenario they encounter. Weapon switch for thief is MEANINGFUL, for most other classes it is just a second resource pool.

All this makes thief the least spammy class in the game, because you have to be aware what you will have to do in a few seconds, you have to be aware if you want to be stuck with another weapon set with different characteristics for the next 9 seconds (I am aware that some builds use weapon swatch to gain initiative but my point stands generally), because you will not be able to simply go on casting by switching, you have to make sure you actively manage your resources which no other class dopes (not even Revenant I believe - most just cast until empty then switch legends rinse and repeat - but I have to admit that I cannot play Revenant so this might be utter bullkitten).

 

If Arenanet finds the initiative system hard to balance they should start working at their competence to balance the game instead of us discussing how the game can be dumbed down to a level of their incompetence.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Eleandra.4859
wording; spelling

[Bachi.3980]

2 hours ago, Eleandra.4859 said:

I do not think that the concept of initiative is spammy at all, I have read this statement from some sources but I believe that people following that narrative do not really think this through:

1. It introduces a global cool down on all skills with a step size < 1. What you activate at t_n affects what you can activate at t_n+1. This is a much more challenging and skill intensive game play compared to all other classes. (example: If I want to be able to head shot someone in 3 seconds to prevent a cast, I have to plan the damage I do NOW such that I will have the necessary initiative and therefore I have to NOT spam skills). This is much easier in CD based classes, For them I can use all my skills independently from each other.
2. All classes always have "the most efficient skill for any given time" for CD based classes this is reflected by the order of skills cast. It is simply the order of efficiency in a descending order (with some side constraints), I do not see any difference between casting Thief skill 2 *2 and pressing two different keys for e.g. Necromancer, especially because of 1.
3. Thief shares initiative between weapon sets, that makes thief a class that does put weapon swap into its rotation simply to access to another set of cool downs (because it makes no sense to swap to a weapon set if you cannot executes skills due to an empty initiative pool). This is an extremely personal reason because I HATE the way other classes, in the middle of the fight just sheath their weapon and pull out another one, this makes no sense to me. Thief uses their weapons for specific reasons and switches based on the scenario they encounter. Weapon switch for thief is MEANINGFUL, for most other classes it is just a second resource pool.

All this makes thief the least spammy class in the game, because you have to be aware what you will have to do in a few seconds, you have to be aware if you want to be stuck with another weapon set with different characteristics for the next 9 seconds (I am aware that some builds use weapon swatch to gain initiative but my point stands generally), because you will not be able to simply go on casting by switching, you have to make sure you actively manage your resources which no other class dopes (not even Revenant I believe - most just cast until empty then switch legends rinse and repeat - but I have to admit that I cannot play Revenant so this might be utter bullkitten).

 

If Arenanet finds the initiative system hard to balance they should start working at their competence to balance the game instead of us discussing how the game can be dumbed down to a level of their incompetence.

You make great points! I really like the way the weapon swap is meaningful, I completely forgot to think about that.

I still think Thief is a bit spammy but I guess it is a common issue among all classes (spamming one damage ability vs spamming off CD).

Anyway, I love Thief and I hope this class will get some love on the next balance patch to make it even more fun to play.

[Noko Anon.9154]

15 minutes ago, Bachi.3980 said:

I still think Thief is a bit spammy but I guess it is a common issue among all classes (spamming one damage ability vs spamming off CD).

Thief has the potential to be spammy, which has a trade-off built into it that was previously mentioned. Every weapon a thief uses shares the same "cooldown" because of initiative. Some builds can make the most of spam; deadeye, in particular, can make the most of spam with Maleficent Seven, which makes sense mechanically. You're kneeling, and you want to kill whatever it is you're focusing from 1,500 away before they get to you. Does this upset other players competitively? Well, yeah. It's not "fair", to them. Yet they don't seem to have any problems with deadeyes when they're totally out of initiative, they themselves survived the first burst by dodging the very clear killer shot and used their own abilities to stop the incoming ranged damage, and the deadeye's escape tools are all on cooldown. Deadeye plays extremely straight-forward, and a failure to adapt is the problem, not anything with the profession itself. If one were to spam (again in PvP) something like Dagger 2 on a daredevil build, even with all of its dodges and escape tools, it's going to get devoured alive by anyone else in the game because it never kept its initiative to time Pistol 4 or 5 to prevent healing or avoid damage.

Meanwhile, no one really seems to mind that deadeye is uniquely equipped to kite bosses in Fractals and Raids, sharing a role with mirages who can also function as tanks, and tempests who can also heal, with both of them providing alacrity, which deadeye lacks. Why is that?

[Zacchary.6183]

On 10/6/2022 at 10:59 PM, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

Besides initiative, one problem thieves face is boring rotations with spamming the same skills over and over. I feel like whatever solution needs to happen it needs to break that pattern.

My guild leader mentioned a concept from GW1 to me. It has some pros and cons, but what if whatever balance that was applied encouraged thieves to use different skills in order for PvE content. It could be applied to PvP/WvW, but to a lesser degree since CC might disrupt the flow of things.

Someone designed an Assassin elite spec based on the GW1 class. I thought it was a nice idea, but its still pretty complex. The flow they proposed was MH non-autoattack (lead) into an OH attack which would generate a third attack with F2 or something like it.

I also proposed an idea where weapon skills could be used without initiative and have reduced effectiveness, but would be put on a short cooldown that would immediately refresh once initiative costs could be paid.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Zacchary.6183

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

57 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Someone designed an Assassin elite spec based on the GW1 class. I thought it was a nice idea, but its still pretty complex. The flow they proposed was MH non-autoattack (lead) into an OH attack which would generate a third attack with F2 or something like it.

I also proposed an idea where weapon skills could be used without initiative and have reduced effectiveness, but would be put on a short cooldown that would immediately refresh once initiative costs could be paid.

What if it were more simple than that?

On 10/7/2022 at 10:27 AM, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

One of the concepts he mentioned was Lead Attacks except he added some ideas of his own to make it fit more to the initiative system. What if weapon skill 2 + 3 = skill 2 + skill 3 dmg  as expected, but that would also trigger + X damage. This means a bigger pool of initiative would do X damage in a chain attack. It might make it easier to lower or balance some of the initiative costs along side skill damage while at the same time making rotations less boring.