ele has too much projectile denial

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

uhm.... Just stick true to what you said please. Just 10 minutes ago you tried telling us, that you have 3 reflects every 1,5 minutes. Its totally okay to be wrong sometimes, no biggie. But dont act like you knew all along or you never said anything like that.

 

I am not moving any goalpost here. But i want to show you, that alot of things your saying are just plain wrong or ooze "I am currently Silver 3 but have a very strong opinion on alot of topics that i dont really understand"

Please please please be a bit more cautious with what your saying. And keep in mind, that you are playing right at the bottom of skillevel. Things that you have never ever seen... are pretty common once you reach plat and above.

Just a bit of thinking before you post an essay would be nice. Ill leave it at that.

 

 

The sad truth here is, that Ele has WAYYYYYYYY more projectile denial compared to any other class. (Except Ventari rev, but who even plays that :D)  And its not even close. And i think that this is part of why ele is as strong as it currently is.

 

Ive already admitted where I was wrong. And I already said that chaining relects is simply not feasable, so I didn't even consider it. I then conceded that I can see how a good tempest might use that, but even then it don't see how it is anything but highly situational. If 3-0+ reflect chains are used all the time in high elo, then I stand corrected.

 

So talk about the hightest level. How many people play there? most people moaning about tempest (90% of playerbase? ) or moaning about any class are the majority, and not at highest level. So low elo players playing against low elo tempests who are not ''unlocking'' the true potential of tempest, where is the problem there? thats skill issues, not class issues. If its only about high elo, then that should be specified, and at that, is tempest reflect a major issue? or is it litterally one of the key reasons temepst is meta and all the other supports bar core gaurd are useless. And, despite tempest being meta, isn't ranger also still meta?

 

I personally feel this is the issue with both Cata and Tempest. They are effective and are meta, so only then will people really complain. However, what about the likes of SB? the amount of stuns+boonrip along with counter inbetween, for essentially pressing 5 buttons is quite insane. Fighting an SB takes WAY more effort to kill, than what he puts in, regardless of its overall effectiveness or meta status. The same with bladesowrn, these are the types of specs I hope to hell are made far harder to play, before anything on tempest gets nerfed. Stoneheart has already took a nerf, and the aura support/mitigation for team mates is half the reason tempest is even viable. I think its obvious at this point raw healing is a joke, when classes are putting out 10k crits for fun.

 

You know, best of all is people forget Tempest is a support. Be it staff or D/F, it isn't exactly known for it's high burst and dmg. For the most part, the Tempest simply has to tank your burst and dmg, while having no real dps to put you on the backfoot, or punish you for bad plays (not like a true dps can). If a support is going to give up the ability to kill things, then its sure as hell bad game design if 1 ranger can roll up, and destroy that support, since it can never return the favour. Why play support at that point, when it would litterally be more effective for you and your team, to play a dps and kill that ranger. Support needs to have something solid to make up for the lack of kill potential. Tempest has that, (along with some melee/condi mitigation) its why its only one of only two viable supports, so how exactly would you change these mechanics withought destroying the spec? rendering it useless like 90% of the other specs. It all just smells like spec jelousy ''my spec is UP, nerf everything'' rather than saying ''my class is UP, give it more utility, dmg or what not to make it viable''.

 

Btw I already think Cata dmg is rediculess, just like scrapper burst and any other burst. 1 single dps being able to burst down another class in a few seconds with next to no counterplay apart from ''just dodge'' is not fun. Thats part of the reason why I have no issue with auras, becuase they can put a stop to a lot of that bs.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Leonidrex.5649]

If its just cata its aids but playable, but if there is cata + tempest or tempest + any other denial class projectiles might as well not exist. And with how broken ele is right now, its not unusual to have 2-3 of them in a team, at which point projectiles are unusable.

[Flowki.7194]

10 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

If its just cata its aids but playable, but if there is cata + tempest or tempest + any other denial class projectiles might as well not exist. And with how broken ele is right now, its not unusual to have 2-3 of them in a team, at which point projectiles are unusable.

I agree that is annoying, and ive experienced it. I never liked the fact the projectiles actually get reflected, thats too far for sure, just mitigatin ''some'' of the damage would be better. The only reason I will defend the auras right now is becuase the amount of burst/AOE damage various specs in the game are spewing out justifies it. Again, Tempst is only one of two supports currently viable.. that speaks more about the unbalanced state of dps, than supports.

[Khalisto.5780]

i would agree with those if i get +3-4k base health

[Zuko.7132]

Lower magnetic aura and shocking aura duration to three seconds from 4. Lower elemental epitome magnetic aura and shocking aura from 3 to 2. Problem solved.

[Zuko.7132]

Just now, Zuko.7132 said:

Lower magnetic aura and shocking aura duration to three seconds from 4. Lower elemental epitome magnetic aura and shocking aura from 3 to 2. Problem solved.

Also a lot of dps needs nerfs. There's a reason aura's are the best defense. They fully stop damage. Damage in general is too high on some builds to support through in other ways.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Zuko.7132 said:

Also a lot of dps needs nerfs. There's a reason aura's are the best defense. They fully stop damage. Damage in general is too high on some builds to support through in other ways.

This is really the problem. Every time I play a Tempest spec that does not have instant access to 2 reflects, I regret it as soon as a decent ranged player is in the game. Earth overload is just not reactive enough.

 

It would be more helpful if the ranged classes played as Tempest for a while, and see what its like being attacked by a daed eye with access to only 1 reflect. Try it, you'll soon see how bad it would be if you mess with auras too much.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 6/18/2023 at 1:27 AM, Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 said:

Have you literally tried using unblockable projectiles? 

It doesn't work because the projectile attacks that actually deal damage do so in several multiple strikes.

1. In the case of Ranger, Rapid Fire is 10x strikes, Barrage is 12x strikes. You pop Sig Of Hunt and it blows all the strikes in a single Rapid Fire or a Single Barrage. It can't allow both to hit, which is a requirement for dealing threatening damage as a Ranger with ranged attacks. Also, sacrificing a utility slot for Sig Of Hunt is a big deal. Ranger largely needs those 3 utility slots for very defensive tools to encompass mandatory counterplay. In the case of Untamed, Sig Of Hunt is only good because Untamed can run Marks Mods and utilize the Sig Of Hunt for massive melee strikes from both itself and the pet. All in all what I'm saying is that Sig Of Hunt is not used for ranged, it's used for melee, which hits through Mag Aura anyway.
2. In the case of Thief, it can't even make unblockable ranged. Even if it could, things like Unload would burn through the intensity so quickly it would hardly make a difference.
3. In the case of Engi, it can't even make unblockable ranged outside of its elite.
4. In the case of War, ranged builds although can be unblockable with Killshots & Gunflames, are simply not viable at all above meme level play in unranked.
5. In the case of Mesmer projectiles including its clones, only Virtuoso can make an unblockable projectile burst every so often. 90% of its projectiles are still completely negated by Mag Auras.
6. In the case of Necro & Eles, most of their ranged attacks are channels or ground targets which go through Mag Aura. Anything they have that is projectile based is just massively negated by perpetual Mag Auras.

On 6/18/2023 at 3:11 AM, SevlisBavles.3059 said:

They should distinguish between physical projectiles and magical projectiles. Bow attacks from Ranger, Warrior, Thief etc. get reflected, but magical attacks from Mesmer, Elementalist and such don't.

No

On 6/18/2023 at 4:08 AM, Morwath.9817 said:

I think its intentinal to keep ranged spike damage in check, forcing more melee fighting over CS:GO gameplay.

It's gone far beyond "keeping it in check" at this point. It's more like projectiles have become obsolete.

Look, when PoF first released, this is when we were introduced to super high damage spikes with ranged projectiles. We were given Sic Em Soulbeasts & Deadeyes. Before the Soulbeasts & Deadeyes, we had relatively low ranged damage coming off Rangers. They were more of bunkers for side nodes before PoF. Even Thieves never really had threatening ranged damage because the builds that would try to do that, were just bad.

After PoF though, dangerous ranged projectile DPS entered the scene. They did a lot of buffs to even Thief ranged at this point. Now keep in mind that EVEN during this phase, Ranger & Thief projectiles were never good enough to have any real class representation in MATs or any tournament outside of a very very very select few players who were good enough to be accepted into teams on these classes. The only Ranger spec that has been considered meta in the past 6 years, was the original Boonbeast, which again, had functioned as very bunkery side node with mediocre DPS. And of course Thief has only seen DP Daredevil and Specter for any real meta representation since PoF. Even Deadeye the projectile ranged class, is highly viewed as a massive liability in any higher tiered play.

Ultimately what I'm getting at here, is that ranged projectiles were always "kept in check" to the point that they weren't viable in any serious competitive play. They were never viable, even when they were at their strongest.

Since then ^ projectiles have only BEEN NERFED repeatedly. I'm talking direct nerfs to things like Sic Em and One Wolf Pack, Longbow 1 autos, even Unload & Death's Judgement & everything Deadeye in general, even Thief pistol condis were nerfed. Hell even Gunflame was nerfed. While nerfing projectiles, they also began mega buffing anti-projectile play all over the place on every class. This has been ridiculously unnecessary considering that projectiles were never OP to begin with unless someone was experiencing serious l2p issues.

On 6/19/2023 at 6:41 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

If you want, i can show you how i can upkeep a total of 32 seconds of complete projectileimmunity.

This ^

On 6/19/2023 at 7:24 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

In a real game, the effective reflect uptime will be almost permanent when the Tempest knows what hes doing.

Because your not blowing them one after another like a donkey, as if your trying to impress a Benchmark golem.

You use them as soon as someone switches to a ranged weapon for example, to render this person completly useless for 9 seconds, and to force him to swap to meele again, where you then wait with shockaura ;).

This ^

The larger problem here isn't even just the Ele itself, it's that it also shares all that anti-projectile uptime with its team. It makes everyone around have like 90% anti-projectile uptime when the Ele is good. After this patch on the 27th, it will be 100% easily. Projectiles will be completely obsolete in any competitive play. This is a big issue for the classes who's traits & weapons are at least 50% designed entirely around projectile play. Arenanet is making big mistake here by buffing this anti-projectile instead of nerfing it.

If they continue down this road, Ranger play as example, will need to somehow shift into full melee or full support on a Druid, which both of these setups will be inherently weak and generally useless in any competitive play.

This "balance" patch, is doing the exact opposite of balancing. What's its going to do is create a ridiculous large disparity of difference between the class values of Ele and everything else, as well as rendering projectile play completely obsolete.

This patch will undoubtedly go down as the worst pvp patch that was ever implemented and the one that killed the game for everyone. Mark my words. When games are full of 5x Ele and players can rarely kill each other, what we have left of this community is going to throw their hands up in the air for the final time and leave. We already had a large exodus on June 6th. If they follow through with this patch and those Ele changes, we really will be looking at an actual dead game mode. Not a low population one that people say is dead, but an actual dead game mode.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Asuran.5469]

7 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

This is really the problem. Every time I play a Tempest spec that does not have instant access to 2 reflects, I regret it as soon as a decent ranged player is in the game. Earth overload is just not reactive enough.

 

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The only reason I will defend the auras right now is becuase the amount of burst/AOE damage various specs in the game are spewing out justifies it

oh boo hoo you took some damage, let's justify full invincible so ele doesn't have to take damage

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Asuran.5469 said:

 

oh boo hoo you took some damage, let's justify full invincible so ele doesn't have to take damage

Haha, thats ironic, the avg support has to tank/mitigate/avoid 3x the amount of damage as the avg dps. I bet you never complain when the tempest is on your team. You want to moan about invincible? the only class that ''doesn't have to take damage'' is thief.

 

[Downstate.4697]

They should make unblockable durations of like 5s vs just having stacks. 
 

Too bad about condi reaper though. That kept tempest in check at least

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Haha, thats ironic, the avg support has to tank/mitigate/avoid 3x the amount of damage as the avg dps. I bet you never complain when the tempest is on your team. You want to moan about invincible? the only class that ''doesn't have to take damage'' is thief.

 

isnt that a problem then? the fact that players are willing to use 3x as much effort to kill someone?
doesnt that by default mean supports are broken ? it does to me.
The more tanky the support, the less support they should provide, in gw2 support performance is a joke.
They are giga busted

[Downstate.4697]

35 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

isnt that a problem then? the fact that players are willing to use 3x as much effort to kill someone?
doesnt that by default mean supports are broken ? it does to me.
The more tanky the support, the less support they should provide, in gw2 support performance is a joke.
They are giga busted

Supports would just get farmed if they couldn’t take hits. The only complaint I think people should have left is projectile denial.

[Mythras.2091]

It totally feels like the time when barrier vomitting with heals rendered mid matches a nightmare, as noone died 😄 Anyway i thnik aura share and Earth Shield needs some trimming. Aura share ICD?