Ranked System Needs to be Reworked. It's Terrible

[shion.2084]

Another corollary of this effect is that higher rank players have to play ridiculous quick kill yolo builds to be able to eliminate bobs.  This of course extraordinarily discourages bobs.

I am now playing in my higher tier matches a build I never would have in past seasons.  This is because in past seasons I'd be against other plats who'd exploit its glassness together.  Now with only one or two other names I recognise against me... I just have to avoid those guys.

Last night I got told I should never q again in a match by a duo on my team.  This is because they said I ran off and left him to face 2 people on his own when one was down.  The reason is I was a hit away from death on my super glass with everything on CD, so I would have basically rallied.  Instead I ran to mid, +1,d there... gathered that guy and came back and wiped 3 on the node I'd run from.   I explained to the guy I abandoned that his match up was a loss either if I'd stayed or left.  He was an acceptable loss for the overall win.

Dude informed me he and his duo were much better players and I shouldn't play ranked.  Scores came out and I had 49% team damage, 3 deaths and 39% kills.   I tried to explain to him that if I had not q'd on his team he would have lost half his teams damage and kills... at which point he blocked me.

This is silly, that never would have happened in the old days in a plat game.  And the players in gold can't even understand the change in dynamics that's affecting them.  And I shouldn't be getting away with playing a build that can do that in a ranked match... nor be forced to play that cheese style to carry these guys.

Edited June 23, 2023 by shion.2084

[shion.2084]

Last point on this absurdity... for a win where it was less than a 50 point victory after the match... after doing half the damage, most of the offence and most of the kills.... I got +8.  My loss (say if I'd only done 45% of the team damage would have been huge).

It would have been smarter NOT to risk that game than to play.  And any time a game system actively discourages you from playing it... you have to figure there is something WRONG.

 I didn't need to play more that night... I have enough games for the season and I only need to play one every 3 days to avoid the penalty.  I'd like to play and not be making a poor decision In doing so.

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

The point is, in a low population scenario players who are in the top will have mostly games where the average MMR is lower than theirs.  That means their losses will be disproportionately bigger and their gains smaller for winning.

In a decent population where there are many plat players, half your games your going to be below the MMR average and half of them above... so your gains and losses are going to average out with each other over time.

We're in a unique situation where by having such a wide range of MMRs in your matches, the higher ranked players basically have the odds and system set against them to cause them to drop.

This is because a win will do much less of them than a loss... and they'll only have games like that.  Also they are with such a wide range of players on their team that their individual contributions won't matter on the plus side, more than the poor playing of their team will. So they can't really signficantly influence outcome.

Look: for that to happen these bad players need to be shuffled a specific way, which is unlikely to happen consistently to have this effect, even with the Population being so low. Even if I an wrong on that and you all are right, the problem is still the padding. Like what do you and the 12 people who upvoted the post think? That there are better teammates hiding somewhere? If you loose against 4 low ranked player you shouldn't lose a lot of rating? Like the matchmaker should make exceptions for who exactly? Only the "real" plat players get that matchmaker advantage? "Bad" players should get a disadvantage somehow? How should the matchmaker decide what and who is deserving of what?

Alternative explanation:
A bunch of players who have a 1600+ rating on their main,  probably have a decent number of alts. These 1600+ player q against you with a rating of 1500 or lower so if you lose you lose a lot. If they q with you still get nothin because your personal rating is to high. It is not the rating on your teammates that is artificially to high. It is the rating of your opponents that is artificially to low. Next season make a note of these random people you lose against and check their rating. Maybe their shown skill is a little to high for the low rating that is shown.

It is a padding issue and a match manipulation issue. You guys can reiterate your own experience all you want, it doesn't change the facts.

Edited June 23, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[shion.2084]

26 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Look: for that to happen these bad players need to be shuffled a specific way, which is unlikely to happen consistently to have this effect, even with the Population being so low. Even if I an wrong on that and you all are right, the problem is still the padding. Like what do you and the 12 people who upvoted the post think? That there are better teammates hiding somewhere? If you loose against 4 low ranked player you shouldn't lose a lot of rating? Like the matchmaker should make exceptions for who exactly? Only the "real" plat players get that matchmaker advantage? "Bad" players should get a disadvantage somehow? How should the matchmaker decide what and who is deserving of what?

Alternative explanation:
A bunch of players who have a 1600+ rating on their main,  probably have a decent number of alts. These 1600+ player q against you with a rating of 1500 or lower so if you lose you lose a lot. If they q with you still get nothin because your personal rating is to high. It is not the rating on your teammates that is artificially to high. It is the rating of your opponents that is artificially to low. Next season make a note of these random people you lose against and check their rating. Maybe their shown skill is a little to high for the low rating that is shown.

Well since you've asked reasonable questions I'll answer.... 

The way the match maker works is that it tried to find players within range of the MMR of other players... but if it can't it steadily widens the MMR criteria range to be able to make a match.

So if there are only 3 or 4 plat players... they will get placed on opposite teams and their games will be filled by ever widening MMR margins until you get people 150 MMR lower than them placed in the same matches. 

That's literally how it works.  

Now the silly part is, even though your team has a certain odds (based on MMR calculation) to win... if you happen to be one of the better members in your team you are DISPROPORTIONATELY penalised.   

So what would be more fair is if the win or loss was treated as a team... not whether you happened to be the star player on the team or the dog... because either way its your team that had a certain chance of winning. and that doesn't alter for you depending on which member of that team you were.

Further steps that should be taken...

1) 5 top scores but on a losing team should mean you don't lose rank and that instead the match maker loses rank.
2) loss of rank should be mitigated by the delta in the scores.   Losing by 3 points in a 500 point match should not be treated  the same as losing by 200.
3) in general loss and gain should be based on your teams likelihood to have won or lost... not your individual score in that team but the teams average.
4) until my other recommendations are implemented... duo Q'ers should both be calculated as if they had the higher players MMR.

And yes also having alt accounts in there taking advantage of this with tanked MMR's and during with other pro-players mains should not be allowed. Hence 4 above.

Final note is that... those alt players are not super star players on alts for the majority of these games I'm playing... they're legit bad on the opposing team.   Plus after the match they aren't in duos with the plats.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by shion.2084

[SlayerXX.7138]

16 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

The way the match maker works is that it tried to find players within range of the MMR of other players... but if it can't it steadily widens the MMR criteria range to be able to make a match.

So if there are only 3 or 4 plat players... they will get placed on opposite teams and their games will be filled by ever widening MMR margins until you get people 150 MMR lower than them placed in the same matches. 

That's literally how it works.

And it is called padding. Which is to wide. Something I keep telling you people. Come on man.

16 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

So what would be more fair is if the win or loss was treated as a team... not whether you happened to be the star player on the team or the dog... because either way its your team that had a certain chance of winning. and that doesn't alter for you depending on which member of that team you were.

Hahahahahhah, ha
We are killing PvP not fast enough, put in more coal. All aboard the Cope train next destination total destruction. Not only do you want to keep ruining the experience of other players by matching with people you have no business to match with, you also want them to tank your ratings loss for you. Great idea, with that change we don't have to wait, we can kill PvP in a week! Already upvoted your post, lets go.

There is so much wrong with your self-serving argument, I just wish your the best with it.

Edited June 24, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[shion.2084]

11 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

And it is called padding. You daft kitten. Which is to wide. Something I keep telling you people. Come on man.

Hhahahahahha
hahahahahahahahah
hahahahahah
ha

We are killing PvP not fast enough, put in more coal. All aboard the Cope train next destination total destruction. Not only do you want to keep ruining the experience of other players, you also want them to tank your ratings loss for you. Great idea, with that change we don't have to wait, we can kill PvP in a week! Already upvoted your post, lets go.

There is so much wrong with your self-serving, fart sniffing kitten I just wish your the best with it.

I literally build algorithms that have to deal with people gaming them for a living.   I feel you're f either trolling or not understanding what I'm saying.

So yes... you could call it padding.  But that has nothing to do with my point.  I'm not saying they don't pad... I'm explaining the implications of it in the context of how the rating system works.

If your team has a certain chance to win... then certain members of that team shouldn't get a larger percentage win or loss depending on how your team does.   See the problem with the application of the Gliko system is that it's meant to be applied to a person competing or the same team competing.  But they've conflated ideas.  They want to individually rank you, but based on your teams outcome... and then make you have disproportionate responsibility for that....

ugh why do I bother...

Edited June 23, 2023 by shion.2084

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

  I tried to explain to him that if I had not q'd on his team he would have lost half his teams damage and kills... at which point he blocked me.

Lmao why do they get so mad 😭😭

Its always the people not doing anything with the biggest mouths

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

I literally build algorithms that have to deal with people gaming them for a living.   I feel you're f either trolling or not understanding what I'm saying.

Then your self-serving bias is clouding your judgment or you do a kitten job.

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

So yes... you could call it padding.  But that has nothing to do with my point.  I'm not saying they don't pad... I'm explaining the implications of it in the context of how the rating system works.

In a way to benefit yourself at the cost of most players. I do get your point. If you were worth a single cent you would know the real answer is to avoid these pairing in the first place. You know these lower tier players don't need you to play, you need them. If you ever in your life coded something more challenging then Hell World you should know how this distribution looks. 

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

They want to individually rank you, but based on your teams outcome... and then make you have disproportionate responsibility for that....

You did go on and on about how you are the sole carry in these situation and the lower player are helpless. Yet they should take full responsibility in the match. What it is it now? Are they responsible or not? Do you stay true to your self-serving argumentation or are you decent at what you do. Both can't be true at the same time.

Edited June 23, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@SlayerXX.7138

I've got just one more thing to toss into this thread in testimony to what I was explaining to you about how NA games look nowadays and how it effects rating gains/losses.

This is what I was talking about having to carry Bobs. This happened to me earlier today. I am the RED Druid: 

https://imgur.com/MsX1rT9

The match quality is truly god awful in low population NA for the plat+ player. It does nothing but absolutely punish you by stacking Bobs on your back.

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

@Trevor Boyer.6524Great example why padding is such a bi problem.

Edited June 26, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[shion.2084]

14 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@SlayerXX.7138

I've got just one more thing to toss into this thread in testimony to what I was explaining to you about how NA games look nowadays and how it effects rating gains/losses.

This is what I was talking about having to carry Bobs. This happened to me earlier today. I am the RED Druid: 

https://imgur.com/MsX1rT9

The match quality is truly god awful in low population NA for the plat+ player. It does nothing but absolutely punish you by stacking Bobs on your back.

 

See!

One of my items on the list of reform is that

"Anyone getting 5 top scores does not lose rank.  Instead Anets match maker loses rank"