The Half Efficiency of Power(pve)

[Lily.1935]

Anyone who's played necromancer for an extended period of time or have looked at the necromancer's specializations will see that many of the traits necromancer requires to do damage have effectiveness only in shroud. This is especially true on power builds while Condition builds have this as well, its negligible and doesn't negatively impact their damage. When we look at power builds on the other hand we see a good number of their most effective traits only work while they're in shroud. And we also see that some of the utility skills they might rely on which could give them a boost only work outside of shroud. So in both cases the necromancer loses out on a lot of potential power regardless of what side of they're on. And let me show you what I mean.

The Pattern in trait design and skill use.

Reaper's Onslaught and Death Perception are both the two defining traits of what makes power reaper function. Yet when we look at them we see that Reaper's Onslaught only functions while in shroud and Death Perception has half of its function in shroud. This means that outside of shroud Reaper and even Harbinger to a lesser extent is relying on fewer boosts to get the same job done. And its not like the reaper can maintain that shroud permanently or as long as possible because it also will lose damage due to Soul Barbs.
But, this 50% efficiency doesn't end at just those two traits either. We also see it with skills as well. Signets are especially impacted by this and there's a trait attempting to fix the issue which it doesn't do a great job at. Anything you gain from a signet should be divided by half because you wont gain its benefits while you're in shroud. So some of the damage boosting signets which have been taken in the past like Vampirism and Spite are less effective. Signet of spite is especially a good example of this as it gives 180 power. If you account for how you should be in shroud 50% of your combat time its closer to giving you 90 power which is far worse than any signet in the game. Signets aren't the only skills that are affected though. Wells also suffer from this since when you use them there will be moments when you're out of shroud that they deal lower damage than they otherwise could.
This design of the power build seems to be built in even deeper into their kit as well since these traits and skills aren't the only way necromancer is forced to deal with this efficiency loss. Close to Death follows the same pattern without even being related to shroud.
There are actually far more traits which only function while in shroud, or function better in shroud but I wont go into them here, but note that the pattern persists beyond just what I've shown.

Is this a problem?
Although I'm pointing this out it isn't a problem on its own. There are issues which have come up because of this though. This makes some skills like signets less desirable and the play pattern can feel a bit unrewarding when we compare it to other power specs on other classes. Although that's a subjective opinion and not an objective opinion. The major issues we begin to see are in that the traits are back loaded but tend to be balanced with the same restrictions in power budget like any other profession. This has made power builds like Power reaper and Power Harbinger significantly weaker than any other power build in the game. Couple this with the lack of universal boosting traits and you end up with weak builds that have no option to improve.

What's the Solution?
There isn't Really a clean solution to this issue since it is compounded by multiple problems. There isn't a problem with it working like this but it needs to compensation to make up for this imbalance.
There are some ideas which have been floated around for a while that could alleviate some of the issues, but Necromancer should be rewarded for entering shroud. One solution is to allow Reaper, harbinger and core necromancer access to their utility skills while in shroud. Scourge has access to this and although it doesn't have a viable power build in PvE if it had similar traits to reaper that boost strike damage scourge would probably blow Reaper out of the water in terms of Damage because these weaknesses are dampened on that elite spec. And that somewhat has to do with having access to their entire kit at all times.
Another Solution would be to Part of the problem is to buff Signets significantly. If these power specs can't get as much power in shroud making sure the signets can make up for some of that lost efficiency is one such method.
Another post of mine here actually addresses this issue by using a trait to allow for the necromancer to benefit from these traits while outside of shroud for a short time. Since the trait bonuses are balanced in line with similar traits from other specializations this shouldn't be too much of an issue, although a trait like this for necromancer would make it far superior in spite to any other option, so a tradeoff would be required for taking it, such as moderate health loss while its active.
None of these solutions are perfect and the Issue to this problem as I said isn't the biggest issue, just a point of discussion.

Why aren't Condition builds also effected by this?
In Short, they are. The difference is that they're not in the same way and the transition from out of shroud to in shroud is actually a lot smoother. Take Plague Sending for example, although this trait only triggers when you enter shroud, its condition transfer actually has a persistent damage boost because of how conditions work. Condition by their damage over time nature persist regardless of what state the necromancer is in. Although Shroud, like Reaper's shroud and Harbinger Shroud have a damage burst when on condi builds the work you put in during that time continues after you've dropped shroud. This isn't the case with power because of the nature of how these two damage types differ.
Scourge is an outlier in this since they're not at effected by this to the same extend. The traits like Dhuumfire or Unyielding Blast which normally would be locked behind a shroud like they are on every other elite specialization and core, scourge has access to them 100% of the time.
With this in mind it actually tends to make the Condition builds on necromancer a more enjoyable experience than the power builds. Although that's my subjective opinion on this.

Are the Developers aware of this?
Yes! We've already started to see the developers begin to shift the design of necromancer into more of gaining passive benefits for both in and out of shroud play since this dance is quite important. Harbinger's entire design seems to be conscious of this fact even if the implementation is a bit sloppy. Every trait in Harbinger that influences your shroud effectiveness has a passive benefit outside of shroud as well. We've also seen them move away from this with some trait designs in the opposite direction too. Lingering Curse used to only give condition damage while you were wielding a scepter. now the condition damage is universal. So this issue has already been solved on condition builds which needed less work to make it work.

Even as I bring this issue to everyone's attention and put a spot light on it, I still want to say that the pay off from entering shroud should still exist. I Do think the design is valuable for the game and does lead to a style of play people like. The reason I bring it up is because the disparity between in shroud and out of shroud doesn't have the proper balance between them. I do think Condition builds have a better power budget in this regard and power needs a bit more work in this department.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

The death perception change was one of the worst changes to necromancer, luckily the dev responsible is no longer with the company. It was made becauce this dev had a vendetta again complicated play styles and generally wanted to dumb down the game, ie his crown jewel pmech.  This is why they audaciously said the death perception change was a buff while reaper has been dumpstered.

Shroud dancing should always be more rewarding than sitting in or out of shroud. Being in shroud should feel better than being out of shroud because you are spending a resource to be in it.  Long story short, reaper felt better to play in the past, they change should be reverted.

[Warscythes.9307]

2 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

The death perception change was one of the worst changes to necromancer, luckily the dev responsible is no longer with the company. It was made becauce this dev had a vendetta again complicated play styles and generally wanted to dumb down the game, ie his crown jewel pmech.  This is why they audaciously said the death perception change was a buff while reaper has been dumpstered.

Shroud dancing should always be more rewarding than sitting in or out of shroud. Being in shroud should feel better than being out of shroud because you are spending a resource to be in it.  Long story short, reaper felt better to play in the past, they change should be reverted.

The rotation didn't change, soul barb is still a thing. Staff is a viable weapon but you still shroud dance over all.

 

@OP

 

The reason signet suck is because the necro signets are generally terrible with the exception of plague signet. Spite signet is a literal power stick. Properly balancing it would be giving it a better active.

 

I don't think your idea will do much, what are you getting in shroud vs out of shroud? Ferocity and crit damage, aka you do more damage. It then becomes a numbers game comparing to close to death. Unless the constant damage boost is better than close to death, it won't be taken because generally execute damage is more desirable. This won't have any sense of playstyle change in general.

 

I think you are thinking too hard on this. Passive from signets not working in shroud at most will be a small feels bad, you are never going to feel this in actual combat. They already have the ability of having signet passives working in shroud with signet of suffering. Slap that in somewhere, actually make the signets useful like the mech ones and is golden.

 

In fact I am going to argue having stats better in shroud both make sense thematically and that it improves the rotation, speaking from power reaper prospective. Currently you slap down as many aoe as you can and then go in shroud so the aoes tick with the shroud bonuses. Without it, you are going to use the wells on a priority system than anything else like most other professions. This creates a slightly different gameplay which I believe is good for the game in general.

 

tl;dr: Bonus only in shroud is fine, rework most signets, maybe make signet passive work in shroud. Having the shroud bonus work outside of shroud may make the game loop worse, at least for power reaper.

 

[Asum.4960]

Starting with maybe the most controversial take, I feel like no Utility access is kind of akin to the outdated Elite Specialization drawbacks to be removed - except that Necro has suffered from it's since Core. 

At this point it's just a relic of "Transformation" skills, like Plague, which Anet has since largely moved away from or forgotten. 

So much on Necro over the years has been justified with "but the second Health bar", but that argument has gotten more and more holes - not least of all Harbinger Shroud, which for all intents and purposes functions like Celestial Avatar or Photon Forge as simply a Skill Bar replacement, which in turn don't lose Utility access. 

 

Secondly, Necromancer core weapons just need a desperate look at - especially the power options. These skill sets genuinely felt largely outdated to me on launch over 10 years ago compared to what other profession's weapons offer, and it's only gotten worse comparatively since. 

Boosting some coefficients like what was done for Staff certainly is a welcome band-aid I'd like to see on more Necro weapons, but even that can only carry so far. 

Dagger MH, Axe, Warhorn and Focus just need a major tune up, even mechanically. One doesn't have to look far for inspiration on how to improve them, there are 8 other professions with almost universally more fun, engaging and functional weapon skill sets.

Staff even after the changes is still pretty questionable in PvE, and despite it's prominence in PvP modes, just bland mechanically. 

But even on the Condi side with Scepter, and Dagger OH I'd classify them as okay at best, and the former even only with a dedicated Trait. 

It's pretty frustrating to have pushed for Weapon improvements since a good 8-9 years, and to only see some Staff coefficient increases after 10 years (and years and years of creeping Axe 2 buffs, which for a single target skill with no cleave or pierce or anything still isn't enough to make the weapon appealing, especially considering the utter uselessness of it's AA and even Axe 3 in PvE - how can one take 10+ years to buff a weapon 10+ times and still have it be bad), while other Weapons such as Warhorn with Locust Swarm and Focus with Soul Grasp (formerly Reaper's Touch) have actively gotten worse since their already lacklustre 2012 versions. 

The lack of actually meaningful game updates in this regard is just genuinely sad.

 

Thirdly on the power front, as we also discussed in that other thread, the Spite Master and Grandmaster minors especially just need a rework. Once again these were Traits that felt bad 10 years ago, and time hasn't been kind to them. 

Things like 25% increased damage while downed is just a bad joke at this point.

 

Now I do think you make valid points here, but at the end of the day we can only talk or fan design around a broken foundation for so long.

I don't think Traits like Death Perception having additional benefits in Shroud (which therefor in essence only work at ~50% efficiency) is really a problem - or why out of Shroud usually feels so down right boring and bland. 

15% extra Critical Damage out of Shroud, or gaining 180 extra Power (without band-aid Signet Trait) in Shroud and the like would help to elevate Power Builds on Necromancer, sure - but it's not the crux of the issue of why these builds have always been trailing behind, both in effectiveness as well as fun and flow.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Lily.1935]

3 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

The rotation didn't change, soul barb is still a thing. Staff is a viable weapon but you still shroud dance over all.

 

@OP

 

The reason signet suck is because the necro signets are generally terrible with the exception of plague signet. Spite signet is a literal power stick. Properly balancing it would be giving it a better active.

 

I don't think your idea will do much, what are you getting in shroud vs out of shroud? Ferocity and crit damage, aka you do more damage. It then becomes a numbers game comparing to close to death. Unless the constant damage boost is better than close to death, it won't be taken because generally execute damage is more desirable. This won't have any sense of playstyle change in general.

 

I think you are thinking too hard on this. Passive from signets not working in shroud at most will be a small feels bad, you are never going to feel this in actual combat. They already have the ability of having signet passives working in shroud with signet of suffering. Slap that in somewhere, actually make the signets useful like the mech ones and is golden.

 

In fact I am going to argue having stats better in shroud both make sense thematically and that it improves the rotation, speaking from power reaper prospective. Currently you slap down as many aoe as you can and then go in shroud so the aoes tick with the shroud bonuses. Without it, you are going to use the wells on a priority system than anything else like most other professions. This creates a slightly different gameplay which I believe is good for the game in general.

 

tl;dr: Bonus only in shroud is fine, rework most signets, maybe make signet passive work in shroud. Having the shroud bonus work outside of shroud may make the game loop worse, at least for power reaper.

 

I'm not sure how well plague signet does in pvp. But it seems like it would be far worse than spectral walk. At least that's my suspicion. However, the post is primarily about PvE and plague signet is one of the worst if not the worst. The best signet is Signet of Undeath in PvE. This signet has no replacement and is what makes scourge viable. It has fantastic utility and sustains life force better than any other skill. The second best would be Signet of Vampirism. Its passive damage isn't a lot but it is very slightly stronger damage than blood fiend. Although both skills still have use and I personally think blood fiend is better. But that's a different discussion. Signet of Spite is fine but weak. Both on its active side and its passive side because of what I've stated above. Signet of the locus is strong in some situations. It strips boons and heals for quite a bit. But its healing isn't often needed. Overall I agree that Signets could use some work, the primary flaw with signets is that you're only gaining their passive benefits half of the time. Which Utility in shroud would solve this issue.

Moving the signets trait is an interesting idea, but that more likely than not will do little to make them useful. And its not a "Feels bad" moment, it is actually efficiency loss.

Close to death is a 10% damage boost when we account for the full fight. When we account for the whole fight its less effective than something like Big boomer which has higher effective damage and provides some healing. What my suggestion gives is significantly more than that. With 100% crit chance which reaper wants regardless they have 15% bonus crit damage which is cumulative damage on top of 300 ferocity. at almost all times. When I was calculating damage reaper's shroud had something like 20-25% higher damage than out of shroud. This could potentially be a 20% damage increase for the full fight as opposed to 10%. I'd have to run the numbers again, but the gains are extremely significant. gaining all this extra power is fairly extreme. My primary concern is that its too powerful with other changes I want in the future.

For your 3rd point, since you broke up your signet points, that's one point, When you're talking about how it feels, i'd suggest reading my whole post. Because if you had you wouldn't make the statement about the balance between in and out of shroud. Because I said that being in shroud should be stronger. I also mentioned that the disparity between the two is too high. I believe it should be, but not to the extent power is now and Arena net recognize this as an issue. I don't want to address the same points I've already mentioned in my post, so please actually read what I have to say.

 

[Warscythes.9307]

I am kind of tired so I am not going to format too hard on this. Just let me know if I missed something.

 

1. PvE and plague signet is one of the worst if not the worst and general signet blah blah.

Currently yes, but I am actually going to argue this is by design one of the best. Why is that? Because this signet used to have a niche use in condi heavy fights in PvE. Before when it used to transfer literally every single condition, you would purposely take a sloth shake or stand in the poison rain in matt, transfer it back for massive damage. This created a very different gameplay in certain fights which I believe is the best you can ask for an utility skill. That is which is not good in every encounter but is very very good at a few very places. Of course after the nerf to 5 stacks, you don't see it anywhere, but I think is easy to consider reverting some of the nerfs, maybe to 10 or 15 I dunno.

 

I agree on your analysis on the effectiveness of signets in general, but for this topic specifically I was more thinking skill design. Plague signet for me personally is better than signet of undeath because signet of undeath is simply too widely appealing. Ideally I want different fights have different utilities.

 

I think signet of spite is not fine, in fact I think signet of spite is the literal worst signet for necro. Yes is decent because passive +180 power is good, but because is good enough that it takes an utility slot but the active is bad enough that you would never ever use it, so that slot is effectively gone. I heavily dislike this sort of design and this is one of those things anet need to rework.

 

I disagree with your analysis that signet's biggest flaw is that they are only passive half the time. I think it's biggest flaw is that they are just bad in general. I think they just need to rework most of them completely, because otherwise you are just tacking on stats with no change in gameplay. For example if signet of spite now works in shroud for free, would it make power necros better? Yes. Does it literally change anything about the gameplay? Rotation? Niches? No, it just do more damage but the utility slot is still locked. I'd rather they give it a better active so I can use it on the occasion. 

 

tl;dr: Is the passive not working in shroud not good? Yes. Do I think is the main flaw? No. I think the main flaw is that most of them are awful, not exactly in efficiency but rather in design.

 

I am just going to make another post, I just rambled and now this looks to be a lot.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Lily.1935]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Starting with maybe the most controversial take, I feel like no Utility access is kind of akin to the outdated Elite Specialization drawbacks to be removed - except that Necro has suffered from it's since Core. 

At this point it's just a relic of "Transformation" skills, like Plague, which Anet has since largely moved away from or forgotten. 

I actually agree. I have long since been an advocate of giving necromancer access to utility in shroud.
 

Quote

So much on Necro over the years has been justified with "but the second Health bar", but that argument has gotten more and more holes - not least of all Harbinger Shroud, which for all intents and purposes functions like Celestial Avatar or Photon Forge as simply a Skill Bar replacement, which in turn don't lose Utility access.

This argument has been in place to justify everything about the necromancer being so bad for so long. Why can't we have damage boosts? second health bar. Why can't we have utility in shroud? Second health bar. Why can't we heal in shroud? Second health bar. Why are our weapons so weak? Second health bar. Literally, everything that has made the necromancer objectively the worst class in pve from Guild Wars 2 launch to right before the Path of Fire launch this was the justification. Only after scourge was released did they begin to relax this and it took several more years for necromancer to finally be considered strong and that was due to the torment changes coupled with the fact that scourge doesn't have as much baggage as reaper, core and now harbinger.

With the introduction of Specter which has a shroud, all of the modifiers from core, support a second health bar and more, the argument against the necromancer grows flimsier and flimsier

Quote

Secondly, Necromancer core weapons just need a desperate look at - especially the power options. These skill sets genuinely felt largely outdated to me on launch over 10 years ago compared to what other profession's weapons offer, and it's only gotten worse comparatively since. 

Boosting some coefficients like what was done for Staff certainly is a welcome band-aid I'd like to see on more Necro weapons, but even that can only carry so far. 

Dagger MH, Axe, Warhorn and Focus just need a major tune up, even mechanically. One doesn't have to look far for inspiration on how to improve them, there are 8 other professions with almost universally more fun, engaging and functional weapon skill sets.

Staff even after the changes is still pretty questionable in PvE, and despite it's prominence in PvP modes, just bland mechanically. 

But even on the Condi side with Scepter, and Dagger OF I'd classify them as okay at best, and the former even only with a dedicated Trait. 

It's pretty frustrating to have pushed for Weapon improvements since a good 8-9 years, and to only see some Staff coefficient increases after 10 years, while other Weapons such as Warhorn with Locust Swarm and Focus with Soul Grasp (formerly Reaper's Touch) have actively gotten worse since their already lacklustre 2012 versions. 

The lack of game updates in this regard is just genuinely sad.

I agree. many of the weapons do need some updates. I think Staff is in a decent spot at the moment and other weapons should be looked at more deeply. I think MH Dagger and Axe are the biggest issues in this regard because their skills are just a bit limp all things considered. There are dozens of fixes that could work but these ones are what will make or break power builds for the future that don't involve reaper.

As for the Off Hand weapons, Warhorn remaining as it is for stunbreak utility is fine by me, but if arena net wants to expand on the idea of it providing support they need to do more work with it. Some have suggest blast finishers or adding boons. its very true that necromancer warhorn is objectively a worse weapon than something like Ranger warhorn. Which fills the same niche as necromancer warhorn but is much much better. For Focus, if any weapon should be the power offhand weapon focus should be it in my opinion since I do like the idea of a support warhorn although I admit that not everyone agrees with me.

 

Quote

Thirdly on the power front, as we also discussed in that other thread, the Spite Master and Grandmaster minors especially just need a rework. Once again these were Traits that felt bad 10 years ago, and time hasn't been kind to them. 

Things like 25% increased damage while downed is just a bad joke at this point.

 

Now I do think you make valid points here, but at the end of the day we can only talk or fan design around a broken foundation for so long.

I don't think Traits like Death Perception having additional benefits in Shroud (which therefor in essence only work at ~50% efficiency) is really a problem - or why out of Shroud usually feels so down right boring and bland. 

15% extra Critical Damage out of Shroud, or gaining 180 extra Power (without band-aid Signet Trait) in Shroud and the like would help to elevate Power Builds on Necromancer, sure - but it's not the crux of the issue of why these builds have always been trailing behind, both in effectiveness as well as fun and flow.

Absolutely. I don't claim my solution are the be all end all. I think there are many directions we could go. And I think a revised philosophy around necromancer is necessary for the future growth of the profession.

[Warscythes.9307]

2). Close to death is a 10% damage boost when we account for the full fight and other things.

 

I feel you are not understanding my main concern. I don't know the exact number of what your proposed new trait will be for inshroud bonus to work out of shroud. What I am worried is that for power reaper specifically it has a good rotation and if the new trait is better mathematically, it will make the rotation worse. 

 

Currently a lot of dps builds in the game work in some sort of priority system, basically you just press the higher priority skill on cd. Reaper is a little bit different. Because shroud has better bonus, you want to layer as much damage as possible in it and guess what, reaper has 3 aoes. So the main rotation is basically gs4/5 animation cancel, drop wells, get in shroud and spin. I hear reaper's mark might be used now as well but that's the general rotation in between. I think this is a very good and different enough rotation which should be preserved.

 

What I don't want is that if the damage modifier for in and out of shroud are the same, it will go be in the same priority system like the other dps rotations where you just press well on cd because it's the highest damage skill. I think losing that would be a big negative on the actual gameplay for power reaper.

 

Also guilty as charged, you typed a big paragraph mate and well I did too I suppose. Might have missed something reading through it. But looking back at it again, I don't think it quelled my fear about breaking the rotation. You said in shroud would still be stronger with the new trait, I don't see how though at least for power reaper as that is where most of my game time is.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Lily.1935]

9 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

2). Close to death is a 10% damage boost when we account for the full fight and other things.

 

I feel you are not understanding my main concern. I don't know the exact number of what your proposed new trait will be for inshroud bonus to work out of shroud. What I am worried is that for power reaper specifically it has a good rotation and if the new trait is better mathematically, it will make the rotation worse. 

 

Currently a lot of dps builds in the game work in some sort of priority system, basically you just press the higher priority skill on cd. Reaper is a little bit different. Because shroud has better bonus, you want to layer as much damage as possible in it and guess what, reaper has 3 aoes. So the main rotation is basically gs4/5 animation cancel, drop wells, get in shroud and spin. I hear reaper's mark might be used now as well but that's the general rotation in between. I think this is a very good and different enough rotation which should be preserved.

 

What I don't want is that if the damage modifier for in and out of shroud are the same, it will go be in the same priority system like the other dps rotations where you just press well on cd because it's the highest damage skill. I think losing that would be a big negative on the actual gameplay for power reaper.

 

Also guilty as charged, you typed a big paragraph mate and well I did too I suppose. Might have missed something reading through it. But looking back at it again, I don't think it quelled my fear about breaking the rotation. You said in shroud would still be stronger with the new trait, I don't see how though at least for power reaper as that is where most of my game time is.

Sorry, edit. Lets see.

Well, That was a solution to this existing problem and not the only solution proposed. I can understand not liking that idea, however I personally think it has some merit too it. Either as 5 seconds out of shroud so its not permanent or 10 seconds with the penalty of strong health loss. I do think in the future we might have an elite spec that is power that functions similar to scourge. In which case will your feelings on this change?

I know for myself my opinion evolves as time progresses and I have more hands on experience with certain aspects of the game.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Lily.1935

[Warscythes.9307]

2 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Sorry, edit. Lets see.

Well, That was a solution to this existing problem and not the only solution proposed. I can understand not liking that idea, however I personally think it has some merit too it. Either as 5 seconds out of shroud so its not permanent or 10 seconds with the penalty of strong health loss. I do think in the future we might have an elite spec that is power that functions similar to scourge. In which case will your feelings on this change?

I know for myself my opinion evolves as time progresses and I have more hands on experience with certain aspects of the game.

So power scourge of sort? I mean personally I think numbers are easy to change which is really what I am seeing here for the most part, but if it doesn't affect gameplay at all then is just boosting numbers in different ways, of which there are multiple ways of doing it because boosting numbers is easy. I am not necessarily against the idea of boosting numbers as long as it doesn't make the gameplay potentially worse. Not like numbers worse but feelings worse, or well too different.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Kaladel.1670]

I think the fact that most traits on necro do nothing outside of shroud (especially after shroud nerfs) is one of the main problems in the (arguably extremely bad) design of the necromancer.

[Warscythes.9307]

58 minutes ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

I think the fact that most traits on necro do nothing outside of shroud (especially after shroud nerfs) is one of the main problems in the (arguably extremely bad) design of the necromancer.

That's not really true though. There are certainly traits that only benefit shroud or becomes stronger in it. But no the majority of traits work both in and out of shroud. I'd argue that do more damage and having more modifiers in shroud is a perfectly good thing to do. The real main issue design wise for shroud is really the no utility in shroud. Whether or not the shroud hp should apply is also another topic because I know this will mostly be a raid thing, most people probably like it, so that's something would need to be changed via trait choice and whatnot.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Kaladel.1670]

24 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

That's not really true though. There are certainly traits that only benefit shroud or becomes stronger in it. But no the majority of traits work both in and out of shroud. I'd argue that do more damage and having more modifiers in shroud is a perfectly good thing to do. The real main issue design wise for shroud is really the no utility in shroud. Whether or not the shroud hp should apply is also another topic because I know this will mostly be a raid thing, most people probably like it, so that's something would need to be changed via trait choice and whatnot.

"Most valuable traits" are you happy now? 🙄God, what is the point of being so nitpicky, seriously?

Shroud was a bad decision from the start and changed on the fly last minute, since lich form skills were meant to be shroud skills. The fact is that Necro has never received the attention and care it desserves. It's a messed up profession that only survived until now because of some bad design decisions being in its favor.

[Warscythes.9307]

11 minutes ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

"Most valuable traits" are you happy now? 🙄God, what is the point of being so nitpicky, seriously?

Shroud was a bad decision from the start and changed on the fly last minute, since lich form skills were meant to be shroud skills. The fact is that Necro has never received the attention and care it desserves. It's a messed up profession that only survived until now because of some bad design decisions being in its favor.

Because that's still not really true though, I was referring to most valuable traits in the first place. I am just going off the top of my head here. What are the most valuable traits necro has in PvE.

 

Spite - Spiteful talisman, awaken the pain, close to death. All works in both in and out of shroud, awaken the pain has a small bonus in enter in shroud but would you really count that.

 

Curse - Plague sending is active in shroud, master of corruption is both, lingering curse and to a lesser extend parastic contagion are both in and out of shroud.

 

DM - I honestly have never used DM except meme  a bit in PvP and solo dungeon on the occasion.

 

BM - Transfusion is the biggest one and yes this is a very important trait that only works in shroud.

 

SR - Given this is the shroud line, most of them are in shroud only. So Sinister shroud is shroud only, soul barbs is really both, death perception is better in shroud but has function out of it.

 

Reaper - Decimate defense, soul eater are in and out of shroud. Reaper's onslaught in in shroud only and is important as well.

 

Scourge - All traits work in and out of shroud, though to be honest this is a bit weird because of scourge shroud interaction with F5.

 

Harbinger - Deathly haste/doom approaches are both in shroud. Everything else like the concentration/pistol trait etc are in and out of shroud.

 

So looking at this, I would say no, majority of the valuable traits do not work in shroud only. Majority of them works both in and out of shroud. Unless you think transfusion, reaper's onslaught and deathly haste and doom approaches are the only important ones. I am sure I am missed some more minor ones since I am going off the top of my head, but I doubt there's that much of a difference.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[The Boz.2038]

On 10/8/2022 at 9:39 PM, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

The death perception change was one of the worst changes to necromancer

No, it was the best. Gearing for out or in shroud was a dumb idea. Glad we've moved past it.

[Lily.1935]

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

No, it was the best. Gearing for out or in shroud was a dumb idea. Glad we've moved past it.

Hot take on this, I think they should do this for Dhuumfire as well... Give it a 20% burning duration as well as the burning on shroud 1... Doesn't change MUCH at all... But it would make my OCD calm down a bit...