June 27 Balance Update Preview

[Batalix.2873]

12 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

I'm sorry. As a healer main in all MMORPG, I really can't agree with this statement. They are just the same skill or at least extremely similar skills with different graphic effects. Their mechanics are nerfed many times so they won't affect the balance that much. Either extremely long cooldown or very weak effects. The main reason is commercialization. Anyone who is in art, music, design profession, doing creative works, should be able to understand this situation.

We are actually very lucky, GW2 haven't been there yet. It's actually still pretty far from being like that. That's why I'm here playing GW2. 

Second this. 95% of the tank and healer kits are virtually identical, and even the DPS kits are just minor elaborations on 123 combos. Plus tanks have been given so much self-sustain and healers' damage/mezzer kits have been so crippled that they are largely irrelevant. When I quit FFXIV last year tanks were already soloing dungeons while the hi DPS and bimbo healer tanked the floor. And apparently it didn't take hardly any time for an all tank team to clear the most recent Ultimate Trial. And that is not even getting into how many unique features, both with respect to combat mechanics and class identity, that have been pruned away from that game in service of a strict 2 minute buff window rotation, with an extremely narrow skill floor/ceiling--very difficult to fail and very difficult to push your DPS in any way other than syncing your rotation up with your other 7 drones.

The closest thing I felt to excitement in that game were the one shield ability on DRK and SGE. The last vestige of anything proactive in the game that still amounted to volunteering as a punching bag. I exaggerate because there were still hints of proc-based gameplay in RDM, AST, and MNK, but my exaggerations are miniscule. The game practically plays itself, like Mechanist!

[Batalix.2873]

2 minutes ago, Fang.1407 said:

Just because it "isn't needed" doesn't mean they should take it out of the game and destroy the theme and playstyle of an elite spec. It also doesn't mean it's not a very powerful tool in many situations. As they said when they introduced it, Specter's single target skills have really high healing since they are single target. This makes it very useful when one target is what really matters. For example, keeping a tank alive during Soulless Horror when the other tank dies and saving a run, or barriering up Glenna when you have to defend her during raids. You can even target a stand-in handkite and make them immortal. In QTP Specter is also really good at healing the pylon kiters if something goes wrong (the healing on the single target abilities is very high compared to other healers' skills and Specter has high movement on top of that. Shadow shroud also has a very good range for this.) I've also made a play a few times where I would make a ranger nigh-immortal on a wall in WvW, give them quickness and stab, and let them wreak constant havoc on the enemy team with their longbow with basically no consequences.

Specter having single target healing also allows them, as I said before, to heal both subgroups on their own. There are several ways to heal/barrier your own subgroup a ton, one of those being over time. Then you can use 3 on sc/p (and the scepter stealth attack) to heal the other subgroup, which also splashes healing from the shadowstep traits onto your own group if they still need more healing. This comes in especially handy if your group is taking constant low ticks of damage since with AoE healing you would only target your own group most of the time with how the subgroup system works. Since Specter can heal both groups effectively this lets you take out the other healer for many fights if needed (which I have had done when we needed more damage for some raid fights) and lets you give a bit of help for less experienced healers if needed.

Now about the targeting issues, I do agree that they could do better about making it more accessible, as the only good way currently to target someone is through the party/squad menu. I said in the previous update preview that they need to introduce a better allied targeting keybind that doesn't target clones and NPCs to make it easier for many people to play it. However, these things not being in the game doesn't warrant them taking out single target healing, but rather it warrants them adding in the quality of life things it needs to make it easier for many people to play. Also, just want to bring this to attention, I've never heard anyone else say "I have to move my mouse too much" about literally anything in this game...

I know I'm kind of repeating myself here, but just because it's "not needed" doesn't mean it's not very useful. Or fun for that matter. Maybe not fun for you, but if you don't think it's fun, then just don't play it. Anywho, I hope this doesn't come off as me being frustrated with you in particular. Just kind of tired of seeing people say "remove single target healing" just because they personally don't like how it plays at the moment. It would be better to add more support, rather than gutting it and making Specter another "press a button to heal in a circle" thing.

I do suppose I would rather ST healing stay in the game as opposed to Specter just become even more transparently Scourge.

But even better would have been to just give it a better gimmick altogether. The concept of a "healing" Thief is too forced, and as implemented just feels like a lazy Necro copy-paste job.

[Fang.1407]

6 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I do suppose I would rather ST healing stay in the game as opposed to Specter just become even more transparently Scourge.

But even better would have been to just give it a better gimmick altogether. The concept of a "healing" Thief is too forced, and as implemented just feels like a lazy Necro copy-paste job.

Yeah, I do feel that they could have done more with the shadow shroud mechanic, rather than making it a different form of necromancer shroud. It does fit thematically (stealing people's shadows to create a "barrier" of sorts), but it's really close to being a necromancer elite spec mechanic. lol

[Drag You Down.2615]

20 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

The game practically plays itself, like Mechanist!

I love your last sentence XD

[Myror.7521]

What peops seems not to get. A good Balance will always cost class identity cause every thing unique means also difference in strength. As I mentioned in another thrait. With an eye on Balance it is a good Patch but with an eye on class uniqueness its just a Bad one ^^.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Dzheen.5291]

Quote

Endless Stamina: This trait has been reworked and renamed Fluid Strikes. It now grants the thief a damage bonus for a period of time after using a movement skill or completing a shadowstep.

That change will bring more oneshot builds. People will start complaining, anet will nerf trait to the ground. Trait will become useless.
Anet, is this your goal?
Leave "Endless Stamina" as it is. It gives a unique playstyle for some core builds and Acrobatic line. Acrobatic line about surviveability without stealth, not about damage.

[Batalix.2873]

10 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

What peops seems not to get. A good Balance will always cost class identity cause every thing unique means also difference in strength. As I mentioned in another thrait. With an eye on Balance it is a good Patch but with an eye on class uniqueness its just a Bad one ^^.

Do you even play games man?

Smash Bros. Overwatch. Destiny. Team Fortress. Smite. Magic: The Gathering. Etc. Etc.

Many, many games maintain a generally fair meta with extremely diverse characters/classes. Because they actually take the time to tweak the many unique features of the game to ensure they aren't overpowered or without counterplays BEFORE release. A well-developed game doesn't NEED to sweepingly erase whole features and facets to "balance"--they just need to occasionally spot-remove particularly oppressive builds that slip through the cracks. A good game does not care about aiming for perfect "balance"; it cares about removing excessive imbalance and affording enough mechanical depth for players to otherwise navigate the imbalances themselves.

The GW2 Espec System was GOOD. Well-considered, multifaceted, and for the most part not terribly imbalanced.

The HoT/PoF especs were, by and large, fine. They needed a few points of focus and spot removal, but overall I don't think anyone can argue that the game was being oppressed by any particular build other than Firebrand prior to EoD (mayyyybe WvW, but WvW is its own problem that is always going to aggregate toward boonblobs and really just needs to introduce more features to that mode which break up boonblobs). There were definitely classes that needed a little extra love like Ele and Warrior, but not many things needed nerfing or removal.

Has anyone ever actually complained about Druid's Ancient Seed? Mirage's dodge? Thief's flanking? Necro's corruptions and rezzing? Berserker's Primal Bursts? These perceived "problems" the devs are "fixing" are largely nonexistent in any framework that doesn't give heavy deference to the comparatively braindead EoD specs, and ultimately amount to  whataboutisms to distract away from the EoD specs.

The fact that the devs are unable to issue limited, targeted nerfs to a system that largely was running smoothly--and are going after established older classes instead of rethinking their newer additions--is a very telling indication that they probably don't know what they are doing or have an appreciation for the many things that were already working in the espec system. They would rather tear it all down than try to understand and work within it, let alone target the *actual* imbalances which are Mech, and Virtuoso, and the EoD specs generally.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Alternatex.5734]

Ive been playing vindicator for while and there couple things I think should get changed damage on dodge being on and not making the dodge animation so clunky for everyone. Maybe animation steps you into mists with glow to indicate the dodge you chose. Risposting Shadows animation + glow? also thief bound take the damage way too 

Salvation triatline needs to get looked into because the barrier gain is wild. (barriar perboon) + all healing scaling

Death Drop- take damage way keep the vulerablitiy + damage buff.

Imperial Impact- take damage way keep rest the same

Saint's Shield- least half the heal+barrier 

Tree Song- great skill but the animation glitchs out sometimes sucks your energy and then your in trouble.

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Alternatex.5734

[BadLuck.8456]

4 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Do you even play games man?

Smash Bros. Overwatch. Destiny. Team Fortress. Smite. Magic: The Gathering. Etc. Etc.

Many, many games maintain a generally fair meta with extremely diverse characters/classes. Because they actually take the time to tweak the many unique features of the game to ensure they aren't overpowered or without counterplays BEFORE release. A well-developed game doesn't NEED to sweepingly erase whole features and facets to "balance"--they just need to occasionally spot-remove particularly oppressive builds that slip through the cracks. A good game does not care about aiming for perfect "balance"; it cares about removing excessive imbalance and affording enough mechanical depth for players to otherwise navigate the imbalances themselves.

While I think you have a good argument and it's presented well, I think part of the problem is that you primarily listed small scale PvP games. We could talk about GW2's SPvP if you want but lol.

But if we introduced a PvE mode to Team Fortress suddenly every team needs a medic. Spy is either mega OP or worthless depending on the AI. Etc. If we introduced a 50v50 mode, sniper is now game defining.

GW2 has 3 different modes with 3 (or more) different metas. Multiple skill levels in each. It's a balance nightmare. Previously it seemed like they just balanced PvE and let WvW and PvP figure it out. Maybe nerf a few things that were just REALLY outstanding. Now they seem to be trying to balance all of them without having 3 different games that just share skins.

 

As an example to your point "Has anyone ever complained about... necro rezzing?" Yes. They did. Scourge is almost a completely different class between WvW/PvP and PvE. Competitive gutted ReviveScourge on Feb 25 2020 because it's not OK to be OP in a PvP game. They left it in PvE because it's generally more accepted to be niche OP in PvE games. Now they are trying to move specs out of their niches and more towards the middle. I feel for people who are upset at losing their niche but I think it's better for game health. Just like Blue is not the only Magic color with counterspell anymore. Or how they got rid of a lot of land destruction. One turn kills and infinite combos are something Magic trys to avoid (I assume) because even if they were niche they weren't healthy for the game.

[Batalix.2873]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:01 PM, BadLuck.8456 said:

While I think you have a good argument and it's presented well, I think part of the problem is that you primarily listed small scale PvP games. We could talk about GW2's SPvP if you want but lol.

But if we introduced a PvE mode to Team Fortress suddenly every team needs a medic. Spy is either mega OP or worthless depending on the AI. Etc. If we introduced a 50v50 mode, sniper is now game defining.

GW2 has 3 different modes with 3 (or more) different metas. Multiple skill levels in each. It's a balance nightmare. Previously it seemed like they just balanced PvE and let WvW and PvP figure it out. Maybe nerf a few things that were just REALLY outstanding. Now they seem to be trying to balance all of them without having 3 different games that just share skins.

 

As an example to your point "Has anyone ever complained about... necro rezzing?" Yes. They did. Scourge is almost a completely different class between WvW/PvP and PvE. Competitive gutted ReviveScourge on Feb 25 2020 because it's not OK to be OP in a PvP game. They left it in PvE because it's generally more accepted to be niche OP in PvE games. Now they are trying to move specs out of their niches and more towards the middle. I feel for people who are upset at losing their niche but I think it's better for game health. Just like Blue is not the only Magic color with counterspell anymore. Or how they got rid of a lot of land destruction. One turn kills and infinite combos are something Magic trys to avoid (I assume) because even if they were niche they weren't healthy for the game.

I don't agree with this. The game has been converging on "everything DPS" so hard since EoD that *any* non-DPS build niches should generally be preserved. Rez Scourge was not really hurting anything in PvE and is a valuable prog tool. Specialized, and not overpowered because good groups don't need the extra barrier/rez and just slot other builds.

MtG may not be the best example because that game keeps piling on more and more garbage, issuing design philosophies then recanting them, mechanics tripping over mechanics and word soup splattered all over the table. But they do still take a better approach to balancing than GW2 has been of late.

The reality is that, if you think things through to a conclusion, WvW "balancing" should barely be a thing. That mode has demonstrated, time and again, that no matter what the mechanics and class abilities are, the strat is generally to blob up. Nature finds stability in aggregation. The specifics of how the blob coalesces hardly matter because the mechanisms are already there en masse: bodies, AoE effects, and abilities with target limits. The blobs are an emergent phenomenon and as such do not abide strictly by rules governing smaller magnitudes. Necro can have corruptions or not, Berserker can have Arc Divider or not, the blobs will still retain a large degree of resilience and stay their course. The devs should stop trying to balance WvW around *classes* and start balancing them around *interferences* and *externalities*. They need to implement more environmental/contruct tools as counterplay to blobs, not "balance patches".

Edited June 24, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Gendalfs.7521]

WvW to blob up is because youre playing running simulator once you die. More respawn points would fix this.

[Batalix.2873]

6 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

WvW to blob up is because youre playing running simulator once you die. More respawn points would fix this.

I do think that is a large factor. And respawn points would definitely be one of those externalities I mentioned that would help mitigate blob play.

[Spartan Phoenix.9053]

What are you waiting for to revive ele's main hand dagger??? It was weak and now it's unplayable. And it was the funiest weapon with ele. You need to revert fire and earth 3 changes. Fire 1 and 2 have low damage and are easy to avoid, earth 1 and 2 have low dps in pvp. Dagger fire 5 needs more radius, not a wider angle. Some traits are completely useless after the utility cd changes. Dagger fire 2 should hit more times per second.
And conditions need to be reworked for pvp. Less dps, more hits per second and more condition sources.

[Eddie.9143]

maybe 35 second cd baseline for slick shoes? also can you increase the range of static shock tool belt skill to 240? maybe lower drop supply crate to 100 seconds?

[FalsePromises.6398]

Here to add one last remark that I've just noticed holistically as of late: boon traits are starting to become cumbersome instead of rewarding or synergetic. There seems to be more concern with tradeoff than payoff: these new utility boon trait options are starting to cut away from existing, built-up styles instead of building on established elite specialization identities to feel more rewarding and organic. 

For example: mechanist's alacrity on barrier builds up from a multitude of organic barrier sources that rewards the player for leaning into the specialization's offerings. Conversely, tempest's alacrity on overload subtracts from options that add flavor, potency, or quality of life to your style (Elemental Bastion or Transcendent Tempest) and result in sacrificing attractive, flavorful options to obtain. Another positive example, scrapper's quickness on superspeed builds on your unique offerings (being superspeed and gyro utility) without detracting any flavor or identity for picking the trait. Another anti-example, scourge's proposed changes will subtract the quality of life from Sand Savant and sand shades in general to grant alacrity in a questionably small set of radii, resulting in what feels like a painstaking sacrifice instead of a rewarding, synergetic pick. 

If what I'm saying still doesn't make sense, here's a hypothetical change of a good example to a bad example: if scrapper's quickness were to be made like tempest or scourge's models, it would be akin to "on any application of superspeed, apply quickness in its place". A change like that would iron out its unique offerings to fulfill its boon role, leaving it as an incredibly unfulfilling build to play. In reality, you want to bring both your specialization's unique offerings AND your role's offerings. 

What I'm saying is stop making traits that cut from your elite specialization's trademark capabilities, and instead design boon roles to accentuate them. Stop making boon roles feel like a shackle, make players feel enhanced when boons are added to their specializations. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by FalsePromises.6398

[The Boz.2038]

18 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Overwatch. . . . Magic: The Gathering. 

Many, many games maintain a generally fair meta with extremely diverse characters/classes

...you did not just...

[Nimon.7840]

On 6/14/2023 at 1:20 AM, Mystical Joe.9348 said:

I watched Mukluk's video and I agree with most of it. I don't play Necro much but I agree that the massive group rez should not be nerf'd. It is a signature necro move and changing that will effect a lot of the players that are new to certain strike missions. I do play mechanist and to have to try and always be within 360 of the Mech is going to suck. I do understand why you want to nerf it in PVE (there are a lot of Mech everywhere in PVE). Overall I don't think the Mech is actual over powered. It is fun and easy to play is why people use it a lot? What's wrong with that? In WvW and PvP i don't really see that many Mechs (certainly not like in PvE). The Mechanist is great option for players like me who have poor keyboard skills because of physical issues with our hands. Please don't mess that up. At the very least keep it viable for LI people in WvW and PvP. Thanks for considering this.

Imo that's actually the most positive change. If you permanently run heal scourge with new players and they fail but get rezzed anyways they won't learn to do the mechanics right, because there's a scourge to pick them up.

[The Boz.2038]

11 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Imo that's actually the most positive change. If you permanently run heal scourge with new players and they fail but get rezzed anyways they won't learn to do the mechanics right, because there's a scourge to pick them up.

Counterpoint: They'll learn the mechanic that killed them and how to counter it because the fail > retry timer is dramatically shorter, which has been proven to lead to higher information retention rates.

To argue against this is to say that bikes don't need training wheels, lol.

[Kodama.6453]

Anet, if you really want to go through with the idea of never adding new elite specs in the future and putting all role identities in the existing 3 elite specs, then there is one thing you are still missing from some classes: BOON HATE

As it currently stands, classes can get seperated into 3 different tiers when it comes to dealing with boons.

1. Classes which have sufficient boon hate in their core features (Thief, Necromancer, Mesmer)
2. Classes which have dedicated boon hate elite specs (Warrior and Ranger with Spellbreaker and Untamed respectively)
3. Classes which have insufficient ways to deal with boons (Engineer, Elementalist, Revenant, Guardian)

Some encounters require you to remove boons regularly. While it is not such a core identity as the boon supports for alacrity and quickness, it still is an identity that should be considered.

So I request that we get more boon removal options added to these 4 classes which are currently lacking it, either through new core features or as something added to the elite specs.

[soul.9651]

28 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Counterpoint: They'll learn the mechanic that killed them and how to counter it because the fail > retry timer is dramatically shorter, which has been proven to lead to higher information retention rates.

To argue against this is to say that bikes don't need training wheels, lol.

Or more likely they wont learn anything just because they simply dont have to.. you only learn the mechanics if you are forced to deal with them. And heal scourge is the opposite of that.. noone is forcing you to deal with any of the mechanics since thanks to heal scourge you simply ignore them. 

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, soul.9651 said:

Or more likely they wont learn anything just because they simply dont have to.. you only learn the mechanics if you are forced to deal with them. And heal scourge is the opposite of that.. noone is forcing you to deal with any of the mechanics since thanks to heal scourge you simply ignore them. 

So you think the Healscourge Entity is non-agentic, omnipresent, omnipotent, always there to save you, and can never communicate back to you?
Interesting.

Say, did you ever learn how to ride a bike?

[soul.9651]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

So you think the Healscourge Entity is non-agentic, omnipresent, omnipotent, always there to save you, and can never communicate back to you?
Interesting.

Say, did you ever learn how to ride a bike?

I mean, you can learn to ride a normal 2 wheel bike or you can bring heal scourge and learn how to ride your "tricycle", or probably you would need even more wheels to get more accurate scourge "training wheels"

[vrauns.3215]

We have to face reality, these scourge nerfs were coming and needed, even mighty teapot said he expected this to happen and it needed to be done, i highly doubt they will reverse them, so you have to live with the new scourge.

Edited June 21, 2023 by TheRunningSquire.3621

[Juan.6124]

On 6/20/2023 at 6:57 AM, nucklepuckk.1805 said:

Warhorn 5 and Might Spirit. Wake up.

Warhorn 5 is 6 might, frost spirit is 9 with a long ramp up time. Still missing 10 might.

Edited June 21, 2023 by DirtyDan.4759

[Batalix.2873]

3 hours ago, TheRunningSquire.3621 said:

We have to face reality, these scourge nerfs were coming and needed, even mighty teapot said he expected this to happen and it needed to be done, i highly doubt they will reverse them, so you have to live with the new scourge.

*Hisses* TEAAAAPOOOOTTTTTT