HGH is too essential for elixirs

[mov.1246]

HGH/compounding chemicals feels too powerful to avoid when using elixirs. I calculated the theoretical uptime in combat if keeping elixirs on cooldown to compare the traited and untraited version. I compared Elixir B, U and H to show how they performs, and i came to the result: elixirs without alchemy/HGH are bad.

PvE

Elixir B: (untraited, base duration)

Fury (10s) – 25% uptime

5 Might (10s) – 25% uptime

Resolution (10s) – 25% uptime

Swiftness (10s) – 25% Uptime

40s CD

Elixir B: (HGH+compounding chemicals)

Fury (14s) – 44% uptime

5 Might (14s) – 44% uptime

Resolution (14s) – 44% uptime

Swiftness (14s) – 44% uptime

2 Might from HGH (17,5s) – 55% uptime

32s CD

 

Elixir U: (untraited, base duration)

Quickness (6s) – 15% uptime

2 Stability (6s) – 15% uptime

Vigor (6s) – 15% uptime

40s CD

Elixir U: (HGH+compounding chemicals)

Quickness (8,25s) – 26% uptime

2 Stability(8,25s) – 26% uptime

Vigor(8,25s) – 26% uptime

2 Might from HGH (17,5s) – 55% uptime

32s CD

 

Elixir H: (untraited, base duration)

Healing 5560 – 222 heal/sec

Protection (2s) – 8% uptime

Regeneration (4s) – 16% uptime

Swiftness (4s) – 16% uptime

25s CD

Elixir H: (HGH+compounding chemicals)

Healing 5560 – 278 heal/sec

Protection (2,75s) – 14% uptime

Regeneration (5,5s) – 28% uptime

Swiftness (5,5s) – 28% uptime

2 Might from HGH (17,5s) – 88% uptime

20s CD

 

Does this mean HGH is overpowered? Definitely yes. This trait (together with alchemy and compounding chemicals) has too much impact on the performance of elixirs. But i dont say the traited elixirs are too strong, what i want to say is untraited elixirs are too weak! HGH needs a nerf, and untraited elixirs a buff. Right now HGH gives 20% CD reduction, 20% increased duration and 2 stacks might. The CD reduction and increased duration should be baseline on all elixirs. The might application should be the only benefit that HGH brings.

[jason.1083]

HGH is strong and all, after all it's a Grandmaster tier trait, but that really makes an impact if you're using a build that makes use of a lot of elixirs, if you only have 1 or 2 elixir skills equiped, which is the case most of the time, it's pretty ok.

It makes sense that if you are using 1 kind of skill you should be able to get a lot out of it, since you can use traits that buff these skills to their maximum potential. You could say the same for Expirimental Turrets if you use a build full of Turrets, or the Encanced Capacity Storage Unit if you use a build full of Exceed skills, or Gadgeteer with a build full of gadget skills.

Untraited skills are meant to underpreform when you compare them to their traited versions, it's to prevent players from using a type of skill close to it's maximum potential without dedicating a traitline to buff it, that can lead to players taking advantage of passives from other taits while not sacrificing their active skills potential.

Edited June 8, 2023 by jason.1083

[Dadnir.5038]

The main issue with HGH CD reduction is that the toolbelt's elixirs also benefit from mechanized deployment CD reduction and alacrity. At the end of the day, toolbet's elixirs can reach close to 50% CD reduction.

The devs have already proven that they don't really mind bringing utility traits to a state that's close to uselessness if it serve their agenda.

[Zzik.5873]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The main issue with HGH CD reduction is that the toolbelt's elixirs also benefit from mechanized deployment CD reduction and alacrity. At the end of the day, toolbet's elixirs can reach close to 50% CD reduction.

The devs have already proven that they don't really mind bringing utility traits to a state that's close to uselessness if it serve their agenda.

True but toolbelt elixir base cooldown are super long already, so its not as overpower as you make it sound. Dont forget that hgh is on a support traitline, so to get the cooldown reduction on elixir, you have to sacrifice 1 DPS line wich in itself make it useless for DPS build. As for healer/support build, you dont really run elixir, maybe 1 or 2, (the elixir gun kit only have 1 skill thats is consider an elixir).

[Bigbizz.9406]

I don't think hgh is really a problem when you consider that the other 2 traits available aren't really desirable. 

Edit for context: supports go for PoP and if you're going for HGH then PoP really wouldn't be a good contender for what you're building for. Iron blood is also affected by running stuff that gives you boons, like elixers, so why not just go HGH?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Bigbizz.9406

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

True but toolbelt elixir base cooldown are super long already, so its not as overpower as you make it sound. Dont forget that hgh is on a support traitline, so to get the cooldown reduction on elixir, you have to sacrifice 1 DPS line wich in itself make it useless for DPS build. As for healer/support build, you dont really run elixir, maybe 1 or 2, (the elixir gun kit only have 1 skill thats is consider an elixir).

• 1 toolbelt elixir (toss elixir C) have 20s base CD: cleanse 2 conditions on 5 targets every 10s if traited/alac
• 2 toolbelt elixirs (toss elixir B, Toss elixir H) have 25s base CD: bunch of boons on 5 targets every 13 seconds if traited/alac.

You have to take tool traitline for the CD reduc which mean that you cleanse yourself and grant yourself vigor each time you use a toolbelt skill.

• 1 toolbelt elixir (Healing mist) have a 35s CD: break stun on a 18s CD.
• 1 toolbelt elixir (toss elixir U) have 40s base CD: superspeed on 5 ally every 21s
• 1 toolbelt elixir (toss elixir S) have 45s base CD: 5s of stealth on 5 ally every 23s

I wouldn't say that those base CD are especially "long" for what the skills do.

• 2 toolbelt elixirs (toss elixir R, toss elixir X) have 90s base CD: Revive area/up to 3 foes moa'd on 45s CD.

The competitive modes pain points. Even if their base CD is indeed long here, the skills are balanced for a 90s CD, not for a 45s CD.

NB: The elixir gun have 3 skills considered elixirs: the toolbelt skill (healing mist), skill#4 (acid bomb) and skill#5 (super elixir). HGH trait impact 18 engineer skills and 3 traits not the measly 6 skills that similar trait impact for other professions (well, few of those traits still reduce skills CD anyway).

[Zzik.5873]

37 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

• 1 toolbelt elixir (toss elixir C) have 20s base CD: cleanse 2 conditions on 5 targets every 10s if traited/alac
• 2 toolbelt elixirs (toss elixir B, Toss elixir H) have 25s base CD: bunch of boons on 5 targets every 13 seconds if traited/alac.

You have to take tool traitline for the CD reduc which mean that you cleanse yourself and grant yourself vigor each time you use a toolbelt skill.

• 1 toolbelt elixir (Healing mist) have a 35s CD: break stun on a 18s CD.
• 1 toolbelt elixir (toss elixir U) have 40s base CD: superspeed on 5 ally every 21s
• 1 toolbelt elixir (toss elixir S) have 45s base CD: 5s of stealth on 5 ally every 23s

I wouldn't say that those base CD are especially "long" for what the skills do.

• 2 toolbelt elixirs (toss elixir R, toss elixir X) have 90s base CD: Revive area/up to 3 foes moa'd on 45s CD.

The competitive modes pain points. Even if their base CD is indeed long here, the skills are balanced for a 90s CD, not for a 45s CD.

NB: The elixir gun have 3 skills considered elixirs: the toolbelt skill (healing mist), skill#4 (acid bomb) and skill#5 (super elixir). HGH trait impact 18 engineer skills and 3 traits not the measly 6 skills that similar trait impact for other professions (well, few of those traits still reduce skills CD anyway).

Did forgot those 2 about elixir gun. That said, as a support you dont really run that many elixir and as a DPS you dont run this traitline. I grt your point but I dont think its mandatory as op suggest.

[Endaris.1452]

8 hours ago, jason.1083 said:

since you can use traits that buff these skills to their maximum potential

I feel like this is exactly the problem.

The traits aren't just up there for free, you may be forced to take a trait line you normally wouldn't want to take with your weapon/elite/stat choices.

In fact, anet has of late done a lot of work in removing these trait interactions at least for weapon skills and gave out the CDR normally gained from the trait as the baseline while offering a different option.

In my opinion this is the completely right direction. You don't want a potentially viable or fun build to fall apart just because a powerful support trait for your utilities is in a traitline you may want for effectively nothing else.

8 hours ago, jason.1083 said:

You could say the same for Expirimental Turrets if you use a build full of Turrets,

The issue with these traits is that they are extreme condensations of the former trait systems.

Behold, the former turrets trait variety. If you were committing to a certain skill type you had many more options to make these skills more powerful than you can today, although that system obviously had other problems.

Current experimental turrets combines two former traits into one. Same for HGH. Given how focused Alchemy is on Elixirs, to me it seems only right to make HGH a minor trait or make the CDR baseline and rework HGH into a more specific trait, potentially making use of former elixir traits that got axed, such as elixirs removing conditions.

Ultimately, many utility skill types in this game don't even have a trait that improves them. Making other utilities underperform because they have a trait that could make them strong is just unfun for build crafting.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Endaris.1452

[jason.1083]

4 hours ago, Bigbizz.9406 said:

I don't think hgh is really a problem when you consider that the other 2 traits available aren't really desirable. 

Edit for context: supports go for PoP and if you're going for HGH then PoP really wouldn't be a good contender for what you're building for. Iron blood is also affected by running stuff that gives you boons, like elixers, so why not just go HGH?

That's not entirely true, Purity of Purpose and Iron Blooded are desirable in some cases. What makes people go with HGH instead is that for them to use the Alchemy trait line, means that they'll be rocking some elixirs in their build, but that's not necessary. 

You can have plenty of boon focused builds that don't make use of Elixirs, so Iron Blooded is perfect for those cases. 

Also Purity of Purpose will work amazingly with any build with high condition cleansing capacity, you get boons for the conditions you cleanse, which also in turn heals you from compounding chemicals, and you can pare that with come back cure to get regeneration on top of any boon you'd get anyway, and make compounding chemicals trigger twice when you convert a condition. 

[foxtrot.6902]

Would love to see a change to toolbelt elixirs to be a mist like elixir gun vs having aim time + cast time + air time as well

[SleepyBat.9034]

20 hours ago, jason.1083 said:

Also Purity of Purpose will work amazingly with any build with high condition cleansing capacity, you get boons for the conditions you cleanse, which also in turn heals you from compounding chemicals, and you can pare that with come back cure to get regeneration on top of any boon you'd get anyway, and make compounding chemicals trigger twice when you convert a condition. 

meh, I think they overdid the Purity of Purpose nerf, they shouldn't have added both an icd and nerfed the durations so much. I could understand if they picked one of those but both? Zero reasons to ever take it unless you're full support which is lame.

[jason.1083]

57 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

meh, I think they overdid the Purity of Purpose nerf, they shouldn't have added both an icd and nerfed the durations so much. I could understand if they picked one of those but both? Zero reasons to ever take it unless you're full support which is lame.

It could be better, true, these are the reasons why I pick Iron Blooded over it, even considering I'm using 8 condi cleansing skills with the capacity to clease 19 conditions in total, it's still not worth it over Iron Blooded.

[Endaris.1452]

Well, that was fast. Personally I still think some elixirs would've been far from overpowered with also getting a slight duration buff but it's something.

[SleepyBat.9034]

They didn't make the duration baseline for Lesser Elixir C (Only in PvP for some reason), Toss Elixir R, and Elixir Shell.

[AlPower.2476]

I don't know how to feel about elixirs.

Most of untraited elixir are useless right now; and to choose elixirs traitline is worthless.

But with CD reduction on Toolbelt + balance buff; I think they finally will be a strong option, but not the best option. I mean; if you choose Tools and Elixirs traitline; you're missing explosives; a very strong option for PvP due to vitality, fury, autohealing, damage boost and a light stun source. So for fighters like Scrapper and dueling Holos will be worthless (probly).

But I'm afraid of builds like protec Holo starting to overperform; and by the way anet nerfing things like elixir gun, mortar kit, healing turret, shields, etc. destroying lots of builds that uses those skills. And we all know that isn't an uncommon situation.

Edited June 10, 2023 by AlPower.2476

[jason.1083]

6 hours ago, AlPower.2476 said:

I don't know how to feel about elixirs.

Most of untraited elixir are useless right now; and to choose elixirs traitline is worthless.

But with CD reduction on Toolbelt + balance buff; I think they finally will be a strong option, but not the best option. I mean; if you choose Tools and Elixirs traitline; you're missing explosives; a very strong option for PvP due to vitality, fury, autohealing, damage boost and a light stun source. So for fighters like Scrapper and dueling Holos will be worthless (probly).

But I'm afraid of builds like protec Holo starting to overperform; and by the way anet nerfing things like elixir gun, mortar kit, healing turret, shields, etc. destroying lots of builds that uses those skills. And we all know that isn't an uncommon situation.

Although I get why people use the explosives trait line for both scrappers and holosmiths, especially in PvP and WvW, I can safely tell you that it's possible to make decent dueling builds without it for both specs. 

It's true that the explosives traits are a bit overturned, mostly just because of the amount of explosion attacks you can have, the traits themselves are fine, but the fact that you can trigger them permanently is what's most appealing. 

I believe other traits would be equally used if not more if they could be triggered as often as the explosives stuff. 

The changes they will make to both Gadgets and Elixirs will help some builds, because they'll be able to pick a few different traits, but I reckon most people will see no difference, since they will still go with gadgeteer for their gadgets and HGH for their elixirs, just to squeeze the most out of their skills. So we probably won't see many overpreforming builds from that change.