6/27 Druid Changes Discussion - Come to find out, it's not QUITE as bad as we thought

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Ok boys, here are a few key videos with some statements & findings that I wanted to share:

1. The crux of the problem: GW2 Druid PvE changes june 27 patch few problems - Twitch
2. How it has effected WvW & PvP: GW2 Druid WvW PvP discussion post june 27th patch - Twitch
3. A new direction for PvE Druid: GW2 New Heal Druid Method post june 27 patch - Twitch

For those upset about how Heal/Alac Druid has been changed, I really wanted to share the 3rd short video. Keep in mind that method is avoiding the problem of CA Kit being cycled for Alacrity and not being saved for burst heal, by creating a rotation that is actually 100% constant burst heal that doesn't end.

~ Enjoy

Edited June 29, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Aveneo.2068]

I don't understand why ANet had to turn "Ancient Seeds" to "Eclipse". The new name makes no sense and these slight offensive effects make no sense to me either. I'd much prefer they kept "Ancient Seeds" and give it a slight buff instead (like giving the Druid a few seconds of Regen).

Heck, not even the new name "Eclipse" makes any sense. "Ancient Seeds" looked and felt like a perfect skill for a Druid with vines shooting out of the ground to keep an enemy at bay for a a little while. Maybe not overly usefull in PvP/WvW but I really loved the entangling effect when used with my Longbow #4. Now that is gone apparently 😟

[Dadnir.5038]

31 minutes ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

Heck, not even the new name "Eclipse" makes any sense

For something "celestial", the term "eclipse" is more fitting than the term "ancient seed". That said, the way GW2 Druid specialization have been designed hardly make sense when you look at what "Druids" are in GW. So maybe, everything is nonsensical.

[Aveneo.2068]

1 minute ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

For something "celestial", the term "eclipse" is more fitting than the term "ancient seed". That said, the way GW2 Druid specialization have been designed hardly make sense when you look at what "Druids" are in GW. So maybe, everything is nonsensical.

Sorry, but I see little celestial meaning behind an eclipse (moon moving in front of the sun). At least "ancient seed" to me made sense in terms of being a druid; what with nature and all. But to each their own I guess.

I just find the name to be poorly chosen and the effects even more poorly designed. So now we have 3 GM traits for Druis that are pretty much useless instead of 2.

Additionally "Natural Stride" was also nerfed. Originally it reduced the duration of movement-impairing conditions while also increasing your movement speed by 33% as long as you had no movement impairing conditions. Now they call it "Natural Balance" and removed everything it originally did for a temporary 10% dmg reduction and 10% dmg increase upon entering you celestial avatar (lasting 10s).

So yeah, it looks like they completely gutted the Druid trait-line.

😒

[LughLongArm.5460]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ok boys, here are a few key videos with some statements & findings that I wanted to share:

1. The crux of the problem: GW2 Druid PvE changes june 27 patch few problems - Twitch
2. How it has effected WvW & PvP: GW2 Druid WvW PvP discussion post june 27th patch - Twitch
3. A new direction for PvE Druid: GW2 New Heal Druid Method post june 27 patch - Twitch

For those upset about how Heal/Alac Druid has been changed, I really wanted to share the 3rd short video.

~ Enjoy

Thanx for the info, there are definitely many upsides and interesting ideas coming with recent changes, but still I feel some things are confusing with the overall design goals for the druid.  

1) PVE - From what I understand the alacrity changes were made in order to give the druid for flexibility in terms of choosing utility skills and also to make the rotations less sweaty. Based on your suggested build, it seems you still have to use 2 spirits and rotations are even sweatier and harder to pull off.  I think the alacrity boon should be attached to direct healing regardless if the the druid is in CA or not. 

2) Confused about Lingering Light - The idea to is to give the druid rapid access to CA but in most game mods CA CD is 10 sec, with alacrity is like 7.5 sec. It is already a challenge to make sure you regen all the AF in 7.5 so its probably will be hard to produce value out of this trait. Lingering Light theoretically could be useful in PVP(where CA cd is 20 sec). I don't think traits should be designed in order to optimize game modes splits. What actually should be done? Lingering Light should give the ability of generating astral force by healing others while in CA form, meaning that as long as you heal allies, you can maintain CA form. This will create a different kind of playstyle for druids(and perhaps will give glyphs more room to shine).

3)Staff - Without the the dedicated trait, I feel this loved weapon is lacking, I really loved primal echos and the 20% CD reduction and I see no reason to take it away. If they don't want the staff daze, they can move it to other places, it would be cool for example if Natural stride would do for the staff what Light on your feet is doing for SB, like modify the staff skills a bit so it could apply some condi pressure or something like that. 

4)Glypsh+Verdant Etching - it is still quite disappointing, glyph elite - great, glyph stun break - great, the rest are mostly pointless. With the Lingering Light suggested concept this could be changed.  

Edited June 29, 2023 by LughLongArm.5460

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

1 hour ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

I don't understand why ANet had to turn "Ancient Seeds" to "Eclipse". The new name makes no sense and these slight offensive effects make no sense to me either. I'd much prefer they kept "Ancient Seeds" and give it a slight buff instead (like giving the Druid a few seconds of Regen).

Heck, not even the new name "Eclipse" makes any sense. "Ancient Seeds" looked and felt like a perfect skill for a Druid with vines shooting out of the ground to keep an enemy at bay for a a little while. Maybe not overly usefull in PvP/WvW but I really loved the entangling effect when used with my Longbow #4. Now that is gone apparently 😟

"Ancient Seeds" was hugely useful in WvW, it is one of the things many players even complained about on the class. Movement is king in WvW and the vines ability to continually apply immobilize was very strong.

As for the new skill names, I've seen a few complaints about them, I think they fit just fine. Druids aren't only about leaves, roots, and earth. They're also about the sun, moon, and stars. "Eclipse" fits with the solar/lunar celestial theme perfectly.

From the in-game description of Druids:

"The stars, earth, and sky above will heal us."

"Druids utilize the power of nature and the stars above to heal their allies, using glyph skills to channel powerful boons and protective utilities. By generating your astral force, you can channel your Celestial Avatar form."

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Remus Darkblight.1673
Removed hyperlinks from quoted description

[Beddo.1907]

2 hours ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

I'd much prefer they kept "Ancient Seeds" and give it a slight buff instead

My man, they removed it cause it was annoying to play against and would get nerfed rather than buffed.

[Aveneo.2068]

23 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

"Ancient Seeds" was hugely useful in WvW, it is one of the things many players even complained about on the class. Movement is king in WvW and the vines ability to continually apply immobilize was very strong.

As for the new skill names, I've seen a few complaints about them, I think they fit just fine. Druids aren't only about leaves, roots, and earth. They're also about the sun, moon, and stars. "Eclipse" fits with the solar/lunar celestial theme perfectly.

From the in-game description of Druids:

"The stars, earth, and sky above will heal us."

"Druids utilize the power of nature and the stars above to heal their allies, using glyph skills to channel powerful boons and protective utilities. By generating your astral force, you can channel your Celestial Avatar form."

 

I doubt that "Ancient Seeds" was useful at all in WvW with everyone and their grandma running stability. Additionally it also wasn't continually applying immobile; only once per 10s and only then if it was preceded by a stun/daze/knockdown/launch. "Natural Stride" only gave you 33% movement speed if you weren't affected by movement impairing effects; of which you get tons in WvW. 

As for the name of the trait, I just find it lazy and uninspiring. But it's fine if ANet wants to be lazy and uninspiring. It's not like they've been innovating these past years anyways.

 

[Aveneo.2068]

7 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

My man, they removed it cause it was annoying to play against and would get nerfed rather than buffed.

So Rangers had some useful tricks so they needed to get nerfed into the ground... My man, did they also nerf the Thief class with their constant invis builds? Those are even more annoying to play against. 😉

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

2 minutes ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

I doubt that "Ancient Seeds" was useful at all in WvW with everyone and their grandma running stability. Additionally it also wasn't continually applying immobile; only once per 10s and only then if it was preceded by a stun/daze/knockdown/launch. "Natural Stride" only gave you 33% movement speed if you weren't affected by movement impairing effects; of which you get tons in WvW. 

As for the name of the trait, I just find it lazy and uninspiring. But it's fine if ANet wants to be lazy and uninspiring. It's not like they've been innovating these past years anyways.

 

Doubt all you like, rightly or wrongly it was absolutely frequently complained about. When you do manage to get through opponents stability immobilizing them is invaluable towards securing the kill. It was more complained about as part of roaming small-scale where it was integral to stealth trappers.

Call the trait naming lazy or uninspired if you like, that is your subjective opinion. Your initial argument was that it made no sense which I would dispute. Uninspiring or not, it makes sense and is at least on theme.

[Aveneo.2068]

9 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Doubt all you like, rightly or wrongly it was absolutely frequently complained about. When you do manage to get through opponents stability immobilizing them is invaluable towards securing the kill. It was more complained about as part of roaming small-scale where it was integral to stealth trappers.

Call the trait naming lazy or uninspired if you like, that is your subjective opinion. Your initial argument was that it made no sense which I would dispute. Uninspiring or not, it makes sense and is at least on theme.

Well ofcourse it was complained about. Every time someone loses they whine and moan on these forums. It's why I hardly visit this forum anymore.

I also remember that Ranger was trash for years, to the point of where you just got kicked from groups all the time. Then finally Rangers became somewhat viable after years of abuse only to get nerfed into the ground again. 

Guess our new 'balance' team consists of Thief-mains again. Go figure... Ah well, I hardly play this game. Mostly do my dailies and some PvE when I have time. It just sucks that Rangers are always the first (and often only) class to get nerfed all the time.

Anyways, I said what I came here to say so I'm done with these forums for the next couple of months.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

4 minutes ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

Well ofcourse it was complained about. Every time someone loses they whine and moan on these forums. It's why I hardly visit this forum anymore.

The irony is not lost on me.

5 minutes ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

I also remember that Ranger was trash for years, to the point of where you just got kicked from groups all the time. Then finally Rangers became somewhat viable after years of abuse only to get nerfed into the ground again. 

They are still fine, they will likely still excel in the small-scale role in WvW. The change to untamed being able to reset unleashed ambush on weapon swap has potential for DPS, but it is still early days. I never played support much before so I can't really comment on that side of things. Will also have to see how the changes with using all weapons goes too. Plenty to look forward to.

8 minutes ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

Guess our new 'balance' team consists of Thief-mains again. Go figure... Ah well, I hardly play this game. Mostly do my dailies and some PvE when I have time. It just sucks that Rangers are always the first (and often only) class to get nerfed all the time.

Anyways, I said what I came here to say so I'm done with these forums for the next couple of months.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[Endaris.1452]

34 minutes ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

I doubt that "Ancient Seeds" was useful at all in WvW with everyone and their grandma running stability. Additionally it also wasn't continually applying immobile; only once per 10s and only then if it was preceded by a stun/daze/knockdown/launch.

Stability does not prevent immobilize from working, Resistance does which is comparatively more scarce.
This is precisely why zerg ranger builds have brought immobilize to zergs for years, because you could isolate out some targets, even with condi clear if you brought enough immob.

The CC interaction is no problem because the problem with entangle was always that people could just run out of where the vine was spawning and avoid the immobilizing effect like that. If you stunned them before though, the vine would properly lock them down. So only in-built what you mostly wanted to do anyway.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Endaris.1452

[LughLongArm.5460]

I think the "Ancient Seeds" change is quite solid, it was very inconsistent, one trick pony, 0 skill, super carry type of a trait. Useful up to kitten level annoying in some 1vs1 situation and completely useless in others.  In 1vs X situation you can't even control the target, it's just there going on in the background doing work , very bad design. The new trait is much more flexible and consistent across many types of situations, sure it doesn't have situational over performing spikes but its a better trait overall. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by LughLongArm.5460

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

14 minutes ago, LughLongArm.5460 said:

I think the "Ancient Seeds" change is quite solid, it was very inconsistent, one trick pony, 0 skill, super carry type of a trait. Useful up to kitten level annoying in some 1vs1 situation and completely useless in others.

Ancient Seeds was the one thing allowing Druid to still function in pvp and wvw roaming in 1v1 situation. Without it, 2x things are a problem: 1) You can't keep very aggressive builds off you long enough to land better counter-offensive bursts. 2) This also means you take significantly more damage. And even with Ancient Seeds, Druid has been considered one of the bottom barrel competitive classes for years now. Ancient Seeds may have been "annoying" but it wasn't "OP" and in fact, Druid needed it. They really need to make sure that if they remove traits that classes need, that those traits are replaced with something that brings as much value as the old trait that was removed.

100% guarantee you in competitive modes, the loss of Ancient Seeds is far more detrimental to Druid build structures than any of the new traits were helpful.

What they should do, is turn Eclipse back int Ancient Seeds. Honestly Eclipse is an incredibly insufficient design from the ground up. They would need to buff the condis on Eclipse to a great degree for any of that to be useful in in wvw, pvp, or even pve.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[LughLongArm.5460]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ancient Seeds was the one thing allowing Druid to still function in pvp and wvw roaming in 1v1 situation. Without it, 2x things are a problem: 1) You can't keep very aggressive builds off you long enough to land better counter-offensive bursts. 2) This also means you take significantly more damage.

100% guarantee you in competitive modes, the loss of Ancient Seeds is far more detrimental to Druid build structures than any of the new traits were helpful.

What they should do, is turn Eclipse back int Ancient Seeds. Honestly Eclipse is an incredibly insufficient design from the ground up. They would need to buff the condis on Eclipse to a great degree for any of that to be useful in in wvw, pvp, or even pve.

Hi, not sure you are right, the theory craft process has only begun. with the new changes to NM, sword and CA might applications, you can definitely make new strong builds that will not relay on the brokenness of  Ancient Seeds. I already tested a poison master build that performed quite nicely and today I will test power druid build. I think NM is very interesting for druids. The chill application of CA 4 is also quite interesting for team fights. Not everything is about big big damage. 

[Aveneo.2068]

30 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

The irony is not lost on me.

False irony as I wasn't complaining because I 'lost' to anyone like those spasm-kiddies do every time they lose a fight in WvW. I'm complaining about the nerfs in general; not that I lost any fight. Staff was a solid choice that gave some added mobility, speed, and control to a class that was sorely lacking in those aspects. Now it pretty much lost both speed and control with mobility being questionable at best as Staff #3 never got its evade frames back.

I just came to expect that Ranger (or in this case the Druid traitline) gets nerfed once again as usual while the other classes get buffs. That's usually how it went in the past and how it goes in the future as ANet seems to hate Rangers for some reason.

So yeah, I'll just stick to PvE and zergs as that's apparently where ANet wants us. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 minutes ago, LughLongArm.5460 said:

Hi, not sure you are right, the theory craft process has only begun.

I see where you're coming from.

But some of us have played GW2 for 11 years, 30,000 pvp games, and countless thousands of hours in wvw. <- For the ones of us who have experience like this, after a patch drops, we are able to figure out in about 24 hours, what it takes most people to figure out in a month.

The Arenanet team would be wise to at least consider what I've stated here in this thread and in the short video links.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

3 minutes ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

False irony as I wasn't complaining because I 'lost' to anyone like those spasm-kiddies do every time they lose a fight in WvW. I'm complaining about the nerfs in general; not that I lost any fight. Staff was a solid choice that gave some added mobility, speed, and control to a class that was sorely lacking in those aspects. Now it pretty much lost both speed and control with mobility being questionable at best as Staff #3 never got its evade frames back.

You were whining and moaning on the forum about the people whining and moaning on the forum. Please understand it was all in good humour. The forum is unfortunately a very negatively biased microcosm of the community.

5 minutes ago, Aveneo.2068 said:

So yeah, I'll just stick to PvE and zergs as that's apparently where ANet wants us. 

Which is annoying because zergs is one of the places Ranger is not so great (besides support Druid). Will be interesting to see if any of the current and upcoming changes have any impact on that.

[LughLongArm.5460]

10 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I see where you're coming from.

But some of us have played GW2 for 11 years, 30,000 pvp games, and countless thousands of hours in wvw. <- For the ones of us who have experience like this, after a patch drops, we are able to figure out in about 24 hours, what it takes most people to figure out in a month.

The Arenanet team would be wise to at least consider what I've stated here in this thread and in the short video links.

Could be and yet this thread is all about a some second considerations to statements you have done just yesterday, so defiantly there is the potential for some additional reevaluations. I play GW2 since lunch, not consistently and not to the amount you play, but I remember coming up with the power staff dazer build years before it got popular by top tier players. I even remember playing version of the build with the soldier rune and the caviler amulet 🙂 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

21 minutes ago, LughLongArm.5460 said:

Could be and yet this thread is all about a some second considerations to statements you have done just yesterday

Oh I still stand by every statement I've made. You'll find no contradictions.

What that 3rd video is demonstrating is the one method I was able to find that is at least workable and functional to use. In no way does it play as smoothly or accurately as Heal/Alac Druid before 6/27. 

[LughLongArm.5460]

5 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Oh I still stand by every statement I've made. You'll find no contradictions.

What that 3rd video is demonstrating is the one method I was able to find that is at least workable and functional to use. In no way does it play as smoothly or accurately as Heal/Alac Druid before 6/27. 

Got it. Appreciate your takes nevertheless. Hopefully it's part one and we will see more changes with the upcoming expansion. I also have some issues with the patch(which I have listed here) but when it comes to ancient seeds, I'm actually fine with this change. 

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ok boys, here are a few key videos with some statements & findings that I wanted to share:

1. The crux of the problem: GW2 Druid PvE changes june 27 patch few problems - Twitch
2. How it has effected WvW & PvP: GW2 Druid WvW PvP discussion post june 27th patch - Twitch
3. A new direction for PvE Druid: GW2 New Heal Druid Method post june 27 patch - Twitch

For those upset about how Heal/Alac Druid has been changed, I really wanted to share the 3rd short video. Keep in mind that method is avoiding the problem of CA Kit being cycled for Alacrity and not being saved for burst heal, by creating a rotation that is actually 100% constant burst heal that doesn't end.

~ Enjoy

I have 1 massive critique of the pve druid build- it's using Beastmastery for the intended to be lost effect of 20% command CDR. That's it.

Forcing your healer to take a self heal just to maintain their boon ON THEMSELF should not be the play either.

There is a significantly more simple solution that also allows alac dps druid (dps druid is very potent right now) to exist as well- just increase the alac duration. While they're add it, add more might to CA4/5. It's a bit of a struggle to upkeep some of these important boons right now, or you burn a bunch of skills for 1 of them (namely prot).

[BonzaiPlatypus.7091]

26 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Forcing your healer to take a self heal just to maintain their boon ON THEMSELF should not be the play either.

There is a significantly more simple solution that also allows alac dps druid (dps druid is very potent right now) to exist as well- just increase the alac duration.

It's great that there are people finding solutions here. This is the crux of it though.

Ideally, it seems to me like there should be breathing room baked into key boon application. It should be trivial for most people to maintain Alac or Quickness with 100% boon duration and it should be possible for a skilled player and tight group to maintain it with considerably less.

This allows room for other stats to reward players for getting good at that build - pump out just a little more dps or have a little more survivability. It also gives newbies a place to start while still providing what is expected of their role. As you get better and better, you can drop concentration off a piece of gear here and there until you hit a sweet spot. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

~ edit

Weird double post.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524