About the changes on Runes

[jason.1083]

Before this seems like another discussion on the Relic feature being horrible and pay to win, making myself clear, it's not. 

I was thinking that since Anet is gonna rework the runes anyway, maybe they should take the time and actually balance some of the 6th tier bonuses we currently have,and then implement them into the Relics. As of now there are many of them that are totally redundant and completely outclassed, I know some runes will ofcourse work better than others with certain builds because they just synergize better, but we have a lot of them that will underperform regardless of the build/profflfesion using them. 

To me the Relics sound good, it's nice to be able to choose your 6th tier rune bonus without giving up the stats that will work best for you. But it would be nice to have all of them actually be relevant. 

I'll admit it what I have in mind is the Rune of the Holosmith, I know very well it's been discussed before in it's own threads but this seems like a great time to act upon something like this. I was so excited to see that I can keep my Power-Boon Duration stats and have the laser disc, but then I remembered that it's garbage. Obviously there are other runes with simmilar issues I'm sure other people have been through the same thoughts on other runes. 

Keeping the bonuses as they are means that some Relics will just be universally worst than others. And thus no one will pick them. 

So all I'm hoping for is for Anet to take the time and care it needs to balance what we will soon call relics and make sure they will all be relevant. 

[jason.1083]

2 minutes ago, skillze.7689 said:

So how do you define removing funtionality from existing items then locking those items behind an expansion paywall? The people that get hit the hardest are the ones that have supported this game the longest due to Arenanet saying that legendaires are safe from any gear grind.

You can shill for Arenanet all you like but you cannot say what they're trying to do isnt P2W.

Let me rephrase then,

This is not a post where I'm gonna cry about the Relic feature being pay to win, I'm just gonna discuss changes that I personally think they should be made. 

 

At no point I said that implementing an existing feature behind a paywall is good. 

Hope that's better. 

[Jhule.7230]

2 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

Let me rephrase then,

This is not a post where I'm gonna cry about the Relic feature being pay to win, I'm just gonna discuss changes that I personally think they should be made.

You literally said in your first post it isn't pay to win, you cannot change the subject when its your first comment. That's not how it works.

How about you answer my question rather than changing your question!

Edited July 6, 2023 by skillze.7689

[Geralt.7519]

15 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

Keeping the bonuses as they are means that some Relics will just be universally worst than others. And thus no one will pick them.

Balancing is a cat and mouse game between players and devs, always has been in every MMO and it always will.

No matter how hard devs try to balance stuff, players will always find what the most optimal stuff is and ignore the rest, that's not to say devs shouldn't even try but if you really believe players won't find what's optimal in any case, you'll be disappointed.

 

 

[jason.1083]

Just now, Geralt.7519 said:

Balancing is a cat and mouse game between players and devs, always has been in every MMO and it always will.

No matter how hard devs try to balance stuff, players will always find what the most optimal stuff is and ignore the rest, that's not to say devs shouldn't even try but if you really believe players won't find what's optimal in any case, you'll be disappointed.

 

 

Well I don't expect the Relic system to be as balanced as a game of chess, but having Relics that will be totally useless in every situation for any player sounds bad. 

[idpersona.3810]

5 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

Well I don't expect the Relic system to be as balanced as a game of chess, but having Relics that will be totally useless in every situation for any player sounds bad. 

I agree with the idea of balancing them, but this outcome is pretty certain. There will be relics no one uses. Those will probably be the ones we get easily in game. So maybe they'll see some use until as soon as we obtain a better one.

[jason.1083]

8 minutes ago, skillze.7689 said:

You literally said in your first post it isn't pay to win, you cannot change the subject when its your first comment. That's not how it works.

How about you answer my question rather than changing your question!

The awnser to your question is that it's bad putting pay walls in the game, and the more of them the worst, obviously I understand that some things gotta have their price, I don't expect Anet to start handing out all of their expansions for free. All I said is that I'm not gonna complain about it here, and that I like the idea, from the looks of it it's gonna be as vertical of a progression as the runes currently are, so I don't see an issue with that. 

Overall the only bad thing is how there implementing this, and ofcourse it would be better for them to give this kind of stuff to f2p accounts as well, same goes for at least the Raptor mount. 

[Geralt.7519]

7 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

Well I don't expect the Relic system to be as balanced as a game of chess, but having Relics that will be totally useless in every situation for any player sounds bad. 

We have no idea yet what types of relics will be in the game, they said some will cover current popular runes, others will be changed, nowhere they said relics will be a carbon copy of what runes are today, you can't say they're useless before you actually see them.

[jason.1083]

1 minute ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I agree with the idea of balancing them, but this outcome is pretty certain. There will be relics no one uses. Those will probably be the ones we get easily in game. So maybe they'll see some use until as soon as we obtain a better one.

That's exactly what I mean, it look inevitable as it is with the current Rune system, and it would be nice to fix that, especially since Relics will only have 1 balancing factor, because they only provide 1 effect. 

[jason.1083]

2 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

We have no idea yet what types of relics will be in the game, they said some will cover current popular runes, others will be changed, nowhere they said relics will be a carbon copy of what runes are today, you can't say they're useless before you actually see them.

That's what I'm counting on, I just don't see Anet bothering balancing them, and I really want to see all of them be relevant enough, at least to the point where they won't be totally useless. 

[Linken.6345]

30 minutes ago, skillze.7689 said:

So how do you define removing funtionality from existing items then locking those items behind an expansion paywall? The people that get hit the hardest are the ones that have supported this game the longest due to Arenanet saying that legendaires are safe from any gear grind.

You can shill for Arenanet all you like but you cannot say what they're trying to do isnt P2W.

Its not locked behind and expansion, everyone get the relics.

They did say that new relics will be behind the expansion tho.

 

2 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

I really want to see all of them be relevant enough, at least to the point where they won't be totally useless. 

 

This is a pipedream and it will never become a reality.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Linken.6345

[jason.1083]

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

Its not locked behind and expansion, everyone get the relics.

They did say that new relics will be behind the expansion tho.

Why did I not remember that?

I believe it and I recall reading it, I'm just questioning myself not remembering, makes sense though 

[Jhule.7230]

10 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

All I said is that I'm not gonna complain about it here, and that I like the idea, from the looks of it it's gonna be as vertical of a progression as the runes currently are, so I don't see an issue with that. 

Overall the only bad thing is how there implementing this, and ofcourse it would be better for them to give this kind of stuff to f2p accounts as well, same goes for at least the Raptor mount. 

That's fine if you aren't going to complain, but I'm not going to say that and can complain as much as I want about the P2W feature they're trying to implement. As it stands they should of never tried this tactic in the first place as it erode's trust that has been established by Arenanet's own written/verbal contract.

Edited July 6, 2023 by skillze.7689

[idpersona.3810]

1 minute ago, skillze.7689 said:

That's fine if you aren't going to complain, but I'm not going to say that and can complain as much as I want about the P2W feature they're trying to implement. As it stands they should of never tried this tactic in the first place as it erode's trust that has been established by Arenanet's own/written verbal contract.

Just pointing out that this is off topic for this thread. OP specifically said they didn't want to dwell on that aspect of the discussion, so it's more than a bit rude to keep trying to steer this thread in that direction.

 

3 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

Why did I not remember that?

I believe it and I recall reading it, I'm just questioning myself not remembering, makes sense though 

I seem to remember that too, but looking quickly I couldn't find it. Overall I like the idea they're going for. I think we need to see the actual implementation of it. Because they're initial talking points on relics rolling out leave a lot to be desired.

[Geralt.7519]

1 minute ago, jason.1083 said:

Why did I not remember that?

I believe it and I recall reading it, I'm just questioning myself not remembering, makes sense though 

Because relic is a core change like changes to classes, they're applied to everyone regardless of what xpac you have, if it was so easy to avoid it just by not buying the xpac, do you really think we legendary crafter would be so up in arms about it?

[Linken.6345]

5 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Just pointing out that this is off topic for this thread. OP specifically said they didn't want to dwell on that aspect of the discussion, so it's more than a bit rude to keep trying to steer this thread in that direction.

 

I seem to remember that too, but looking quickly I couldn't find it. Overall I like the idea they're going for. I think we need to see the actual implementation of it. Because they're initial talking points on relics rolling out leave a lot to be desired.

At Launch: Introducing Relics

Starting on August 22, everyone’s build will include a relic slot that becomes usable at level 60. Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership will cover the functionality of popular sixth-tier rune bonuses.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/combat-in-guild-wars-2-secrets-of-the-obscure/

Edit 

And for the other statment from the same page

Guild Wars 2: Secrets of the Obscure owners can look forward to expansion-exclusive relics as well—some of these will become available at launch, with others to follow in subsequent releases.

@skillze.7689

How is it pay to win exactly?

Edited July 6, 2023 by Linken.6345

[jason.1083]

2 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Because relic is a core change like changes to classes, they're applied to everyone regardless of what xpac you have, if it was so easy to avoid it just by not buying the xpac, do you really think we legendary crafter would be so up in arms about it?

Correct, although from what I understanding you'll get to keep the normal Legendary Runes as you have them, with a normal 6th bonus to compensate, and then probably just get the relic you need, I can't imagine them being expensive in any way, then later they may add a legendary relic, I understand where you coming from, but Idk if it's gonna be that bad. 

[Jhule.7230]

4 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

And for the other statment from the same page

Guild Wars 2: Secrets of the Obscure owners can look forward to expansion-exclusive relics as well—some of these will become available at launch, with others to follow in subsequent releases.

@skillze.7689

How is it pay to win exactly?

Are you trying to get me to validate your own post showing that relics are locked behind a paywall because some are expansion specfic, can you elaborate on the quote please?

[Linken.6345]

2 minutes ago, skillze.7689 said:

Are you trying to get me to validate your own post showing that relics are locked behind a paywall because some are expansion specfic, can you elaborate on the quote please?

Starting on August 22, everyone’s build will include a relic slot that becomes usable at level 60. Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership will cover the functionality of popular sixth-tier rune bonuses.

New stats have always been locked behind expansions you cant get, trailblazer without hot, grieving without pof and dragon without end of dragons as an examples so why should relics be any different?

Edited July 6, 2023 by Linken.6345

[Jhule.7230]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

Starting on August 22, everyone’s build will include a relic slot that becomes usable at level 60. Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership will cover the functionality of popular sixth-tier rune bonuses.

New stats have always been locked behind expansions you cant get dragon without end of dragons as an example so why should relics be any different?

But those changes never effected legendary equipment. These do!

[Linken.6345]

Just now, skillze.7689 said:

But those changes never effected legendary equipment. These do!

Still not pay to win tho.

Or locked behind the expansion.

[idpersona.3810]

2 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

Correct, although from what I understanding you'll get to keep the normal Legendary Runes as you have them, with a normal 6th bonus to compensate, and then probably just get the relic you need, I can't imagine them being expensive in any way, then later they may add a legendary relic, I understand where you coming from, but Idk if it's gonna be that bad. 

Being worse off after launch compared to before is a bad thing, even if some people decide it falls into the category of not-that-bad. But that tangent also seems like it's been more than discussed in other threads.

Like I said, I have optimistic hopes that they'll do some creative and good for the game things with the new system. I think the majority of the issue is with the plan (or lack thereof) on rolling it out.

 

8 minutes ago, skillze.7689 said:

That's their opinion an I'm entitled to mine, regardless of the thread its posted to because its still relevant to the topic. Just because they arent choosing to speak against the change doesnt invalided my post or their opinion.

You are (obviously) entitled to your own opinion. But this thread isn't the place to derail the balancing relic discussion the OP was seeming to want to have.

56 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

Before this seems like another discussion on the Relic feature being horrible and pay to win, making myself clear, it's not.

I read this as OP stating this wasn't to be another discussion on whether or not relics are horrible and p2w. Not that relics aren't p2w, but that this wasn't a thread about that.
Should be easy enough to just respect that and stay on the topic brought up.

[Jhule.7230]

4 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Still not pay to win tho.

Or locked behind the expansion.

Of course it is, because they are locking those functions out of everyones builds and changing how legendary runes operate and making some expansion specific. Thats pay2win. You can do all content on just berserker gear and dont need any other things to do it but when you start putting better items behind expansions its p2w

Edited July 6, 2023 by skillze.7689

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, jason.1083 said:

I was thinking that since Anet is gonna rework the runes anyway, maybe they should take the time and actually balance some of the 6th tier bonuses we currently have,and then implement them into the Relics.

That's pretty much what they intend to do:

Quote

Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership will cover the functionality of popular sixth-tier rune bonuses. For example, the Relic of the Trooper’s effect is identical to the previous sixth-tier Trooper rune effect: “Remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill.” Other core relics have an updated effect compared to the sixth-tier rune they used to be associated with, like the Relic of the Thief: “Upon striking an enemy with a weapon skill that has a cooldown or resource cost, gain 1% strike damage for 6 seconds, up to a maximum of 5 stacks, and refresh duration of all stacks to 6 seconds.”

 

As for being worried that "some will be used and others won't", this is basically bound to happen anyways.

[jason.1083]

1 minute ago, skillze.7689 said:

No one is "derailing" a thread when in his first comment he states "It's not p2w"

In my first comment I stated that I'm not going to talk about it, and I didn't, at least not until I was prompted to do so. 

You might interprete it that way because you're clearly not fond of this change, I get that but the thread is clearly meant to avoid that subject, because it has already been, and still is discussed in other threads, it's that simple.